Richard Sherman inadvertinly said "the jets QBs sucks"

Discussion in 'National Football League' started by SolidGoldBowles, Aug 3, 2017.

  1. BigSnacks54

    BigSnacks54 Well-Known Member

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    Meeting with police officers, very rarely helps to stimulates discussion. It's a simple statement of "we need to be better..:" It doesn't ask deeper questions, it doesn't identify the problems at hand in society, it's a stand that is done to make people feel better- unfortunately when discussing topics such as these one party or another will be alienated or insulted. If the feelings of those individuals and not those also actually enduring injustices, were to be put forth at center stage, there would still be Jim Crow, the Civil War would have not happened. That cannot be the main priority. The simple matter is that many are reluctant to acknowledge that in this country, we are separated and divided by characteristics, such as gender and color. Instead of acknowledging this, they attempt to distance themselves from these topics, by actually not talking about them all. Ever heard of the comment "I don't see color.?

    I'm sure you have. That's an example of what I'm speaking about it. With a topic as delicate as race and how emotive it can be, expecting a minority who openly comments about what he believes to be perceived slights to be received with open arms is naive. The reason I mentioned MLK earlier is because he carried out his protest in the ideal manner yet he was met with vicious, hateful, and resentful comments that are similar to Kap. Have you ever read the responses to some of his protests in letters? The content of the responses include comments about black on black crime, admonishing the form of protest, and many other knows that would make you think your reading letters drafted in 2017.

    Again, why should kneeling for the national anthem be seen as childish? Symbols are inherently simple in nature, they are intended to force fed or prop the virtues of an individual, state or country. However, the meaning of symbols can be shaped/ altered by an individual's background. What may be viewed as the blood sweat and tears of a nation to one person, may be viewed as the blood sweat and tears of lineage that consisted of slavery. That's what the flag represents to some people- to some people it is a symbol of oppression of their people, not the greatness of America. It is the the symbol of some of a country that has prevented their people from advancing. In addition, Francis Scott Key was a slave owner, there are also lines (truncated), that can be interpreted as racist in nature. With these factors considered, why is it suddenly considered heinous, stupid, or childish that one choose to protest the anthem to display one's deprecation of injustice? My question to you is what method of protest should Kap have chosen? What method of protest, which included him being forceful in his opinion, which one would have led to the acceptance of his message and rejection of injustices?

    What in our history makes you come to the assumption that the treatment or reaction to his message is simply because of his form of protest? Our country has a history of division, sparked by racial tensions. If Acts of protest to overthrow certain overt racism means were meant with fierce resistance, what reason do I have to assume that Kap's method was the issue? What else could have chosen to bring notoriety to the issue at hand, without sugar coating what he perceived to be true? Looking at our history, I have no reason to assume he would not have been met with this resistance, regardless of whatever method he chose. People will find the next crutch and excuse to hold to diminish the argument. The inability to actually understand that racism is not overt, but many times covert, and the inability to sometimes be able to fully define racism and it's content in entirety is why I believe that protests even by people far more eloquent than Kap will fail to resonate with a majority of our country. Many are just incapable of recognizing, or they simply choose to ignore it .

    Kap is certainly flawed, as I have said before. It's possible that following his initial protest, that he did, indeed, have a few botches of his own. But his initial protest was not disruptive. It was not loud. It was silent. If that form of protest is childish and rejected so vehemently, change will never occur in this country.
     
    #121 BigSnacks54, Aug 5, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2017
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  2. GordonGecko

    GordonGecko Well-Known Member

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    Seen? No it's exactly what it is, a big fuck you to the hand that feeds you. If you have something to say you don't do it by turning traitor, and has nothing to do with free speech because free speech ends at your employer's door. Have the right to piss on the flag? Yeah absolutely, and the league has the right not to want you anywhere near their product. The cause is irrelevant when you show such disrespect, he could have been protesting lack of puppy rescue shelters or lack of children's cancer funding it wouldn't have mattered because what he did was so out of line
     
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  3. TwoHeadedMonster

    TwoHeadedMonster Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this statement. In my opinion, one of the biggest criticisms I have of Kap's protest is that he lacked the foresight to recognize that his chosen form of protest automatically gave the vast majority of the population an 'easy out' by allowing the main stem of discussion to focus not on racial injustice in this country, but rather on how a man who accumulated great wealth and fame for playing a game is showing disrespect to the only nation on earth in which he could have accumulated that great wealth and fame for playing that game.

    Yes, people are mostly morons and assholes. That's why giving them an 'easy out' and allowing them to attack the messenger and the vehicle of message delivery rather than forcing them to confront the actual message was a colossal mistake.

    Well, there are lots of options here. Sit-ins, marches, speeches, starting a non-profit for the cause, holding a hunger strike. Sure, all of those things would have led to some folks being angry, and would have led to some folks rejecting the message. That's going to happen no matter what, recall that people are mostly morons and assholes. Yet, demonstrations that elicit sympathy and empathy have a much greater overall positive response to the message than call people out for being morons and assholes--those just convince everyone else that the messenger is also a moronic asshole. Hence the response we've seen.

    Resistance, yes. However, a well thought-out and executed demonstration would cut right to the heart of the matter, leave no easy avenue to assault the messenger or the means of delivering the message, and elicit sufficient sympathy and/or empathy for the cause to more than offset the fierce resistance to the message.

    I'm not saying that's easy. It's damned near impossible. But MLK did it, Gandhi made it his life's work, Jesus did it, Mandela did it, and there have been lots of others who have done these things on varying scales. It hasn't ended well for all of them, and many will never be known, and if they were are lost to history.

    Honestly, I think this whole thing would have been more effective if either A) Kap had chosen one or more of the methods listed above, and gone for the biggest IMPACT for social justice instead of the biggest media splash for Colin Kaepernick, or B) a better player than Kap had started this whole thing. Everyone knows that this story is different if Tom Brady takes a knee. I don't think it even has to go that far, if Cam Newton or Russel Wilson starts this thing, the whole story is different. The media take is different, the public perspective is different, everything is different.

    The messenger matters. Same thing with Tebow. If Big Ben or Drew Brees had all the same behaviors as Tebow, but played and produce as they do, that behavior would be more accepted by the public.

    Legitimately or otherwise, Kap and Tebow both come off like pro wrestlers--they're not very good at their jobs, so they have come up with a gimmick that keeps them in the spotlight.
     
  4. BigSnacks54

    BigSnacks54 Well-Known Member

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    The main reason I have brought up MLK several times in this thread, who I believe today is considered by even those who reject Kap or those that support him, is because of the gold standard status he has received for his method and ways of attacking and excoriating racial justice in this country. If a man as eloquent and adroit as MLK was meant with grave resistance to his form of protest, then I sincerely doubt that any form of protest, that includes a hardline stance will be met with the requisite support to offset the resistance to the cause. You seem to disagree with my aforementioned opinion, but a man who so vehemently and forcefully attacked "moderate whites" as he said, is not one who I would presume to been have met with showers of praise:



    "First, I must confess that over the last few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can't agree with your methods of direct action;" who paternalistically feels he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by the myth of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait until a "more convenient season."

    h
    ttp://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/45a/060.html- the full quote is listed here, if you want to look at it.


    Mind you this was made, 3-4 years after his initial protests. Also, he is not speaking of people whom I'd consider to be idiots or overt racists. So here he we have a man, who he had gone through the full experience adopting proper methods, preaching a message that you think would resonate with any compassionate human being, essentially completing and executing all the tasks and actions that I presume many would say Kap did not. Yet, after 4 years, despite all of his efforts, that statement above is all he could muster about the very people he tried so desperately to recruit to his side. Yes, ultimately his contributions, in large part, did lead to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but I still question if that occurred as result of "swaying" the every day person, so to speak. When I take into the account some of the protest that took place after the passing of the bill, the resistance it was met and the voting shift that occurred South(MLK's main target) , I have to question if the sympathetic response had any offsetting power. Fortunately the right people, the people who actually had the power to ensure change did so, but the people or a regular every day civilians? They clearly did not aid him in his mission.

    What people want is the peaceful protest, that says we need to be united, that say we needed to be better. They don't want to answer, dwell on, or hear of the hard hitting questions that sometimes can require introspection or make people uncomfortable. Starting a nonprofit organization or the cause, donating money(which I believe he actually has done), or a warm, fuzzy speech doesn't help with that. . To me, these acts needs to be accompanied with a hard line stance, not one that actively seeks to avoid the problem in fear of public outrage. At the 2016 ESPYS, LeBron James and a few of his buddies delivered one of the speeches that I've mentioned. Their statements included comments such as "We need to be better", "Enough is Enough." Of course that was meant with a loud round of applause, and they were praised for their act by the media. Everyone agreed with the message at its core. After a week? That story was no longer spoke of... it descended from the sports sphere and all in all nothing was accomplished. I suppose your rebuttal will be that Kap's method did not inspire any change or accomplish anything too. That would be true, but I'd much rather have the messenger, or civil rights activists, call it as how they see it rather than diminish or water down their message so that they will be universally accepted.

    Judging by your last paragraph, I'm assuming that you believe had Kap carried out his protest 3 or 4 years ago, at the peak of his powers as a QB in the league that he would have generated more sympathy applause? Prior to super bowl 50, Cam Newton went on record saying that he believed much of the criticism he received for his celebrations and confidence was rooted in fear- fear he believed stimulated by the color of his skin. Four days later, after receiving heat for his comments, Cam retracted his statement, distancing himself from the racial aspect of his comments. From his very lips he said his comments were not intended to be a "race thing." In the following months, Cam Newton continued to make comments of that like, when asked about topics pertaining to race, this time saying that we as a people are beyond race. Anyone with a clue can see that the backlash and controversy of Cam's comment, led to his a modulation of his thoughts on this topic. So, if Cam Newton, the league MVP of that season, felt the need to back off from his prior stance because of admonishment, I sincerely doubt he would have been met with much sympathy had he carried out a national anthem protest. Unlike Kap, he would not have been called a shock jock, but there's no doubt in my mind that he would had to endure all the other arguments Kap has had to face and that the overall level of resistance would have been similar. In other words, I believe the narrative would have been marginally different.
     
  5. BigSnacks54

    BigSnacks54 Well-Known Member

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    @TwoHeadedMonster

    The site's not allowing me to make my post in it's full form in 1 part, so here's the final portion of it:

    I don't know or have any clue at what a response to Brady kneeling would have looked like, but it does fascinate me. When people see rich minorities protesting racial injustice, many times, they are incapable the past $$$$. As they work 9-5 office jobs, scratching and clawing to make ends meet, they wonder how someone like Kap , making millions of dollars could dare carry out a protest and call he and others are victims of racial injustice Like you said, to them it's not protesting, but ungratefulness. That kind of line of thinking , however, ignores several dynamic, the important one being that money does not rescue you from racism. A star of Brady's magnitude that, one not associate with these minority community whatsoever, may have actually carried out a protest that resonated deeply with the general populace.

    We've strayed so far from the original topic, but I believe that our differences of opinion stems from the belief that you think Kap's method of protest is part of the intolerable responses he has received. I just think it's the content.
     
  6. TwoHeadedMonster

    TwoHeadedMonster Well-Known Member

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    Solid response, BigSnacks.

    I think your final sentences accurately summarize our differences of opinion on this matter.
    Particularly in light of what happened in Charlottesville, today, I must admit that there is certainly a sizable portion of the population that, for reasons I cannot possibly conceive, absolutely would not be receptive to the content of this protest no matter what form it had taken. However, I stand by my assertion that the delivery and the context of delivery matter very much. Some folks already have their minds made up about things, and those folks are going to be adversarial or accepting no matter what. Others think they're open minded, but, subconsciously are going to be adversarial or accepting of the message regardless of the delivery. I think (or perhaps naively hope?) that the size of these groups is much smaller than the group that would be receptive to the right message delivered in the right context.

    If that's not the case, and you're right, and people really suck as badly as they seem, then I am truly sad for us all.
     
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