Agreed on all points except for the throwing the #6 pick thing (just keeping things in perspective). But like I said, I hope to be wrong. Actually, I just hope to have things to root for this season. Actually, I'm just really happy to be watching and talking about football! OK, enough said.
It's gonna be baby steps w/ Gholston. He's finally starting to make some strides. He may never be a dominant player...but I think now..he'll develop into a good situational player...and in a scheme like rex's in which you always look for unique talents/roles to create mismatches..long term he could become a valuable commodity. Perhpa snot worth his overall salary or draft position..but i now feel he'll at least be a contributor in some light.
FTR: I'm not slobbing his knob that he's going to be starting these first 4 weeks. Given the choice, I'd rather he were subbing in once per set of downs for Pace. Unfortunately, we don't have that luxury, and he'll rotate with Westerman. We're not going to get what we'd get with Pace for 2-3 downs at a time, but we have to live with that. I do think the fact that he has shown progression is worthwhile to note though. He's not currently a first round talent. That sucks, but there's nothing we can do about that. I want him to keep progressing though, and I see signs that he is. I'll take that for now, given that the alternative is that he sucks and we pay him to sit. You are correct. He was forced to remain in school due to regulations. That's why he missed mini camp. He was far behind by the time the season started through no fault of his own. (Though rumors abounded that he couldn't learn the schemes.) And yes, this whole "He wuz teh # sixes pix in teh furst rund" BS has got to stop already. He was picked where Mangini wanted to pick him. Why is that Gholston's fault? Who here would say "Look man, I know you want me at #6, but I should really be a second-round guy"?
James Farrior was drafted #8 by Parcells and failed to make much of an impact until he was in his contract year and then walked to go to the Steelers. Ask any Steelers fan and I'm sure they'll tell you that they're happy he's there. Calvin Pace was a 1st round pick (in the teens I think) and it took him several years to get going as well. I think peoples' expectations for Gholston were just way too unrealistic, and still are.
My biggest gripe w/the guy is he seems to give up on plays a lot of the time. If he's getting a good push and someone comes in to double team him, he just quits instead of continuing to fight. I see what appears to be him giving up a lot, and it's usually when he's close to the QB! I don't really understand why he would do that, but it's definitely something that's coach-able. Hopefully Rex can fix that shit.
See, here I'll take issue. Neither Farrior nor Pace had a first year with, what, 8 overall tackles, only 5 of those solo? (I know I'm wrong here but too lazy to go get the actual stats). If he were even mediocre, I'd be pissed for sure, but not irrate. Or maybe I would be, but that's cause I'm a hater. That said, I don't like the Gholston/Suggs/Pace/Farrior (Farrior is knew though! I applaud you for thinking outside the box, that could have been a nice analogy since I was always partial to Farrior). I don't think people are on Gholston's ass because he was sub-par. He was and has been (last night and the Carr hit are the exception), REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY bad!
I actually like and agree with the red. I think you misapprehend the "he wuz teh # sixes pix in teh furst rund" point, and since I am one of the chief Gholston haters who makes this point, I'll refine it. A first round pick comes with a certain expectation. Analogous, I guess, for all of us non-billionaires, to going out to an expensive ass restaurant to eat. I may get a good meal and ambiance worthy of, say, McDonalds. But if I'm dropping $500 for a damn meal, I better be in a beautiful fucking atmosphere getting first class service and food so good it makes me leak a little pre-cum in my pants! Yes, it wasn't his fault where he was drafted. Much like it wasn't Akili Smith's fault, or Ryan Leaf, or hell, even David Carr (no, I'm not saying Gholston has already reached their levels of disappointment, though I can very well see it happening). I just think, when you get a mediocre guy late who blossoms, even slowly, you're hella impressed. When you get a high first round guy who "blossoms" into maybe one day he might be sorta mediocre, it's just not a good feeling. I should give up on my Gholston obsession on my work free Saturday and go to other threads, but I do like the debates that stay respectful (which these seem to have so far).
Bottom line: Right now, Gholston sucks, not worthy of a #6 pick, and is making too much money for his production. Some of you really need to calm down about his preseason performance of how good he looked against a bunch of 2nd and 3rd team scrubs. You're trying WAY too hard to find bright spots. Only time will tell if he can ever become the pass rush machine we dream of, or the Justin Miller disgrace we fear.
You're assuming he'll never blossom. I'm the sole person here going out on a limb and saying I believe he's going to be a great player. (Maybe Scik would agree, I don't know.) I don't think he's going to remain mediocre. I'm simply going to be happy if he can give us a serviceable performance over the next month while we wait for Pace to return. Then, I fully expect him to mature into a very good linebacker over the course of the remaining 12 games, as well as the 16 in 2010. I firmly believe that the only thing missing from him is attitude. I don't think he's lazy, as has been mentioned here by others. He looks up at the screen after every play to review himself. He wants to improve. If Rex (or better yet, Bart) can just light a fire under his ass and get him wound up like a Vick dog, Gholston will be a beast. He was pushing forward last night. He wasn't just taking it. Though I was pissed when he didn't retaliate for getting thrown to the ground and sat on and then getting hit from behind and landing face first on special teams. Those are the events that have to get him pissed off and looking for blood. Revenge is a powerful motivator, and he needs to learn to use it.
The point is that it takes some players longer than others to "get it". And here are Pace's stats: YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD 2003 ARI 16 32 25 7 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 2004 ARI 14 12 8 4 4 4.5 2 0 0 0 0 2005 ARI 5 11 8 3 0 1.0 0 0 0 0 0 2006 ARI 16 31 27 4 1 1.0 2 0 0 0 0 2007 ARI 16 98 80 18 6 6.5 1 0 1 14 0 2008 NYJ 16 80 62 18 3 7.0 5 50 0 0 0 He was nothing special, not even close, until his 5th year in the league if you just want to go by stats. He also wasn't switching positions as a rookie. He didn't become a LB until his 5th year in Arizona but was a DE in college if I recall and played DE as a rookie. Here are Farrior's stats, but again, he wasn't switching positions either: YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD 1997 NYJ 16 70 52 18 1 1.5 2 0 0 0 0 1998 NYJ 12 28 17 11 1 0.0 0 0 0 0 0 1999 NYJ 16 40 30 10 2 2.0 1 0 0 0 0 2000 NYJ 16 55 45 10 5 1.0 1 0 1 0 0 2001 NYJ 16 142 106 36 9 1.0 3 0 2 84 0 Then you have LaMarr Woodley in Pittsburgh: YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD 2007 PIT 13 14 14 0 0 4.0 1 0 0 0 0 2008 PIT 15 60 41 19 2 11.5 2 9 1 6 0 Not exactly a lot of tackles either, but took a major jump in his 2nd year. Lawrence Timmons, again in Pittsburgh: YEAR TEAM G TOT SOLO AST PD SACK FF REC INT YDS TD 2007 PIT 16 13 11 2 0 0.0 0 0 0 0 0 2008 PIT 16 65 43 22 3 5.0 1 0 1 89 0 Definitely "got it" after a non-impactful rookie season too. I'm not saying I'm not disappointed by Gholston so far, but I still feel peoples' expectations are just way too unrealistic. The point is that he was switching positions last year, for a coach who really never appeared to coach up any players. I've never seen Mangini in any clip actually working with a player the way that Ryan does with his players. I really think he was completely misused last year. Look at all these other players who didn't really get it their first year. There are more players who struggle their first years than those that excel.
What about people who are all over Westerman's jock with his performance against 2nd and 3rd team scrubs? On Westerman's sack last night, Vick was turning away from Gholston, right into Westerman, but all anyone talks about is Westerman's sack. It works both ways. If people are allowed to be optimistic about Westerman's game, and I do think he's played well, then people are allowed to be optimistic about Gholston's as well.
Agree on your optimisim point. BUT, Gholston was the 6th overall pick and Westerman was a UFA. Thus expectations are way higher with gholston than westerman, and the fact that they are playing on the same level is what's so freaking irritating.
I think the problem we have with this part of your post is... what is your definition of 'servicable'? If teams are running at him and kicking his ass most of the game, but he gets a sack or 2 here and there, and maybe a few pressures, what would you consider that?
As is people beating the fuck out of the dead horse that is Gholston isn't playing like a 6th overall pick.
I understand that, but people really need to get off of the #6 pick thing. It is what it is. Remember, some people are calling for Westerman to start instead of Gholston, but it's based on his performances against the same 2nd and 3rd stringers that Gholston is going against.
You mean what John Abraham used to do when he was here? He always played the pass first. He's decent against the run now, but that wasn't the case when he was younger. I'm not saying Gholston will become as good of a passrusher as him, but a lot of passrushers struggle against the run in the beginning.
Gholston has the physical tools, instruction from one of the best defensive minds in the NFL, and the support of his teammates. The one thing he's missing is the motivation/hunger to succeed as a pass rusher. I was of the opinion that you either have this quality or you don't...there's no middle ground. But I could very well be incorrect in that assumption. VG could be quite simply...a late bloomer. Unfortunetly, the fanbase won't allow him to progress in his own way....and I'm guilty of this line of thinking as well. But i'm starting to put a little more thought into this.......we know Gholston is quite capable....it's just going to take time. We could bitch till we're blue in the face...but it won't make a difference. WSW alluded to the point that VG IS a New York Jet....and he's not going anywhere, anytime soon. So we might as well make the best of it....support him.....and hope to god that he blossoms into a Demarcus Ware/Shawn Merriman type player.
