Good post, winston, but I fear IS refuses to acknowledge the "two sides" argument. I have tried and he does not seem to understand it. What I think 07 showed was that Clemens played marginally better than Chad in fairly similar circumstances when he had gotten insufficient prep work in the preseason that year. Despite statements of fact to the contrary we don't actually know if Chad had beaten Clemens out this past year, but even if he had, this would not have meant in itself that Clemens is not capable of getting it done at Qb. Chad was a classic case of a success with a red shirt on who failed in big games at season's end. And indisputably Clemens has a much better arm and overall toughness than Chad, not to mention no surgeries to his arm.
I don't know where you are getting that Clemens was "far better". In what way? He led 8 TD drives in about 90 posessions, something to that effect, it's been a while now. I give both QBs the same pass for that year, but Clemens hasn't shown much at any other time either, while Pennington had before and has again since.
Now you're back to trying to speak for me again when you have no idea what youre talking about. Once again, I don't think any QB would have done well with the 07 Jets, but Clemens to me hasn't looked impressive at any time against any level of competition. That has nothing to do with Chad. Maybe you should clear the Chad hatred out of your head so we can have a rational conversation about the here and now, because you seem to be relating everything back to him and we're getting nowhere. Also, how do you figure that Clemens has "indisputably more overall toughness"? He was injured three games into his starting tenure and had to miss two more games right off the bat. Do you even watch the games?
But so what if your argument was the HC didn't believe in Clemens I agree he didn't. He also didn't believe in Chad so he unloaded him for nothing. Maybe the HC screwed up on both of them? My only point is Clemens has shown a good live NFL arm, he has a great NFL release not good great. He was tested and apparently has superior intelligence. Maybe he just needs a QB coach, a scheme, an OL and a running attack? Maybe not but we never saw him with any of that so I'm open minded and optimistic because what other choice do we have at this point? I think any HC comming in has to make a thourough evaluation on both Clemens and Ratliff and either commit to one of them or make a move right away to something else either in the draft or FA. It's clearly one of the failures of both Tannenbaum, Mangini and you can probably dump Shotty in as well that we havent' developed a young QB in 3 years since they came in and we really don't know what we have or don't have. As far as far better, he wasn't far better he showed something more than Chad did in both the Pitt and Baltimore game in terms of arm and release he is on a different planet than Chad. Obviously in terms of experience Chad is in a different league than Clemens. Unlike experience the arm and release will never be something Chad has. Hopefully Clemens will get the experience and show himself to be just as clever as Chad is behind center?
At least Ratliff has some talent and is young... I can't imagine voting for someone like Billy Volek... I voted for Ratliff, and like many who voted for the guy, I don't think he should be handed the job at all. I'd say have a competition between Ratliff, Clemens, Ainge, and maybe a veteran like Jon Kitna. I'd have no problem with that going into next year, and we'd probably release Ainge.
Alright, I have a question, because I do not fully understand it. The Pats are going to franchise Cassel. So that being the case and assuming Brady is good to go next year. What would it take for us to get Cassel??
So the best case scenario is that he's slightly better than the guy we had that you hated and wanted to get rid of? Great. You're basing your whole premise on"maybe". I'm not writing him off completely, I just haven't seen anything yet to give me hope he's anything special. Even Glenn Foley and Browning Nagle showed some flashes, Clemens hasn't even done that. People are still hanging their hats on a failed drive to try and tie a game in Week 2 two years ago, in a game we lost and scored 13 points. Also citing the Pittsburgh game where he completed one big pass and that was on a flea-flicker to a wide open LC, who was underthrown badly enough to get him injured for the rest of the season. And those are the good examples. Look, I'm a Jet fan, I'd love to say I see this guy play and see uncovered greatness, but I just don't see it. I'm looking for it, I just don't see it. He's going into his 4th year, he's had three chances to be the starter, so I'm not holding my breath.
The Reason that Clemens never really had a shot was because Mangini had to make the playoffs this year or he was going to lose his job after all the money Woody spent this offseason. Before Farve Mangini had to go with the proven one and done product of Chad just to save his job. He could not risk the learning curve with Clemens that would have probably put us ahead going into next season by starting him. At least if Clemens or Ratliff started we would know where we stood in the draft or if we had a Qb of the future and what pieces to surround him with. The only way Clemens stood a chance is with Chad and Farve gone. Now he stands a fair chance to win the job if he is up to the test with the new coach and regime.
Yeah I watch the games, and that hit he took from the Pats would have put Chad in the hospital and ended his career. What games do you watch? I don't know why you are having such difficulty with this two sides issue. You discount Chad's play in 07, and point to his play this year (with another team, other players) as indication of who the real Chad is, yet you dump all over Clemens for not having done more in 07 with the same players. You excuse Chad, but convict Clemens. It makes no sense.
Actually Chad had more games with the full squad from 06 than Clemens. By seasons end Clemens had Wallace wright and Brad smith lining up at Wr because Coles and Cotch were out. And if not for some dropped passes Clemens would have finished 4-3 and not 3-4. Possibly 5-2. Hopefully he gets a shot this year.
You do know that the Lions was undefeated in the preseason right? Personally I don't mind so long as we draft a 1st round QB if there is one available
Good analysis. One other factor you didn't mention is that the Chad Fans would have screamed bloody murder if Mangini had changed him out for Clemens at any point other than when Chad had already ruined the 07 season. If I were an HC candidate right now for this team, I would want some understanding that if I get in there and feel we have too many draft needs to pick Qb high in the draft, and Favre is not going to be the Qb, that I am given some time to let either Clemens or Ratliff show whether they deserve to be the starter. I would want the FO and Woody to acknowledge that is the strategy we all buy into, at least for some reasonable period of time. If this looks like it screws up Woody's PSL business plan, let him say so and they go another route.
I watched all the games this year, saw Chad take bigger hits than that and never came out of a game. Because you can't read. I've said a few times today in this very thread that I give them both the same pass for 2007. What I don't get is people getting so excited over Clemens' poor play that season when it was no better than what Chad did and everyone wanted to run him out of town for it. It's easier to evaluate Chad outside of 2007 because he has a much bigger body of work, including four playoff seasons and two division titles, Clemens doesn't have that. I've not ever seen Clemens look that impressive, ever, that's my point. That much has nothing to do with Chad. Ratliff showed more promise in two pre-season games than Clemens ever has, against the same caliber of competition. When Clemens has faced real competition he hasn't looked good at all.
Oh yes, I completely agree Clemens actually had a weaker group of players to work with than Chad did. Injuries had taken their toll by the time he got in there.
This to me is a telling statement. Clemens has been in the same offense for three seasons, he's not a rookie anymore, and they still had no faith in him to even get us to the playoffs with all the talent they put around him. So based on that, what makes you think he's now going to win us a Super Bowl just because Chad and probably Favre are not here? Them leaving doesn't make him any better.
Here I am thinking you don't take this stuff personally, as you claim, and then you go and say things that indicate you do. Which is it? I am going to assume the former and ignore the latter, FTR. Feel free to tell me if you would do otherwise in my position. In any event, I do read your posts, and without citing chapter and verse you have frequently said Clemens showed he did not get it done in 07. Yet you give Chad a free pass due to problems with the team. That is the two sides issue Winston and I have been talking about. I guess I will just have to disagree that Ratliff's performance in two pre-season games is more impressive than the wins Clemens got in 07, and even his performance in some losses.
Well, when I say something in plain English multiple times and you still don't acknowledge that I said it, it leaves me to wonder if you can or did read it. Ok, I'll say it one more time. Both guys get the same pass for 2007 because as a team the Jets couldn't run and couldn't block. Outside of that, Chad gets more benefit of the doubt because he A-built up a line of credit by winning games and going to the playoffs over a period of years before that (and now again since), and B-was playing on an ankle that required surgery. Clemens' remaining body of work is failing to win the job in 2006 when he was drafted by the current regime and competing with a recovering Chad, a journeyman (Ramsey) and a scrub (Bollinger), and 2008 when he left enough doubt that we could even reach the playoffs that they went out and traded for a washed-up Favre. So in short, even if you give them both the same pass for 2007, all else is not equal. Not even close.
The point was the CS headed by the guy they just fired made the telling statement you refer to. Or at least to the extent he understood that to be the case, it was him, not hopefully somebody who will do a better job of making decisions. In any event as has been pointed out by several others here there was some thought that this past year's roster was good enough to get to the SB. Part of that was the assessment of what was thought that Favre would bring to the table. Going forward if Favre retires, you're talking a different scenario.
If Mangini had to choose between Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco he would have chosen Chad as well because that was his offense. All that shows is that no matter what Mangini was forced into making the wrong decision. Instead of taking a step back with Clemens or Ratliff to go forward two we took two steps backwards with Farve. You saw with your own eyes vintage Chad Pennington against the Ravens. Everyone that is against Chad diagramed that blueprint for years and it played itself out to flawless perfection on Sunday. The fact is Chad will not get the Phins Jets or any other team much further than he did on Sunday. That might have been enough to save Manginis Job this year. I believe Clemens or Ratliff could have done the same thing but Mangini was not taking the risk. Woodys spending spree doomed Mangini to fail from the beginning. Kellen or Ratliff Might not win a Sb but Chad has proven he can and will not. Look at last sundays game again and that is all the argument you need for him to be gone.
