The comment about Rothlisberger is one of the dumbest I have ever read on this board. Manning, Simms, Roethlisberger, McMahon, Plunkett, Williams were all first round draft picks and had teams built around them. Plunkett and Williams were not journeyman QB's they were top draft picks who ended up on horrible teams and had the crap beat out of them and both stepped up after healing and played great. Roethlisberger was very good in the playoffs and while he had a horrible stat game in the SB made the play that turned that game around and it was a talent play that maybe 2 or three QB's in the league could make. It turned the game right before the half and they never looked back. McMahon while often hurt was a top 5 pick, won the starting job in year 1 and was one of the best play action QB's in the league and a guy who could throw on the run. He was a key ingredient on the Bears winning the SB on a great defensive team but one that faced great competition. The 86 team was every bit the 85 team except McMahon was hurt and never recorved and the Bears didn't either. The fact is the Jets don't have a QB that they feel good about building around. Right now this team is building around a CB and as good as he is, he ain't Sanders.
and unitas/morral may have been at the end of their careers but were still franchise QBs who got their team to the championship. I'm too young to know that team but from what I've learned the Colts of that time were an nasty offense to deal with. One of the most powerful offenses in that decade. They had to call the shots behind center. So its only 6 QBs out of the 15 presented. 6 out of 43 teams didn't have a QB they built the team around. that's 14% (technically 13.95%) of SBs won without a franchise QB. 86% did win it with franchise QBs... i'm still taking the odds.
I say go with what we have, but spend a fourth round pick on Holbrook for our fourth, possibly fith round pick. Yes it would mean four QBs on the roster again, unless Ratliff really shines and we let KC go in his last year of his contract (which would be fine with me.)
I would add that Bob Griese was a truly great quarterback. His play over the years against the Patriots made a huge impression on me - I think of him as one of the all time greats, and reading this thread I thought "gee, isn't Griese in the hall of fame?" - it is somewhat reassuring to me to see that, of course, he is. I haven't read all this thread but if someone is trying to argue that the Jets could win a championship with a journeyman quarterback, my opinion is that NFL history argues against the likelihood of that happening.
IV seen Chad?s first action on the field in Jacksonville and he didn?t look like a franchise Quarter back. IV seen Ray Lucas rip a team apart and look like the next coming and he was no franchise quarter back. I?m guessing a Franchise quarter back can dominate for a prolonged period of time on every down and every time he gets the ball. O?Brien did that as a Jet, but became very shaky wondering whether he was going to get blasted back there and showed what afflicted Kellen Clemens in his first couple of starts. We need to stay with what we have now and develop our guys. :up:
I know this is blasphemy in Jets circles and I wasn't alive to see it, but statistically, Joe Namath wasn't a franchise QB. He knew how to 'win' and all of that, but that also may have been a product of the solid team he had around him as well. We've had QB's with better stats than Joe Namath. The guarantee and being the QB of the team that won the Super Bowl overrates his legacy. I expect to get lashed at for saying this, but that's my opinion. I'm also very open-minded so if any of you old time Jets fans want to convince me he was truly as great as so many people say he was, I'm all ears. Here's his stats: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/N/NamaJo00.htm
speaking as a Patriots fan who is old enough to remember Joe Namath well before he won the Superbowl, he is still, to me, one of the very best of all time. maybe I was too young to know better (I was 12 in 1964) but he was the first college quarterback I ever noticed, and to my mind the first really great QB (I honestly never understood what the big deal was about Johnny Unitas, but I was an AFL fan). If anything I think Joe Namath is underrated today. He absolutely terrified Patriots fans with his play.
Namath was one of the great QB's in the game in his prime. He got severely injured several times and the team declined around him due to bad management decisions and so his final numbers look weak. I didn't get to see his glory days because I only really became a fan in 1970 but even then it was something special when Namath was actually on the field, hobbled by injuries but still gunslinging with the best of them on his up days. Namath made the hall of fame because he was the epitome of what a franchise QB should be, with his effect on the franchise becoming larger and larger as the games became more and more important, and he won the big game in the end against all the odds.
Yeah but even in the Super Bowl year he only completed 49.2% of his passes and threw more INT's than TD's (17-15). Were the standards much lower then? Today, if a guy completed 49.2 of his passes, he'd be ripped apart even if he was the QB of a Super Bowl winning team.
The game was different in several respects. Don't forget that pass rushers could hit the Qb even after the ball was released, there was more holding of receivers, teams opted for more downfield passing than easy short completions. Compare his stats to his contemporaries if you want to make the case.
I only saw Namath at the end of his career but he was still my favorite as a kid and a big reason I'm a Jet fan. Saw an interesting article some time ago comparing the careers and stats of Namath and Vinny. The gist of it was those three hours in Miami are what made Namath, otherwise Vinny had him across the board, not just in longevity but overall effectiveness. I believe I read it during our playoff run in 1998 when the Super Bowl that year was also being held in Miami. Through no fault of his own, Vinny didn't get there, which is a shame because he and the Jets would have destroyed Atlanta.
Namath is in the Hall of Fame because he is the first Qb or even Football player I can remember that guaranteed a victory in the Big Game. His mouth and ability to back it up made the Sb what it is today. Granted he does not have Marino or Manning Stats but he is a winner and Franchise Qb none the less. Injuries set him back and he is after 40 years the greatest Jet of all time and the only Franchise Qb we have ever had. Being a Franchise Qb is more than Stats. Until the year Moss came to Ne Brady did not have the greatest Stats but he is a Franchise Qb and a winner.
This list (lifted from Wikipedia) brought back some good & bad memories. 2008 Brett Favre (16) 2007 Chad Pennington (8) / Kellen Clemens (8) 2006 Chad Pennington (16) 2005 Brooks Bollinger (9) / Vinny Testaverde (4) / Chad Pennington (3) 2004 Chad Pennington (13) / Quincy Carter (3) 2003 Chad Pennington (9) / Vinny Testaverde (7) 2002 Chad Pennington (12) / Vinny Testaverde (4) 2001 Vinny Testaverde (16) 2000 Vinny Testaverde (16) 1999 Ray Lucas (9) / Rick Mirer (6) / Vinny Testaverde (1) 1998 Vinny Testaverde (13) / Glenn Foley (3) 1997 Neil O'Donnell (15) / Glenn Foley (1) 1996 Frank Reich (7) / Neil O'Donnell (6) / Glenn Foley (3) 1995 Boomer Esiason (12) / Bubby Brister (4) 1994 Boomer Esiason (14) / Jack Trudeau (2) 1993 Boomer Esiason (16) 1992 Browning Nagle (13) / Ken O'Brien (3) 1991 Ken O'Brien (16) 1990 Ken O'Brien (16) 1989 Ken O'Brien (12) / Tony Eason(2) / Pat Ryan (1) /Kyle Mackey (1) 1988 Ken O'Brien (12) / Pat Ryan (4) 1987 Ken O'Brien (12) / David Norrie (2) / Pat Ryan (1) 1986 Ken O'Brien (14) / Pat Ryan (2) 1985 Ken O'Brien (16) 1984 Pat Ryan (11) / Ken O'Brien (5) 1983 Richard Todd (16) 1982 Richard Todd (9) 1981 Richard Todd (16) 1980 Richard Todd (16) 1979 Richard Todd (15) / Matt Robinson (1) 1978 Matt Robinson (11) / Richard Todd (5) 1977 Richard Todd (11) / Matt Robinson (1) / Marty Domres (2) 1976 Joe Namath (8) / Richard Todd (6) 1975 Joe Namath (13) / J.J. Jones (1) 1974 Joe Namath (14) 1973 Al Woodall (6) / Joe Namath (5) / Bill Demory (3) 1972 Joe Namath (13) / Bob Davis (1) 1971 Bob Davis (7) / Al Woodall (4) / Joe Namath (3) 1970 Al Woodall (9) / Joe Namath (5) 1969 Joe Namath (14) 1968 Joe Namath (14) 1967 Joe Namath (14) 1966 Joe Namath (14) 1965 Joe Namath (9) / Mike Taliaferro (5) 1964 Dick Wood (13) / Pete Liske (3) 1963 Dick Wood (12) / Galen Hall (2) 1962 Johnny Green (8) / Lee Grosscup (4) / Butch Songin (2) 1961 Al Dorow (14) 1960 Al Dorow (13) / Dick Jamieson (1)
^ when there was stability for 4+ years, there were playoff appearances. All of the Jets 1st round QB picks lead them to the postseason.
Yea I remember the draft in 85' that was when I got into the Jets. I still think Ken O'Brien could have been a good to great QB if the team actually got him talent around him.
He stepped into a team with a boatload of talent, which had almost reached the Super Bowl with Richard Todd. The team and the line got old around him and his play dropped off, not surprising. QBs aren't superheros.
The standards were not lower the game was different. Offensive lineman could not extend their arms at all without being called for holding. Defensive lineman were allowed to go to the head which made the pass rush to the QB much quicker. The Hash marks were much further out and the QB was not protected in the least. To give you an idea of the difference in passing, Namath in 68 had a very similiar number of yards per game as Chad did last year. Namath on a 49% completion % actually had an 8.2 YPA compared to Pennington's 7.7 YPA while completing over 67% of his passes. On yards per completion Namath averaged close to 17 yards vs around 11 to 12 today. The Jets passed the ball back in those days to make big plays and they did. They used the running game to control the clock and field position. Todays game utilizing the WCO for the most part uses the passing game like the old Jets used the running game. Low risk low reward and with more protection for the QB because of the rules, more time to throw because of the rules and more field to work with because of the rules.
And your response to my post is one of the more misinformed I have ever read. It is indicative of many in this thread, where the outcome (SB title) attempts to prove the theory (franchise QB is needed). In other words, you and others label QBs as "franchise" QBs only because they won a SB or were drafted in the first round and not based on their careers. You are completely off base when it comes to Plunkett and Williams. Plunkett was never a good QB. In his career, he threw for 164 TDs and 198 Ints, barely completed more than 50% of his passes, and had a career QB rating of 67.5. That is just awful. Let's look at his SB winning years. In 1980, he threw for 2300 yards, completed 51% of his passes, had an 18-16 TD to INT ration, and had a rating of 72. In 1983, he had his best year ever, throwing for 2900 yards with 20 TDs and only 18 picks and a rating of 83. Let's face it, he was in the right place at the right time and was lucky to finish his career on great Raider teams with great defenses. Your memory of Doug Williams is remarkably dubious. Yes he was a first round draft pick, but if that alone makes for a franchise QB, then Akili Smith and Heath Shuler are franchise QBs also. You also forget about how limited his career was with the Redskins. He started a total of 14 games for Washington in his career and won only 5 of those starts. In 1987, when he won the title, he started a total of 2 games. Jay Schroeder was the starter that year and was injured. Williams came off the bench to lead the Skins to the title. His career as a Redskin amounted to one great game - the SB. That does not make him into a franchise QB any more than that one game made Timmy Smith a franchise RB. As for McMahon, you are also misguided. Again, his draft position means nothing. He was always injured. He never played a full season. In fact, his career starts per season were 7, 13, 9, 11,6, 6, 9, 11 etc. He makes Pennington look like an iron man. In his career he threw 100 TDs and 90 picks with a 78 rating. Even in 86, when you say his absence led to the Bears demise that year, he started six games, going 6-0, but threw 5 TDs and 8 picks in those 6 games. If ever in the NFL there was a QB that benefited from one of the best defenses and one of the best RBs in history, it was McMahon. He is not even close to being a franchise QB. Eli Manning may have been a first round draft pick also, but in his career, he has played like a franchise QB only for the last few games of the 2007 season and the playoffs. Before that, Giant fans were ready to run him out of NY and he reverted to form again last year. One hot run in one playoff does not make him a franchise QB, it puts him in the Williams, Rypien category. Now Big Ben. He has been a good, but not great QB. In 2005, he threw for 2400 yards , 17 TDs and 9 picks. In 2008, he threw for 3300 yards with 17 TDs and 15 picks (and 7 fumbles). His YPA was 7.0 and his rating was 80.1. I'm sorry, but those stats are ordinary. Pennington had a better year last year by far (and his 2004 season was better than both of those years), but nobody would dare claim on this board that he was a franchise QB (although he does meet one of your criteria - first round draft pick) You can point to this play or that play and talk about how big he his and how he evades the rush and makes plays from nothing, but the fact is, he has come up small in some big games in his career. He, like Plunkett and others, is fortunate to play for a team that has one of the best defenses in the NFL. Take the defense away, and Roethlesberger has no rings. Put a number of other QBs on those Steeler teams and they have two rings also. The bottom line is that there have been a number of teams that have won without franchise QBs, but the real common denominator for a SB team is defense. Sure, a franchise QB helps and it is better to have one than not. But Marino and Elway and perfect examples of how important defense is. Marino could not win a title because Miami never had the defense and Elway could not win until Denver had a running game and a defense.
But Ratliff.....yes - he's the answer! Year after year, he's our top QB. Of course! Just as we and the rest of the NFL have expected! We could trade him and get 2 firsts plus a 3rd and a starting QB or whatever. He's just that good!!!
