Has Irvin had post career issues? I know he had the cocaine issue during g his career but never spent time in jail like Gastineau has. Also I feel the only reason Jim Tyrer isn't in the HOF is because of the murder suicide.
Many people feel the Bob Hayes induction took so long due to his drug problems and that the current group of voters didn't care as much about the off-field stuff and that is maybe why he finally made it. But who really knows? (How much the group of voters has changed in the past 5-10 years, I don't know.) Perhaps problems during or post career are not scrutinized as much these days. Anyway, I personally don't feel Gastineau was great. He was certainly adept at rushing the passer, but was not great elsewhere. He was maybe better against the run then most give him credit for, but was not special in that regard (many people give him very little credit in regards to stopping the run, whereas I'll admit that he was at least adequate in that regard: Joe Benigno is the only person who I have heard who actually goes as far as to say Gastineau was good in that area). As for Jim Marshall- solid player, but not spectacular. He does not belong in the PFHOF, but I can understand why he was at least a finalist at one time. He was solid and played on many playoff teams and all that stuff, had the consecutive games streak, blah blah blah.
I know this is a little off topic but I think you would be the best person to discuss this with. A) do you agree with me that Jim Tyrer should be in the HOF? And B) what other AFL players should be in? I say Lionel Taylor, Tyrer, Winston Hill and I'll go as far as to say Art Powell deserves consideration.
kLECKO!!!!!! I luv Freeman Mcneil what a class act and the guy played hurt------so many come to mind but those 2 jump at me
I never saw Hill play but I believe he played in 8 Pro Bowls..... how many LT's that play in today's era play in 8 PB's, blocked for a HOF QB and won a SB would not get elected to the HOF? My guess is every single one of them would be in? To compare.... Orlando Pace won a SB, played in 7 PB's and blocked for a borderline HOF QB in Warner and a HOF RB in Faulk.... is there any doubt that he isn't a first ballot guy?
You can't compare a guy who played for the Cowboy's and a guy who played for the Jets... Irvin also won 3 SBs and played on an amazing group of teams. I don't think he is a HOF WR but certainly putting himself on ESPN and being visable didn't hurt either..... He was a very good WR but I don't think he is or ever was an elite WR. He only played in 5 PB's and only caught 100 passes once. Here is how far those 3 SB rings go.... Henry Ellard has more receptions, more yards and the same amount of TD's and he probably won't get in to the HOF.
1) Klecko 2) Marvin Powell 3) Mickey Shuler 4) Lance Mehl ( too bad the turf monster cut his career short)
It's hard to take the author of the article seriously when he doesn't bother to go back more than 10 years. Klecko and Walker should be at the top of any list.
This is such a terrible list, the fact that Dedric Ward was on it at all proves that. Vinny had one great year in his career, he never came close to that one year in any of his other 30 or so seasons. Certainly Klecko deserves to get in, I never saw Hill play but based on his numbers it is a travesty that he is not already in. A name I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned is Aaron Glenn, he is not a hall of famer but certainly is deserving in being in this kind of conversation. He was one of the best Jet defenders of the last 20 years. I'm also surprised to hear people calling Mawae borderline, IMO he is a lock. He was the best at his position for over a decade, that is HOF worthy.
Joe Klecko is the only player in professional football history to be selected to the Pro Bowl at three different positions. Defensive end, Tackle and Nose guard. It's a travesty that he hasn't been selected to the HOF.
You are correct. They were different types of receivers. Ellard was a shorter speed receiver whereas Irvin did everything- deep routes, across the middle, blocked well, etc. That fact that Irvin only had one 100 catch season doesn't mean much of anything. In 1991 he led the NFC (second overall in the NFL) in receptions with fewer than 100. Ellard played in 228 games. Irvin played in 159 games. In 69 additional games, Ellard only caught 64 more passes than did Irvin.
Jim Tyrer should have been inducted because he's got enough accolades. He received All-Pro recognition in 10 different seasons. That's pretty good. Johnny Robinson, Jerry Mays, Otis Taylor, and Winston Hill are probably the next best AFL players who aren't in the PFHOF. Hill was never a consensus 1st team All-Pro. That hurts his cause. I believe Robinson and Tyrer are the most decorated AFL players who are not in the PFHOF. There are three interesting players who I should mention here. These three guys were all dominant for three seasons. Miller Farr turned in phenomenal seasons at cornerback for the Oilers from 1967-69. In 1967, Farr intercepted 10 passes for 264 yards and returned 3 for touchdowns. He only allowed one touchdown to be scored against him. As a team the 1967 Oilers defense gained 676 yards on interception returns. They scored six touchdowns on interception returns and only allowed 10 touchdowns through the air. In 1968, most teams didn't even bother throwing near Farr. He was the Nnamdi Asomugha of the era. Farr did pick off 3 passes in 1968. He returned them for 104 yards and 2 scores. George Webster had great seasons at linebacker for those same three Oilers teams. Rich (Tombstone) Jackson was 1st team All-AFL in 1968 and 1969 and then in the NFL in 1970. Webster dropped off from his great play and was not much more than a solid player over the course of the rest of his career (1970-76). Due to injuries, Jackson had an abbreviated 7-year, 82-game career. Farr had a 9-year career. He played for the Broncos, Chargers, Oilers, Cardinals, and Lions. He finished with 35 interceptions for 578 yards and 6 TDs.
My point was that if you switch Irvin and Ellard in uniform only and they have the same stats which guy is in the HOF and which guy is in the hall of very good? Playing for Dallas and being extremely visible at all points during and after his career is what got him into the HOF. I'm not taking away any of his accomplishments because he was very good but I don't think he is HOF good.
The fact that No. 75 Winston Hill is not in the PFHOF is pretty much a sad joke. Hopefully he will make it in from the Seniors Committee. Gerry Philbin was probably one of the top 2 DEs in AFL History and he deserves some consideration too.
Maybe I'm just a WR guy but I really believe Lionel Taylor should be in. And I can't believe I forgot Johnny Robinson.
Well, they have similar enough career numbers as far as receptions, receiving yards, yards per reception, and touchdowns are concerned. However, Irvin accumulated his numbers in significantly fewer games and did so for generally better teams (Ellard played for Rams playoff teams in 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1988, and 1989; from 1990-98 the only playoff team he played for was the 1998 Patriots and they dumped him in October of that season if I recall correctly). Irvin averaged 4.7 receptions per game and 74.9 receiving yards. Ellard averaged 3.6 catches and 60.4 yards. We'll throw out the 1998 season when Ellard played in 7 total games with NE and WAS as a backup. In the other years in the 1990s, Ellard was a regular starter with pathetic or mediocre Rams and Redskins teams. Five of his seven 1000 yard seasons came in the 1990s. He also had a 945 yard effort in 1993. I contend that Ellard's stats would not look as good if he had played for better teams during the second half of his career. I betcha he put up a lot of garbage stats from 1990-97 in the 2nd half of blowout games where the other team wasn't all that interested. Certainly, he made big plays early in games, but, at some level, there has to be a garbage element to his numbers from the 1990s. Let's look at 1994, for instance. Cowboys- 12 wins, 4 losses Redskins- 3 wins, 13 losses Irvin- 79 catches, 1241 yards, 15.7 avg, 6 TDs Ellard- 74 catches, 1397 yards, 18.9 avg, 6 TDs Remember, the Redskins were also pathetic in 1993. That was the Richie Petitbon year. In 1994, the Redskins had a last place schedule, back when such a thing meant something. The awful Buccaneers were on the 1994 Redskins schedule twice and the only AFC teams they had to play were 1993 bottom feeders Indianapolis and Seattle. So the question is whose line was better? Their numbers were similar enough, but Irvin played for a much better team. How often was Irvin even targeted in 4th quarters of games? The Cowboys had some big blowout wins that year. How many times did Ellard make 20+ yard receptions with his team down by two scores with 4 minutes remaining in a game? You probably get my point. Just from the eyeball test, Irvin was a much better player. Was Irvin a top 10 all time WR? Not in my opinion. I do think he deserves his spot in the PFHOF, however. Also, be careful with Pro Bowl honors. I try to avoid mentioning Pro Bowls if possible. Art Monk, for instance, got screwed out of Pro Bowl spots multiple times due to the fact that voting was finished in November. Look up some of Monk's December numbers. He came up big late in seasons. Look at the fact that Ken O'Brien made the Pro Bowl in 1991. Then look at his 1991 numbers. All time great Ray Nitschke made one Pro Bowl. Bengals cornerback Ken Riley received All-Pro recognition in four different seasons (1975, 1976, 1981, 1983) and was a consensus 1st team choice in 1983. Guess what? He was never a Pro Bowler. Two notes on Riley's All-Pro season of 1983- it was the final season of his 15-year career and the other 1st team cornerback was Lester Hayes EDIT- I forgot to add the fact that Ellard played in three Pro Bowls, but the first time he was selected was as a punt returner. He was only a Pro Bowl wide receiver two times- after the 1988 and 1989 seasons. This is yet another example of why we need to be careful when pointing out how many times a player made the Pro Bowl.
Lionel Taylor was good, so it's fair to say you think he should be in. I actually prefer Otis Taylor over Lionel Taylor. The AFL was a much stronger league from 1965-69 then it was from 1960-64. Otis Taylor (1965-75)- 130 games, 410 rec, 7306 rec yds, 17.8 avg, 57 TDs (consensus 1st team All-AFL in 1966 and 1st team All-NFL in 1971) Lionel Taylor (1959-68)- 121 games, 567 rec, 7195 rec yds, 12.7 avg, 45 TDs (consensus 1st team All-AFL in 1960, 1961, 1965)
Klecko, of course McNeil, I love him but I am not sure if he should be in the Hall. But compared to others that are, you could make a good case.
