Pat Mahomes

Discussion in 'Draft' started by JethroTull, Jan 4, 2017.

  1. Rextasy

    Rextasy Well-Known Member

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    The worst thing that can happen to this kid is him getting drafted by a team that tries to change him. The kid has immense natural talent, let him play the game the way he plays it. Brett Fabre had horrible mechanics too but his talent took over and he became a hall of famer with those horrible mechanics.

    Sure he has to learn the pro game but you can't teach the kind of talent he has.
     
  2. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    There's one more possibility that combines elements of #2 and #3 above. That possibility is that the TTU coaches only care about winning football games, not preparing players for an NFL career. (I'm guessing that when coaching candidates, especially HC ones, are interviewed or given a contract, there is no mention of preparing players for the NFL.) This is true at many, if not most, colleges/universities and high schools. We see it all the time in the NFL. Players come into the NFL who have not only gotten by, but succeeded on natural ability alone because they were faster, more athletic, bigger and/or stronger than most of the other players at their level. Look at the draft profiles of many of the top players at their positions in the draft. You see QBs who have never taken a snap from under center, who have shoddy footwork, poor arm angles, etc., you see pass rushers with only one move or who have poor hand usage, you see LBs who can't get off blocks or who are shoddy tacklers, you have DBs who can't turn their head or who take poor angles to the ball or who are shoddy tacklers, you see OL who don't keep their pad level low and/or don't have good hand positioning when blocking or who lunge at their man in pass protection. Any of us could go on and on with these flaws, that they should have been fixed and proper fundamentals learned in high school or most certainly in college. The problem is that football is too popular and parents, players and fans want to win at every level above everything else. I think it's absolutely ridiculous that high school football games are being televised now. What's next, televising Pop Warner games?

    Once they get to the NFL many of these players who got by on their natural ability struggle because everyone in the NFL is at their level or higher. Some are able to learn the fundamentals and then have varying levels of success. Others cannot and fail. Those high school and college coaches know that they can win a lot of games with the very talented, if fundamentally raw athlete. They know if they try to teach the kid the correct fundamentals, he's gonna struggle because he'll be thinking too much and can lose confidence, and thus the team will struggle. They further know that: 1) if the fundamental issues are complex or profound, that they'll probably have to bench the kid for a while so he can focus on fixing those things; 2) a lesser player will have to start in his place; and 3) that they won't win as many games, and as a result, may not get a raise or promotion, or may even lose their jobs. On some levels it's self preservation, but also some selfishness and uncaring, just using individual players to try to move up the ladder of success.

    With relation to Possibility #2 above, sometimes it's a matter of the coaches at the lower levels not knowing the correct fundamentals or not being good/creative at teaching them. Everyone learns at different speeds and in different ways. Some are more visual learners, others are more kinesthetic (learn by doing), others are more aural. It's difficult for players to learn their offense or defense, learn weekly game plans while trying to focus on basic fundamentals. Compound that with the fact that many players aren't that intelligent and it's little wonder that many don't develop proper fundamentals/technique. Time is limited, so probably most coaches make an attempt to teach the fundamentals, but if their players struggle with it, the coaches probably tell them to forget about it and just play.
     
    #322 NCJetsfan, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  3. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    you are dead on alleycat. it is a damn shame. lots of coaches out there thinking of short term gains instead of a young man's future. Their offenses were successful with Mahomes just chucking it however he wanted so they didn't want to risk making themselves look bad to fix the kid's mechanics and help his future. IMO that is bad coaching. I don't care about W/L records, that is coaching the game wrong.

    and that's just high school. When he went to college Mahomes should've been redshirted his freshman year and spent all his time on the football field learning how to throw and play QB the right way. If he went through some set backs he could've sat the bench his sophomore year as well.

    But tough love like that doesn't help you land recruits and these waspy college coaches make way too many promises to players. They probably landed Mahomes because they promised they would play him right away. Meanwhile a couple years later it did nothing but damage his chances at the next level
     
    #323 BrowningNagle, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
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  4. Big Cat

    Big Cat Well-Known Member

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    This thread was started in January when Mahomes was a "3rd round pick"
     
  5. Br4d

    Br4d 2009 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award

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    Mahomes came into the process rated as a 3rd-4th round pick. That's probably where he belongs. No reason we can't take him at the place he should be taken. Russell Wilson - 3rd Round, Dak Prescott - 4th Round.

    Taking him on the 6 or 39 would be a likely disaster in the making, a Sanchez-Smith level disaster.
     
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  6. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    There will never be a Brett Favre type again. By that, I mean a QB that is successful in the NFL playing the game like your drunk buddy does in the backyard in between flipping burgers. There just won't. He was a truly wacky success story
     
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  7. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    exactly. which is where he should be drafted in April. a 3rd round (tops) project
     
  8. Br4d

    Br4d 2009 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award

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    Almost every great QB is unique. That's what makes them great.
     
  9. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Only 1.5% of NCAA football players get drafted by the NFL, and fewer of those actually get to have careers. A coach hired by a university should be focused on winning. In a perfect world, the emphasis should be on getting an education, building character, developing sportsmanship, athleticism, yada, yada, yada, but we all know that's not the case. The coach's paycheck depends on him winning, not developing fodder for the NFL. I'm sure any player deemed talented enough to play pro football will have plenty of NFL scouts, alumni, mentors, etc., to tell him what he needs to work on to make it in the pros, and there are plenty of post-collegiate rookie boot camps to help him get ready.
     
    #329 westiedog1, Apr 14, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2017
  10. Rextasy

    Rextasy Well-Known Member

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    The fact of the matter is he won't last til the 3rd or 4th round, likely not even til our 2nd. So if the Jets really do love him they will likely have to take him at 6 or even better somewhere later in the first after a trade down.

    Wentz was a 3rd or 4th round pick when the process started last year and became the 2nd pick and I'm sure no one in the Eagles organization is unhappy about that now.
     
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  11. Br4d

    Br4d 2009 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award

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    What is it about the Jets and young QB's that makes you believe the Jets can develop a young QB *like* Mahomes into a stable NFL QB?

    I just see nothing in the record that suggests that Mahomes will be anything more than yet another failed project at QB for the Jets. I really want them to go get a guy from a pro style offense who is considered to be a very good prospect and try to develop him at this point. Unfortunately that guy is not available this year.

    Taking another guy from the Air Raid isn't going to fix things for us unless we get very lucky in the process. If he falls to the 3rd/4th round and the Jets want to do that I'm fine with it but spending a blue chip pick on another project is like chewing on glass at this point.
     
  12. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 Well-Known Member

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    Not the same prospect. Totally different QBs.
     
  13. Martin&theJETS

    Martin&theJETS Well-Known Member

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    Can we close this thread?
     
  14. alleycat9

    alleycat9 Well-Known Member

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    the craziest part to me is htat they are so short sighted that they dont realize if they help him and work with him and make him better he will make their team better. its insanity to think that teaching a kid will make the team worse. i think a big part of it is that guys simply dont know or understand the fundamentals. the youth coaches are dads, the high school coaches are math teachers with assistants now a days that are dads and the college coaches have no excuse in my eyes. none whatsoever other than the thought that you cant teach an old dog new tricks.
     
  15. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Prescott & Wilson were 3rd & 4th rounders b.c they lacked anything significant that stood out in their evaluations beyond intangibles and MAYBE mobility...they were elite game managers in college & thats ultimately what they are on the pro level. They have adequate skill sets that allow their intangible abilities to flourish. Both went to franchises that had quality surrounding casts in place that allowed them to come in & have success.It'd be hard to decipher whether they'd elevate their games quite as significantly if they went to a bare cupboard where they needed to carry a team.Of the QB prospects in this draft the one I'd place in this category is Deshaun Watson. That said...w. the high demand for signal callers in this pass driven league...these types will likely no longer last beyond MAYBE the early 2nd round. It's just like the baseball draft w. pitching. If the given prospect has a ceiling anywhere close to being an ace or an overpowering reliever...they are going in the 1st 3 rounds( I equate the first 3 rounds of the MLB draft to that of RD 1 in the nfl given the disparity of total number of rounds between the 2 systems as well as the pipeline set up)

    Mahomes has plus size,athleticism,pocket presence,arm talent & intangible.If he had the mechanics so many of you are griping about...he'd be a no brainer top 5 pick & we'd likely only be discussing him as a potential trade up...and goodness gracious many on here wouldnt want that under ANY circumstance.

    Every year there is this undercurrent on this site of folks that are either simply afraid of failure associated w. taking a QB early...or are waiting for this perfect QB prospect w. plus attributes across the board...all conference...all everything...who somehow is going to fall to where ever the Jets are selecting. Guess what? We had Elway in 82 & Luck in 2011...nearly 30 years between them...and both went #1 overall. Were there other franchise QB's drafted during that time frame? Ugh.yeah. Rattle the names off...and you can bet there was an undercurrent within this fan base screaming from the high heavens that we should pass & either take a shot on a mid rounder or wait till next year...

    Don't point to 2018 either...guarantee there will be folks downplaying every single QB prospect for whatever perceived fault they have & calling for us to go OL or defense. Again.

    We've tried the mid round/development plan repeatedly....the Jets simply don't develop the position well enough...and maybe it's too hard in this market, for this team, with this fan base...to climb up the depth chart & become the answer to a 50 year riddle. At some point there has to be conviction. At some point you have to decide what qualities we should really prioritize...and which ones we can overlook until they are actually acquired...understanding that if a guy truly is a "can't miss" short of us picking top 2...or mortgaging the future...he's not a realistic possibility.

    I'm not stating Mahomes is the answer to all of this. Those who don't like him have their reasons. But the insanely high standard people have for the QB position is just totally unrealistic & unattainable.
     
  16. Rextasy

    Rextasy Well-Known Member

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    Sure of course they are, there haven't been many QB prospects like Mahomes, he is a very unique talent. I personally think the upside of Mahomes is way higher than Wentz though.

    Point was that many years a QB prospect comes out of nowhere and goes higher than they were projected when the process started.
     
  17. Martin&theJETS

    Martin&theJETS Well-Known Member

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    Have a good arm, play in a pro-style offense, and be the smartest player on the team.
     
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  18. Rextasy

    Rextasy Well-Known Member

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    So we're supposed to just sit and wait for this perfect prospect to fall into the Jets lap? I've been waiting 30 years for that, I'm sick of waiting. In all my years following the Jets there has been exactly one time that they were in position to select whichever QB they wanted and that was Pennington, who probably would've worked out if his shoulder wasn't destroyed.
     
  19. Br4d

    Br4d 2009 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award

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    This is desperation though. Take anybody just to get somebody.

    All I'm saying is an Air Raid QB is not likely to be the answer. At least not for a team that has no time to develop him.

    Peter King is right. Sitting behind Philip Rivers might work. Spilling his guts on the field in NY probably will not.
     
  20. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    While what you say is undoubtedly true, we'll just have to agree to disagree whether anything is wrong with that. Those players talented enough play pro football are what help keep bread on the table and a roof over the head of coaches. They are owed to be taught how to play the game correctly so that they have the best chances of succeeding.

    I would tend to agree if players had to stay in college for 4 years. Then the coaches could focus on fundamentals with those players for their freshman and sophomore seasons (or until they mastered them), and then let them just play the rest of their seasons.
     

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