No. What kills an argument is when you spout off, use nothing but your own opinion, and change what someone says in order to "make yourself right." And I acknowledged to abyzmul that it wasn't a very good example. Try keeping up. Reading isn't that hard. I've repeatedly said that he was a bust based on where he was drafted and the position he was drafted for. That said, he was drafted WRONG. By Eric Mangini. Blaming a defensive end for not being an outside linebacker is pretty stupid. John Abraham is a better OLB than he is a 4-3 end. Sure, he had more success out of his natural position than Gholston, but switching a player's position and seeing him degrade at all is on the coach who does it, not the player. Which only tells me that you: 1) Don't watch the games and spout from your ass. 2) Watch, but don't pay any attention. 3) Watch, but only see what you want to see. I'll guess 3. No one is denying he's been bad. Try not making my argument for me. It only makes you look more foolish. As for your bit about his inability to do anything, I'll simply say, you have no clue what he will or won't be able to do. Ahhh, I get it. You say I think Gholston is sexy, paint me as a homosexual, try to disparage me, and raise your fist in victory. That's genius. Really. You don't know shit. And this is where you completely fail at arguing. What I actually wrote was: "The fact is, if a guy has physical talent and a coach finds a way to bring out that talent, he'll be successful. Gholston isn't a 3-4 LB. Fine. He was drafted wrong. That doesn't mean he won't be a very good 3-4 DE though. " If you put quotes around something, it means you're directly quoting someone. If you're going to do that, you're going to have to actually QUOTE WHAT THEY WRITE. I know, silly concept. What I said was, nothing he's done so far as an OLB for the Jets precludes any future performance or lack thereof. He may still suck, but there's no way to know that. And the only miniscule evidence we have of what he might do up front shows that he has the ability to push offensive linemen backwards, and collapse the pocket. Right. And if you wouldn't mind, I'd appreciate it if you could send me the lotto numbers too. I don't bet. Personal policy. As for improvement, it's got nothing at all to do with scheme. WTF are you even arguing? Do you even know? It's about a player completely changing positions. That's not scheme, that's putting a player where he's more suited to play. Would Revis, as great a corner as he is, be a good linebacker? Doubtful. Would Sanchez be a great safety? Probably not. So why does Gholston have no chance to be good at the position he played in college, rather than the one Eric Mangini decided he'd put him in? You might take notice that Mangini is no longer coaching here, and isn't winning where he is. That might tell you something.
Ahh the hypothetical "if this guy moved from Offense to Defense how would he be" debate holds no water here. This is a completely different type of issue we're talking about with Gholston. Those comparisons you're making are downright silly and not pertinent to the Gholston debate at all. We're not talking about a DB going to linebacker or a QB becoming a safety. We're simply talking about Gholston as D end vs OLB which is not like moving a player from the offensive to defensive side of the ball. Then trying to throw Mangini in there. This has solely to do with Gholston's ability on the field. He is not going to magically improve tenfold the way you may foresee happening. His deficiencies are not the kind that go away when you move him from OLB to D End. His deficiencies are much more football fundamentals and they are: -not being able to read and react (always a step late or too slow on getting in on plays) -not being physical enough -overrunning plays -not knowing how to throw his body around and lunge for defenders -not getting to the QB When you play football and watch it as long as I have, these things are easily evident and tell you the whole story about a defender. These are not areas that suddenly change 180 degrees when you switch your position. Especially a switch as minor as OLB to D End He just lacks the overall ability to play at this level. Simple as that. I don't make it a habit to bet on these boards either but I'm quite confident that Gholston will have minimal to no impact on this year's D. I would love to see him do well because I'm a huge fan of the team but I don't want his presence on the field hurting this team and I'm sure it will. Another way to put it is I'd rather have a guy on the field that could have a bigger impact on our D than Gholston and I think there's several players on our roster who will. More of my response is in BOLD in the text of your original response.
^ Agree with all of that. I'm supporting Gholston as far as not bashing him every chance I get until he gives me reason to, but he just has not looked like a football player of NFL caliber. Either that, or he didn't give a shit / didn't want to get hurt. It's infuriating to see him wearing a Jets jersey as he runs around like a chicken with it's head cut off on some plays and standing there with his hands on his hips while other players are scrapping it. He has played the first 2 seasons of his career like a eunuch. That's all the bashing of VG I'm going to until the season starts, but I don't have a lot of hope that he'll ever turn into something at this level.
Anybody who thinks Vernon will ever be a quality NFL player needs to stop watching football, because you just don't understand what it's about.
Bryan Thomas has become a serviceable player. I mean, it is possible. It's not like the guy's never played football before. It could happen.
Like everyone else, I'm disgusted w/ Gholston's performance thus far in his career. But I'm just not sure why it's so important for people to INSIST beyond all logic that he has no chance to succeed at a different position. Everyone is blinded by the lack of production but the guy HAS physical skills...and he has displayed some ability(albeit average) at collapsing the pocket. W/ an extra 20 lbs and a much more simplified role..he might have some success. The guy is still young...and whining,complaining, and crucifying him isn't going to make the situation any better. We can't afford to release him...and simply shunning him and letting him rot away on the bench would be absolutely foolish.You have to show a commitment to player development regardless of what progress they have or havent made.Especially considering all the dough he's being paid. Not many people realize this but Brian urlacher started his career at Outside linebacker rookie year of training camp. He was absolutely atrocious to the point where onlookers at TC were already proclaiming him as a bust. Chicago took a chance and moved him to ILB and the rest is history. I'm not suggesting that Gholston will ever have the impact Urlacher has had..but my point is that position changes can lead to some career redemption. Want other examples? Leonard Davis from OT to G Robert Gallery from OT to G Antrel Rolle from CB to S Calvin pace from 4-3 DE to 34 OLB Brandon Moore from DT to G Riich Gannon from WR to QB Some of these guys were considered just as much of busts as Gholston is. But sometimes change leads to success...other times it doesn't. but w/ the amount VG is being paid..just letting him rot away is absolutely foolish.
How important are instincts as a defensive end? It's not like he's a slob; he's a workout warrior. The problem I saw last season was that he was a spaz when he was running around in space. With his hand on the ground, I would think that would minimize that weakness.
Again, you're assuming a lot. I'm not arguing that he's ever going to the Pro Bowl. The thread title says that Gholston will be a servicable DE this year. And I agree with that. Period. Assume no more than that. He doesn't need to read and react in the position he'll be in. He's simply going to be in to bull-rush the QB, which he has done, and shown some compentency doing. He's physical enough to do the job he's going to be asked to do. I hold out hope he'll be better than that, but I also won't hold my breath. All of that is fine. And really, it's the opposite of what I've been doing. Just like you have little hope but won't bash him, I have a bit of hope and won't praise him. In the end, we're not all that far apart on the subject. This is what I'm saying. People might remember I was always in Thomas' corner as well. Expecting him to live up to his draft slot is stupid at this point. Hoping he can contribute to a position we're very thin at isn't. Exactly. Honestly, I hadn't even thought about those guys. Good points. And that's what Rex is betting on. Just like I said they should have done last year. You'll never see me say Gholston is a good football player. But he is a good athlete, and has potential to be an effective 3-4 end.
Two things: 1) Yeah, obviously he's in the wrong defense. There isn't much we can do about that now. Thank Erik Mangini for being a total asswipe with this pick. But that's spilled milk, and we have to make the best of it. (IIRC, I wanted Ellis in that draft.) 2) He's only 260lbs, but it's all muscle. The key is whether they can teach him to effectively use it to push forward against blockers. I'm a fan of strength over size, so I don't see his weight as the same problem others do. Not at a position where his responsibility is to overpower someone who is trying to hold him back.
I like the move because if you analyse Gholstons few snaps at NT he was able to hold the pivot against man on man and tie up the blocker case in point he won't demand double teams on the outside but will provide leverage in a role where he will not have to rely heavily on instincts, a cover your gaps and get after it type of role is what he did at OSU. Another thing in particular I noticed was that Gholston was never seen on the ground when the play was coming at him he just didn't shed the blocker and make the tackle.
Whatever the argument, this is Gholston's last chance. If he does not show anything, his NFL career may well be over.
Maybe him and the Pillsbury Throwboy should head out of the country. The obviously stole millions of dollars.
