As a fan i have a completely different outlook on the 2017 season.

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by DefenseWinsChampionships, May 12, 2017.

  1. FJF

    FJF Well-Known Member

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    This has been explained a 100 times on this board but the people who bitch about it either can't understand it or don't want to because they would rather bitch about it
     
  2. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    That's absolute and utter Bull shit.

    It works with the Patriots because of Brady and Bellichek. It hasn't been working that well elsewhere. We're not "bitching to bitch." We complain because we don't like that type of hierarchy and don't think it ultimately successful most of the time. One has to have one of the top coaches in the game who can command complete control. Even then, it has flopped as much as it has succeeded. The last time I looked the Jets don't have one of the top HCs in the NFL and haven't in about 19 years and before that, it was 30 years.
     
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  3. FJF

    FJF Well-Known Member

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    you don't like the type of chain of command the top teams use? why not?
     
  4. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I am being unfair, but sports is a results oriented franchise. So far with this management team the results have been mixed at best, so please excuse me if I'm not drinking the kool-ade just yet.
     
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  5. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I don't think that all of the top teams use that chain of command. Second, The ones who do and are successful with it have one of the top HCs in the NFL. We don't.

    Third, HCs usually only think about their job security and the present. They have enough to think about just in terms of developing and preparing the talent with which they have to work. GMs have more of a big picture view of things, are better evaluators of talent usually, and oversee more aspects of the team, including contract negotiations, and negotiations with other teams. If the two are equals, then they can be working at cross purposes, which usually won't work. If the GM works for the HC it can work, if the HC is great and really knows his stuff, but those individuals are rare. Thus, I think the traditional model is the best, where the HC reports to the GM.
     
  6. Mauldinthebeast

    Mauldinthebeast Well-Known Member

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    At this point though, why do we even need high profile free agents coming here? We need to build a core of players organically before going out and getting the missing pieces. Mac looks to be doing just that. Having Williams and hopefully Adams as keystone guys is a great start. We obviously need still need pieces on offense and are still at least a season away from going heavy on free agency.
     
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  7. Mauldinthebeast

    Mauldinthebeast Well-Known Member

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    Best case scenario we win 2-4 games this season with a top 3 pick. Our young players look very promising and it was Bowles who screwed up a couple of games through bad decision making and he gets fired. Either a high profile coach becomes available like a Tomlin or Macagnan goes out and finds his guy that he can work well with. We draft our QB of the future who is our franchise QB in god knows how many years.
     
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  8. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Tanking is when a team intentionally tries to lose. That's not what the Jets are doing.

    The Jets are going with a rebuild and a youth movement, which could result in a lot of losses, but not necessarily. The end goal with the Jets in 2017 isn't to lose as many games as they can. The end goal for the Jets in 2017 is first and foremost, to determine if either Petty or Hack can be their franchise QB going forward. A close second is developing the young players on the team and determining who can help them going forward. The Jets aren't tanking. I don't believe that Mac would do that or that Bowles would either. They will still try to win as many games as they can. Many of us are just hoping that they will lose most of their games. Young players can develop, play well, and the team can find out who will help them going forward, but the team can still lose games: due to other teams having more talent; due to other teams having stability and consistent systems for years; due to other teams out playing the Jets; due to youthful mistakes by Jets players (that inevitably happen with younger players); due to Bowles poor game and clock management, Bowles inability to make adjustments, and Bowles not having the team prepared to play; due to the fact that the Jets will have a rookie OC and a new offensive system; and other factors.

    If Mac was intent on tanking this season, he wouldn't have drafted either Adams or Maye. Both are leaders. Both should have the D playing better than it has in years. If Mac wanted to tank, he could have traded down, drafted more strictly for need, and reached for some players that would take two-three years to develop.

    The Jets had little cap space with which to work this season. The Jets weren't and never were gonna be big players in FA this season due to the cap. I believe that there was only a player or two that Mac supposedly offered more money to, but we'll never know for certain unless he or that player tell us. Even so, you can't blame players for not wanting to sign with the Jets after the disaster that last season was (not to mention their recent sorry history). Bowles looked completely lost and in over his head. There were discipline problems, players dogging it on the field, no consequences for poor play, they didn't do a good job in preparing Petty to play, there were lots of injuries, etc.

    With the talent and leadership that the Jets added to the team this offseason, I think we will see a very different team on the field this year in terms of their play, or at least we should. If we don't, then we know that Bowles has to go. I think the team could go 0-16 but play tough, smart and hard in every game, and show signs that they will be a lot better in 2018. Sometimes young teams have to learn how to win. The final score isn't always indicative of how a team plays, and in spite of Parcells often-quoted "You are what your record says you are.", that isn't necessarily true. The Jets won games the last two years that they shouldn't have. They got lucky. They also lost games that they could have, and perhaps should have won. Teams can play hard, play smart, not beat themselves, but still lose because the other team is better or was better prepared.

    The latter is what many of us are hoping for. We want to see our young players develop, find out who are real players and will help us going forward. We want to see the team play smart, hard and tough, but just come up short each or most every week if neither Petty nor Hack show that they can be the answer at QB. I think that most of us would be ecstatic if Hack or Petty proves he will be a great QB for us going forward and the team wins 7-8 games. The only reason that we want the team to lose is so that if neither Hack or Petty prove they are the answer at QB, we will be in position to get one in next year's draft, because we know without that topnotch QB, we will never win consistently, and never get to, much less win, a SB.

    In terms of free agents, I think that if the team shows marked improvement this season, young players develop, and the team shows a lot of promise for the future, FAs will sign here. Things will take care of themselves. If either Bowles proves to be a good HC (doubtful) or Hack or Petty prove to be the answer at QB, then that will be even more true.
     
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  9. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Theoretically...there's nothing wrong w. Woody's power structure in alot of other businesses...You can have 2 separate departments work w. dept. heads that report to one CEO/chair of board. Woody is always consulting w. movers & shakers of corporate business..so that certainly explains where the very idea was born.The problem is your CEO/Chairman can't know zilch about the very yield you are pursuing..in this case building a long term sustained football program.

    There's nothing wrong w. what Woody really wants(at least i hope this is what he wants)to be kept in the loop,educated along the way, but have a coaching staff/front office work hand in hand to build something long lasting;with the caveat that he or "the board"have some minor input & final word.

    The easiest way to achieve this is to simply hire a team president and/or head of football operations to not only over see both coaching as well as front office/personnel/scouting but to be a laison to Woody. Additionally, you put them in front of the media to take some of the pressure off your other important figures who may not need the distraction.

    Woody should not make the same mistake the Knicks did & hire somebody solely for their name recognition who has never seemed truly enthuised to have the job. X's & O's & finer details matter alittle less w. this position. This is someone that has to be a leader w. some credibility, who knows how to build a true organization while thinking big picture & able to delegate.
     
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  10. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Can it work? Yes, but there have to be very special and unique situations and individuals for it to work. In business, one business unit doesn't usually make decisions that also affect the other unit, and when they do, there is either mutual and equal input into what happens, and/or there is someone supervising those two departments that sees the big picture.

    In the Jets situation, we have a wishy-washy dilettante as the supervisor. Even though he appears to be learning, how long has it taken, and how much longer will it take before he knows enough? In the Jets situation we have a HC who at best as been struggling to keep his head above water, and seems that he is in over his head. He could very well be coaching for his job this season. He's going to do everything he can to keep his job, including playing older vets, playing players out of position, and making in game decisions that all could be counter-productive to what Mac is trying to do if he thinks it gives the team the best chance of winning. For instance, Bowles could start McCown, and if McCown stays healthy and plays reasonably well, McCown could start the entire season and the Jets would not be any better off than they were before the season started in terms of knowing if Hac or Petty can be the answer at QB. Bowles could insist on not trading Richardson as he thinks it will give the Jets a better chance to win, and in fact, it's not impossible that Bowles could have prevented Mac's trading Richardson to the Cowboys last season for a 2nd round pick if he got Woody's ear.

    The team definitely needs a knowledgeable football man as President of Football Operations, but even if they have one, there should still be a traditional hierarchy imo, because even though the President is more knowledgeable than Woody, one could still have a situation where the HC is working against what the GM is trying to do, and the HC could still get Woody's ear and have more ultimate say in final decisions in the draft, FA, personnel, etc. over the GM. IMO this should not be. Even if there is a President, the GM should report to him, and the HC should report to the GM. IMO that is the clearest, most stable, and most logical chain of command in most situations and avoids the trap of a HC and GM being at odds and working against each other.

    An alternative situation that is second best imo, is where a team has hired a HC who demanded complete control or final say over personnel. In that situation, the GM should report to the HC, and the HC to the President of football operations. In that way, the GM and HC won't be working against each other. The problem with that scenario is that the chances are that any competent, experienced GM would not accept such a situation and would resign. In the NFL in general, GMs last longer in their jobs than HCs do. Thus, one would quite likely have less stability, and since most coaches have little experience in scouting and personnel, there is a lot of potential for things to go south, or staying that way.

    IMO the worst possible scenario is what the Jets have, where the HC and GM are equals and both report to the doofus owner, who changes his mind like he does underwear.
     
    #90 NCJetsfan, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 17, 2017
  11. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    You might want to read this article - which is admittedly a couple of years old - before you make assertions like this.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...harge-bill-belichicks-savvy-clear-in-afc-east

    In fact, most teams - and most successful ones like the Giants, Packers, Falcons, (and even the Steelers, although the Rooney's like the Maras are hands-on owner but who also are extremely knowledgeable), have a strong hierarchical structure with the HC reporting to those above him. In fact, if you read about every organization in the detailed analysis, almost all of them have a hierarchy of the GM over the HC, except some allow the HC significant, if not complete, say so on the 53 man roster. Note though that it's the GM in almost every case who has the say so on who is drafted, or signed. In some cases, like the Seahawks, where Carroll has almost equal power to Schneider, it works because they're philosophically similar. In the Patriots case, it's a unique situation, and works ONLY because of Belichick, not because of the system.

    I still stand by what I said: In the case of most successful teams, there is a strong and knowledgeable guy in charge, whether it's a knowledgeable owner(s), a Pres./VP of Football OPs, or a GM - or a HC with the power of a GM, like BB. In the Jets case they don't don't have any of those, and why they continue to flounder, and will do so until they fix this.
     
  12. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Before you bitch about what other, reasonable posters post, you might want to educate yourself:

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap10...harge-bill-belichicks-savvy-clear-in-afc-east

    Even if you disagree, you can be civil about it, unless your ego demands that you "win".
     
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  13. Br4d

    Br4d 2009 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award

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    The Seahawks hired Schneider a week after they hired Carroll in 2010.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Carroll

     
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  14. KurtTheJetsFan

    KurtTheJetsFan Well-Known Member

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    Fantastic post.This is exactly where Woody has yet to concede.He's repeatedly gone to more of a collaborative approach. While that can work, the dynamics have to be just right for a natural chain of command to fall in line. Idzik seemed very strong handed but his largely conservative tactics & idiotic move of putting Terry Bradway in charge of drafts,didn't fill the void. The jury is still out on Mac/Bowles.You have to wonder what those dynamics are really like.
     
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  15. FJF

    FJF Well-Known Member

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    thank you for posting that. my biggest take away from that article is that woody is not as meddlesome as he is made out to be.. another narrative i always felt was dramatically overblown by the reasonable posters here on tgg.
     
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  16. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    According to the article, Carroll in fact was hired as the VP of Operations in addition to being HC, and he hired Schneider. But regardless, there is a clear hierarchy, not a "co-equal" situation that the Jets have.
     
  17. AJT73

    AJT73 Active Member

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    I think we'll be better than we think. Don't get me wrong I'd be shocked if we won more than 5 games but I think the team will be more competitive than we think. I'm saying this because looking at the Mets and Yankees this year it reminds me of how much of sports is a young man's game. Maybe it's because of steroids and other not as prevelant drugs but the Yankees have built a young fast team and though the Jets are not young everywhere and still need work the fact that they are young and hungry gives me some hope that we might be better.

    The Mets are like the Tannebaum Jets. The team thinks they are a player or two away and sign or add veterans they think they could push them over the top. Instead of the younger players bring energy and excitement the older players don't replicate what they have done and the team underachieves, bickering in the locker room and other things. That is the 2016 Jets.

    I still don't think the Jets will be good but I also don't think it will be as doom and gloom as we thought. My fear is that we win a few more games than we should and not get a top 3 pick and miss out on the qb. I'm hoping not for that but fear it might happen.

    In the grand scheme I want to see the young players get experience and get better so hopefully we can compete in 2018 and 2019. Aw the life of a Jet fan. There is always next year.
     
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  18. Br4d

    Br4d 2009 Green Guy "Most Knowledgeable" Award

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    If the Jets want to lose 13+ games this year they can certainly manage the feat without too many complications.

    All they have to do is start McCown for the first quarter of the season with every young player possible given opportunities to play during that period.

    Then move to Hackenberg or Petty and keep playing the young guys.

    The NFL is a tough environment for a young player for the first half dozen games. The "who-what-where?" factor is very high and young players tend to be floating around in a fog until the game starts to slow down for them.

    Once the Jets are out to 1-5 or 0-6 the schedule gets tougher and they can basically coast to 13 or 14 losses without intentionally throwing any games in the process.

    That's how I would approach what is going to be a dreary season anyway. Give the fans something to cheer for and win the next off-season by drafting a QB in the top 3 picks of the NFL's second biggest event of the year.

    Then next year they can market the new QB hope and they've got a bunch of young players no longer wandering around in a fog. That's the beginning of something sustainable with luck. And the Jets are due for some really good luck at this point. They're the team that has never dominated the AFC East from among the 4 remaining teams.
     
  19. Andy_M

    Andy_M Active Member

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    I agree 100%. For any management hierarchy to be successful, the individual at the top of the chain has to be the most knowledgeable and experienced of the lot. When that individual isn't (and I don't think he is in this case) bad decisions are bound to bring the organization down, or at the very least, hold it back. ( year after year of mediocre teams, some making noise but never quite getting there......sound familiar?)

    Yes, I know it happens all the time in business....but those companies eventually go away or dwindle to oblivion....until they get smart and shake things up in a major way too.
     
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