When Winters doesn't solve our LG problem and the O line folds like a pack of cards, who will get in the neck next.... I heard 'Brick rumblings last week :wink:
and what if Winters turns out to be well worth the third round pick he cost and becomes a long term starter, Mr Gloomy.... or is that even possible for you to consider
This project with vlad has gone on long enough. Weren't people calling him "The turnstile" last season? Does this look like a mean looking killer? Just look at his face tells you all you need to know.
Warmack would of been a perfect fit at LG for us and solidified the offensive line going forward (all we needed after was a RG). People that say, "oh you don't take a guard that early?" That's bullshit, look at the offensive line now and look at Milner sitting on the damn bench - injured or just straight up bad. The team would of been much better off at this juncture and hell who knows maybe we are 3-1 instead of 2-2. Winters hopefully proves me wrong, but I was a HUGE Warmack fan when the draft came along. Warmack has gotten better each and every week in the NFL - Larry Allen was one of the best Gs ever to play the game (Cowboys) - Warmack was compared to that very player. Fucking Milner ...
You & I have long disagreed on this drafting philosophy so this is nothing new. I look at it as the Jets being able to rebuild their O-line depth chart WITHOUT having to use a high value pick. Now I'll grant you that Warmack is more starter ready than any of the guys the Jets took..but long term do they really project that differently? Winters projects as a plus level starter as does Warmack. Drafting for the short term is part of the reason why the Jets are currently in the position they are. You don't draft for short term..you draft for long term.Especially on the O-line. Jets have 3 decent prospects in Campbell,Winters & Aboushi. If 2/3 work out based where they were drafted that is outstanding. David Decastro drew the same "Larry Allen" comparisons the year before. Seems like every year the top guard is billed as the "best OL prospect ever". Now Warmack was a nice guard prospect but Larry Allen was a pro bowl caliber player at several different OL positions including left tackle. Warmack has no business on the outside at tackle & is solely a "phone booth type". If you go by where he went in the draft he wasn't even the best guard prospect in his CLASS. Quality O-linemen are in every single draft.Outside of OT they are available in every single round of the draft. Why would you waste a prime top 10 pick on 1 when there are so many other positions you CAN'T address at later stages of the draft? Millner plays a position that is much harder to find quality bodies at. Corners w/ his physical skills able to play press man are at a premium.When you factor in his college production..you're talking about a much higher valued asset than a mauling interior linemen. Fact is, corners struggle early at the onset of their career..and frankly...he really hasn't looked that horrible. His issues are pre-snap/mental & not physical. He'll never be Revis,,but he projects as a plus player at a position of constant demand in the NFL.
Ducasse should only be benched if Winters clearly demonstrates he can be that guy. Don't forget, both Ducasse and Winters are 3rd round selections. Ducasse just has a crapload more experience. Unless Winters starts tearing it up in practice, you have to keep big Vlad in. OL is a tough transition to make out of college. They aren't going to just throw the rookie in because fans are upset with Vlad's play. It was one game, and honestly Vlad wasn't the only culprit.
Couple of problems with this: Ducasse was a 2nd round selection, Winters was a third. It wasn't just 1 game. Ducasse just hasn't panned out. His pass protection continues to be porous and he is racking up penalties at an alarming rate this year. Finally, if the Jets bench him for Winters, it won't be "because fans are upset with Vlad's play". the Jets aren't benching an O-lineman because the fans think he sucks.
Long-term success is what I am looking at also - I'm looking at Mangold and Brick. You are as good as your weakest link and Mangold for one, his play has suffered because we can't plug in a G to do his job. Same with Brick. If we plugged in a solid draft in the middle between them, the protection, the offensive line would be much better right now. Winters we haven't seen do anything as of yet. He's unproven. Right now, Millner can't stay on the field, he's injured and he's always been that way throughout his career. I understand corners struggle early, but he was benched also - it's not a good start to his career. We can't get proper protection on our QB because people keep beating us inside with exterior defenders if you watch the tape. I think you are undervaluing the purpose of having good interior protection. We could of grabbed a Brent Grimes in the FA for 3 mil, we had the cash - he's been playing excellent this season.
Dee Milner was the better prospect coming out... Period. He was a top five lock the entire draft process and was rated higher on EVERYONE'S board than warmack. AND it was a position of need as we just traded Revis. Milner was the right pick because he was a better prospect and filled a need. Give him time hell develop he has all the physical tools and just has to get used to the nfl. Warmack wasn't even the best guard prospect in this draft and plays at a position where you can find talent anywhere.
Being a better prospect doesn't mean jack. You have to have a balance between BPA and need in the draft. There are several positions of need, not just CB. We have a glaring hole at guard and the rest of the offensive line is underperfoming because of it. And Warmack wasn't the best rated guard? Really? Who was then? Cooper? I don't think so. If we can find G talent anywhere then tell me why we have 2 bottom tier players starting at G? and I'm not talking about Winters. Better hope Milliner can even STAY on the field.
Yeah you balance BPA with need and Milner is the better player in both areas. We just let Revis go sounds like a glaring need to me. Guards are much easier to find than quality cornerbacks. There is no need to pick a player in the top ten at arguably one of the least important positions on the field. The reason we have two players that are sub par is because as a franchise there is a thing called the salary cap and you must decide where to allocate your resources. I'm glad we put more value in the cornerback position because our head coach values this position very high. Tell me when was the last time a guard was taken in the top ten besides this year and you have countless GMs that agree with my philosophy than yours. Tell me how many starting guards are found in later rounds as opposed to starting cornerbacks. Quality guards are easier to find than quality cornerbacks and its a much more important to the team. Another point that shows that cornerbacks should be picked higher than guards in the draft is the fact that starting guards are cheaper to get in free agency than a cornerback. Therefore you should select a cornerback ahead of guard due to the rookie wage scale, you save money and allow yourself more flexibility in cap space. Cornerback is a more important position and was an area of need, not to mention we had a better prospect for the picking.
At draft time the experts were split on Warmack and Cooper. Cooper also went higher. Not sure what point you were trying to make there.
But if your scouts are quality,you have a good grading system & you just stick to the board within reason you'll ultimately build a deep complete roster within 3-4 years tops. In the process you acquire alot of good football players that are supported by objective reasoning within built in accountability amongst your scouting staff. If you aren't yielding positive situations there's something wrong with your grading system & you can fix that.It's a philosophy you can count on for the next 50 years & always adjust as needed. Drafting by need throws in too many variables..
Warmack was the better prospect throughout the season. When I look at prospects, I look at their production in college, not the combine. That's where Cooper came into play. I'm a huge UNC fan and Cooper is a good player, but Warmack has the football IQ and stability you want in a G. Imagine if we put Warmack in-between Brick and Mangold. See it's funny they rarely get talked about here, as if they aren't suffering production wise, but we need to look at the facts - Mangold has had a bad stretch of games if you watch the tape. He has to account for Colon and Ducasse fucking up on the daily basis. Brick has been decent but he can be much better. Weren't these guys all pros at one time? Millner may hold more value - but let me ask you this, would you rather have a stable offensive line or a potential lock down at CB when you already have Cromartie? We didn't need to draft a CB with the 9 IMO - we need to get better at getting to the QB and I see we are doing that with our defensive line. To be honest, I would of threw some cash at Brent Grimes for one year instead as a stop-gap. We had money left over. Look at history, when has a shutdown corner ever been part of a Super-bowl winning team? It's always the pass-rush, disrupting timing. Getting off the field on 3rd down. I agree with this philosophy, but you need to consider every factor when drafting a player - and in my opinion that includes need. Again, if we want a quarterback to succeed we need to put a stable offensive line out there, and while Austin Howard is holding his own - we have 2 guards that aren't. Every decision you make, you have to consider the quarterback position and how it gets impacted. I understand Millner is a talented player, but do you truly see him as being a #1 CB? Because drafting him that high, you better hope he can take the reins one day. This will become a glaring issue if we don't do something about it SOON. Why do we think 2 offensive lineman can carry the other 3?
Ducasse was picked near the end of the 2nd round while Winters was an early 3rd. The difference is maybe 10-13 picks at most. I always think of Ducasse as a 3rd rounder for some reason. I'm well aware that the Jets won't bench him because fans want it. That was my point in saying that. Fans only remember bad plays. They don't remember Powel's TD where Ducasse laid the key block that made it happen. Yeah, I know his pass protection still needs some work, but his run blocking is solid and that hardly means that he didn't pan out. This is his first year starting and I firmly believe it has to do more with gelling and learning the new system. It ain't like the rest of our line looked great or anything. Ducasse also owned Wilfork quite a few times in the Pats game.
we made the best draft pick possible at number 9 and did even better at number 13 getting back to the topic... looks like the decision has already been made to start Winters at LG in Atlanta.
It is certainly premature to call Milliner a bad pick, but I have been concerned since hearing about his history of injuries. But the trade of Revis and the team's reluctance to start Wilson at Cb (and possibly his not being signed to a new contract after this season) meant the Jets certainly had a need at cb. I obviously hope he still works out. WHile I do think the Jets have gone too heavy on D in recent drafts, the fact is for at least the most recent draft that any strategy was going to leave holes somewhere, because the Jet roster had too many holes. Let's hope Winter pans out replacing VD, who it just doesn't look like he will be effective.
Cooper was in play as a first round prospect long before the combine. Try following the draft before April instead of talking out your ass.
Warmack was the consensus best guard in the draft. Go back watch the combine process. Cooper's stock went way higher while Warmack leveled off. Especially after the SEC title game, Alabama offensive line was the talk of the country. But believe what you want.
