Brandon Moore was undrafted and he was a DLman in college and when he first started playing in the NFL. Draft position doesnt always mean that much for guards
Brandon Moore didn't play until his third year after college ball (he played in college through 2001, wandered from team to team in '02, was on the Jets practice squad for almost all of '03 except for one start, and started in '03). He kind of proves my point.
They needed to beef up the line and add depth. They've done both in the last 2 years. As far as Faneca, I like him as much as the next guy but as someone said on here...IMHO it's better to cut a guy 6 months too early than 12 months too late.
You guys are insane if you think there is more than a small chance that a sixth round pick at guard is going to be ready to start as a second year player. Since 2000 18 guards have been picked in the sixth round. Only one (Donald Thomas)was going to start as a rookie (he got hurt); only three (Thomas, Reggie Wells, and Rex Hadnot) became regular starters as second year players. A fourth, Jeremy Bridges, played a lot in his second year when other lineman get hurt on a truly terrible terrible Arizona team but didn't consistently start until much later in his career. Four of the others others became starters later in their careers. Nine (all drafted in '06 or before) have never been starters. Slauson is the only person unaccounted for. [I would have linked to this but my post count is too low; it's on pro football reference, search draft history] So, excluding Slauson, three out of seventeen sixth round picks became starters as second year players and that's what we expect of Slauson? And only three of the eight who did became starters did so as second year players so you can't really say he's going to break through now or he's doomed.
How many of those 18 guards, had the best offensive line coach in football (Bill Callahan) as (a) their o-line coach year one in the NFL, (b) as their head coach for 4 years of college? Not to mention the fact Callahan both lobbied for Slauson's selection last year, but also let Tannenbaum know that he had enough belief in Slauson's talents, that he could be in competition for the starting LG spot, and support the release of a 9 time pro bowler, as a result.
He's a 6th round pick - he will fail. Ducasse is 6'4" instead of 6'7". He will be a guard. Simple logic. lol
Your argument is "Simple logic. lol" I'll respond in kind: That's some crazy logic, showing that histricly mst 6 rd pcks at guard don't play in yr 2!!!! Me can hav empirical evidence lol!!!!! Your argument that I said Slauson "will fail" is a stawman-nvr st8ted that. Yr pst==epic fail!!!
Tell me again how Ducasse can't play right tackle because of his height. That was sweet. Your argument is pretty much throwing out circumstances behind our current guard situation and telling people it won't happen because it doesn't happen often. Mostly because you are latching onto Ducasse as a starter for some reason even though he has never played a strict zone scheme and Slauson has, even though our OL coach hand-picked Slauson last year because of that scheme, even though it was stated clearly that it would be a competition. I'm not guaranteeing anything about Slauson's chances to take the starting job at LG this year, but your argument - ignoring the team situation for a historical statistic - really doesn't do shit to make me think he won't do it. All it does is make me root for him.
When did I say he can't play RT? I wrote "Ducasse is shorter than the ideal RT but I could certainly see them moving him over there in time." Is it possible that Slauson is ready to start in his second year? Yes. I never said otherwise. Is it possible that he beats out Ducasse? Of course. I never said otherwise I'm just saying it's not particularly likely; sixth round picks rarely are ready to start as second years, second round picks are frequently ready to start as rookies, and NFL teams don't go and and spend second round picks on offensive linemen if (a) they're comfortable at all five oline positions or (b) if they don't think the rookie is going to start.
How often do NFL teams go out and spend 1st round picks on a cornerback when they are comfortable at both starting cornerback postions?
One year does not a statistic make, however the 4 of 6 that you mention from 2009 were drafted in the upper half of the second round in a OL heavy draft. If you go back over the past 15 years OL drafted in the second half of the second round have a very low starting ratio their rookie seasons. Again, Vlad has a huge upside, but he's relatively new to football and has a huge hole in his pass blocking. Will he be our opening day starter? Possibly, But I'm far from sold on the Hype as being a sure thing starter. in 2009 6 OL were selected in the second round, 2 started 16 games, 2 started 15 games, and the last two started a combined 12 games in 2008 the two OL selected in the second round started a combined 19 games. in 2007 the five OL seleced in the second round 2 started 16 games, 1 started 14 games and the last two combined for 14 starts. in 2006 of the 8 OL selected in the second round 1 started 16 games. 1 started 15 (I believe he suffered an injury game), 1 started 13 games. the remaing 5 combined for combined for 28 starts, and one of those 5 started 12 games so in reality half the second round players selected started a combined total of 16 games, or an average of 4 games each. in 2005 5 Ol went in the 2nd round. 1 started 16 games, 1 started 12 games, the remaining 3 acccounted for a total of 13 starts. in 2004 4 OL went in the 2nd round 1 started 11 games, the remaing 3 accounted for 17 total starts. in 2003 4 OL went in the 2nd round, 1 started 15 games, the remaining 3 accounted for a total of 1 combined start. in 2002 6 OL went in the 2nd round, 1 started 16 games, 3 started 14 games, the last two accounted for 13 starts. in 2001 3 OL went in the 2nd round, 1 started 16 gamess, 1 started 12 games and one started none. in 2000 8 OL went in the 2nd round, 3 started 16 games 1 started 10 games, and the last 4 accounted for a combined total of 13 starts. In short over 10 years of drafting 51 OL were picked in the 2nd round. Of those 51 Ol taken 20 started as many as 13 games or 15 of those started 15 or 16 games. So only 39% of second rounders started as many as 13 games, 29% started atleast 15 games. 11 started 16 games their rookie seasons, or 21%. So perhaps my discription of what was it, 10% or somethign like that, was low, it was nowhere near as low as your claim of a second rounder being a sure fire starter when at best you can argue 39% (assuming all of those between 13-and 15 starts were opening day starters) and at worst can argue 21% Either it's not even a 50/50 shot in the second round. and when you factor in the top half vs the bottom half of the second round the numbers get even more slim. Go back to school, your surefire is way offbase son.
Actually, NFL teams draft a third corner (or fifth defensive back) all the time. Because teams run so many sub packages (most teams have five or more defensive backs 50% of the time) you can get plenty of good use out of a good fifth defensive back as a rookie and they can become a starter later. Off the top of my head, the Pats (McCourty, Merriweather, Chung in the early second), Saints (Patrick Robinson), Giants (Kenny Phillips) and Chargers (Antoine Cason) have all done this recently. EDIT: 1968jf--a whole bunch of those players who didn't played fewer than 13 games were starters who were injured for a few games (e.g. Matt Light, Tony Ugoh, Barnes, Chris Snee) or players who seized starting spots part of the way into their rookie years (Jake Grove). A few more were players who were never really able to play because of injuries (Jacob Rogers, Bruce Nelson).
I didn't say anything about safeties, so you can go ahead and throw out Kenny Phillips, Merriweather and Chung. I'm not sure if you're trying to tell me that the Patriots and Saints are both solid at the 2 starting corner positions - the Pats have Bodden and who else? Wilhite? ORLY? :wink: The Saints are happy with Tracy Porter apparently, but Greer is a worry for injury and they're moving Malcom Jenkins to safety by most accounts. Both McCourty and Robinson will be competing for starting jobs. The only example that you gave that I agree with is Cason.
Why is drafting a safety when you have two solid starting safeties any different from drafting a corner when you have two corners? [Or, frankly, a third wideout when you run a pro set and have two wideouts, a second running back when you have a starter, etc.]? I know it crushed your argument by anything other than that? It seems like a distinction without a difference. The point is that teams are willing to spend firsts and seconds on on players who are initially going to be back-ups at some positions (like DB) because those players can still get on the field a lot, while they will only rarely spend a first or a second on a back-up offensive lineman because the OL just isn't going to play at all unless you have injuries. The Pats probably start Butler and Bodden. The Saints don't have the best corners in the league but they do have a bunch of guys with starting experience. More teams that picked defensive backs high when they didn't have an immediate need for a starter: Steelers taking McFadden(r2), Colts drafting Jackson (r1), Jennings (r1) and Hayden (r2), Titans and Mike Griffin (r1)(yes, he's a safety), Cowboys and Mike Jenkins (r1).
I'm not seeing where exactly you excluded injury in the initial "calculation." Listen, you threw out a bullshit "one in ten 2nd round rookies start" to begin this argument, I called you on it. Then you modified what you meant by "starter" (opening day starters who always started when healthy!) to justify the "10%." Then you modified the initial "10%" by settling at a "21%" and once more modified "starter" (opening day starters who played the entire season, period!) And now I believe you're going to modify "2nd round" to "lower second round," right? I'm going to drop this, but only because "your surefire is offbase" confuses me more than your constant criteria changes.
