Then why don't they make CC a closer? Or Burnett? They both have the tools to be an elite reliever. (Which is something that Joba doesn't even have anymore.) Because starters are more valuable than relievers. Hands down. No doubt about it. Case closed. Why do people still talk about this?
I definitely think the lack of room in the rotation contributed to this. Had we not had Vasquez or Pettite, I'm pretty sure Joba would have been the fifth guy while Hughes was the #4. The question I have now is: will this decision mark the end of the line for the "Joba the Starter" conversation? For Cashman, the answer is no, but what does the coaching staff think, that's the question.
I heard that Eppler interview on the FAN and yes, it ran contrary to the company line Cash has been towing about Jobber. So much drama about this kid. I wish we could just let him build up his innings in AAA and replace him with Melancon.
If that's what the coaches think, my guess is that Cashman was running that line out there about him being a starter in the bullpen to boost his trade value. And honestly, if what Eppler and Eiland say is true, then I hope they trade him before he becomes a "reliever." I can't imagine Cashman is very happy about that.
some people just project better to the bullpen. yeah he was supposed to have 4 ML pitches, but his fastball has lost movement and velocity, he never used his change, and his curveball wasn't anything special. his slider is dominant though, so if he can throw his good fastball again in the bullpen, we might see the same Joba that came up from the minors a couple years ago.
But he can't! that's the point! The Joba that came up from the minors threw 100 mph. Joba in the pen the other day hit 94. If he gets it up to 96-97, it's STILL not that old Joba. And if he gets his good fb back, then it's a waste to keep him in the pen. Aside from that, I disagree with you about his curve. That was always a quality pitch.
I think it's pretty safe to say 100MPH Joba is gone. I think 96+MPH Joba is still there though. Again, I think it's an issue where he can't sustain the velocity for more than a couple innings at a time. In that case, he's a better reliever, where he can throw his hardest for an inning or maybe two, mix in the slider and curve, and eventually be the "next Mo." Or trade him if we can get more value than he'll return as a Yankee. The thing you continue to focus on is whether he can throw his best fastball at all. What I keep trying to get you to look at is that it might not matter whether he can or can't. If he can throw it, but not for more than a couple innings in a row, he's a better reliever. Let's remember that Joba was a third baseman just a few short years ago. It shouldn't come as a complete shock if the guy can't be a top-tier starter. Shit happens.
I heard a bit of Cashman's interview while I was driving to the gym -- essentially he was saying Joba's velocity is what it is and it looks like it's not coming back. Also in typical Cashman fashion he skirted around the issue of Joba being relegated to the pen, opting to say instead that they'll continue to "evaluate" his progress (read: he's most likely staying in the pen).
I get that. What I've been trying to get you to see is that they go hand in hand. He's shown that stamina is not an issue. The issue is an all-around drop in velocity. That's regardless of whether he's starting or relieving. Any starter that goes to the pen will see his fastball tick up a few notches. It's not something special about Joba's stamina (or lack thereof). Hughes threw 96 out of the pen. He's throwing 91-92 as a starter. This loss of velocity we've seen will affect Joba's success as a reliever just as much as it did as a starter. I guaran-fucking-tee you that without his old fastball, he will not be the "next Mo." He will not be an elite reliever. Without the old fastball, he will not be what people remember him being from his previous stints as a reliever. I'd bet any amount of money on it. Eh. That's a red herring. It's not like the difference between what it takes to succeed as a starter vs. a reliever is tied up with experience pitching. (In fact, more major league pitchers are converted position players than career hurlers... it saved their arms.) And it's not like he never knew how to pitch. It's not like it was an experiment where the guy had raw talent that couldn't be harnessed. Something happened to him. He was awesome. Then he wasn't. And it all centers around that shoulder injury. Whether it's because of the injury or a change in mechanics due to the injury or because of a mental issue due to the injury, the issue is not that he's not "cut out" to be a starter or that he doesn't have the stamina. The issue is almost solely the drop in the velocity. Look, if this is what he is, I don't have TOO much of a problem with him in the pen (although I still think it's obvious that there's better value in a decent back end of the rotation starter than there is in a setup man or even a closer). But if this is what he is, then I don't think he's going to be what any of you expect, and I certainly don't want him replacing Mo. My best hope for the Joba situation (in terms of what's best for the Yankees) is that he either gets traded (while he still has value as a starter in the eyes of other teams) or that he can spend a year in the pen knowing that's his role, and do whatever he can to find that old fastball again, if possible. I think the former situation is more likely.
Great clip.. http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/03/yankee-to-unveil-switch-pitcher-on-tuesday.html.php
Well, then the only thing left for me to say to you regarding Joba, Cappy, is that I think you're completely wrong. *shrug*
Completely wrong? That's a cop out. Tell me what part is wrong and why you think that is. Because if you disagree that I think Joba will be an elite reliever, fine. That's a speculation on my part and anyone is welcome to disagree with it. I'd be happy to place a wager of any amount on that one, though. You name it. If it's that you don't think he'll be traded, that's fine, too. (Although that is where the Yanks are still likely to get the best value from him.) If it's any of the other stuff, though, I want to hear why. Because there is really ZERO sensible argument against anything else I posted. ALL starters would throw harder out of the pen. That's a fact. Joba DID show that he was capable of starting and maintaining stamina. That's a fact. Joba's loss of velocity coincided precisely with his injury. That's a fact. Most starters were in fact position players. That's a fact. Joba's being a third baseman had no effect on his future as a reliever vs a starter. That's as close to a fact as you can get.
Teixiera left yesterday's game after being hit by a pitch on the elbow. Hopefully that turns out to be minor.
Jeez, why are you so damned sensitive? Relax. Yes, I think Joba will be an elite reliever, and Mo's heir. So yes, I completely disagree with you there. No, I don't think he will be traded if he is "only" considered a reliever. I don't "completely" disagree with you there only because obviously if the right offer came along, no one is untradeable. Otherwise, I see no chance of Joba being traded. As for everything else, I'm not arguing with any of that, and wasn't trying to imply I was. You just love to argue. I admit I let myself get roped in far too much, but damn man, calm the hell down already. My post was only meant to be an "agree to disagree" statement. Yeah, I saw a tweet from late last night that said he had a bruise but otherwise appears to be fine.
wait a second... Why are you trying to make this personal? I'm perfectly calm and not "sensitive" about this at all. In any case, if you're that sure that I'm wrong about the success Joba will have out of the pen, why not take me up on my offer to wager on it? Yeah, I saw a tweet from late last night that said he had a bruise but otherwise appears to be fine.[/QUOTE]
Given your propensity to CAPITALIZE words to EMPHASIZE your points, it leads one to infer from your writing that you're yelling those points. If not, whatever. Plain and simple, all I'm saying is that I don't feel like arguing this with you. We just have polar opposite opinions. No big deal. As for your wager offer, I don't bet as a general rule. That's not a cop out, you can ask practically anyone on this board. I just don't bet.
5 days, just 5 days till the highlight of this thread is no longer Joba/Bullpen bullshii et al. 5 days.
I saw a contusion so shouldn't be a big deal. Getting hit in the elbow freaking hurts. I've got a bunch of Yankees on my fantasy team this year while I normally hate them this season I have a vested interest.
When I'm posting from my phone, it's a pain in the ass to italicize. I'm not yelling. I'm emphasizing single words. That's fine. But that's not what I was saying was a cop out. It's a cop out to say, "I think you're completely wrong, and that's the only thing left to say." Look, if you don't feel like discussing it, that's fine. And if you don't want to bet, that's fine, too. So you don't even have to take a risk on this one... I'll tell you flat out what's going to happen, based on what has already happened, and you can come back and call me out on it if I'm wrong. (And barring a return of his fastball, I won't be.) Joba's WHIP out of the pen in 2007 was 0.750. His K/9 was 12.8. His OPS against was .440. Joba's WHIP out of the pen in 2008 (prior to his injury) was 1.14. His K/9 was 11.4. His OPS against was .558. Joba's WHIP out of the pen in 2008 (after coming back from his injury) was 1.24. His K/9 was 11.1. His OPS against was .593. Joba's WHIP out of the pen in the 2009 postseason was 1.64. His K/9 was 9.9. His OPS against was .974. That's fucking troubling. Without his fastball back (velocity, movement, and command), the Joba we'll see out of the pen will look more like the one from last year's postseason. I know, I know, you watched those games and creamed yourself because you thought he "looked confident" and touched 96 again. Well, all the confidence in the world is not going to help him maintain results with an OPS against over .900. He'll get killed. Small sample size? You bet. Coming against some decent teams? Sure. But that's a very large discrepancy from his prior performance. So here's what I'm saying to you: there's no way in hell Joba puts up a WHIP below 1.30, an OPS against below .800, or a K-rate over 9 without getting most of his old fastball back. Putting it in terms you value more, there's no way in hell you don't yell at Joba at least half a dozen times this year for not being able to do his job. And you aren't going to want him taking over for Mo. ETA: It should also be noted that Joba was around 92-93 for his first bullpen outing last week, and yesterday was at 90-91, topping out at 93. Awesome.
