Murrell: you are one of my favorite posters on here but you are way off base on this issue. Who cares if his passes were short? I'm going away for a long weekend so you guys have fun w/ this. I'll pick it up again when I get back.
You neglected to note that Vanderjagt missed a GW FG attempt in OT in the 2000 AFC Div game. Miami had a good defense and didn’t choke that day..What’s the point of bringing up the historically choking defense when they played a great game that day and were a very good defense to begin with? The 2003 game against NE was after two of the greatest Playoff Game performances in the history of the league. Law had his number that day. I tip my cap to Law on two of those INTs as he baited Manning. But if memory serves me correctly the League did act to reinforce the 5 yards down field penalty because of that game. Just pointing that out. You neglected to add that there were TWO fumbles by Indy receivers and that the Indy D did not get off the field. You neglected to point out that Manning got his team in position for a game tying FG and Vanderjagt missed it which prompted them to get NE hero Adam Vinatieri. He threw THREE TDs in the 2007 game against SD and only missed on 5 passes. The defense gave up 28 points. This same Chargers defense would INT Brady THREE times the following week. Sometimes Defenses are just that good. You blame Manning for not getting a First down on 3rd & 2 from their own 9 yard line but make no mention that the TE missed his block that forced a sack. That’s not Manning’s fault.
I just have more respect for a QB that moves the ball with his arm and not the legs of his recievers. You put more emphasis on what they do as a team (win) and what they do in the postseason. That's fine I just think there's more to it. We just view the position completely different. Enjoy the long weekend!! :up:
Marvin Harrison was a mediocre 1st round WR who didn't break out until Mannings second year when he became an all pro and a fixture in the pro bowl. Mediocre prior to Mannings arrival and Mannings rookie year. Marshal Faulks recieving yards and catches practically doubled in Mannings first year from his previous production. Prior to that he was used primarily as the feature back and cought balls but basically screens and dumps. After Manning arrived he became a huge threat out of the backfield and had a 1000 yard season in receptions in Mannings second season. It was one of the keys to the trade for the Rams. Wes Welker lead the league in catches with Cassell passing to him. Randi Moss lead the league in TD's with 3 QB's Cunningham, Culpepper and Brady.
Manning has led the league almost every year...yes, go down that road. And he had 50 TD passes, not over 50. Manning had 49. Let's quit embellishing.
Vanderjagt missed a 49 yd FG, hardly a chip shot. In the first half Indy turned Miami over 3 times including 2 deep in Miami territory and Peyton could only lead them to 10 pts on those 3 TOs. Miami's D didn't choke that D b/c they were outchoked by the that great choker Peyton Manning. Who cares what he did in the WC rd and div rd against Denver which hadn't won a palyoff game since Elway retired and KC which hadn't won a playoff game since Montana was their QB. He was awful against NE and cost his team a chance at the SB. So there were 2 fumbles by Indy receivers? That meant peyton, w/ more possessions than Brady, couldn't hold onto the football and even out the TOP? 3 TDs against SD and 2 killer INTs which cost them AT LEAST 6 points and they lost by 4. The Indy D stopped a SD drve w/ an INT in the 1st qtr when they picked off Rivers at the Indy 24, Indy would fumble it back and that led to 7 of SDs 28 pts. The bottom line is Peyton threw 2 killer INTs ad they lost by 4. It's not just the 3rd and 2. He had 3 downs to lead them to a first down and couldn't do it. I have more respect for a QB that nakes plays when they matter and steps up rather than shrinks in big games. Marvin Harrison was mediocre? The guy had 14 TDs his first 2 seasosn w/o Peyton. That's not mediocre. Faulk's recs doubled b/c they threw more and Peyton was a rookie dumping it off to his backs more. Faulk's yard per in 1998 was 10.6, it would go up to 12 the next year, he'd have more recs, more yds and more TDs than he did in his career. Faulk averaged 53 recs his first 4 years, he was always a threat out of the backfield. Welker is a glorifed RB catching passes. he will always catch alot of passes but w/ a terrible yards per avg. Welker caught 111 passes in 2008 w/ 3 TDs, he caught 112 in '07 w/ 8 TDs. he had 1 TD rec in his career going into 2007. harrison had 14 i 1996 and 1997 as he was developing. Manning plays at least half his games in domes. He rarely has to worry about weather and when he does(like the Meadowlands or NE in January) he's terrible.
A 49 yard FG is one yard worse than the 48 yarder Brady left Vinateri in SB XXXVI and only 4 worse than the one he left him in a blizzard! Sometimes you get beat. I would expect anyone to realize that. It doesn’t mean someone chokes, but you seem to want to put the blame all on Manning. Are we or are we not using Postseason to evaluate each of these guys right now? Why cut out certain performances? That doesn’t mean he had more possessions than Brady. That same D intercepted Brady 3 times the following week and only lost because they couldn’t score in the Red Zone when they didn’t have their best RZ players (Tomlinson and Gates) They started the drive FROM THEIR OWN 1 YARD LINE! They ran the ball twice and he got sacked on 3rd and 2. Well, you and I disagree on who made those plays for New England.
Vinatieri is a much better K, we know that. I'll give Peyton a pass b/c back then we didn't know what a choker Vanderjagt was BUT he got a ton of Tos and didn't do much w/ it and did nothing in the 2nd half of that game. Manning was great in those 2 games in '03 but does that trump how awful he was in the title game? He had 10 possessions as did Brady except Brady's 10th was taking a knee so in actuality Brady only had 9. LT and Gates were hurting against Indy too, Indy lost against SD's backup QB and RB. He's calling the plays, right? W/o the QB leading the K in position for a FG how can the K make meaningful FGs? How many has AV made in Indy w/ Peyton?
Tom Moore was calling the plays. He sends in three and Peyton makes a decision after he sees what the defense is giving him. Again, I don't think he was put in those positions because of Brady (or at least not a majority of the reason being Brady as you've suggested). He kicked 5 FGs against the Ravens in the 2006 AFC Divisional Game. But I'm not going to suggest that he was put in the position to make those FGs because of Manning. I'm also not going to bash Manning for not getting TDs in that game.
Manning gets all the credit when the offense works but when it doesn't it's Tom Moore's fault? How did NE get in FG position for AV to tie/win games? Did they just place the ball at the yard line he needed it at?
Please don't change the subject. You said Manning called the plays. I said he did not. JR Redmond, Troy Brown and Jermaine Wiggins had more to do with the yardage gained than Tom Brady. That's a fact.
Who changed the subject? I always hear about how one of the reasons people tale Manning over Brady is b/c he calls his own plays but now you are deflecting that to Tom Moore b/c he failed yet again in a big spot. So I guess the C directly snapped the ball to those receivers? I can't believe you do not understand what Brady did especially in the SL SB.
That's never been my argument. And what QB / coach would ever throw the ball from their own 1 or 7 up by 3 with 2:41 left in the game? To even consider blaming Manning in that spot - especially when on 3rd and 2 he gets sacked from the blindside due to a missed block - is ridiculous on all levels. I know what he did. He dumped the ball off to Redmond and Wiggins and made one decent throw over the middle to Troy Brown who ran up and across the field to get out of bounds. You seriously want me to believe that Tom Brady is the reason Vinateri was in position to kick a 48 yard FG - mind you - to win the game? Brady isn't even the reason the Pats were tied at that point to begin with. I understand what Brady did in that Super Bowl, and like I've said a hundred times it's unimpressive to say the least.
I always looked at Manning calling his own plays as one of the reasons he has been less successful in the playoffs. Brady had the advantage early in his career of having an expert call the plays. The more they have asked Brady to handle the play calling as he has matured the less succesful he has had in the playoffs. Manning on the other hand had to both QB and run the O. It's not a coincidence that he got better in the playoffs while Brady has gotten worse.
What QB/coach would ever throw the ball twice to the EZ on 3rd and 2 from the opp 28 w/ time running down and behind by 3? Let's move on then, it makes no sense to argue this point if you think what Brady did on that drive was unimpressive. Brady has been better than Manning in recent yeras but it's hard to get better than Brady was a few years ago and it's hard to be worse than Manning was early in his career. Keep in mind that Brady has never been one and done in the playoffs which is something peyton has done each of the last 2 postseasons.
We've already determined that Vanderjagt was an unreliable kicker. Makes sense to me. And I'm so sure that trying to win the game when you are in legitmate FG range is a bad thing either.
Last years Indy team was a pile of mediocrity carried by Manning. Brady sandwiched 2 SB teams with a trip to play golf before the playoffs began in 02. You also completely ignore the cheating by the Pats. Since the Pats were cought Brady has not been close to the same QB in the playoffs as he was earlier in his career.
Wouldn't it make more sense to move the chains and get into better FG position if the K is unreliable? You are right. How could any QB win w/ Addai and Rhodes in the backfield and scrubs like reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, marvin Harrison, and Anthony Gonzalaez to throw to while your D is 7th in PA and 11 in YA. Clearly no QB but Manning could ever have gotten that team to 12 wins then guided them to a loss against an 8 win team in the playoffs:drunk: Brady has ONE season where he didn't lead his team to the playoffs and in that season he led his team to a tie for the division and lost on a tiebreaker. Peyton has led Indy to miss the playoffs twice and they won 9 games total in those 2 seasons. We have no idea how the cheating helped NE and no idea how many teams did it. W/ all that said they were caught in week 1 of 2007 and finihsed that season 16-0 and a minute away from their 4 th SB title so how was he not the same QB?
