that was not his role in the offense. All Time leader in receptions when he retired is production. Converting his receptions into first downs is production.
So how many first downs did he convert? Unless you can answer that question you can't make the claim that he produced first downs.
Monk was at his best when the offense needed a catch to keep a drive alive. He converted nearly two-thirds, or 64 percent, of his 940 receptions into first downs. http://www.redskins.com/gen/articles/Redskins_Hall_of_Fame__Art_Monk__Darrell_Green_4567.jsp
Good idea for a thread. I'd put the following into the Hall of Very Good: Mo Lewis Hardy Nickerson Levon Kirkland John Abraham Roman Phifer Kwame Lassiter Leroy Butler Bill Romanowski (prob won't make the HOF because of roids) Steve McNair Corey Dillon La'Roi Glover (he might get consideration for the HOF) Earl Holmes Jason Gildon Jesse Armstead Yeah, not a very exclusive club. I could probably add about 100 more players to my list as it is. There have been tons of underappreciated and forgotten careers throughout the years.
Antonio Gates, Dallas Clark, and Jason Witten have all probably done enough so far in their careers to at least be on the preliminary list. Odds are good that at least one of them will garner induction into the Pro Football Hall of Fame. Then you have young veterans like Brandon Pettigrew and the Oakland Zach Miller. Who knows? Those two fellows may have great careers. In conclusion, I would have to disagree vehemently that Gonzalez is the only active tight end who will be inducted into the PFHOF.
That's not fair. Either use Pro Bowl appearances in your debates or don't use them. You have to pick one or the other. You can't have it both ways. You say you are not big on using the Pro Bowl and then you went and used it anyway! hmy:
Clark wasn't with the team yet for Super Bowls 17 and 18. Monk was a starter for those teams, although he was injured during the 1982 postseason.
to correct one thing there- Fryar was drafted in 1984. He was a regular starter at WR by his second season but he was not very good. He really didn't blossom as a receiver till he went to Miami in 1993. When I think of Fryar's New England days I think of him being a very good punt returner early in his career and being underwhelming as a receiver. It wasn't so much that he was bad. It's just that he wasn't special. He was a 17-year pro who was actually better in the second half of his career. That's pretty rare stuff.
Here are some words I wrote a couple years back in one of the many Art Monk debate threads- Monk had some of his very best games in the Redskins 14th, 15th, and 16th games in various regular seasons. You'll appreciate this- several times Monk finished with better season stats than some of the WRs selected over him to play in the Pro Bowl because the voting was closed around Week 13. Everything about the Pro Bowl is ridiculous. It'd be akin to giving out the Cy Young Awards in August and the NBA MVP in March.
My memory of him as a Patriot was when he cut his hand with a knife. I can't remember how hedid it though ETA - it was his wife. I thought that may have been a radio joke (I was only 7 when it happened) http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/distractions/031022.html
In addition to Toon, Rice, and Brown here are other notable WRs drafted in '85- Walter Stanley, GB (punt return TD on Thanksgiving Day '86 to win game 44-40 was maybe the best play ever in a game between two bad teams) Steve Tasker, HOU Andre Reed, BUF Chris Burkett, BUF Reggie Langhorne, CLE Emile Harry, ATL Eric Martin, NO Vance Johnson, DEN Jessie Hester, L.A. Raiders Mike Young, L.A. Rams
Art Monk was a backup in three pro bowls. In 1986 it looks like they named three starters and one reserve so he MAY have started that year. Let's take a good hard look at who was selected ahead of Monk in the NFC (1980-1995). 1. Jerry Rice - pro bowl starter 1986-1995 - easily better than Monk (1st ballot HOF) 2. James Lofton - pro bowl starter 1980-1982, backup 1983-1985, AFC 1991 (HOF) 3. Sterling Sharpe - pro bowl starter 1989, 1992, 1993 backup 1990 - easily better than Monk (short career but could make HOF anyway) 4. Gary Clark - pro bowl starter 1986-1987, reserve 1990-1991 started over Monk in 1986 - easily better then monk (won't make HOF) 5. Mike Quick - pro bowl 1983, 1985, reserve 1986-1987, injury replacement in 1984 started over Monk in 1986 - better than Monk (won't make HOF) 6. Henry Ellard - pro bowl starter 1984, 1988, reserve 1989 started over Monk in 1984 - better than Monk (should make HOF but probably won't) 7. Michael Irvin - pro bowl starter 1991, reserve 1992-1995 - easily better than Monk (1st ballot HOF) 8. Chris Carter - pro bowl starter 1994, reserve 1993, 1995 - easily better than Monk (will make HOF, should have gone 1st ballot but didn't) 9. Andre Rison - pro bowl starter 1990, reserve 1991, 1992 - arguably better than Monk (won't get anywhere near the HOF) 10. Herman Moore - pro bowl starter 1995, reserve 1994 - arguably better than Monk (won't get anywhere near the HOF) 11. Roy Green - pro bowl starter 1983-1984 started over Monk in 1984 Other multiple year pro bowlers: Ahmad Rashad - 1980, 1981 Dwight Clark - 1981, 1982 Charlie Brown - 1982,1983 Single year pro bowlers: Harold Carmichael - 1980 James Tilley - 1980 Alfred Jenkins - 1981 starter John Jefferson - 1982 Ron J. Brown - 1985 started over Monk Anthony Carter - 1987 Drew Hill - 1988 Eric Martin -1988 John Taylor - 1989 This doesn't even include all of the AFC talent during those same years.
It's too late for me to examine all that and comment on it right now. Let me just explain something. I hate the Pro Bowl. I especially hate when somebody brings up Pro Bowl appearances in Hall of Fame debates. In previous Monk debate threads (there have been quite a few), his lack of Pro Bowls would be brought up as a major mark against him. It was at that point when I would come in and cry foul and explain why the Pro Bowl sucks. It is mostly about the voting. How can you put stock in Pro Bowl voting when the damn shit wraps up around Week 12 or 13? It is absurd. It was two years ago when I made that comment about Monk having good to great games after the Pro Bowl voting was closed. It has probably been three or four years since I did the actual research. Multiple times Monk got beat out for the Pro Bowl by WRs who had better numbers through 12 games. Monk would then have better numbers by the end of the season. Whenever Monk bested other WRs in numbers it was really big because he always bested other WRs in intangibles. The guy was an excellent blocker and team player. He was very valuable on running plays. At times, Monk played the tight end and H-back positions. One question to those of you who saw Monk play. Did you ever see him drop a pass?
Before I retire for the night... some corrections to post #96- Cris Carter played with the Eagles, Vikings, and Dolphins. Chris Carter created The X-Files. Another Chris Carter plays with the Mets and another plays in the Athletics organization. I am astounded by the number of people who write "Chris Carter" when talking about the NFL receiver. Surely, these people had to have watched his name splashed all over TV screens during Vikings games. Another one that gets me is "Payton Manning." I mean, seriously, c'mon people. How many times have we seen the name "Peyton" on our TV screens or in print? Pat Tilley was the Cardinals WR (I don't know of any James Tilleys, NFL or no NFL) I am perplexed by the John Jefferson Pro Bowl selection in 1982. He played in eight games (which means he missed one) and only caught 27 passes and scored zero touchdowns. It couldn't be a reputation thing, because although he made the Pro Bowl from 1978-80, he was not a Pro Bowler in 1981. I'll have to look at Jefferson's 1982 numbers on a week-to-week basis. Maybe he put up most of those numbers (27-452-0) in his first six games and maybe did close to nothing the last two games he played. Ron Brown made the Pro Bowl as a returner. He was a backup WR who caught 14 passes the year he went to the Pro Bowl. Maybe Brown did start that Pro Bowl. I wouldn't know nor do I care. If he did, it would have been because the other WRs didn't give a rat's ass about the game. Even that, no, I can't believe Brown would have started that Pro Bowl at the WR position. Heck, he only started 9 games at WR for the Rams.
Here is the link to the 1985 pro bowl roster: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1985/probowl.htm The starters are bolded (usually they have the most 1st team honors). Ususally there are two starters and two backups for the NFC. In 1986 there were three starters including Monk and only one backup. If you change the year in the link you get the pro bowl for that year instread of 1985.
