I can think of other Super Bowl MVPs that I disagree with more. Howard did set a super bowl record for return yardage. Gotta give him credit there. For those of us who actually watched that game, you'll recall that it was a debated topic near the end. The commentators (Madden and Summerall?) were trying to decide between Favre and Howard. I believe they ended up saying they'd vote for Favre. I don't see how all those return yards and a kickoff return when GB already had the lead trumps what Brett did. Now if that kickoff return gave the Packers the lead then we'd be talking about something different altogether.....
Yeah that was a bit of a hyperbole. But Favre definitely deserved it more than Freeman. 2 TD passes (one on an audible and one setting a record) plus a TD run was more important than what Howard did.
I'm not trying to knock him down, you guys are using rating for some comparisons and not for others. Why can't we compare favre to modern players? You cannot be serious? So it's ok to compare favre's rating to players of other eras b/c his rating is higher but it's not ok to compare ratings of players of his era when they played w/ the same rules? You are joking, right? if not for Howard GB probably doesn't win, he destroyed the Pats that day. That was a well deserved award unlike the last 2 SB MVPs and Brady's 1st SB MVP award.
Or, Peyton Manning's SB MVP. Seriously, it's like they didn't watch the game. They pretty much won despite manning, not because. Just like in most of their playoff run.
Reasons not to use QB rating... Passer rating is determined by four statistical components, each of which is computed as a number between zero and 2.375. The benchmarks for these statistics are based on historical averages. If any of the raw components are beyond the limits of zero or 2.375, the component is set to limiting value of zero or 2.375 as the case maybe. The component for completion percentage, C, is calculated as: (COMPS/ATTEMPTS x 100 - 30)/20 The component for yards per attempt, Y, is calculated as: (YARDS/ATTEMPTS - 3) x 1/4 The component for touchdowns per attempt, T, is calculated as: TDS/ATTEMPTS x 20 The component for interceptions per attempt, I, is calculated as: 2.375-(INTs/ATTEMPTS x 25 The four components are then added, divided by 6, and multiplied by 100. Thus the formula for passer rating can be given as: (max(min(C,2.375),0) + max(min(Y,2.375),0) + max(min(T,2.375),0) + max(min(I,2.375),0))/6 x 100 Favre's QB rating is dimished because of the sheer number of attempts and completion rate. I propose his rating was negatively affected most by 3 specific years, 1999, 2000 and 2006 (a couple of 72s and a 74). This formula is weighted more to C. (I think- I am no expert, I took Calculus pass/fail and there was a healthy pool going in my dorm on what that result would be). You are are better or worse when your attempts are higher and they have better/worse results. His worst completion rates were symptomatically in the years when coaching regimes changed (1999 - Rhodes, 2000 - Sherman, 2006 - McCarthy) with sub par W-L records. Also his INTs were high (not INT %) but that was offset by low TDS (or low TD%) His highest INTs % came during both good and bad years record wise. More strange, his next 2 worst completion ratings were the SB years- better team, defense, system and CS. Most of the QBs mentioned played under stable coaching staffs (Montana-Walsh/Hackett- the OC in Kansas City, Young-Siefert(a Walsh clone), Staubach-Landry, Bradshaw-Noll, Manning-Dungy/Marchibroda (not counting Mora), Whats-his-name/Belichek). Favre has not. Favre has had a revolving door of WR/TE talent (or no-talent) prospects. Additionally, The list of receivers he has thrown TDs to numbers 48,+/- 3, in 17 years (about three new ones every year) - and none of them are or have the POTENTIAL to be in the HOF (Sharpe deserves to be but its not going to happen. Coles no, Cotchery and Keller who knows). All in all, the above equation is NOT WHAT FAVRE brings to the table. The above equation only gets you a starting job and decent paycheck (K Warner is the exception). 160-93 Gets You to the Playoffs.
If a football historian or a respected football analyst such as Ron Jawarski saw this argument he'd laugh at all of you. Stop arguing and appreciate Brett Favre. One again, who loves this game more than him???
I see alot of excuses. I don't think passer rating is the be all end all but you guys can't come in here touting it when it comes to players of different eras vs. favre and ignore it when it comes to players of his era. Stability? The 1st half of his career was w/ 1 coach. He had only 4 coaches in GB, that's not alot. Generally great QBs don't have alot of coaches b/c coaches don't leave those teams b/c they are winning. Fvare is better or worse than those you brought up not b/c of rating, it's a combo of alot of different categories. The argument is not a blakc and white one, according to your criteria he's the greatest, according to min h e's not top 5.
Wrong. He spent 1992-1998 with Holgrem. That's 6 seasons of his now 17 year career. That means a majority of of his career was spent other 4 other coaches, with Sherman being as long tenured with Favre as Holgrem was. The arguements generally for favre in the top 5, or greatest ever, come down to a couple factors. 1. The stats, including the iron man streak and the win/loss record. 2. The fact he rarely had the same recieving corps year to year, as the numbers tend to play out, he has thrown TD's to nearly 50 different recievers. I think when I started to count up the #'s for other greats, it was always near the 20 person mark. 3. He did win a ring. Just one, but there is still time to add to it (this season,a nd if he feels so inclined, MAYBE a shot next season) 4. Lots of different coaches in town. From OC's to HC's. He is a all time great, and went through 5 very significant coaching changes, and somehow still was able, over the course of 17 years, keep his production at a high level. 4 in 16 seasons doesn't seem like much, but it is when you consider in those 16 years, only one season was a losing season. That doesn't seem to fit with changing coaches that often.
Here's a list of everyone Favre has thrown a TD to in his career, the total is now up to 50 different receivers. Players in bold are JETS players. Antonio Freeman 57 Sterling Sharpe 41 Donald Driver 36 Robert Brooks 32 Bubba Franks 29 Bill Schroeder 19 Javon Walker 19 Mark Chmura 16 Dorsey Levens 16 Ahman Green 14 Greg Jennings 14 William Henderson 13 Tyrone Davis 12 Robert Ferguson 12 Keith Jackson 11 Edgar Bennett 10 Donald Lee 9 David Martin 9 Anthony Morgan 8 Corey Bradford 7 Jackie Harris 6 Antonio Chatman 5 Laveranues Coles 5 Tony Fisher 5 Derrick Mayes 5 Don Beebe 4 Jericho Cotchery 4 Ruvell Martin 4 Mark Clayton 3 Mark Ingram 3 Dustin Keller 3 Terry Mickens 3 Chansi Stuckey 3 Noah Herron 2 James Jones 2 Charles Jordan 2 Jeff Thomason 2 Leon Washington 2 Ed West 2 Reggie Cobb 1 Samkon Gado 1 Terry Glenn 1 Thomas Jones 1 Charles Lee 1 Andre Rison 1 Koren Robinson 1 Harry Sydney 1 Kitrick Taylor 1 Darrell Thompson 1 Wesley Walls 1 Total 460
apparently this "nyjunc vs. the rest of the civilized world" thread will continue indefinately. I love it. carry on . . .
OK I'll try this one more time because you're even slower than I thought. Comparing QBs from different eras = OK Comparing their QB ratings is not completely fair. Got it?!! Dumbest post ever. GB had the lead when Howard scored!! What don't you get about that?! For fuks sake I honestly believe you're a closet Favre hater. Come out of the closet already. And damn I really hate to use the word hater but you're just downright annoying and stupid as hell with your logic.....in fact I can't even call it logic. Its more like aimless ramblings from a spiteful and poorly informed fan. Enough already. Stick to talking Jets football. Its ridiculous how your pride prevents you from admitting your wrong. YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT ABOUT GREEN BAY FOOTBALL. You just look at stat sheets if it ain't jets football. This has become clear to me after observing your ridiculous posts over the last couple months.
I don't care if people rate him in their top 5 or not. Some do, some don't. Most have him in their top 10. The only thing they can cite against Favre is that he's the career INT leader. Yes, he's thrown a lot of stupid ones that have put a major hit on his all time ranking. I get that and it makes sense to knock him down a peg or two for that. One thing that EVERYONE fails to recognize is that he's also the all time leader in pass attempts. Here's some interesting stuff to take into account when comparing the INTs of Favre vs. other all time great QBs. These are rough figures but they're ballpark stuff, as I haven't debated this with anyone for a while so I don't have exact numbers in front of me. Marino has something like 255 career INTs. When Favre's pass attempt totals equal's Dan's, Brett had about 15-20 more INTs than Dan. Basically that means that Brett threw about 1 more INT per year than Dan. These numbers were also very similar in comparison to Elway. I think Warren Moon was also about the same or maybe even a higher INT rate than Favre. Guys like Tarkenton and Unitas' INT rate was significantly higher. Unitas had something like 5,100 career pass attempts and threw about 254 INTs. You know how many INTs Brett had when he made that many pass attempts? It was somewhere in the neighborhood of 170 INTs. Then you start looking at the INT rates of other greats like Namath, Bradshaw, Fouts, etc. and you'll see that if these guys had thrown anywhere near the amount of times Favre did, they'd have WAY over 300 INTs. Now I realize that a lot of those guys played in a time when offensive schemes were different so its tough to compare modern day QBs to the guys of the 60s and 70s. Unitas was an INT machine. So was Tarkenton. But they made up for it by putting up tons of yards and points. Same applies with Favre. Brett's INT% is obviously not the worst of all the great QBs in the history of the league. The average uneducated fan doesn't care about that though. All he sees is the career 300 INTs and doesn't realize that Brett had to throw 4,000 more passes than Blanda to surpass him for #1 in that category. They don't know that Testaverde and Tarkenton are only about 30 INTs behind Brett despite throwing over 2,000 less passes. There's numerous other guys in the HOF who would be well over 300 career INTs even if they were 1,000 attempts short of Favre. So a lot of these guys are from a different era, and as I have stated numerous times its unfair to base any conclusions solely on the stat comparisons. So that means we should stick to comparing him to guys like Elway and Marino. INT rates are very close for all 3. Win totals are very close. Favre beats both clearly in completion % and TDs, although he and Marino are very close when comparing how quickly each got to 420 TD passes. What does all this mean? That Brett matches up extremely well with these guys, and its probably just a matter of preference as to who you want to say is the best. I say Marino's ceiling was higher than any QB who ever lived. I also say that Brett's level of excellence lasted longer than Dan's and that Favre was more mobile, athletic QB and could make a lot more things happen if the play broke down and he had to scramble. Elway was good at that as well, but he wasn't very efficient. His accuracy was shit and he didn't put up high TD totals in most years of his career......particularly in his prime. It was his legs that saved the day for him. Basically, he was like Michael Vick in his prime only he was smarter. People want to say that Elway is greater than most because of his 5 super bowl appearances. Gotta give the man props for that but at the same time I can't help but think the Broncos would have never sniffed a super bowl in the 80s had their been no division into conferences for playoff seeding. There were always at least 3 or 4 teams in the NFC who were better than denver. In fact, there were normally at least 2 teams in the NFC east who were better. There's a reason why so many of those Super Bowls were mismatches. By the time the NFC team had reached the super bowl they had already passed their stiffest tests. Elway came into the league at a very weak period for the AFC. That much is clear. Anyways......sorry for being so long winded. I could go on about a lot of more QB comparisons but I'll save them for another post. I'm sure junc will be spewing more........junk. Like saying Starr was better than Favre. LOL
arguing with junc is pointless...it's like trying to get a retard to split the atom...it's just not gonna happen. Just let it go..and let him live in his own reality.
Very illuminating. I'm OK with all of what I've read here. I never argued / professed Favre is the greatest. I don't want to tread in those waters long enough. I mean what's better: Ferris Beuhler's Day of or Risky Business? As long as we agree to disagree with the following article from last year (about October- Hruby wrote for ESPN.com "Page 2" byline): IT'S OK NOT TO CARE ABOUT BRETT FAVRE Usually good. Sometimes great. Always plays. Loves football. Once upon a time ? like, when Netscape Mosaic seemed destined to dominate the Internet browser market ? Brett Favre even quarterbacked his team to a league championship, joining the immortal company of Earl Morrall, Mark Rypien and The Hoss. Now the winningest signal-caller in NFL history, Favre has long been more myth than man. And a tedious myth at that. The Green Bay quarterback, we are told, is a symbol of rage against the dying of the light, a Wild West action movie gunslinging hero incarnate, jus' one of the good ol' boys in an era of creeping metrosexuality, a throwback reminder of the sporting glory that once was and can be again. All of which is metaphorical claptrap. In reality, Favre is an accomplished football-thrower, Jeff George with better results and a generous dollop of aw-shucks country charm (but not so charming that he can hawk jeans without the help of a Golden Retriever). Favre has enjoyed an indisputably long and successful career; he also is a guy who chucks scrambling, underhanded, over-the-scrimmage-line ducks into triple-coverage, offers unsolicited contract advice to teammates unlikely to earn a fraction of his net worth, cajoles the television audience to purchase lawn tractors, tooth desensitizers and heartburn medication, belly flops to facilitate bogus sack records and calls non-news conference after non-news conference to announce his non-retirement. More to the point ? and this is crucial ? Favre is not the quarterback of your team, not unless you: (a) live in Green Bay; (b) are so old that you actually jumped on the national Packers bandwagon, which roughly corresponds with the heyday of the Gemini space program. Just because you love Football in America doesn't mean you have to love, like, care about or root for Favre. You can be indifferent. Jon Kitna can be your guy. No apologies necessary. Oh, and still jonesing for a dose of inspiring mythology? Try reading a book. "The Iliad" is a good place to start. At least Achilles' tedious dithering involves fighting in a freaking war, as opposed to whether lobbing jump balls to Donald Driver for yet another season is worth the trouble. --Patrick Hruby
anything written by page 2 should be e-burned.. they do it for attention. Think Cosmo for football. Same shit. Everyone at page 2 writes as if they are on their period... They do not understand Brett Favre. Still waiting for a verdict on a player who loved this game more and showed it everyday..................
