Cimini laying it out - Good Read

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Cman68, Dec 13, 2018.

  1. Zach

    Zach Well-Known Member

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    You KNOW you are not making sense at all, right?

    1. So let's say there is a host of players Macc wants, and Bowles wants. [I will dub them Group Mac and Group Bowles] What guarantee do you have, that Mac picking Group Mac kids would look better on the field? Remember, the coaching staff was all hand-picked by Bowles ultimately. Bowles trains them, prepares them, and sends them on the pitch. So you are saying that if Mac stayed with HIS board, things would have been better, right?

    2. Let's say Mac has been doing just that for the sake of the argument. Shouldn't that mean there is a conflict between the GM and HC either way? And you trust Bowles to coach the kids up and make them presentable on the field? Just look this year. Maybe Jets do have some young talents on the team, but do they look anywhere near useful? Isn't that more on the coaching staff? Think about it. Maybe Mac absolutely sucks at evaluating talent. And every prospect he brings in is a reach and bust. OR the coaches suck. I am going with the latter. [Ockham's razor tells me I should go with the ineptitude of the coaching staff.]

    3. My question is, regardless of what Mac decides, will there be a noticeable difference in the outcome? [I just don't see any potential difference, if at all. You need to enlighten me if you see any.] So why do you blame Macc for things out of his control? Isn't he in a lose-lose condition either way? If I am losing no matter what, I would let the coach do the fucking up, if I had to be in that situation too.
     
  2. stinkyB

    stinkyB 2009 Best Avatar Award Winner

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    ""They don't fit the mentality of the fan base," a former Jets staffer said of the current leadership. "Show some guts, show some balls. There's none of that. They need to hire someone who can identify with the fan base.""

    That's another little tidbit that has me irked.... especially in regards to the "Homefield advantage" thread.

    Historically the JETS were the iconoclast team.... The "every man's team", the "Brown Baggers" as opposed to the "Blue Bloods" (Giants)

    So now it's owned by the epitome of "blue bloods"... a dork that never had to do anything but collect inheritance, and I think that just adds to the disconnect.
     
  3. Since1969

    Since1969 Well-Known Member

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    You know things have really gone to hell in a handbasket when we're praising a Cimini article! Yikes.

    For the record, the article we're discussing is one of the better Cimini articles I have ever read.
     
  4. My father used to always say he preferred the old world catholic priest who was gonna tell him he was going to hell every Sunday rather than the new school more diplomatic priest.

    I like to think of Cimini in that same light.Hes snarky,condescending & definitely can be a dick..but in seasons like this when this franchise shows little regard for embarassing themselves & indirectly we the fans,i find great comfort in the Ciminis & Benignos of the universe.
     
  5. SOJAZ

    SOJAZ Well-Known Member

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    Having been around for everything that our friend Cinimi, I unfortunately have to concur completely. There have been some horrendous GM and coaches under Hess and now we have Woody.

    IMHO One poster nailed it,,,they need a new structure. A VP of FB operations who the GM and coach reports to. They should hire someone who is no nonsense, who should evaluate everything from admin, trainers, boy balls/girls, scouts, everything dam thing including ownership and come out with a an action plan with baseline metrics to be measured.
    ``
    This team has some talent but has holes, I.e., OL, WR, rusher, etc . etc. but unless you get the org straight it will be the same mess.

    Finally, I seen some shitty coaches (and GM for that matter) come thru here but I got to tell TB is right up with the top two or three losers Charlie Winner, kotite). The statement by our players should have that SOB kicked-out the door now not 12/31/18.
     
  6. Acad23

    Acad23 Well-Known Member

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    Bet she knows not to punt down two scores in the 4th.
     
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  7. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying that Macc should've publicly done any of those things, but behind the scenes he should've been lobbying the Johnsons to back his vision. Maybe he tried doing that and they didn't listen, okay at that point Macc should've begun a "stealth" campaign to let that out into the open. But from what we can tell, he didn't do anything to try and improve the situation, and that really is the bottom line: results. He didn't get them.

    And if you're saying that the bigger problem is the Johnsons, I agree, but they're not going anywhere.
     
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  8. FJF

    FJF 2018 MVP Joe Namath Award Winner

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    this read like a retort to the Mehta article defending Mac.
    If beat writer on beat writer crime is going to be part of the fallout from this season I’m going to have a hard time considering it a total failure
     
  9. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Then who needs that guy here anyway? I want a guy who is motivated to attack the job like a wolf attacking a plate of pork chops. I can't believe that a good coach is going to shy away from one of only thirty-two such jobs in the world because of the fan base; I don't want the guy who is that concerned with the boo birds in the stands and the internet whiners
     
  10. HomeoftheJets

    HomeoftheJets Well-Known Member

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    If the Jets are the only job available, a good coach will take it. If there are other teams who also want him, which there will be because he's a good coach, he'll take one of those instead. Good coaches aren't masochists.
     
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  11. LAJet

    LAJet Well-Known Member

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    A+. Couldn't agree more. Putting the spot light on the lack of consistent talent acquisition base by Mac has totally masked TB unsurmountable incompetence level, inability to get the best out of any of them, and bought him 2 more years
     
    #51 LAJet, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
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  12. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    There's going to be more than one coach replaced and I want the guy who has the confidence in his own capabilities to not give a crap about the things many here see as a detriment to hiring the best one. I want the guy who has the need and the drive to take the worst and make it the best in spite of those things weaker coaches might shy away from. I don't know about being masochists or not but the best coaches have never met a challenge too big.
     
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  13. Cman68

    Cman68 The Dark Admin, 2018 BEST Darksider Poster

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    Its not just the fanbase.. Its the entire picture. Loser mentality, losing culture, lousy roster, clueless ownership.. The guy you want is a coordinator on his first job as HC, not an established HC looking to go out on a high note. You want another Coordinator to learn the job as he goes, not someone that already knows what the job requires. We've had enough of that already. It may have worked for other teams like the Rams, but it hasn't worked for the Jets so far. So do you want to keep on hiring coordinators that have never been HC's to be one in the biggest media market in the NFL? There's a reason why Parcells was able to be successful so quickly and all of his successors have come up short. It may also be the reason why Parcells didn't want to work for the clueless Johnsons too. Belichek made the right choice bailing on this circus. Good luck bringing in an established HC. Perhaps backing up the Brinks truck to the tune of $150m guaranteed might get it done.

    The reality is, the Jets HC job is not a desirable one even if there's only 32. With a half ass GM doing the hiring, only someone who is looking for his first HC job will be interested barring an extreme amount of cash.
     
    #53 Cman68, Dec 14, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2018
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  14. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    Of course it's not just the fanbase, it's all of it but I focused on the fanbase you mentioned as the smallest challenge a coach would face - hell, I don't think it even rises to the level of a challenge. Regardless, the kind of coach I'm talking about would relish the opportunity to do everything needed to turn this thing on its ear and change the culture in the process.

    Where do you get all that nonsense about what I want bolded above? Certainly not from anything I've written. Do you believe there are no coaches around with experience that still have the fire-in-the-belly? I don't know today who the next Tomlin or Carroll is, but he's out there and some team is going to hire him, it might as well be the Jets.
     
  15. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Wrong! I know no such thing. I'm making total sense. Sorry you can't understand it.

    1. There are never any guarantees with drafted players. Some are supposedly "safer" that others, but there are no guarantees. Still, since it's the GM's job to fix the roster, it should be his decision which players are added to the team, not the HCs. The HC should be told, "Here are the players you have to work with. You'd better make chicken salad out of them, because if you make chicken shit, we'll be looking for our new HC." I'm saying that if Mac does have a good eye for talent, he should have stuck with that and not gone against it just to give Bowles what he wanted, if he thought Bowles was wrong. Two wrongs don't make a right. At least if Mac is adding good talent, and Bowles and his staff can't do anything with them, then Bowles and his staff can be replaced and the next HC and CS can do something with those players. If you furnish a bad HC and CS with bad players, there's no hope. No one can fix the mess. Mac has to do his job right regardless of what Bowles does or doesn't do.

    2. At least two articles recently have said that there is and has been a conflict between Mac and Bowles and that they've been lying to Woody and Chris, telling them what they want to hear, in order to keep their jobs. One article said that neither Mac nor Bowles cares whether the Jets win or lose. If the author is correct, does that sound "right" to you and like Mac should keep his job?

    No, I don't trust Bowles at all. If there is some young talent on the team that hasn't shown its worth, then that's definitely on Bowles and his CS, but we won't know for certain until we get a new CS. At that point, if there isn't any young talent on the team outside of those we already know, it will be too late in that Mac will have already made decisions in FA and the 2019 draft. I'm not willing to take that risk. If Mac stays, hires the new HC, then screws the pooch in FA and the 2019 draft and we clearly see that he was part of the problem as well, then we're screwed. We'll either have to give him and extension and keep him for 2-3 years while that HC gets a shot, otherwise no decent HC candidate would take the job with a lame duck GM, and no decent GM candidate would accept a situation where he had to accept a HC that he didn't hire; or we'll have to fire both after one year, and then no decent HC candidate will take the job knowing that he could be fired after a year. The only sane, rational and logical thing to do is to fire both Mac and Bowles and start over. Change the org chart to where the GM hires the HC and the HC reports to the GM, and the freaking Johnsons keep their damn noses out of it and keep their mouths shut.

    The bottom line is that regardless of what Bowles and his staff have or haven't done or of what the org chart is, or of what the Johnsons say or do, it's his job to fix the talent level of the roster, and he hasn't done a good enough job. The only out or excuse would be if the Johnsons ordered Mac to draft all the players that Bowles wanted.

    Evidently, a number of the players that he drafted and were cut, were not even on another team's draft board, as they weren't picked up by any other team. That suggests that Mac is part of the problem, and that it isn't just Bowles.

    3. Yes, there should be a difference in outcome. At least some talented players can overcome their circumstances (bad coaching, bad system fit) and show that they belong. We've had precious little of that, and precious few of Mac's draft picks making any kind of positive impact. Unless the Johnsons took the draft out of Mac's hands and told him whom to draft or to draft the players that Bowles wants, then things are not out of his control. If they did do that and Mac was stupid enough to put up with it, then he still deserves to get fired imo. There's no way I would ever tolerate such nonsense.

    If you've been paying attention at all, then you know that I've been one of Mac's staunchest supporters on this site, if not THE staunchest supporter, but enough is enough. Ignoring the OL, continually drafting defensive players high rather than offensive players, doing a bad job in FA, are grounds for dismissal.

    It is possible that he was in a lose-lose situation from the get-go, but no one made him take the job. I understand his wanting to get his shot and make more money, but if was in a lose-lose situation, he has no one to blame but himself, and I can't feel sorry for him. I've waited too many years and been disappointed too many times. We may finally have a FQB, and he needs to be protected, surrounded with talent and given every opportunity to succeed. I simply can't trust that Mac will do that and I'm not willing to risk wasting Sam's career and his not developing because he got seriously injured or was always running for his life because of a shitty OL.
     
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  16. Cman68

    Cman68 The Dark Admin, 2018 BEST Darksider Poster

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    Actually, I don't. Most former head coaches seem to be content being out of the limelight and off the sidelines. I would imagine the long hours aren't missed either. Again, money talks and if the Johnsons can scrape up enough of it, I'm sure they could talk Parcells into coming back to coaching. Again, the guy you describe is a young, hungry coordinator, not a veteran successful former HC.

    I think the Chiefs were 1-14 when Andy Reid took that job not long after getting fired by the Eagles? He might be the last of his kind however, if you were to hire a young coordinator, Picking one from the Andy Reid coaching tree seems to be the way to go lately.
     
  17. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    The guy I want would have some head coaching experience, not necessarily at the NFL level but would have plenty of NFL time and is probably an OC today. There's probably a list of hiring criteria a dozen lines long and there's probably nobody out there who is going to check all the boxes, regardless of who builds the list. The two names you have mentioned most recently are McCarthy and Parcells who surely had the fire I'm looking for, or at least Parcells did at one time, but neither one is going to set the world on fire today. Who is the next guy who will be compared to them? He's there, right in front of our faces - who the hell is he?
     
  18. Zach

    Zach Well-Known Member

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    That is precisely the problem.

    Let's say you shop the fresh grocery - and leave them to a 3 year old todder to cook for you. Are you expected to get anything decent? Regardless of your effort? Think about that.

    This has been my point all along - you just cannot evaluate the effectiveness of the draft when the coaching staff is fucking it all up. The problem is precisely this:

    The bad show on the field COULD be from bad draft. Or bad coaching. Or both. [Really - it is this simple a logic. Really.]

    What we know thus far is, bad coaching certainly qualifies here - and that's a bad news, as it makes the GM situation murky at best. [Look at the situation above; it does not exclude "bad GM" choice, as "bad HC" is given by default.] Trust me on this - do you think Bill Walsh's drafting could make a decent team out of Bowles-led coaching staff? That just isn't happening. I am far more inclined to believe it has more to do with bad coaching - as good coaching can STILL make something out of bad drafts. I have yet to see a good GM, fouled by a bad coaching staff, fielding a respectable team. Let me know if you find one.
     
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  19. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    Stewart, Hansen and Hackenberg are killing it on other teams.
     
  20. Zach

    Zach Well-Known Member

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    You speak like Bill Walsh never drafted a bust.
     

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