2008-2009 Yankees Off-Season Thread

I think you missed the point of the comparison.

It's not about putting Joba in that group. It's pointing out the obvious flaw in that line of reasoning. Just because someone would be a great closer doesn't mean they should be. So it's pointless to use that "logic" as an argument.

 

Cappy, you are one of those totally enamored with Hughes. What I can't understand is why you wouldn't want Hughes as your fifth starter and Chamberlain in the setup role where he might actually pitch all year. As it is now, you have no proven 8th inning reliever and Hughes is in the minors because there is no place for him in NY.

 

Gotta side with Don here. Not to mention the fact when Mo retires you can have Joba slide in and close games for the next 15 years. And Hughes, who some people said see some "Clemens" in him, should be the 5th starter...

 

Because I can look past immediate needs for the best long-term potential for the Yankees.

I don't know why you are willing to say Joba is "proven" as a reliever based on half a season of stats, but you aren't willing to give Bruney (who has been dominant) a fair shake in the role. He was lights out last year.

Given the choice between Joba or Hughes in the rotation this year, I'll take Joba, man-crush on Hughes be damned. Why? Because next year, when Pettitte is gone, you'll have both Joba AND Hughes in the rotation.

ETA: By the way, I see you again implied that Joba will be healthier as a reliever ("where he might actually pitch all year"). You still haven't said why you think the pen is a safer place for him. You can keep saying it, but it doesn't make it true.

 

This is one of those [/thread] posts. Well said Cappy.

 

And by the way I'm not worried about his velocity hitting 99. Rich Harden in his Oakland days was constantly hurt for throwing 97-98, overthrowing his arm...So he cut back on the velocity to 94-95 and he seems healthier, which makes sense...Joba throwing 95 doesn't bother me at all. 95 with his repitoire of pitches can make that 95 look like 99. but I do want him in the 8th...

On the David Price comparison...Price was the #1 overall pick in the draft, is a lefty, come on.

 

While I agree with you that Chamberlain belongs in the rotation, it may in fact be true that the bullpen would keep him healthier. Depending on his injury, throwing fewer pitches at a time might put less strain on his arm. Granted, I don't know what the injury is exactly, and it might be possible that the structure of starting every fifth day would be better for him. I'm just saying that this is the one part of Don's argument that you shouldn't dismiss out of hand because he may be right about it, though it would be completely coincidental if he was.

 

Oh, I agree, and I'm not dismissing it out of hand. My point is that moving him to the pen to be healthier is not a given. You aren't necessarily "protecting" him by doing so. Depending on the injury and who you listen to, the bullpen could be less healthy for him.

His injury (last year) was called tendinitis. Was the strain from 100 pitches per outing? From moving too quickly from the pen to the rotation? From some mechanical issue? Something else? I don't know. I doubt anyone does. But it's an overreaction to the Nth degree to now think he's "injury prone" and that it's because he started games.

Really, though, I was just curious if Don was capable of stating the reasons behind his argument, or if he was just aping what Joel Sherman or some other hack told him.




God, I wish they never called him up to use out of the pen in 2007. Then we wouldn't have to hear any of this.

 

What's your point? He'd be sick as a closer, wouldn't he? What does his handedness have to do with it? If you think he should be a starter, then why doesn't the same apply for Joba?

ETA: By the way, Joba was #1 draft pick talent. He fell in the draft for other reasons.

 

Your not taking the #1 overall draft pick to be a Closer...Case closed. Joba has shown "it" to be a dominant setup man. Jury still out on him starting. And with the next 3-4 years of CC-Wang-AJ-Pettitte/Hughes...What is so necessary about a 5th starter when Rivera could be finished by then?

 

And why?

Answer: Because starters are more valuable!!

Sigh. I don't know why people keep saying this. He has a larger body of work as a starter, and has been dominant in both roles. Why? Because he's a very talented pitcher!

"Fifth starter" is a meaningless designation. It doesn't measure talent or performance. If you have Tim Lincecum, Sabathia, Hamels, Peavy, and Kazmir on one team, Kazmir is likely the fifth starter. Does that mean he's unnecessary to the point that he'd be better off in the pen (where I'm sure he'd dominate)? Of course not.

If Joba is named the "fifth starter" but pitches like he did last year, they'll be getting #1 starter-type performance out of him. I'm sure you will agree that that is something every team would kill for.

 

There is every reason to think that Chamberlain might get hurt. He has been hurt a lot. Of course Hughes has too. Only time will tell but I would bet Chamberlain doesn't stay healthy all year. Why is that you don't think Chamberlain was dominate as a setup man but you think Bruney was. What possible stats have you contrived into convincing yourself that is true?

He had 32 appearances over the entire year. He had an ERA of 1.83 , Chamberlain had 39 appearances as a reliever between Aug '07 and May '08 and had an ERA of around 1.38...so whats makes Bruney dominant and Chamberlain not?

 

Code:

Entire Season	TEAM			W	L	ERA	G	GS	CG	SHO	SV	SVO	IP	H	R	ER	HR	HBP	BB	SO  
As a Starter	New York Yankees	3	1	2.76	12	12	0	0	0	0	65.1	60	23	20	4	2	25	74 
As a Reliever	New York Yankees	1	2	2.31	30	0	0	0	0	1	35.0	27	9	9	1	0	14	44

His numbers were comparable both starting and relieving last year. If he starts, he will pitch more innings per season, thereby giving you the same level of performance over the course of more innings.

If the jury is out on that, it's a very poor jury.

 

This post is Swiss. It must be. There's no other explanation for the holes.

There is no more reason to believe Joba will be hurt this year than any other member of the club. Can you please list all of the injuries that contribute to your reference of "a lot", and while you're at it, I'd like you to also include Hughes' list that shows he's injured a lot.

I love the "only time will tell, but I would bet he doesn't stay healthy all year." You can say that about every single guy in the major leagues. It's 162 games. Chances are, if you play pro baseball, you're going to have times where your health isn't optimal.

And where in hell did Cappy ever once, even remotely suggest he might be considering the thought that Joba wasn't dominant as a setup man? I'll save you the trouble, he never did. No one did. No one ever would because it would immediately invalidate any arguments they made at that point. Sort of like your straw man argument now.

 

Oh really? Name me his injuries, then. Are you aware of them? Or are you just going by what George King told you?

First of all, dude... spelling and grammar. When trying to communicate, they're your friends.

Secondly, how can I make this any more clear? OF COURSE Joba was (and would continue to be) a dominant reliever. He's a talented pitcher! I'm sure he would excel in whatever role they gave him.

The thing is, Joba has ALSO shown himself to be a dominant starter. (He was drafted as a starter, remember.) This is more valuable to the team. This is why they don't turn David Price into a reliever (despite his dominance last year). This is why Beckett isn't a reliever. Or Hamels. Or Peavy. Or any other top-notch starter.

I really can't believe that you are this obtuse, man. A difference of opinion is one thing, but you continually mangle the point and seemingly "forget" points that have been shown to you several times over.

ETA: I love that people act as though the Yankees are conducting some super-risky "experiment" with Joba, trying to convert a career-long reliever into a starter. Why can't people get it through their heads that it was his relief role that was the blip on the radar? I guess it's true what they say about first impressions.

 

Where the hell are they going to put the distance markers in with all the adds on the wall?

oh yeah, Bob Sheppard retired.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/02/sports/baseball/02sheppard.html?_r=4&ref=sports

 

I thought this was a pretty good read.

SI Article on Sabathia

 

Cappy I don't know why you bother.:rofl:

 

That is awful. The guy is nearing 100 so I kind of never expected him back but Yankee Stadium never sounded the same in the games he has missed in recent years and will never sound the same w/o him.