How to rebuild without a franchise QB

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by BamaDoc, Feb 26, 2017.

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How would you try to rebuild ?

  1. rebuilding while trying to be competitive

    3 vote(s)
    7.5%
  2. rebuild by a emphasis on the draft and getting draft picks.

    37 vote(s)
    92.5%
  1. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    I would add the Broncos to your list: 203 picks since 1993 = 8.83 picks a year. And they're always in the SB discussion.
     
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  2. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    I initially had them as the 5th pick in the analysis and then I went and looked at what they had actually accomplished over the span and absent Peyton Manning, who was a providential free agent who was great and wanted to go to them when they had already build the team for him, they really haven't been all that successful since Elway retired.

    You could be right though. They're the only team that is on the cusp of the category other than the 4 that are there. Their down period in the mid 00's looks a lot like the Steelers down period in the early 00's.

    Ok, add them in also.

    In a few years the Cowboys or Eagles could hop back into contention for the category but they've both had really bad down periods as well.

    The main point is that the Jets just do not value the draft enough to be a consistent contender and free agents will never fix that because they have a short expiration date on them compared to a young drafted player.

    The other linking point may well be how much the teams that value the draft are willing to spend on their scouting and evaluation infrastructure and personnel and how hard they search to make sure they have exactly the right people to do that job.
     
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  3. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    It's not just the number of draft picks. It's also the players those teams pick. Yes, as far as the Jets are concerned, we've had fewer draft picks due largely to Tanny, but our GMs have also done a much worse job with the picks they've had.
     
  4. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    I agree. And I have made the point (and been dissed for it) that both Hess and Johnson were/are cheap, and value their ROI then winning. I don't know how much they spend on the areas you mentioned, but either they haven't spent enough (likely), or they've spent foolishly - or both.

    The other linkage comes from having owners that actually KNOW how to build a successful football franchise, and I'll include the Broncos in that group too. No coincidence that the last time the Jets were really successful was before Hess when they had an owner and FO that actually knew about football.
     
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  5. BamaDoc

    BamaDoc Active Member

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    Thank you this is one of the points I am trying to make!!!! Sustained success over time is via the draft, granted with people who know what they are doing. For NCJets fan, you certainly can sign free agents especially young and cheap but it may cost you a compensation draft pick. Thats why, in my opinion, you don't sign free agents the first couple years of the rebuild as they will cost picks and may not still be in prime as the rebuild builds to fruition. If that is the case, they cost you picks also by improving your record that first couple years. The worst thing is to put a 28+ year old in who keeps a younger player from possibly developing.
     
    #25 BamaDoc, Feb 26, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  6. BamaDoc

    BamaDoc Active Member

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    Exactly! I have no idea where to find the off the field expenses for teams. With the new CBA limiting practice time, it is imperative to have the best teachers you can buy. Especially with the scheme changes in college, QBs and O Linemen really seem to be underdeveloped. I would be trying the virtual reality things for QB's and have fundamentals and mechanics drills for them to do all offseason. The stuff about "we will work on Hacks fundamentals in the offseason" to me was a fireable offense. I get maybe our OC couldn't be in two places at once but we damn sure could have paid a qb guru to work with him on the third field. I believe the money spent in this area is up to each team. Why can't we buy the best staff out there? Steinbrenner didn't let things get in his way.
     
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  7. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    If you have somebody who is so broken that they need to be completely retaught how to play the position you have no business having that person on the team in the first place.

    The Hackenberg pick was a level of wishful thinking that is almost impossible to rationalize from a competitive standpoint. That it was made on the #51 overall pick just compounds that fact.

    It's not that hard to just go by the book and do the things that good franchises do and have done for decades. Trying to reinvent the wheel with exotic and bizarre projects over and over again is only really defensible if they work and with the Jets they *never* work out in the end.
     
  8. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    AMEN!

    I'm sorry, but I just cannot accept that Hackenberg is any good. If he were, then he would've seen some reps, and certainly some playing time when the season was toast. And the rationale that "They weren't going to do anything with him until after the season" just doesn't add up to a 2nd round talent. The longer this charade goes on, the more time and money the Jets are wasting.
     
  9. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    The way I look at it the kind of project that Hackenberg represents is the type that occasionally shows up when a guy with an eye for talent looks at a UDFA and asks himself why that guy never panned out, got drafted, etc. Then 99% of the time he shrugs his shoulders and moves on.

    The other 1% of the time a Kurt Warner or Tony Romo materializes seemingly out of thin air because the guy doing the looking is so good at working with that type of player that he decides "oh what the hell!" and tries to make it happen anyway. And of course he and the guy have to get really lucky in the process because what he's working with normally gets zero resources in an NFL organization.

    With Hackenberg the Jets have a major investment devoted to trying to make a Kurt Warner or Tony Romo appear when all the indicators are that this is not going to happen. Who is playing the Mike Martz/Todd Haley role for the Jets? Is there anybody playing that role at the moment? Chan Gailey is gone, so is Kevin Patullo. Were they part of the evaluation process that said yes to Hackenberg? If so and they are gone does that make him an orphan, with only the GM standing behind him at this point?
     
  10. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I agree about the 28 year olds, and you don't want an older player who won't be with the team long term holding back a younger player. I also understand your point about not winning too many games too early, and mostly agree with it, but as I see it, there are a couple of problems with your approach.

    One, the team HAS to spend a certain amount of the cap over a 4-5 year period. If they sign no FAs, with a bunch of players on their first contract, that won't happen. Two, with only drafted players on the team, by the time you draft enough players to fill all of the Jets' holes and get solid depth, the first draft or two of players will be aged out.

    IMO, it's just not realistic to think that the Jets can build their team only using draft picks.
     
  11. HardHitta

    HardHitta Well-Known Member

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    I can see the need for to do another "competitive rebuild" being that we haven't made the playoffs in 7 years and have been bad for most of those years and the fan base would pretty much bail on going to most games... BUT after failing pretty much with it this time around it makes the most sense for a true rebuild. That's what I would do. Might take 2-3 years but we would be better off for sure. Cut the dead weight, sign some younger talented players and load up on picks the best we can and rebuild thru the draft for the most part.
     
  12. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    No, it doesn't. We have a new OC and QB Coach. I'm sure that part of the vetting process for each was how and what they'd do with Petty and Hack to develop them, or at least it should have been. If Bowles alone made the hirings, however, all bets are off.
     
  13. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Why beat around the bush? What you want is to lose as many games as possible to get the highest draft pick possible. Ask Herm about that.

    If you're not going to try to be competitive, you've lost me, probably forever - I won't watch quitters.

    Just to eliminate any doubt, that's me up there, the lone vote for rebuilding while still trying to win games, while still showing some character and some balls.
     
    #33 Ralebird, Feb 26, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2017
  14. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    WTG Br4d ... gotta be best Post of offseason so far..

    Maybe more people with you on the Trade Down scenario
     
  15. Mainejet

    Mainejet Well-Known Member

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    As much as I'd like to think a competitive rebuild (and I voted option 1) is possible, the fact is that has been tried many times with the Jets already. Every front office has tried and failed at remaining competitive while they rebuild. The only thing it has ever resulted in is a middle of the road season followed by a bottom feeder season. It was very apparent from like 2003 through like 2008... 6-10, 10-6, 4-12, 10-6, 4-12, 9-7....

    Bottom line was the team never became a serious contender. So I just can't say that Mac could ever do things any differently. He's been here two years now and everyone knows he SUCKS.

    Really I think Woody would need to fire both of the shitheads and start with new guys for option 1 to be possible.
     
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  16. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Competitive Rebuild = Circle Jerk
     
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  17. DarrelleRevis.Human?

    DarrelleRevis.Human? Well-Known Member

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    It takes a team that is absolutely loaded on both sides of the ball to be consistently good without a quality starting QB. (Reference 2009-2010 NYJ)

    In recent memory I can only think of 3 teams that have been able to win a SB with this formula, and they happen to be some of the greatest teams of our era.
    2000 Ravens, 2002 Buccaneers, and 2015 Broncos

    It's not a good formula.
     
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  18. BamaDoc

    BamaDoc Active Member

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    One, the team HAS to spend a certain amount of the cap over a 4-5 year period. If they sign no FAs, with a bunch of players on their first contract, that won't happen. Two, with only drafted players on the team, by the time you draft enough players to fill all of the Jets' holes and get solid depth, the first draft or two of players will be aged out.

    IMO, it's just not realistic to think that the Jets can build their team only using draft picks.[/QUOTE]


    In my scenario, using signing bonus money to facilitate better trade returns, you will in fact be spending some of the needed money. Speeding up the rebuild is exactly why I was paying that money out. A surplus will also allow you to lock up those players, that deserve it, with earlier extensions. The f ing Patriots won a super bowl and are currently 60 million under next years cap!!!!!!!!!! Well managed, draft based works.
     
  19. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, like Herm's a great person to ask about building a winner.

    Showing character and balls. ROFLMAO Right. The only thing you're showing is insanity, trying to do things in the same way the Jets have been doing them for the last decade or more, and expecting a different and better outcome. Lots of NFL teams have done rebuilds. There comes a point where the competitive rebuild or retooling on the fly, or whatever you want to call it doesn't work any more. Trying to remain competitive, you make decisions and personnel moves that prohibit your team from ever getting to where it wants and needs to be.
     
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  20. James Hasty

    James Hasty Well-Known Member

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    You need balance to be successful.

    Sure, looking at the big picture you want to ask yourself who will be on the roster three to four years from now when we are ready to make our Superbowl run. Those players that will still be here are the core of your team.

    With that being said, you always need to have a mix of young players and veterans. The young guys need to learn from the veterans. You also need veterans to fill holes on your roster so you can be competitive.

    It is not necessary to go over the cap and go balls out trying to win the playoffs or the Superbowl but you don't want your team to become the kind of a joke that causes your own free agents to leave for greener pastures or makes it impossible to attract free agents from other teams.

    Also, sometimes in the second or third year of your four year plan the future is now. A couple shrewd signings and an awesome draft class can turn a middle of the road team into a serious contender. Waiting until year four when your plan is complete could mean losing your best player to injury forces you to start all over again.
     
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