Maybe it was the way you read it since you seem to have an issue with a record of 0 and 12 when 0 indicates wins and 12 losses. I wasn't unaware that they made the playoffs twice under Williams. I also wasn't unaware that he left and spent a couple of years in the USFL because he was being paid like a scrub. The Bucs built those playoff teams on three good drafts including getting Lee Roy Selmon with their first every pick followed by Ricky Bell the next year and Williams in year 3. Bell finally started producing in Williams second year as QB when the threat of the deep ball opened up the run. The Bucs never capitalized on their great D by putting enough talent around Williams and resigning him. I'm not sure who on this board thinks Steve Young wasn't a really good QB. I thought for a time he was as complete as anyone I ever saw. He had QB ratings under 60 and at 65 his two years on the Bucs as a young QB with a crappy completion % a terrible TD to INT % and Young was arguably one of the most accurate QB's in league history. Vinny T also didn't do to well on the Bucs. Williams did better than both of them as a young QB facing a lot more anomosity from the fans, the league and the media.
The way you wrote it was odd. You wrote that Williams was with a horrible team, got beat up, and then after healing he played great. Based upon that, I felt that you were talking about him playing great with Washington because he never played great with the Buccaneers. He had putrid postseason performances with them. Also, he was healthy with the Buccaneers. So, the "healing" part had to be a reference to his Redskins days. Whatever. The way you wrote the post was a little off to me based on the context of the debate you had with whoever it was above. Oh; Re: the bolded line- Williams made the playoffs three times with TB. If you are looking for a poster who didn't like Young, it's nyjunc.
I don't know where you are going with any of this or what your point is here. I wasn't stating any opinions. Again, what I responded to this morning was something I didn't feel was clear enough. I was envisioning younger posters reading your post and thinking Williams and the Bucs were a complete bomb. You've cleared it up with these posts of this afternoon. So, it's good now.
I really hated that for Doug Williams. He hasn't gotten the respect or slack, that he has deservedly, deserve so. All because of his color, not for his game play.
I forgot the strike season when they went 5 and 4. They lost to Dallas the day before the Freeman McNeil highlight film. Williams left the Bucs after that game to the USFL.
Williams was very erratic. In that sense, he was an early version of Derek Anderson. He does get much respect for Super Bowl 22, but he was just okay for his career.
Sorry for the confusion. I loved Doug Williams, I thought he got a terribly raw deal all the way around. The guy came out of a small program and was thrown into the fire. I was very glad he got a chance to show how talented he was. I believe if he landed in the right spot and was brought around he would have been a HOF player. I was really responding to the derision he was getting because he had a strong arm. He had a great arm a great body could move well and he had dignity under terrible circumstances. In today's game with the right coaching he would be a super star.
It turned out okay because you presented some quality info on Williams this afternoon. I liked him, too. He was fun to watch because of the big arm and he took chances with the ball. Of course, this led to interceptions. He was indeed very erratic. I was too young to watch him in his Bucs days, but I do remember his days in the USFL and with Washington. He was sloppy with Oklahoma and Arizona, too. That Outlaws team went 6-12 in 1984 and he had more INTs than TDs if I recall correctly. In 1985 he had better numbers and his team was a tad better at 8-10.
Williams ended up in the front office of the Bucs. I saw that he was recently promoted in their scouting department.
I have nothing for respect for Doug Williams and what he went through. I rooted for him in the SB against Denver. I also respect his post-NFL career. What I disagree with is who is being categorized as a "franchise" QB. A franchise QB is a rare player that defines a team, becomes the face of the team, plays at a high level for a number of years, and is an integral part of that team's success. Draft position means nothing. There have been franchise QBs who were late round picks or free agents and first round QBs who have been horrible. One game or one season flashes do not make a franchise QB. One or two great plays in a Super Bowl do not make a franchise QB. Arm strength does not make a franchise QB any more than the ability to run does. I just think that people are throwing around the term too loosely, proclaiming SB winning QBs as franchise when they don't have the resume to back it up, just to prove a point that the Jets need to draft a QB in the first round. I think that would be a stupid move because we have no idea whether a franchise QB is already on the roster. The only way to find out is to let the kids play and see whether one of them has it or not. This should have been done last year, but Woody had to waste a year with the Favre experiment. The Jets shouldn't throw away another draft pick by adding another young QB to the stable. How are they going to tell whether one QB has the goods with Clemens, Ratliff, Ainge, and Sanchez/Freeman all on the roster? You can't really tell if a QB is any good until he plays in regular season NFL games. It's time to give the kids the ball and see if they can play. As for franchise QBs,the bottom line is that there have been numerous teams that have won the SB without that star or franchise QB. To call Plunkett or Williams or McMahon franchise QBs is just not accurate IMO. I am not putting Williams down or diminishing his accomplishments, nor his breaking of the race barrier at QB with his performance in the SB, but he was not good enough for long enough to be a franchise QB.
So the definition of a great QB is based only on what they do in the clutch? Then Marino was not good, because his career playoff stats are ordinary. I guess Jim Kelly sucked too. And Fran Tarkenton. John Elway choked until 1998, I suppose. Football is more of a team sport than any other sport and a QB benefits greatly from his teammates. Roethlesberger is a good QB who has been fortunate to play for Steeler teams with great personnel. I brought up Pennington for a reason, because I knew it would elicit a response like yours. Roethlesberger was horrible in the 2004 playoffs, had one of the worst games in SB history in 2005 (yet his team won, aided by the referees, a long Parker run, and the defense), was horrible in 2006, had a great year in 2007 when the defense took a step back, and was ordinary again in 2008. Yes he played well in the SB, but that does not make him great. The defense carried the 2008 Steelers and put Roethlesberger in a position to win the game. Many many NFL QBs are just not as fortunate. As for your response to this post, I really don't care. If I said the sky was blue, you would disagree.
The fact is that Pennington has never been clutch in the playoffs against top defenses. Roethlisberger has. Pennington is a choker and simply doesn't seem to have what it takes to attack top defenses. They shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence. You wanna talk about Elway who carried his team deep into the playoffs many times? You wanna talk about Kelly who lead his team to 4 straight superbowls? What in the hell?
I wouldn't say they "carried" Big Ben and the offense, but that's what the defense is supposed to do. That's what most defenses have done for great QBs. and those QBs are great because they are put in the position where if they are not great they lose and if they are great they win. See Pennington 2004.
That was all defense and had nothing to do with Kelly's leadership, resiliency or ability to lead a team in the 4th qtr. /sarcasm
You guys remember Doug Williams falling down in the rain and throwing a TD pass from sittting on the ground? That was one of the great clips from his time in Tampa Bay. That year they went to the NFC Championship game and lost to the Rams, I think it was a 9-6 or 9-3 game, no offense. They had a big young defense during that time.
Wasn't Ben a rookie in 04? Didn't Ben play very well to get his team to a SB? Didn't Ben while having a terrible SB game make an incredible athletic play right before the half that turned the game and spread out the Seattle D which created the space for the Parker run? By the way you say that Williams wasn't a franchise caliber QB and yet you admit that football is a team game. You do realize that McCay took Williams a raw player from Grambling and made him the starter day 1. McKay fought the owner to give him a decent contract and the owner refussed and the Bucs went into the tank the first year Williams left and didn't get better QB play from Steve Young or Vinny T. Perhaps the reason many Jets fans, GM's and HC don't want a QB and that many of them become busts is there are so few NFL coaches that have a clue about developing NFL QB and they don't have the patience to develop one because their jobs are on the line. Perhaps that's why Clemens was never really given a chance to develop and if Ratliff doesn't show great ability very quickly he won't get a chance. Maybe your reasoning is exactly why we did get Favre last year even though you hated the move? I thought the Favre move was good because it forced our hand which needed to be forced for this team to eventually move ahead. Drafting a QB in round one does a couple of things. It takes Ryan and in some ways Tannenbaum off the hook for a season or two with the fans. It creates a buzz with the fan base who will want to see this pick get off the bench when the team is not quit good enough to be a serious contender and it gives hope to the future which might help with PSL's? But mostly it gives us a key man to be the face of the team on the field and build a team around to eventually challenge for the title. Without that center piece we aren't building a team we are putting bricks in a wall that will fall down. Tannenbaum has failed so far to address the biggest pressing need on this team and so far Mangini has taken the fall. Shotenheimer was retained by Tannenbaum specifically to develop a QB now. The clock is running and I suspect we will draft a QB in round one just to relieve some of the pressure for the failure to develop a "Franchise" caliber QB on Tannebaum's watch. With all the hype about our D chances are very good that are D will be no better and maybe worse than Miami's, New Englands and maybe even Buffalo's. Miami has a solid veteran and every indication is they like there young QB and will develop him. NE has Brady and a quality young player with a lot of talent behind him. Both of those teams have running backs and WR who are simply better than what we have when healthy. NE has a better OL and DL. The idea that we are going to compete for years in our division with a second rate QB is just nonesense. This is an important draft for the Jets because with the amount of love Tannenbuam has gotten for his great drafts, Clemens is in the last year of his contract and if he washes out both our second and third round picks from his first drafts will be outright busts and if Gholston washes out that makes last years first round pick a bust. That's three first day picks of which only one was a QB bust. The reality is the Jets have drafted busts in the first round at almost every position on the field but the single most pressing need is still a QB. I'm surprised that Namath is your name sake the guy had the goods and with a very good team made big plays to get us to the dance and delivered. I don't disagree that we need a good solid team to win but the idea that we are going to win a SB without a really good QB with a solid NFL caliber arm is just nonesense.
Oddly enough, and I keep posting this, the Jets QB selections in the 1st round have not been close to being "busts"... they've all taken this franchise to the postseason.
You're kidding, right? He drafted Clemens with a high #2 in his first draft, then went out and got Brett Favre last year. It isn't Tannenbaum's fault that Pennington got healthy again and Clemens couldn't beat him out, and it isn't Tannenbaum's fault that Favre's lack of off-season preperation caught up to him at the end of last season. You can say his moves at QB didn't work out but you can't say he didn't address the position. He also brought in Ratliff to develop, who could still become our #1 QB and he drafted Ainge last year. All drafting another QB this year would do is add another unproven hopeful to the back of the line of unproven hopefuls we already have.
Clemens was the third QB taken in that draft that we had the ability to pick for without trading up and has now let him get to his walk year as the only proven QB on the team who has proved nothing. He passed on Cutler he made no move to move up to get Ryan and no move to go down and take Flacco and instead took Gholston last year. I don't blame him for getting rid of Pennington or getting Favre. We got rid of Pennington because management felt he was done. We drafted Clemens because management felt Pennington was probably done. We brought in Favre because management wanted to make a run last year. Tannenbaum has failed to get a QB in here and get the personal in to develop a QB in three drafts where some very good QB's have been drafted, that is his fault and I'm not kidding. People on this board other than maybe Cakes hated the idea of moving up for Ryan last year. People on this board wanted Flacco but not for a 6 pick value. People on this board don't want to draft a QB this year and it appears that Tannebaum feels the same way although I think his hand may be forced this time. This team has come in last and second to last 2 years in a row and is now on HC 2 after 3 years. The failure of Tannenbaum to get a QB to build around is a big part of the problem. Ratliff may be our No. 1. Maybe, maybe not. They are all unproven until they are developed and take their lumps. It is the GM's job to not just bring in the talent but bring in a staff that can develop that talent.
They desperately needed to fix the O-line in the 2006 draft, which is why they took Brick and passed on the other QBs. In hindsight that was a good move, Leinart and Young (who was already taken) haven't done much, Cutler hasn't been to the playoffs yet. None of them would have been successful here without a left tackle to keep them from getting killed. Having Clemens two years into the process is why they didn't draft a QB last year and likely won't this year. Otherwise you go back to square one and all the time Clemens and Ratliff have been here was a waste. They brought in Favre because he came virtually free as Green Bay wanted to get him out of the NFC in the 11th hour, and they saw him as an upgrade from Pennington. If they messed up anywhere it was thinking Pennington was done--both times they did that, assuming you're correct, he went on to be the Comeback Player of the Year. The irony is that had Tannenbaum simply not addressed the position we'd be in better shape than we are now. Once again, you may not like the QBs he's brought in, but he has certainly addressed the position and brought them in. At some point you have to put them in the game, you can't keep drafting new ones and hoping it'll work out two years down the road. We're already two years down the road now.
