Parcells asked the Packers about Hasselback (who would have gotten us to the playoffs), they got him to settle for Mirer (a rare personell mistake for Parcells). If Lucas had a better training camp he would have started sooner. Getting this team as far as he did under the circumstances was an amazing achievement for any coach. Groh did what was best for the team in the long run. In the short run he left us one game short of the playoffs. However, this was an off the field player personnel decision, on the field, Groh was a pretty good coach. No clock management and other idiot mistakes that were common under Herm.
Parcells also tried to go with Lucas two weeks earlier than he did (still probably too late) but Lucas got hurt vs Indy and we were stuck with Mirer for two more weeks, one of them a win vs Arizona.
We didn't really make those games important, we were 4-6 heading into that 2 game stretch and they dropped us to 4-8, the game swere starting to become meaningful again and they played their worst then when the games were meaningles they played well against teams playing awful football. If you don't buy that then the bottom line is we were 8-8 and missed the playoffs then a year later we found a way to miss the playoffs again. We should have made the playoffs in 1997, 1999 and 2000 and we missed all 3 of those years. Miami would lose their playoff game at Jax 62-7. Dallas got crushed by Minnesota in the WC rd
Getting in the playoffs in 1999 would have been one of the all-time great coaching jobs, but I agree those Giants and Colts games took us out of it. Definitely agree with you on 1997, that Detroit game is squarely on Parcells or we get in, 2000 you can point to any number of things. Did they wear out after all year of Al Groh? Would Keyshawn have gotten us a TD before the half at Baltimore instead of a 100-yard pick-6? You can blame Hall, Vinny, Groh, any number of ways to get from 6-1 to 9-7. But the fact remains we missed all three years, while with Herm we won at Oakland to get in in 2001--we all know about 2002, you have to give that one to Herm and Chad no matter how much you might hate one or both.
That's great that he asked about hasselbeck- did he get him? and Hasselbeck went 5-7 in his first year w/ Seattle so even if he made that trade we probably don't make the playoffs in '99 though we would have been set up well long term at QB. A rare personnel mistake for Parcells?:rofl::rofl: parcells was nothing more than a mediocre personnel man. Parcells is a great coach and he did a very good job in '99 but sticking w/ Mirer too long cost us and that's on the coach. How was groh a pretty good coach on the field? Essentially every gameplan was scrapped b/c we fell behind big early. We had multiple miracle wins that year and finished losing 6 of 9 games to miss the playoffs after a 6-1 start. Good point and here was another Parcells blunder. Tied at 13 w/ time running out deep in Indy territory parcells called a pass for Lucas and it was picked off setting up Indy for the GW FG and costing us the game.
My wife's first game with me, that was the year we met. Then we sat in about three hours of traffic to get back to her apt in Manhattan and saw the end of the Mets-Braves 18 inning game or whatever that was. Fucking Colts beat us twice that year.
I remember that season vividly, and the colts game at 4-6 was, simply put, a big game. The talk all week was how the Jets had a chance to pull off an improbable run and how that game was one of the 2 or 3 toughest remaining games on the schedule. The consensus seemed to be that we had a legitimate chance to maybe only lose one more game the rest of the way out and sneak into the playoffs at 9-7. It is perhaps a semantical argument, but the fact of the matter is, we DID play ourselves into playing MEANINGFUL games against Indianapolis and NYG (You seem to agree when you say "the games were starting to become meaningful again" -LOL) Right, but again, my point remains that Herm didn't make the playoffs in 2001 because of any superiority in coaching over either Parcells or Groh. Again, John Hall missed an easier FG at home for Groh than the one he made in Oakland to put Herm's Jets in the playoffs a year later. If he makes the easier kick for Groh in his own stadium, Al Groh makes the playoffs in his first year as coach of the Jets and is still coaching the Jets in 2001.
It was basically our season at 4-6 and we lost a clopse game then quit the next week. If we hadn't quit the next week we would have made the playoffs, that's on coaching. he has to get those guys over that loss and let them know they still had a chance to be a playoff team. We were 4-6, it was big for us to get into contention but we never were in serious contention all year. Coaching was the biggest difference btw making the playoffs in 2001 and missing in 2000. In 2000 after trading Key and having Vinny back after the year off we had Vinny throw the ball 590 times in 15 games and he threw 25 INTs including a bunch to seal our fate in week 17. He averaged 39 passes a game, only three games all year did he throw less than 30 passes and one was ina blowout at oak where Chad finished the game. Seeing that, the new CS in 2001 limited Vinny's throws and let a future HOF RB become the focal point of the offense. Vinny threw 28 times a game in 2001 and only threw 30 or more times four times all year while Curtis barely missed out on the rufhing title. This was the biggest difference in the two years. Also, in 2000 we started 6-1 and lost 6 of our last 9 to choke our way out of the playoffs. In 2001 we started 3-3 and got better as the season progressed winning 7 of our last 10 to earn a playoff spot and we did so by winning in a place(Oakland) we hadn't won in since we were the Titans on a John Hall 53 yard FG. Groh had given up on Hall so he wouldn't have been around to make that kick. That kick against Detroit in 200 only ties the game if he makes it, you guys are acting like the game was over and we win if he makes that kick. One last point. We had an awful loss at home to a bad Bills team the week before the Raider game, the 2000 team folded ina similar spot but Hermn and his CS regrouped the team quickly and we won.
Very fair point about Herm's coaching staff limiting the number of Vinny's throws and turning the Jets into a running team (One of my main complaints with that 2000 team was their lack of committment to the run - although that was one of the standard differences between Dan Henning and Paul Hackett. Herm definitely deserves credit for bringing in an OC more committed to running the football with a future hall of fame running back at his disposal). Although, I still contend the biggest reason Herm made the playoffs and Groh didn't was mostly circumstance. Herm had a considerably easier schedule than Groh, and his kicker made an amazingly clutch kick for him that he didn't make for Groh (and great point about the kick only being for a tie, not a win) Also, I'm really glad you brought up the Bills game in week 16 of 2001 because I was sure going to. That loss was almost a carbon copy of the loss a year earlier to Detriot under Al Groh (9-5 heading into the game, playing a mediocre team at home with a chance to clinch a playoff berth, conservative offensive playcalling, etc, etc). Now, the biggest difference from that point forward, was a) Playing the 2000 Ravens defense on the road and b) John Hall making a kick for Herm that he never made for Groh. In my opinion, Groh had the Jets ready to play a big game in Baltimore, and for the most part, they did just that. I really can't blame Groh for Vinny throwing 5 game-changing interceptions. Our only chance to win that game was to throw the ball and throw it some more because that Ravens team was an impossible team to run on (statistically, one of the best run defenses of all-time) and we were already established as a predominantly passing team by then.
How was the schedule easier? In 2000 we played 6 playoff teams and 8 games against playoff teams In 2001 we played 6 playoff teams and 8 games against playoff teams In 2000 we played one game against a SB team, in 2001 we played 3 games against SB teams. The playoff teams we played in 2000 went a combined 6-5 in postseason(4 of those wins coming from Baltimore) The playoff teams we played in 2001 went a combined 7-5 in postseason The scheds were similar, the biggest difference was in coaching from 2000 to 2001. In 2001 Mike Westhoff came aboard and helped Hall back, Groh had shattered Hall's confidence. Westhoff and herm helped to rebuild it. Hall missed plenty of chip shot kicks in his career but Groh went overboard and destroyed his confidence as one of those fake tough guy coaches trying to do a Parcells imitation. Remember, groh routinely had top recruiting classes at UVa but he could never win. he was NOT a good HC. if not for Vinny we never would have had 9 wins, he led us back multiple times for wins when he ahd to take over playcalling from poor gameplans after we got down big. Vinny threw away that season but we never have 9 wins and a chance if not for him.
Also, I'm not sure where you are getting this idea that Al Groh destroyed John Hall's confidence. Did John Hall ever say that? The guy missed a 40 yard kick at home with a chance to tie the biggest game of the season late in the 4th quarter. Give me break, dude.
oh btw, one extremely underrated play in the Baltimore disaster was Vinny fumbling the snap with the Jets driving and already up 14-0
Again, if not for Vinny we are not even in that situation, he made up for a ton of coaching mistakes that year. I actually talk to John about this when I met him at the Viking game. His exact words weren't that he destroyed his confidence but he hated Groh as did most of the team and wacthing those games at the time it wasn't tough to see what was going on. A 40 yard kick on that wful grass we had, late in a game on a sloppy wet field is not a chip shot FG and again he had missed some chippys before but he came through more often than not w/ big kicks but groh tossed him out of the street and he never would have been a Jet in 2001 if Groh was still coaching.
Eh, I'd say the coaching staff, along with the rest of the team, made up for a lot of Vinny's mistakes (25 interceptions and 5 fumbles in the 2000 season - that's a higher turnover total than that of Mark Sanchez in his ROOKIE season) but I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Fair enough. Good information.
If not for the ton of comebacks(GB, NE, TB, Mia) we aren't anywhere near playoff contention w/ the awful gameplans we had all year.
So, in your opinion, Herm was a better gameplanner than Groh? Also, was Paul Hackett a better OC than Dan Henning? (I personally always thought Henning was a bit overrated because he didn't run the ball enough for my tastes, but still, the question remains)
I think Groh knows X's and O's better than Herm but the gameplans were terrible offensively and as much as we bashed hackett we had better gameplans for what that team needed to do to win games and Herm wasn't as rigid as Groh. If you remember we changed defensive philosophies mid season b/c things weren't working, that didn't happen under groh w/ the offense.
Yeah, I agree with you there. Groh could have tweaked the offense and didn't. (Although, I always suspected that he didn't want to step on Dan Henning's toes because he was Parcell's guy)
