They drafted Brees in 2001, they signed Flutie to mentor him as he developed. Brees became the starter in year 2 and was decent in his first 2 years, he didn't become really good until 2004 but he would have put up #s w/ him while he was developing.
12% on the completions, 1 whole yard per attempt less and nearly 50% lower on his TD% and you think his numbers are very close? They are 3-1 because the Ravens and Chargers both blew there games. Garcon is so talented he drops a ton of passes and plays inconsistent. So Gonzalez couldn’t even catch more passes at 23 than Harrison did at 36. Welker is more talented than Collie. Collie is the same type of receiver as Welker but Welker does it better. Are you seriously saying Schlegel is more talented than Bart Scott. Please tell me you are not serious. BTW we drafted Schlegel in the 4th round not the 2nd. Collie does the same thing that Welker does and you call Collie a Very good receiver and Welker overrated. Your are bias against Manning and that’s the only reason you make that claim.
He was so decent that after his 3rd year the Chargers decided to take a QB to replace him with the No. 1 overall pick.
Ohhh so it's b/c the Ravens and Chargers blew their games:rofl: The whining never ends. You think Gonzalez is the same talent as Harrison? Welker isn't doing it better w/o Moss. Can you read? seriously? where did I say schlegel was MORE talented than Scott? I have always called welker a good WR, I am not fooled into thinking he is great or one of the best like folks like you believe. Your bias against Brady is the only reason you think he is great. He is a good WR, nothing more. Put Collie opposite Moss and he puts up BETTER #s than Welker b/c he can actually find the EZ and get downfield from time to time.
Teams make mistakes, right? Obviously Brees has had the better career btw the 2 and they wasted a #1 pick on QB which they didn't need.
You don't think the Ravens blew there game. The Chargers had every opportunity to tie it and send it into OT, but they don't have Vinateri as their kicker. I certainly don't think Gonzalez is as talented as you do. But I would expect him to be able to compete with a 36 year WR who was coming back from an injury. And Collie wouldn't be doing it better w/o Manning. Why the personal attack? Let me put this as clear as I can. Anthony Schlegel is no where near the talent of Bart Scott. Any one who claims that Anthony Schlegel and Scott aren't much different talent wise are clueless or are being disingenuous. I think Welker is one of the best slot receivers in the game. I give credit where it's due. Collie is no better than Welker...Not at all. Collie is opposite Reggie Wayne who you said was better than Moss (except for 2007) and still puts up the same numbers that Welker does The Chargers drafted a QB with the #1 overall pick because Brees was NOT decent prior to that draft.
They won the games, that's the bottom line. We can say the same things about us against Den, Min and Det. Remind me of all the SBs Peyton has won b/c he had Adam Vinatieri? and remind me how many Adam won in his 5 years before Brady became a starter in NE? Don't take anything personal, I was asking a serious question b/c clearly you weren't comprehending what was posted. I don't think you quite understand talent. B/c a player does not succeed does not mean they are not talented. vernon Gholston is loaded w/ talent, he has MORE physical talent than a Bart Scott. he is not failing b/c of lack of talent. Wayne has been better but defenses still pay mroe attention to Moss than Wayne which opened things up for Welker. The Chargers made a mistake obviously and they traded the #1 pick and used the 4th pick. Brees led them to 8-8 in '02 then he had some injuries and they took a step back in '03.
I don't put wins and losses on the QB. I'm not crediting Sanchez with those wins. Certainly not alone. Okay, so physical talent may be one thing, but that doesn't translate into production - which at the end of the day is the only thing that matters. So using Donald Brown and Anthony Gonzalez as examples of Manning being surrounded by talent really doesn't matter, because they aren't producing on the field. Defenses pay attention to Wayne, but for Moss they roll their safety's over the top. Of course that's going to help Welker. But the other thing that hurts Welker now is that defenses don't fear Brady beating them down the field. Manning is feard all over the field. Whether it's short, mid range or deep. The Chargers selected Eil Manning with the #1 overall pick then traded him to the Giants for Philip Rivers and a few draft picks.
QBs are judged on Ws and Ls, their job is to win not lead the league in fantasy points. Gonzalez has produced when healthy, brown has been a major disappointment but obviously he has talent to work with. D's don't fear Brady beating them over the top b/c he doesn't have a WR that can get over the top. Tate is the only deep threat and he's a developing player and D's aren't worried about him right now. Welker is his top option and he's being smothered. he's a good #2 or 3 guy, he's not a #1. Eli was the #1 pick, Rivers was the #4 pick. They took eli to trade him. Their QB came w/ the 4th pick, what exactly is the argument here? If they knew Brees would be as good as he has bee do you think they take Rivers or trdae for him? of course not. They made a mistake.
You always mention fantasy football and I never do. Do you realize that? Teams win, not just QBs. Gonzalez produced as a top #3 receiver. Lets not make the claim that he was ever a crucial part of the offense. Welker is his top target on 3rd downs. Welker has taken a lot of the coverage that has allowed Hernandez to get open and become a primary target. These are things you know by watching the games and not just looking at stat sheets. I don't know what the argument is. I'm posting the facts of what happened in the draft. The Chargers wouldn't have drafted a QB with the #1 pick if Brees was decent as you suggested he was.
I always mention fantasy football but your entire argument for Manning is all about fantasy #s. It's great that he plays more than half his games indomes w/ elite level talent around him and puts up huge reg season #s BUT why doesn't that translate into postseason success? The greatest players are the one that can do it on the reg AND postseason. You seem to be missing my points. Nowhere have I claimed Garcon, Collie or Gonzalaez are great players but they are talented guys that most QBs do not have to throw to. These are manning's 3rd, 4th, 5th options. Some QBs don't have top options as good as those guys. Hernandez 1st 4 weeks when Welker wasn't being double teams: 24 recs, 240 yds Hernandez last 4 weeks when welker has been doubled: 16 recs, 196 yds That sort of blows your theory out of the water, huh? Welker is a good WR, nothing more. W/ Moss taking all the attention he put up better #s but w/ Welker commanding the attention he is struggling big time and he's not opening things up for other receivers b/c he doesn't command as much attention as Moss does. The Chargers made a mistake clearly. Teams make mistakes all the time, that doesn't mean Brees wasn't decent his first 2 years starting. He took off in his 3rd year starting, you don't think SD would be much better had they used that pick to draft another player and kept Brees? The best QB in that draft was drafted 7 spots after Rivers, teams make mistakes.
I never go into the NFL forum on this message board so I only just now noticed that Peter King put Davone Bess on his midseason all-pro team. EPIC FAIL
I’m not missing your points. Your points are terrible. Talent equates to success on the field. If the results aren't being made on the field then your "talent" point is really pointless. You made a dumb point and have been trying to spin it the entire time. But, I’ll play with your point for a minute…. To say that Manning has “elite” talent while Brady never has is disingenuous. Brady has been surrounded by elite talent as well. Including Kevin Faulk, Corey Dillon, Troy Brown (he was drafted which means he’s more talented than Wes Welker apparently), Daniel Graham, Ben Watson, Ben Tate, Aaron Hernandez, Deion Branch, Laurence Maroney, Chad Jackson, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Donte Stallworth and the greatest clutch kicker in NFL History Adam Vinatieri….Kind of blows your theory right out the window doesn’t it. Not really. Brady’s has not played as well since Moss left. The fact that defenses don’t fear the Pats stretching the field has hurt the short to mid passing game. Welker took a lot of the attention which allowed Hernandez to get open. Now the defenses aren’t concerned with the deep pass don’t have to play over the top coverage which is allowing them to focus on Hernandez. Welker is a top slot receiver in the game. Hindsight is 20/20. You made the incorrect claim that Brees had played decent prior to 2004, which he did not and prompted the Chargers to look for a new option at QB.
Even though you aren't acting like it in these debates I know that you know football better than this so please don't insult my football intelligence by trying to tell me Brady has had weapons even close to what Manning has had for most of his career. The only 2 years it was even close was 2007 and 2009. Kevin faulk is a nice player, he's nothing special. he won TWO SBs w/o Dillon, troy Brown was an average WR who coincidentally had the best season of his career w/ Brady. These guys are nothing compared to marhsall Faulk, reggie Wayne, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, Edggerin James, etc... keep going back to that draft point. You amde the absolutely asinine statement that Collie wasn't half as talented as Welker, again if that was the case based strictly on talent Welker wouldn't have gone undrafted and Collie a 4th rd pick. That statemtn is as asinine as your incredibly weak manning arguments(or should I say excuses b/c that is all you provide for manning) through the years. Now the excuse is that it is Brady. you just posted a statement that said Welker is now commanding the attention and opening things up for Hernandez and that was proven FALSE so now the next excuse comes. A top slot WR is generally an average WR so it's great that he is a top slot WR but overall he's nothing more than a good WR. He's not reggie Wayne or Marvin Harrison, he's Austin Collie. It wasn't incorrect, Brees was decent in those years. SD won 6 games total in '00 and '01, he led them to 8 wins in '02. In '03 he missed some games and wasn't as good but overall in those 2 years he was decent. SD made a mistake.
I’m using your definition of talent. You based a players talent level on when they were drafted otherwise you wouldn’t have included Gonzalez or Donald Brown and wouldn’t have made the comment as to when Collie was drafted vs. Welker not being drafted. My arguments have been solid in this debate, yours have been weak. Why did you make the comment that Brady won 2 SBs w/o Dillon then include Faulk and James in your case that Manning’s surrounding talent was so much better. I am basing the talent level that Brady has had off of what you define having talent as. Unfortunately you feel players can’t develop over time or you wouldn’t have made the statement that Collie is more talented than Welker because Collie was drafted in the 4th round while Welker went undrafted. [‘quote]Now the excuse is that it is Brady. you just posted a statement that said Welker is now commanding the attention and opening things up for Hernandez and that was proven FALSE so now the next excuse comes.[/quote] I didn’t say now, I said Welker has commanded the attention. Not just over the last few games. He has all season long. Austin Collie is Welker with less talent. He wasn’t decent. If he was decent at best SD never would have looked to replace him. 28 TDs and 31 INTs while completing less than 60% of your passes is not decent. In 2003 he was awful which prompted the Chargers to look for a new QB.
I didn’t say now, I said Welker has commanded the attention. Not just over the last few games. He has all season long. Austin Collie is Welker with less talent. He wasn’t decent. If he was decent at best SD never would have looked to replace him. 28 TDs and 31 INTs while completing less than 60% of your passes is not decent. In 2003 he was awful which prompted the Chargers to look for a new QB.[/QUOTE] To you the only talented players are players on other teams as Peyton can take any stiff w/o talent and turn them into stars. Your arguments(excuses) have been as weak as usual. for some reason when it comes to Peyton you act like you have never watched a football game before. Brady has had average talent around him on O for 90% of his career. Manning has had elite level talent around him for 100% of his career. Welker never comannded attention while Moss was on the other side, now w/ Moss gone and Brady's weapons gone they are taking welker away. Teams make mistakes, it happens. He was absolutely decent in those 2 years and he was developing. You act like he was Bubby brister 1995 or Browning Nagle. Obviously the Chargers made a mistake or maybe they would have a SB by now?
And to you that every player Peyton has ever been with is elite talent and he doesn’t have anything to do with their success. You even go on to say that had the Colts drafted Ryan Leaf instead of Manning that Harrison would have eventually have turned into a HOF player. What nonsense. Manning is the reason Harrison became elite. He was a good receiver with a ton of potential before Manning, but had he played with Ryan Leaf instead of Manning he would have never achieved the same kind of success. Brady had an elite defense, an elite kicker, top tier OL, elite coaching. It’s no coincidence that he hasn’t won a SB since the defense got old and weaker, the kicker left, the OL lost some of its key players and got older and Charlie Weis left. Welker absolutely commanded attention from the defense. The problem was the defense had to leave a safety deep to help with Moss. Now that defenses aren’t concerned with the deep passes the whole NE passing game isn’t as effective. Outside of hindsight being 20/20 what was the mistake? Brees did not show that he would be there future based off of 2 seasons as their QB. Did Brees turn out to be a superstar? Yes, but there wasn’t anything to indicate that going into the 2004 draft.
The difference btw you and I is that I can give Peyton credit when he deserves it and you make every excuse in the book to take credit away from Brady. There's no doubt that the players around great QBs like those 2 will be better for having played w/ them BUT a blind man can see peyton has always had more talent to work with. Harrison was on his way to elite status before Manning ever played a down. Brady had an overrated defense that would typically melt in big spots(which is why they don't have ring #4). Manning's D have given up LESS points inr egulation in postseason than Brady's supposed elite Ds. and how has the elite belichick done in his career w/o Brady? Dungy led a team w/ Shaun King as his starting QB to an NFC Title Game. Dungy had a ton of success w/o Manning, the same cannot be said of Belichick w/o Brady. He led NE to an undefeated season w/o that kicker and Manning has had Vinatieri for 5 years- where are his 3 SBs? Welker was an afterthought w/ Moss on the field. D's will get beat by welker w/ dinks and dunks. they feared getting beat by Moss. Brees was a developing QB who showed he could play in this league. he led SD to 8-8 in '02 after they had won 6 games total in '00 and '01. SD was foolish to give up on him.
