I present facts. It’s a fact that Brady has not won a SB w/o Charlie Weis, it’s a fact that the Pats defense shut down one of the greatest offenses in NFL History to win SB XXXVI. It’s a fact that JR Redmond moved the ball down the field and made a big play getting out of bounds. I also don't like to pin wins and losses solely on the QB. There’s way too much that happens in a game that makes the difference in wins and losses to pin them on one player. There’s game planning, play calling, blocking, tackling, making adjustments, not turning the ball over on offense and causing turnovers on defense, injuries, route running and communication among many other things that cause teams to win or lose. It’s true that Manning has played with some great players, but when you call Garcon, Collie, Gonzalez and Brown “elite talent” that’s where I have a problem with it. Those guys are average to slightly above average players (in Collie’s case) that get the most out of playing with Manning. He was averaging 4 rec/gm at 53.2 yds/gm and 12.4 ypc in the 2 seasons before Manning got there. That is not “on his way to elite status”. In Manning’s rookie season he avg 5 rec/gm 64.6 yds/gm and 13.2 ypc – already a jump up. And that was before they had an opportunity to have a full off season together. If you can’t see that he went to elite status by playing with Manning then I don’t know what to tell you. The defense is so overrated that w/o them Brady hasn’t won a SB. That “overrated” defense nearly single handedly won them their first SB against one of the top offenses in NFL History and shut down the Eagles in the 3rd only giving up 14 points until there was 1:55 left in the game. The 2007 defense was not the same as the 2001, 2003 and 2004 defenses. Even so, w/o the 2007 defenses’ help they don’t even get to the Super Bowl after Brady’s awful performance in the AFCCG. Again, there’s a difference between the 2001, 2003, 2004 defenses and the one’s he had later in the decade. In 6 of the 9 games that the Patriots won from 2001-2004 the defense allowed 17 points or less. Belichick took a Browns team to the playoffs in 1994 before the team went into turmoil with Art Modell looking to move the team out of Cleveland - which he finally announced during the 1995 season which tore the team apart. Prior to that they had lost two games to two top teams (Bills and Lions) but the rumblings of the team leaving wore them out. Manning has taken 3 different coaches to the playoffs. Did he win the SB? There’s a difference between Reg season play and postseason right? He played terrible in the AFCCG and only led the Pats to 14 points in the SB when they averaged well over 30. Welker was never an afterthought w/ Moss on the field. Defenses did not want to get beat by Welker, but couldn’t stop him. Brees did not look like he was going to be a quality NFL QB going into the 2004 draft. In 2002 when they improved to 8-8 from 5-12 the running game improved to 134 yards/gm from 106 yds / gm while the passing game decreased from 219 yds / gm to 199 yds / gm in 2002. They won an additional 3 games in 2002 despite only scoring 1 more point than they did in 2001. In 2003 Brees was 2-9 as a starter and averaged only 18 ppg and 187 yds / gm passing. When he was injured and replaced by Flutie they averaged 23 ppg and 193 ypg passing. Brees didn’t look like he was going to be a future star QB and with the No. 1 pick in the 2004 draft everyone thought they needed to draft Eli.
So now it's Charlie Weis that won it:rofl: How many SBs or big college games has Charlie won w/o Brady? last I checked Brady led an undefeated season w/o Weis and if not for their choking D he'd have ring #4. The pats D shut down SL until the 4th qtr where they became the first team in SB history to blow a 2 TD lead in the 4th qtr but luckily for them Brady rescued them w/ one of the greatest drives in SB history. I don't pin all the blame on losses ont he QB but most of Indy's playoff failures have been the result of poor play from the QB. Not every single player around Manning has to be elite but overall when you have Wayne, Clark, Addai, Collie, garcon- that is an elite group of weapons. not many, if any, teams have that type of group and it's been that way since day 1 when he stepped in and had Marshall Faulk and Marvin harrison. It takes a few years for WRs to develop, Harrison was developing nicely the way Key was for us. key didn't become a top WR until year 3. Nearly single handedly the D won that forst SB, I guess that's why they became the first D in history to blow a 14 pt SB lead. Oh and that great SL O wasn't always great in big games. In 2 title games and 2 SBs they averaged 20 PPG, NE held them to 17. That wasn't that great of an effort. Had they held them down in the 4th and not blown that big lead then I'd agree w/ you that they won it. There is a difference btw the SB D's and some of their lesser years but: 2001: allowed 16 PPG, blew 14 pt lead in 4th qtr of SB 2003: allowed 19 PPG, allowed 19 4th qtr pts in SB 2004: allowed 17 PPG Indy's supposed terrible D's: 1999: allowed 19 pts 2000: allowed 17 in regulation 2003: allowed 19 PPG 2006: allowed 13 PPG 2008: allowed 17 in regulation 2009: allowed 15 PPG Belichick took the Browns to the playoffs, it took him 4 years and in 5 years total he had only that lone playoff app and was 8 games under .500. In 1995 they lost week 1 to NE who would finish 6-10. Modell announced the move on 11/6, Cle was 4-5 at the time of the announcement. Buf and Detroit both got humiliated in the playoffs, how were they top teams? he would have won the SB if his D didn't allow a mediocre offense to 83 yds for the GW TD. Look at the 2007 postseason for proof, D's took away Moss and allowed Welker to beat them. They were trading yards for points. D's do not lay awake at night worry about welker, they do for Moss. Obviously SD made the right decision and miraculously as soon as they drafted Rivers Brees took a magic potion and became a good QB/
How many SBs has Tom Brady won w/o Charlie Weis? You have consistently said that Regular season doesn’t matter and that only the Postseason matters yet keep bringing up the undefeated season. Maybe if Brady put up more than 14 points in the Super Bowl they would have ring #4. Peyton Manning could and would have had a perfect season last year had the Colts kept him in the last few games. Addai, Collie and Garcon are not elite players. Harrison was not elite until after Manning got there. Holding one of the greatest offenses in NFL History to only 17 points isn’t that great of an effort? Only giving up 3 points thru 3 quarters of the game. They also set up one of NE’s scores with a turnover and scored a TD themselves on a turnover. Without that defense NE does not win that game. Maybe if they didn’t have to carry the entire team all game long they wouldn’t have been so exhausted at the end of the game. You not agreeing with me on that shows your bias towards Brady. The facts are that in 6 of the 9 wins from 2001-2004 the defense allowed 17 points or less. There were rumblings that the team was going to be moved. That has an affect on the team. Buffalo was the defending AFC Champion and one of the best teams in the league while Detroit had one of the best young teams in the league that won 10 games despite playing in a division where 4 of the 5 teams were .500 or better. Brady could have won SB XLII if he put up more than 14 points. Brady played terrible in the 2007 postseason. They only scored the go ahead TD in the SB because Brady went back to Welker to move the ball down the field. Hindsight is 20/20. Clearly Brees has been great from 2004 on. But going into the 2004 draft he gave the Chargers no indication that he was going to be a superstar, which is why they drafted Eli Manning with the No. 1 overall pick.
Regarding Marshall Faulk - isn't it odd that he had his best season in Indy running and receiving in the one season he played with Peyton Manning?
Why wouldn't you try to give Peyton credit for Faulk too? I'm sure it had nothing to do w/ him being healthy and getting more carries? His 4.1 YPC in 1998 was .1 higher than 1997 and the same as his career best in Indy. You want a difference maker? In 1999 his YPC went up to 5.5
How many has Charlie won w/o Weis? How many has Charlie been to as an OC? at least Brady made one w/o him and would have won if not for that "elite" D. Have someone read my posts to you b/c you just don't get it. I never called Garcon, Addai and Collie elite. There are very few elite receivers in this game and Indy has 2, pair those 2 w/ the good other players they have and he has ELITE weapons. I'm not sure if any QB has better weapons to work with- that is elite. Again, that great offense was not known for putting up big point totals in the biggest games. 2 years earlier(when the O was even better) they were held to ELEVEN points at HOME in the title game. Great D's finish off games, they don't allow 14 pts in opne SB and 19 in the 4th qtr in another. That's not what elite defenses do. There are always excuses w/ you. What were the excuses from 1991-1993? what was the excuse in 2000 w/ NE or winning 6 less games from 2007 to 2008? He only led them to 14 giving them the lead by 4 on an 80 yd drive late in the game. Not every game needs to be a shootout, that D was given a lead in the final minutes where all they had to do was not allow a TD to win and they couldn't do it. Brady was in a walking boot all 2007 postseason too and again they took away Moss and allowed welker to do all the damage which was why they weren't putting up big point totals. Clearly they were wrong and clearly that's why they haven't won a SB.
It was his best season with the Colts. Do you disagree? Brady could have had #4 if he put up more points in the SB. Again, I ask…how many SBs has Brady won w/o Weis or Vinateri or a top rated defense? The answer is NONE You stated more than a few times that Manning is surrounded by elite talent. Are you now backing away from that statement? I’m glad you now agree that Garcon, Addai, Collie along with Gonzalez and Brown are not elite. The teams that shut them down both had elite defenses (99 Buccaneers & 01 Patriots). Again, maybe if they didn’t have to carry the entire team all game long they would have had enough left in the tank to finish off the game. They only set up or scored all 17 points that NE scored prior to the last drive. Haha, excuses… Belichick inherited a team that was awful for Bud Carson in 1990. He rebuilt the defense and after finally settling on Vinny as his QB got into the postseason. They were poised to make a run in 1995 and started off 3-1 before the rumblings really took hold that Modell was looking to move the team. That is a big distraction. Belichick made some mistakes the first time around for sure (specifically the Kosar thing) but turned the team around before Modell announced he was moving the team. In 2000 Belichick took over a mediocre team. He rebuilt it for the 2001 season when they brought in around 20 free agents. Brady laughed when Plaxico Burress said that the Giants defense would hold the Pats to only 17 points. Then Brady played awful and only put up 14 points. If Brady put up more then they win. They don’t all have to be shootouts, but when your offense averages well over 30 ppg during the season and you only put up 14 then the offense is clearly the reason they lost. Now you’re giving excuses why Brady didn’t play well in the 2007 postseason? So what’s the excuse for last year then? The knee injury? Why didn’t he get the job done in 2005 or 2006 – both w/o Weis? You don’t know that Brees would have won a SB in SD. He really made a connection with Sean Payton. I wouldn’t say clearly the Chargers were wrong when all the information they had on Brees was that he wasn’t going to be their QB of the future. Hindsight it 20 / 20 – and that’s your only argument there.
Sure, you think it was b/c of a rookie QB who threw 28 INTs? Brady put up enough pts to give his team a 4 pt lead in the final mins of the SB. He has been surrounded by elite talent since day 1, that doesn't mean every player around him is elite. As a group they are elite w/ on average 2-3 elite level players. In 1989 Cleveland was in the AFC Championship Game. They had a bad 1990 season, they improved by ONE game from season 1 to season 2. He has done NOTHING w/o Brady. Bill Belichick w/ Tom Brady(8+ seasons, 135 games): 103-32, 76% 7 playoff apps 7 division titles 4 AFC Titles 3 SB Titles 14-4 playoff recors BB w/o Tom Brady(7+ seasons, 113 games): 51-62, 45% 1 playoff app 1-1 playoff record ZERO div titles ZERO AFC Title Game apps ZERO AFC Titles ZERO SBs Brady didn't have a good SB XLII but in the biggest moment of the game for his offense he came through which peyton doesn't do when things aren't going well and he led them to a 4 pt lead in the final minutes. That should have been good enough against a mediocre offense. Name me the playoff game where Peyton drove his team for a long TD drive to take the lead only to watch his D blow it? Last year he stunk, he got dominated by Baltimore. I don't know SD would have won a SB but I do know they would have had a better shot if they used that pick in '04 more wisely.
That same QB set the record for most TDs thrown by a rookie…What’s your point? Faulk had his best season in Indy with Peyton as the QB. Brady did not put up enough points to win the game. Is that an incorrect or correct statement? As a group they are elite because they are playing with an elite QB. If they were all in Miami they wouldn’t be nearly as good. Belichick rebuilt an aging team into a competitor. He did that prior to the Free Agency era when it only takes a season or two to turn it around. The team fell apart in 1995 when it was obvious that Modell was going to move the team. If you think he did NOTHING there, then that’s your prerogative however, I like living in reality. He wasn’t the perfect coach back then, but he did a really good job turning that team around before it was torn apart due to Art Modell. He really came thru by leading them to a whole 14 points when they averaged well over 30 and scored 38 against the Giants a few weeks earlier at Giants Stadium. Brady played terrible in the SB and was a main reason they lost the game. No matter how you spin it, you don’t win many games scoring only 14 points and you don’t lose many games when you hold the opponent to 17. BTW – Brady was NOT in a boot the entire postseason despite your attempt to give him an excuse. SD had a great shot to get to the Super Bowl in 2007 but lost two of their star players (Gates and Tomlinson) and Rivers was severely injured. Brees wouldn’t have won that game either. Rivers is a great QB and Brees showed them nothing to make them think they had a future SB winner before the 2004 draft. Hindsight is 20/20, but they made the right choice.
That's great but he threw TWENTY EIGHT INTs and led his team to 3 wins. Brady out up enough pts to win, on their last legit possession he left his D w/ a 4 pt lead which they blew. The difference btw that SB and the first 2 was that the O didn't have enough time to come back so Brady could save the D. They wouldn't put up the same #s in Miami but they'd make Chad henne look alot better. BB was in Cle for 5 years and had ONE winning season. The #s w/ and w/o Brady tell us all we need to know. W/ the game on the line down by 3 he led them 80 yds for a TD late in that SB. He found a way to get it done in the biggest spot- when has Peyton done this? Rivers is not a big game QB either, He has 3 playoffs wins- one he didn't finish and they may not have won if he did and 2 of his 3 playoff wins came against that legendary playoff choker from Indy. They made the wrong choice.
I'm not sure where you are getting some of your numbers from junc. The patriots defense gave up 15.5 points per game including playoffs in 2003.14.8 ppg in the regular season which was 1st in the nfl.The pats also gave up the least passing TDs,had the most ints and were 2nd in total take aways.
Where are my #s wrong? What does that have to do w/ them giving up 19 pts in the 4th qtr of the SB? I don't care about reg season #s, both teams were top teams in the reg season. What matters is what they did in Jan/feb and the Indy D's w/ Manning starting have allowed less points in regulation in postseason than the Pats D's w/ Brady.
And Marshall Faulk had his best season in Indy that year. He had his highest yds/carry and he had his best receiving season. Faulk wasn’t injured his entire career in Indy. No, Brady did not put up enough pts to win. He only put up 14. He needed to score more than 17 to win. He did not get it done. Period. Brandon Marshall couldn’t make Chad Henne look better what makes you think these guys would?!? It’s a different era. He had to re-build the Browns w/o free agency…which he did. In NE he rebuilt them quickly with key FA’s (Otis Smith, Anthony Pleasant, Terrell Buckley, Bryan Cox, Mike Vrabel, Roman Phifer, Mike Compton, Joe Andruzzi, Antowain Smith) and good draft picks (Richard Seymour and Matt Light) to go along with the elite defensive players (McGinest, Law, Bruschi, Milloy, Ted Johnson) and an elite kicker he inherited. Brady did not do enough to win the game. Rivers is one of the best QBs in the league. Brees showed the Chargers nothing to very little which is why they drafted Eli No.1 in 2004. They did not make the wrong choice with the information they were given in. Too bad they can't live in the "hindsight is 20/20" world you live in. They had a certain amount of information on Brees and they determined (correctly at the time btw) that Brees was not the answer.
Faulk TIED for his highest YPC and he only went up .1 from 1997 to 1998 but the following year w/ Warner he went over 5. If the D doesn't choke NE wins. Brandon Marshall is one player. Name me the teams w/ better weapons than Manning has? I'm talking about when healthy, obviously that has taken a hit but he still has more than most even w/ the injuries. He had Plan B in 1991 and 1992 then in 1993 real FA became a reality. Remember, he thought he was close so he signed Andre Rison in 1995. That didn't work out. The FAs in NE were all off the scrap heap, all types of players that woulld have been available w/ Plan B in the early 90s. Brady led his O 80 yds w/ the game on the line to take the lead in the final minutes. I ask again, when has Peyton EVER done this? Obviously they were not correct, they had all the info in the world on Brees as they saw every practice for 4 years. They made a mistake. Rivers is a top QB, another great fantasy QB that cannot get it done when it matters most- a perfect QB for you.
I'm pretty confident it will never end, it may tale a break but we have been arguing these points for years.:grin:
Did he ever have a higher YPC than he did in 1998 with the Colts? Did he ever have as much of an impact in teh passing game than he did in 1998 with the Colts? If he put up more than 14 lousy points they would have won. He put up 38 against them in the regular season but failed when it mattered. Those types of players weren't available in Plan B FA. 1995 was a complete disaster for the Browns because of the relocation issue. They started off well going 3-1 (losing to a playoff team from the year before before winning 3 in a row then losing to two playoff teams), but once it was obvious the team was moving it became a huge distraction., Did the Patriots win the game? Obviously he didn't put up enough points and do enough to win. Brees showed them nothing until 2004 after the draft. It's too bad they didn't have a crystal ball, but after 3 seasons they had enough information to determine that Brees was not going to be there future QB. Whether they are wrong or not is yet to be determined. Rivers has done a great job for them. Brees might not have done any better had he stayed in SD. He didn't do anything prior to the 2004 draft.
Technically yes he did. In 1994 he averaged 4.0828 per carry while in 1998 he averaged 4.07098. Never had as much impact in the pass game, had a rookie QB needing a dump off option. That will help. Did he have his best years w/ Peyton or in SL? Some games 14 should be enough, others you have to go on a scoring spree. In that game against that offense 14 should have been enough. The Pats lost b/c the D blew it and unlike SB XXXVI & XXXVIII he didn't have enough time to rescure the D from collapse. They misevaluated Brees, they made a mistake.
He had one year w/ Peyton and it was his best season in Indianapolis The only games where 14 points would be enough is when you play a bottom type team. They were in the Super Bowl and 14 points should never be considered enough to win, and it wasn't. The Pats were only in SB XXXVI BECAUSE of the defense. They were only in SB XLII because of the defense because the offense clearly underperformed. Brees gave them enough to see that he didn't look like the answer. The Chargers didn't have a crystal ball. They didn't misevaluate, the evaluated what they had seen, and what they had seen was garbage.
