The New England Shenanigans/Miracles thread

Discussion in 'National Football League' started by forevercursed, Jan 13, 2018.

  1. Jets_Grinch

    Jets_Grinch Well-Known Member

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    The part i bolded is the issue. This dynasty has been showered in controversy since almost day one but all we hear is shit like this from the media. The Pats could be on their bye week and the guys in booth will looks for excuses to talk about them. Harrison spends half of "football night in america" gurgling Brady and Bill's nuts. We are sick and fucking tired of this tainted legacy being shoved down our throats as the shinning example. Worse are some of the fans, of which you are not one of these, which actually have the balls to act as though they are the under dogs and the world is out to get them. If the media would chill on blowing smoke up the Pats collective asses and the fan base would learn to shut the fuck up and appreciate what they have it would be far more tolerable. Also, Kraft is a terrible human being. Our owner isn't much better but at least he stays out of the spotlight.
     
    #61 Jets_Grinch, Jan 29, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
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  2. bartscott

    bartscott Well-Known Member

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    I have given Tom Brady credit. I think he is probably the best QB of all time. But even the best QB is one guy out of 53. Yes the QB is the most important, but to maintain this level of winning, is suspect. And kinda like after a girlfriend cheats, people are a bit suspicious of subsequent behavior. If you were a casual non patriot fan, I guarantee you would agree that there is something amiss. Yes the Pats are a very good, well coached team, but to bend the rules and cheat, makes the team (and their sanctimonious fans like you) VERY unlikeable.

    And it’s kinda laughable that you are telling me to focus on my own team, when you are the one on a Jets forum defending the Pats.
     
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  3. CJLang

    CJLang Well-Known Member

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    I'll just leave this here. See you folks later. I'm sure this will probably get me banned. ;)

     
  4. Patriot

    Patriot Well-Known Member

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    Look before we all get flustered here I am not saying you or anyone else should love the Patriots. And if I was in your shoes I would be very suspicious of the Patriots. This is because you never have received the full story behind Spy Gate and Deflate Gate from the national media.

    The issue of Spy Gate and Deflate Gate has been analyzed in more detail in the Boston media than in the national media for obvious reasons. The national media has never presented these stories in full and actual details. Am I saying the Patriots didn't do anything wrong? No!

    People around the country hear from ignorant stupid jocks who are pissed of at the Patriots who beat them like Marshall Faulk who have their own agenda. Sorry for the run on sentence here.

    Patriot fans get pissed because the national media in some cases have actually presented false stories like 11out 12 footballs were under inflated by 2 pounds and the Patriots taped the Rams walk thru. Then you hear a correction at 2:00 AM from ESPN when no one is watching. This then leads to misinformed folks around the country trying to claim the Patriots only win because of cheating.

    The reason the Patriots really win is their owner, coaches, and their players. Its that simple.
     
  5. Patriot

    Patriot Well-Known Member

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    Your argument has a lot of merits in terms of the media shoving the Patriots down your throats. Being a Pats fan it is difficult for me to relate to your frustration 100% but based on the way the media would shove Peyton Manning down our throats, I think I am getting some of your point here.

    The media suck and they do a total disservice to the viewers. Are we really to believe the only reason the Patriots win is because of Bill and Tom? Really?

    If I may, let me point out one of the unsung heroes of the Pats, Dante Scarnecchia who is the best offensive line coach in the business and has been the Patriots OL coach since 1982 except for two years with the Colts. If it wasn't for him, Brady would not be playing now!

    Then there is Ernie Adams who is by far the best scout in pro football with mathematical models explaining the tendencies of teams like when in this formation what is probability they will run these plays. His experience goes all the way back to 1975 and without him Belichick claims drafting a game plan would be more difficult. If it wasn't for Ernie Butler doesn't get that super Bowl interception.

    I could go on some more, but the point should be obvious. There is more to the story than Bill and Tom like the media wishes for you to believe.
     
  6. Patriot

    Patriot Well-Known Member

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    Kraft may not be perfect, but he does a lot of charity that doesn't always get noticed. Him and his deceased wife Myra have given over hundreds of million dollars in charity. I can also say he is a legend in the charity circles. He has done a lot of nice things for the players, fans, and community over the years. He is actually one of the nicest owners in the NFL.

    Just to give you an idea what kind of dude he is, check out the recent story about Kraft and a wheel chair.

    So before you call him a creep, you should do some homework on him.
     
  7. Yehoodi

    Yehoodi Active Member

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    The WR statement is not a dumb statement as that is the rule. Down by contact goes back to the earliest touching by an opponent. So a guy jumps in the air grabs a ball then gets pushed down without further contact, he is down even though he does not complete the elements of possession till after hitting the ground. In another words, the defender need not wait till a player has completed all the elements of possession to touch him down. The same is true for a loose ball (on a sack a player grabs the loose ball gets up and runs with it but was touching the QB when the first grabbed the ball), the WR example is more prevalent and so i figured you have seen it more.

    As for the play itself.

    It was a fumble as Lewis did not survive the ground when he regained control by pinning it to his hip, Jack ripped it out before Lewis could survive the ground. Btw, this is the same rule everyone has been talking about the Pats have been on the beneficial side of things (AJS, James, Cooks, etc.)

    Jack then rips the ball out as he rolls over Lewis, he gains control of the ball as he pins it to his stomach. At the same time Lewis' and Jack's hands are engaged, so initial control plus contact by opponent, player Jack will be down by contact once he completes the elements of possession as he rolled over and go up. He can not advance the ball as he has been touched. Plain and simple.

    You see it in the videos in this thread. i will add them in a few minutes

    Here is the video you posted. At the 0:34 mark their hands are engaged and Jack has the ball pinned to his stomach with left forearm. (as aside note this video is not the entire frame)



    Here is another video showing the replay from the endzone at 0:45-0:46 you will again see Jack with ball pinned to stomach (initial control) and hands engaged (contact), thus enough for a down by contact once Jack completes the process of going to the ground which he did once he got up.

     
    #67 Yehoodi, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  8. Jets_Grinch

    Jets_Grinch Well-Known Member

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    Now as percentages, how many Pats fans know the above names? Of those that do, how many would give them proper credit or even know their importance as you have illustrated above? But someone they all know more about football then everyone else because they cheer for the Pats. I literally had Pats fan at work tell me yesterday that had Peyton and Bill ended up together they wouldn't have done as well because Brady being a 6th round pick was "hungrier."
     
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  9. Jets_Grinch

    Jets_Grinch Well-Known Member

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    And leaving his wife on her deathbed to go handle the player lock out? Hooking up with a women half her age months later? How about being sued by his own son for a business deal gone wrong? Crying about GODell having too much power during deflategate when he was instrumental in the league office getting as much power as it did? I am familiar with his charitable efforts and i applaud them but there are two sides to every story. As is the case most of the time the truth lays somewhere in the middle. He is probably not quit as nice a guy as you are stating and probably not quite as much of a shmuck as I and most Jets fans would paint him. My only hope is his charitable and community efforts continue when the team isn't on top anymore.
     
  10. It's very frustrating when your main rival rubs it in your face every single year dating back 20 years only to have fans of said team argue every single facet of being an opposition to them. The Patriots have been laced in controversy since basically day 1;And forget the specifics..anytime an opposing fan raises the point of any of their controversies suddenly Patriot fans emerge from the woodwork w. every deflection & rationalization they can muster up. They don't listen to simple reasoning & if further cornered they fall back on jealousy or even going as far as to insult onlookers intelligence or mental standing. Their arguments are paper thin crap...once they're usual bullshit gets called out they either point to the rings, call it jealousy or just disappear w. a parting shot.


    Do they think they're the only ones that want to win? Do they think it's their team's birth right to win totally immune from controversy or criticism? You aren't gonna win for this long w. the sanctions & issues they have had w.o their being a counter culture or argument.Why is this so hard to grasp??

    It comes down to insecurity. They can deny it all they want..but no matter what they've convinced themselves there's still self doubt that all the accusations of cheating, blatant ref favortism & just unethical business has clouded their team's achievements. So I guess all the "others" have to suffer. Guess what patriot fans...it was YOUR team that didn't follow the rules. It was YOUR team that had all those tapes depicting opposing teams play signals..it was YOUR team w. whispers about all sorts of other espionage related activities...deny it all you want....your team made your bed.You may love the winning..but all it does is bring these issues more into focus. You can fight the naysayers all you like..but it's your teams actions that give it all credence.
     
    #70 KurtTheJetsFan, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2018
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  11. Yehoodi

    Yehoodi Active Member

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    The refs may of thought what i thought and that was Lewis was down by contact before it was ripped out and if not that, it is basically impossible to rip a ball out from someone without yourself being down by contact. However, i would of not been upset had they let the play go and would not disagree with folks that say this point. In the end though, as i mentioned in my prior post, Jack is down by contact, cannot advance the ball, and as this is a turnover, it would been reviewed showing the down by contact and the refs would of placed the ball where they did at the point Jack was down. So it kind of did not matter in the end if they blew it dead or not as Jags would of gotten the ball where they did after review.

    As for the PI, the ball was thrown in bounds and landed near the one/two yard line. There was no need to ride the guy out of bounds. It was not like the ball was thrown out of bounds and the defender was going that direction to get the ball. The defender was going out of bounds when the ball landed inbounds, as such, he cannot claim he was going for the ball. He not only cut off Cooks path to the ball, he road him out of bounds and was not playing the ball as he was going away from the ball.

    The NFL rules are clear on PI, Rule 8, Section 5, Article 2, which reads in pertinent part.

    (a) Contact by a player who is not playing the ball that restricts the opponent’s opportunity to make the catch;
    . . .
    (e) Cutting off the path of an opponent by making contact with him, without playing the ball;
    . . .

    Here is a video of the in game mikes of the refs explaining the above to Ramsey. At 8:46-9:20 of the video explains the above and at the 9:02/3 mark you see the ball land in bounds while the defender is out of bounds.

    It is pretty much straight forward.

    bartscott, we all hate to see calls made, especially pass interference which has the punitive spot foul, and at a key point in a game - late in a half, but in the end bart, the guy did cut off Cooks and really made no play for the ball evident by him being out of bounds.

     
  12. Yehoodi

    Yehoodi Active Member

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    As much as I like Kraft, the bold part always bothered me. Surely, there is not true time limit, but in the end be nice to show some space and respect for the passing of your first wife.
     
  13. Yehoodi

    Yehoodi Active Member

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    Kurt, in 2009 the Jets were caught manipulating kicking balls after inspection, and no one really cared. In fact, you would be hard pressed to find a contemporary article written on the matter. In the fall of 2014 teams were caught heating balls after inspection (which happened again this year btw) and the NFL merely sent out a friendly reminder not to heat balls, again no one really cared.

    Then in Jan. 2015 when the Pats were accused of ball tampering after inspection, all of sudden ball tampering is now national news. Seriously?

    See Kurt, what folks like you do not understand, it is not the violation, but the difference in opinion on the matter, from not caring 2009- fall 2014, to major news Jan. 2015, then back to not caring this past fall. Folks look silly when their opinion changes so drastically due to the jersey being worn, which makes some folks come to the concluding that folks are not sincerely worried about the underlying violation, but merely pick and choose to whom they get angry, which makes folks thing they are doing it for other reasons, like spite, anger, jealously, etc. Otherwise folks would be equally angry at all violators.

    It is really not that much different with Spygate. First time offense, team caught and admits what it has been doing since 2000. Major uproar. Then a few years later Atlanta is caught piping in crowd noise, first time offense, team admits what it has been doing, not much of an uproar. So in the end Kurt, it can be tough to take folks seriously, where there appears that the anger has really more due to the color of the jersey than the underlying crime.

    I am not one to defend what the Pats did or did not do, just get a little miffed at the difference in response.

    Oh, and one last point. The 49ers were caught spraying silicon on the Oline jersey and were told to stop. Rice admit susing stickem his entire career. But yet we do not see folks complain about the 49ers legacy. So again, is why it can be tough to sit down and take some folks seriously when one see a difference is response to violations.
     
  14. Jets_Grinch

    Jets_Grinch Well-Known Member

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    That's it. Really who are we to comment on anyone else's private life. But when you are public figure perception is considered reality. As i said before i am sure the reality is somewhere down the middle.
     
  15. Dierking

    Dierking Well-Known Member

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    Look, nobody is dogging some rich dude for buying himself a nice piece of ass. Just doing so very publicly after all the Saint Myra, MHK bullshit was just weak.
     
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  16. Jets_Grinch

    Jets_Grinch Well-Known Member

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    I think this illustrates what happened with deflategate pretty well. All teams are guilty of something, my impression of this is the pats are guilty of EVERYTHING. Say there are 6 things teams do considered gamesmanship. These include things like fire alarms at the visiting teams hotel, manipulating balls and fucking with the visiting teams headset. Of these 6 (a random number chosen to illustrate my point) most if not all teams are guilty of 1 or 2 any given Sunday. The Pats on the other hand were guilty of 5 or 6 each game to gain every advantage possible. Meanwhile Pats fans the media and Kraft himself would hold up the team as do no wrong choirboys when they are just as bad if not worse then everyone else. It was this combo of the team taking it up a notch on the gamesmanship and the constant being talked down to that lead the other owners to finally act against the Pats. From everything i have read and watched on this subject this is my conclusion.
    Side note one: the biggest mistake the commish has made is destroying the spygate tapes. If they "weren't THAT bad" as the league and Pats fans state then why not release them and prove it. I and many others will forever believe they got off easy on that one. The fun part about this is unless there is a copy of the tapes somewhere we literally cannot settle this argument.
    Side note two: the stickem doesn't bother me because modern receiver gloves are that good. That rubber tack shit they have on all the gloves now might as well be stickem.
     
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  17. Ok well for one...in my estimation theres a massive difference between ball manipulation involving a Kicker/QB & acouple Equipment jockeys, feeding in fake crowd noise & SOME of the things the patriots have been accused of both officially & unofficially...I don't think i need to go into the bloody details of that. Espionage to create unfair advantages is a bit more than getting a good foot on the ball or amped up crowd noise.

    Of course other teams have controversies including the jets. Do any of those controversies come even close to the darkness & outrage associated w. among other things knowing every single play the opposition is executing on every single play? Getting favorable calls in every high stakes situation?? Take it another step...do those teams when punished act in the same manner the Patriots do? Destroying phones, Remaining arrogant & standoffish..etc?? When tripgate happened the Jets immediately apologized..took their fine & fired Alosi. They took their lumps. When the Falcons got caught pumping in Noise Art Blank immediately issued an apology. Now these guys still broke the rules & should be held accountable no doubt...but it's not hard to see some fundamental differences within that example.

    As for jersey colors..why wouldn't this apply? The patriots have been the most successful team since 2002.They've had many controversies which put their integrity into question...if you're an opposing fan whose team has fallen victim to this...why would you feel anything but strife??
     
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  18. bartscott

    bartscott Well-Known Member

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    You seem like a pretty decent dude. I get it, you’re a Pats fan and with that being said, you will never understand the frustration of being a Jet fan and having to watch the smug Pats win all the fucking time.

    You are right. The players and coaches have a huge part in it. That is why they win. The Jags gave up a third and 18 on that last touchdown drive. Stop that, and they win. Deflated balls and filming walkthroughs won’t put the Lions into the Super Bowl.

    But it is undeniable. The Patriots have been fined more than any other team by 2 MILLION DOLLARS for cheating. They have had 2 #1 draft picks taken away for cheating. Just today Steve Spagnolo said the Pats were stealing the Eagles signals in Super Bowl 39.

    You can scoff it off, and call it sour grapes, but kinda like dismissing Dr. Huxtables accusers, at a certain point, there becomes too many of them to discount. So forgive me for being suspicious at inadvertent whistles and ticky-tac PI calls and high-fiving officials. Something stinks in Beantown.
     
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  19. bartscott

    bartscott Well-Known Member

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    The WR statement is dumb, and then you doubled down on it. I won’t be able to win an argument with someone who doesn’t seem to understand football, but I’ll try. YOU DONT NEED TO SURVIVE THE GROUND WHEN YOU RECOVER A FUMBLE. It is a live ball. It can touch the ground, or do whatever the fuck it wants. Pinning the ball to you leg on the way to the ground is not reestablishing possession.

    I am repeating myself, but the fact that Jack rips the ball out doesn’t mean he is down by contact. The ball doesn’t stop moving and become firmly held against his stomach until he is no longer touching Lewis. He is not down by contact just because he was previously touching Lewis. That’s absurd. And to compare it to a receiver catching a pass while in contact with a defender and then going to the ground is also absurd. It is two completely different plays.

    What if Jack had rolled over out of bounds while completing that play? It would not have been called a fumble recovery, because he did not have possession until he had rolled over.

    You can’t be ruled down by contact until you have possession of the ball. He didn’t have possession until after he had broken contact with Lewis.
     
  20. Long before the Patriots started winning Kraft screwed over the State of Connecticut & the city of Hartford to the highest degree by pulling out of a deal that would’ve brought the team a state of the art facility downtown simply so he could leverage a cheaper deal to stay in Foxborough.Further he sold then governor John Rowland on all of this knowingly & deliberately of how devastated the area was about losing the Whalers about a year prior

    The Whalers were near & dear to my heart..as a young teen I was absolutely torn up about them leaving.I feel dirty admitting this but for a brief second I considered becommong a Patriots fan if they were to make the move to the 860. When Kraft pulled such a low ball heartless move it cemented a certain hatred w many around these parts..basically anyone left who isn’t a patriots fan.
     
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