You make a good point. With a rookie QB and rookie HC, the vultures will be swarming before the first game even starts. Add to that the fact we have a horrendous schedule where we will be lucky to win 8 games to begin with and it will be a disaster. Not what Johnson is envisioning. The only chance they have to keep them at bay is with a proven coach and qb.
This hurt like H**L! I blocked that one out. Ed Reed is the best Saftey I have seen play in my lifetime.
IS, Last I checked Chad was not on the list at the top of the page. Your continued references to him do not advance your arguments as persuasive. For example, do you not see the irony in asserting that because Chad in your view (despite the fact as Mauck and others have pointed out there is no real evidence of this, and note that fact manufacturer Don essentially agrees with your pov - that should be a warning to you) was beating Clemens out, that means Clemens sucks. And here you are a huge Chad Fan. If Chad is so great why would it mean Clemens is awful if Chad was barely beating him out in camp? I don't follow that one, because it makes no sense given your high regard for Chad. It is also indisputable that Clemens won three times as often with if anything a weaker team in 07 than Chad. Yet you still have that high regard for Chad. Another error in your previous posts is you imply there was a camp contest in 07. Uh, I don't recall that. In fact I seem to recall that Mangini announced that Chad would be the starter in January of that year. It was hardly the case that Clemens "could not beat out Chad" then. In fact he looked better than Chad in that pre-season. As for everybody else, This is a fun thread because we get to offer our opinions on something that is no doubt one of the biggest off season questions facing the team. But imo the reality is that if Favre wants to come back, he probably will, and that is not all bad, if he can use all off season to get in shape, and the team can get a deep threat at wideout. I would also hope that a better CS could make some real progress determining who should be Favre's eventual replacement. If on the other hand Favre decides not to come back, at this juncture I am thinking rather than use a high pick at Qb in the draft, unless there is a high confidence level about a pick the team can reasonably be seen as able to make, I would defer using the high picks to fill other holes, of which there are unfortunately many more than I thought mid season. Let one of the current guys show they deserve to start, and maybe pick up a vet Qb for insurance.
As much as I could not stand the sight of Chad behind center for the Jets even I must admit that He is a little better than the competition that Ryan and Flacco had. This is a bit much to compare Clemens situation. Look who coached Brady and Cassel and found them where in the draft. Sorry that was not by accident or chance. Beli and Parcells know this game of football better than everybody.
I agree with this. If Farve comes back and we will implode next year anyway and we will have a top five pick to adress the Qb situation next draft. At least other areas of need will be taken care of. We went 9-7 playing the Afc and Nfc West this year. Next year it really gets ugly
It is amusing. The guy has shown nothing. I think he's getting votes from Chad Fans who will not vote for either Clemens or Favre, for different reasons.
I'm only discussing Chad in the context of him being the reason Clemens hasn't played much. Why we're even still comparing the two is beyond me, it's absurd. You still want to hold up 2007 as your shining example, did you miss the season that just happened? Chad went to a 1-15 team, led them to 11-5, the division title, Comeback Player of the Year and runner-up for the MVP behind Peyton Manning. Clemens logged in another year as a career backup. If you want to spend another off season lauding Clemens for his 3-5 work in 2007 because the defense stepped up against some bad teams, have at it. I'm done with that, Chad is gone and he's not an option for 2009. His only relevance now is we have to try and stop him twice next season. Going forward we either need Favre to come back and actually prepare for the season, one of the young guys to step up, or get somebody else. From what we've seen of Clemens I'm not ready to give him the keys, he's been uninspiring for the most part. I'm not giving up on him, but let's see him do something before we waste time without seeing what other guys can do. From what we've heard and read, Ratliff has come a long way in terms of understanding the position by sitting and watching; from what we saw in pre season he certainly has the physical tools. So that inspires at least enough hope in the guy to give him a shot to compete for the job. I don't get why anyone would be against that.
To say he's shown nothing is an overstatement. He showed a tremendous amount of improvement from year one to year 2. He went from barely being able to call a play in the huddle, being on the practice squad and nearly cut to pushing Clemens for the #2 spot this season. He looked much better than Clemens in preseason against the same competition showing good pocket presence, poise, live arm, accuracy and ability to read a defense. If he continues to make that kind of progression I have no doubt he'll be an NFL starter. That said, I still prefer to give Clemens the chance first assuming Favre retires.
I agree with all of this. We have to give them both the chance though, I'm not down with just giving the job to either guy when they have done nothing in the league yet.
I agree, they both should be given a chance to prove they deserve the starting spot. I think there is a lot of credence to what WB says about needing to pick one quickly and allow them to take a large majority of the 1st team snaps in TC and preseason though. Whichever guy does get the nod will need as many reps with the first team as possible.
That can be overrated, I think. Both guys have been in the offense for a long time now, they have another off season for that. Sometimes the process has to play out to find the better guy, even if it means splitting reps. Competition is good, the whole game is based on competition and battling. If they can't handle that we don't want them.
I'm not against competition either, I just believe that with both of them having so little experience that they will need as many reps as possible in order to be as comfortable as possible going into week 1. I think you can only figure out so much in training camp and preseason with a competition. The real indicator is how they do in a real game.
The thing to remember also is that is doesn't end when you pick a guy anyway, especially in New York. Say you go with Clemens and he goes out there and shits the bed for 2 or 3 games, you know people will be screaming for Ratliff or vice versa. That's why I think you have to get both guys ready, let them battle it out and hopefully one of them can get it done in games.
There are a few reasons people like Ratliff: - He was great in preseason (32-47-499-4TDs-1INT) (Completion percentage 68.1; QB Rating 122.6) - He's young, at least somewhat mobile, has great size and a good arm. - People haven't seen too much from him, but from what they have, he looked great. People here aren't saying he's the next Tom Brady, they're just hopeful he can be something based on how well he played in the preseson. Those that voted for Ratliff probably just feel he's better than Clemens as he did greatly outplay him in camp and in preseason. I remember seeing him play at Utah a bit and then writing down his name because he was extremely impressive when I saw him. However I hear he played poorly in a bowl game or something in his senior season. My opinion is he deserves a chance to start just as a much as Clemens does. Unless we get someone great, we should be looking at an open QB competition. Hey, with this offensive line and this running game, I'd say a young QB would have a GREAT chance of succeeding.
IS, Imo you have continued to dump on Clemens without good reason, and continue to fail to address why your argument that he failed to beat out Chad last season, in a competition where no choice was ultimately made, means he sucks when you hold Chad in such high regard. I am not sure why you are missing the point, but I gave you a chance to address it. Clemens's "failure" to win the job this past season was for what I thought was a rather obvious reason - the presence of future HOF'er Brett Favre ahead of him on the depth chart. WSW, I personally don't know that Clemens is better than Ratliff, but I do know there is no real reason, such as performing in games against real competition, to conclude Ratliff has surpassed Clemens. I would prefer if Favre is not back that the focus go into getting Clemens ready to start, rather than taking up too much time and splitting reps to have a competition. Ratliff could presumably still be given some development work if Clemens fails to progress.
PA, Ratliff played against second and third stringers in pre-season games. Clemens has won three starts and come close to winning others in real season games against first stringers. I think there's a difference.
I don't disagree with most of this, except for the bolded part. There are real reasons and I've pointed out some as have others. You are making the mistake of limiting "real reasons" to playing time in regular season games. If you want to say he hasn't done anything in a regular season game, that's fine, but those aren't the only "real reasons". If performances in regular season games were the only real reason to start one QB over another the only way someone would ever get there first start is by injury to the starter.
I don't know who hated Chad because he was only good enough to get us to the playoffs? I thought Chad was limited in his ability to make plays against good teams because of his arm being injured twice and his performance against good defensive teams since he returned to the lineup in 05 and than in 06 and than again in 07. Clemens and Chad sucked in 07. Clemens got his first opportunity to play in 07 and under the same conditions that Chad had and while he sucked, he was far better than Chad under the same conditions. He also showed a live NFL arm a superior release and good physical tougness under duress. He also showed crappy foot work and some less than stellar decision making as did Chad when he was under pressure in 07 and again last week with a far superior team. Now clearly Chad did nothing to show that he has an arm that can make plays against big time defensive teams, but he did get the opportunity to take teams with good defenses and good running games to the playoffs before shitting the bed. The coin has two sides I'm afraid. The same people who think Chad was done in by the OL and running game in 07, are dumping on Clemens. Clemens clearly showed a superior arm, much faster release, the ability to hold on to the ball when creamed and those people don't want to give him the same chance Chad had this year. Maybe Clemens is everything Chad is with an arm and quick release? Wouldn't that be an upgrade? Especially since he hasn't had two arm surgeries.
WSW, When I made the general statement about no "real reason", and then referred to playing time in real games as an example, I used the term "such as" - this was not language that meant I was "limiting" my reference to real reasons as being one ONLY based on an assessment of regular season game performance. In short you misread my post if you think I said "the only real reason" concerns prior regular season game performance. Now that we are on the subject, I do not, unlike some here, think that performance against another team's scrubs in a pre-season game is a "real reason" to prefer Ratliff over Clemens. There are other reasons for my skepticism. Ratliff is a walk on. Clemens had a good college record that justified his going as a high second round pick. Now I don't KNOW that Ratliff could not get it done. Never said that. I just am amused by how many think he's the best option right now. I have yet to hear anyone offer a rationale for that that is persuasive.
