"Shameful Day for Washington"

Discussion in 'BS Forum' started by joe, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. VanderbiltJets

    VanderbiltJets Active Member

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    Given Adam's profile he wasn't the type to know where to buy a blackmarket gun (socially); he's no thug and I doubt there is much contraband available in an extremely wealthy area compared to, say, a big city or anywhere with even average crime (http://www.usa.com/newtown-ct-crime-and-crime-rate.htm). Anyone with asperger's would come across as a UC. Even assuming he'd break into someone's house and steal their guns would be farfetched.

    He technically stole his mother's gun(s) and then killed her and then possibly stole more guns. He knew his mother owned guns and I bet she was probably the only gun owner he knew. If his mother didn't own guns and/or his mother didn't introduce him to guns and train him to be violent then it would've been much more likely that Adam would've been a simple murder-suicide.

    I haven't read much into asperger's syndrome and therapy in relation to violence but I'm willing to bet that desensitization and violence don't mix well with asperger's, given that they're already more de-sensitized than the average person.
     
    #101 VanderbiltJets, Apr 22, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  2. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    The guy killed his mother then massacred an elementary school. You're trying to tell me it's far fetched that he'd break into a house to steal a gun? Why?
     
  3. VanderbiltJets

    VanderbiltJets Active Member

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    He committed those acts at places he was familiar with. You have to understand the profile (assuming he's aspergers) to understand why he'd be hesitant to go to "new" places. Asperger's means he's extremely withdrawn and likely to participate in repetitive activities (such as video games or drawing pictures) by himself as opposed to socializing or engaging others in a normal manner. If breaking and entering wasn't a part of his "routine", then it's very unlikely that he'd do it. Possessing and firing Lanza-owned weapons was, however, a part of his routine thanks to Nancy. Furthermore, I doubt he went anywhere other than his house or maybe the grocery store without his mother over the past few years.

    And all of that is without mentioning that he's clearly neither strong nor athletic, so breaking and entering isn't his cup of tea physically.

    Edit: Your basic position is to examine Adam as a rational actor, when really his behavior/tendencies are driven by his mental disorder as opposed to logical reasoning.
     
    #103 VanderbiltJets, Apr 22, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  4. BeastBeach

    BeastBeach Banned

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    Any time you start speculating by saying something won't work it is pretty much a bs argument. No offense but we have no way of knowing what would/wouldn't have deterred Adam Lanza or anybody that has done a mass shooting.

    I've argued before on this site that there is no way of knowing if any potential mass shootings have been rebuffed by gun control. For instance if a guy is off his meds and tries to buy a gun and gets rejected, and then either has a change of mind or goes back on his meds and never commits the planned act, then that was a success, no?

    Any time we are making it harder for people to commit mass violence it is a success. Problem is, nobody is going to come out and be like "yeah back in 99 I was gonna massacre a school full of children but because of a handgun waiting period I didn't go through with it." So statistics are basically useless in that sense.

    It is not an either/or as in gun control works or it doesn't. The best answer is that it works sometimes and it doesn't work sometimes. But America is all about trying to do better. It isn't about saying we are helpless to evil.
     
  5. VanderbiltJets

    VanderbiltJets Active Member

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    The actions of those with diagnosed mental disorders are much easier to predict than an "average" person.
     
  6. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    Statistics clearly show that gun control does not reduce gun violence. You cannot protect every citizen from every evil/insane person. Just like you can't protect your children from ever being hurt. It simply cannot be done. You want to tell me that's bullshit because it is, then we'll just disagree.

    Evil & insane people have always existed and always will. They will continue to murder innocent people and commit heinous acts using whatever means they have available. You won't stop that. No legislation will ever stop that. I guarantee it.
     
  7. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Statistics don't show shit. You have no idea what gun violence would be without the laws, either. And in cases where you try to make comparisons about places with and without gun control, you have no idea which way the causal arrow is pointing.

    It's one of the unfortunate aspects of policy analysis; creating randomized controls and limiting confounding factors is unethical, so there's not really a clear answer.
     
  8. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    Nonesense. NYC knows they can't stop the illegal transportation of guns from GA and VA so they have made it clear to gang members they can't bring their guns on the street. Lowest level of gun violence ever just when Chicago is going the other way.
     
  9. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    And Chicago has more strict gun control than NYC. So is it the gun control laws or some other factor?
     
  10. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    So lets keep infringing on law abiding citizens when we have no proof that the infringing is doing anything other than putting more government controls on us. :rolleyes:

    Again, let's go ahead and put a federal agent in every household to watch over us. Since we don't have any information showing it won't work, we should do it.
     
  11. BeastBeach

    BeastBeach Banned

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    How in the world could this be true. Just think about it. Are we able to come up with 2 locations that are identical in every aspect except for their gun control policy and then willing to let the bodies hit the floor however they may? If not then your statement is wrong.

    The fact that you are starting out with a definitive answer to a complex problem that is absolutely up for debate just shows you don't really care about the fact that you could be wrong.

    Stop setting up either/or scenarios. Nobody has ever said we are going to end gun violence completely. But if we can have a scenario in which law abiding citizens do not have their rights unduly trampled on while reducing gun violence, it should absolutely be worth considering without people making such definitive proclamations in order to advance their argument.

    "Gun control doesn't work"...that just makes me giggle. That's such a bumper sticker ideology like saying "war is not the answer" without considering context.
     
    #111 BeastBeach, Apr 22, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2013
  12. TheCoolerGlennFoley

    TheCoolerGlennFoley Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what all the people against additional background checks for guns have to say about the Patriot Act & added security at airports. Seems there were enough republicans then willing to some freedoms for safety then.
     
  13. BeastBeach

    BeastBeach Banned

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    Political leanings aside, I think we all would rather not have the full extent of the Patriot Act as our law. Especially given that it has been used to catch drug dealers the majority of the time. But it is humorous(I think...) when you see how little of a fight got put up against that compared to what is going on right now against mostly toothless gun control bills.
     
  14. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    If you're going to impose on citizens and infringe upon their second amendment rights - you should have some fucking evidence that what you're doing is going to make a huge positive impact. Instead we have a bunch of sheep that want to keep growing the government and giving the government more controls over us because they tell us they're making us more safe without any evidence to support that.

    I cannot believe how willing people are to keep allowing the government to impose more controls. I can't believe how many people blindly think that gun control is going to help when AGAIN, statistics clearly show gun control not having a positive impact over and over again. Apparently that just makes you giggle.

    Meanwhile, our outstanding government is continuing to tax us more and increase the national debt at alarming rates. But we need more government and more controls that haven't been proven to work. Where does it end?
     
  15. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    FTR ... I very much dislike the Patriot Act and cispa too.
     
  16. BeastBeach

    BeastBeach Banned

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    Now you're making more sense once you get beyond such blanket statements as "gun control doesn't work".

    If we want to discuss what types of restrictions we are willing to deal with in order to limit gun deaths then that is a good discussion. But blindly pointing to statistics that CANNOT be valid by the obvious limitations to how they are gathered is a waste of time.

    The only type of statistic that matters would be by using a natural experiment, and there are no two locations that are similar enough to make the sort of definitive declaration that you seem to love making. It just does not exist.

    For the record, my position is that I don't know whether there is a type of gun control that would be effective enough while still protecting our rights, but it is certainly worth exploring.

    Your position seems to be that you have the answer(that couldn't possibly exist) so there is no point in trying. Seems pretty damn arrogant to me considering there are scholars who have devoted their entire careers to studying the subject.

    Correct me if I'm wrong. Or if you could point to this definitive proof then I'm all ears.
     
  17. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    I don't think I have the answer at all. I would be shocked if their is a good answer. I just strongly disagree with the government shoving more and more controls down my throat without damn good evidence backing it up. What's next, are they going to limit the size of my soda?

    My general feeling is that their probably isn't a good answer and that unless you can make a strong case that something is going to make a very big impact I don't want a government control.

    We live, we die. I'd prefer to be free in between. The evil actions of the few shouldn't change my freedoms and liberties.
     
  18. BeastBeach

    BeastBeach Banned

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    Fair enough. And the soda thing is ridiculous. Although I don't like having to pay for fatty's diabetes and heart disease.
     
  19. NotSatoshiNakamoto

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    That's what happens when we have socialized healthcare.
     
  20. Cappy

    Cappy Well-Known Member

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    Just because there is no statistical proof doesn't mean you have to throw common sense out the window entirely.

    Look, if you concede that ordinary citizens should not possess stinger missiles, then you admit that there can be SOME restriction of what arms may be borne. And once you admit that, the logical debate should about where that line should be, not crying about how your rights are being infringed upon at the merest whiff of legislation.

    I prefer less legislation as opposed to more, and don't agree with the current form of the assault weapons ban, but most of the arguments against gun control legislation are a little... um... hysterical.
     

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