[maynardsmyhero-uk]

As much as I hate the guy ,mainly for the fact he doesn't play for the Jets and he married Giselle...but in my eyes after watching him this season and those of the numerous records he has broken ...Brady is the man I would want Qb'ing my team when the chips are down...many have said Manning , Brees etc in recent years but the big Fag in New England might just be the best there has been.

Many people say Manning is the best QB but frankly I want my guy to win when it matters most and Brady has delivered the Pats to within touching distance of a Superbowl numerous times when frankly he has seen the talent level drop around him. He is carrying the team despite a shit defense . I think its between him and Montana for greatest of all time.... even with his most potent weapon out he dissected an elite defense...

Cannot abide the Pats or their smug approach to all who dare question them but the sooner Brady retires we can at least consider the field level! As while he is on the field we simply stand no chance of getting close to the fuckers on a regular basis....simply more reason to be depressed!!

[ArmandJ]

Nothing to be depressed about. You saw how this year, with practice squad talent, AT New England, we almost beat them. Take away the Special teams touchdown by them, and we do beat them.

At home, well we had the butt fumble that pretty much destroyed any momentum or hope of coming back.

Honestly, we're one of the few teams in the NFL that consistently plays them tough. They bust out the throwback uniforms when we come into town. Give Rex some talent, and bam.

[BeastBeach]

Brady and Manning have always had a back and forth type relationship as far as who is the better of the two. During 07 Brady was looking immortal. In 09 Peyton could have sealed the deal. Going into this year Brady already had the edge due to going to the SB while Peyton was hurt, and this week just cemented it.

Being a Dolphins fan it sucks to admit it but Brady is the best QB of this generation at the very least

[nyjunc]

it was settled years, the 2 aren't close.

[CowboysFan]

Brady>Manning since 2001

[Br4dw4y5ux]

The Pats have been to 5 Super Bowls. That's how you settle all-time great arguments at QB if the other stats are close.

Neither of them has a Wilt-like dominance over the sport. Actually no QB since Dan Marino has had that.

[LeonNYJ]

When Brady retires the Pats will hopefully fade into obscurity. Unfortunately, that may not be for another 5 years. The guy hasn't gotten any worse over the years, so it's not like age has been a factor. Especially since he pretty much gets to sit in the pocket all day and rarely gets hit.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Br4dw4y5ux

The Pats have been to 5 Super Bowls. That's how you settle all-time great arguments at QB if the other stats are close.

Neither of them has a Wilt-like dominance over the sport. Actually no QB since Dan Marino has had that.

I don't think it is as simple 5 SB apps to 2. If Manning had marino like teams I'd give him the benefit of the doubt but he's had elite level talent on O(better than Brady most of his career) and good enough Ds.

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

You are helping my point. The Patriots team now is more built around Brady than it was in his SB winning runs. Any statistic will tell you that. Then add in the advanced stat of approximate value, and it's clear as day, Brady was needed less in the 3 SB runs. When the teams got to being built around Brady as the Colts were around Manning, 2 SB trips like Manning, lots of 1 and dones, lots of low scoring games where he needed defensive help.

Tom Brady's Approximate value in his 3 SB run season were: 12,13, and 16. Since those seasons he went 15,14,24,0, 16,18,21,18.

I mean I'm actually compiling their stats now because I'm bored and it's eerily similar. Like look at this:

2007 PM L 24-28 * 33 48 68.8% 402 3 2
2007 TB W 21-12* 22 33 66.7% 209 2 3
2008 PM L 17-23 * 25 42 59.5% 310 1 0
2006 TB W 24-21* 27 51 52.9% 280 2 3

These are their playoff games against SD in a 3 year span. Peyton played better, threw for better numbers, Tom Brady got the win playing worse. Yet we hail Brady for winning and yell at Peyton for losing?

2012 PM L 35-38* 28 43 65.1% 290 3 2
2011 TB W23-20* 22 36 61.1% 239 0 2

Again two games against similar BAL teams, we hail Brady for winning and crush Peyton for losing.

PM 2000 L 17-23* 17 32 53.1% 194 1 0 82.0
TB 2001 W20-17* 16 27 59.3% 145 1 0 86.2
PM 2005 L 18-21* 22 38 57.9% 290 1 0 90.9
PM 2010 L 16-17* 18 26 69.2% 225 1 0 108.7
TB 2001 W 16-13* 32 52 61.5% 312 0 1 70.4
TB 2003 W 17-14* 21 41 51.2% 201 1 0 73.3
PM 1999 L 16-19* 19 42 45.2% 227 0 0 62.3

Again, here are very similar games, PM gets the losses, TB gets the wins, yet they both played very similarly and Peyton better the majority of the time.


hard for me to look at record, for 23 and 20 games out of a 200 and 175 game career for both of them, see that their numbers are very similar and then say one is better when clearly other things such as ST/D affected the games.

Add in the fact Flacco and Sanchez have represented the AFC in championship games the last 5 years, it's really hard for me to take playoff record as a QB stat. Flacco and Sanchez were not top 5 QBs let alone top 10 QBs in the NFL those 5 years, yet lo and behold their teams went 2-1 in all those playoff runs.

Another quick eye stat is playoff games where the QB threw more INT than TD
Brady has 6 such games, Brady is 4-2 in those games
Peyton has 5 such games, Peyton is 2-3 in those games

In the last 5 playoff apperances from Peyton, he has had 0 games with more INT than TDs. Brady has had 3 such games and went 2-1 in those games. He also has a 0 TD game which he won.

For their playoff careers, Brady has throw 0 TDs twice and gone 2-0. Peyton has done it 4 times, gone 1-3.

This all just shows me there is much more to W-L than QB stats yet everyone points to playoff W-L as a QB stat.

I will have to dig deeper, but it's not a slam dunk for Brady as everyone assumes. It's really close.

Originally Posted by BeastBeach

Brady and Manning have always had a back and forth type relationship as far as who is the better of the two. During 07 Brady was looking immortal. In 09 Peyton could have sealed the deal. Going into this year Brady already had the edge due to going to the SB while Peyton was hurt, and this week just cemented it.

Being a Dolphins fan it sucks to admit it but Brady is the best QB of this generation at the very least

Just quoting what I posted in the other thread. I will dig deeper and study box scores and play by play, but the stats don't blow it away for Brady unless you consider W-L. Then it gets to that tough subject of how much credit a QB gets for W-L. If you look above, Peyton has played very similarly to Brady in a lot of the playoffs and come away with losses while Brady with wins. I will have to go through box scores and game logs to see why, but it's not shut and closed.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

Just quoting what I posted in the other thread. I will dig deeper and study box scores and play by play, but the stats don't blow it away for Brady unless you consider W-L. Then it gets to that tough subject of how much credit a QB gets for W-L. If you look above, Peyton has played very similarly to Brady in a lot of the playoffs and come away with losses while Brady with wins. I will have to go through box scores and game logs to see why, but it's not shut and closed.

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[Barcs]

Don't be surprised when the Pats lose to the very same team the Broncos did. The Patriots won't get a lucky FG miss this time around. The Ravens are destiny. Peyton > Brady.

[soxxx]

I cant defend Manning anymore. His special teams handed him 14 points, so despite the defense shitting the bed, the sole reason why they were in that game was because of the Broncos special teams,

[nyjunc]

I thik we need to end the Brady-Manning arguments and begin the Brady-Montana arguments.

They have now played 23 games each. let's look at their #s(no, that doesn't tell us everything but let's take a quick look):

Montana:
460-734, 5772 yds, 45 TDs, 21 INTs, 16-7 record

Brady:
524-833, 5629 yds, 41 TDs, 20 INTs, 17-6 record

Very similar #s, again these don't tell us evrything but it is interesting.

Brady has a better postseason record but Joe is 4-0 in SBs and never threw a single INT in a SB which is astounding.

People will immediately think jerry Rice when thinking of Montana but he won 2 SBs w/o Jerry.

Montana would likely have 5 SBs if he didnt' get knocke dout in the '90 title game.

Montana has a late game SB comeback w/ a TD drive to win it, Brady has 2 late game drives to win SBs

Montana and his O's were held to 3 pts twice in playoff losses, the lowest amount Brady led his Os to was 13 pts.


Overall I still give Montana the edge but Brady is climbing.

[Dierking]

I'm waiting patiently for Brady's Leonard Marshall moment.

[Brooklyn]

As a Jets fan I try to be as objective as possible. Yes I hate Brady but I try being fair.

Brady is an excellent QB. But Manning is a little but better.

Give Bellichick to Manning, he probably would have 5 rings until now

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by Brooklyn

As a Jets fan I try to be as objective as possible. Yes I hate Brady but I try being fair.

Brady is an excellent QB. But Manning is a little but better.

Give Bellichick to Manning, he probably would have 5 rings until now

This is my thinking. Switch Brady and Manning and that's it, you probably have Peyton at 3 and Brady at 1. Their stats are so similar it's hard to argue otherwise.

But that's the whole crux, how much credit do you give to the QB? Rodgers is playing at a magnificent level these last two years, how much blame does he got for the playoff losses and not turning it into a SB. You look at his 2012 and 2011 numbers and they blow the 2010 numbers out of the water, yet he won his SB in 2010.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

This is my thinking. Switch Brady and Manning and that's it, you probably have Peyton at 3 and Brady at 1. Their stats are so similar it's hard to argue otherwise.

But that's the whole crux, how much credit do you give to the QB? Rodgers is playing at a magnificent level these last two years, how much blame does he got for the playoff losses and not turning it into a SB. You look at his 2012 and 2011 numbers and they blow the 2010 numbers out of the water, yet he won his SB in 2010.

switch Manning and Brady and Brady has 3-4 titles for Indy and Manning has MAYBE 1 for NE.

Do people forget what BB has done w/o Brady? Brady had BB his entired career, Manning had Dungy for most of it. Only one of those coahces had success w/o Brady/Manning and that was tony Dungy.

In case people forget:

BB w/o Tom Brady
Cle 1991-1995
NE 2000, first 2 games of '01, last 15 of '08)
7+ seasons, 113 games
51-62, 45%
1 playoff app
1 playoff win
1-1 playoff record
zero tile game apps
zero SB apps
zero SB wins
2 winning seasons
5 losing seasons

BB w/ Tom Brady
NE 2001-2012(minus first 2 of '01 and last 15 of '08)
11 seasons, 175 games
136-39, 78%
10 playoff apps
17 playoff wins
17-6 playoff record
5 SB apps
3 SB wins
6 title game apps
11 winning seasons
ZERO losing seasons

[displacedfan]

Anyways here we go:


So basically my main argument is that we place too value of the QB on playoff wins and SB wins. We see similar stats and play yet one QB ends up with the win and the other one doesn't. For the quickest example, Flacco won a playoff game throwing 4/10, yet we use playoff W-L as an indicator of QB play. I don't know why so much weight is placed on W-L as it's a team stat. There are ST and D that the QB's don't even touch.

Also "choking" is going to have to be a separate discussion. If Choking is losing when favored as some put it, then all QBs are chokers which is not the point many are making.

1) 1999 vs Ten L 16-19, AFC rep in the SB: PM had a bad game. No turnovers it seems, but no throwing TDs. Rushed in a TD with 1:50 left but team didn't recover onside kick. Edge rushed 20 for 56 which is bad. Eddie George rushed 26 for 162 including a 68 yarder. For comparison, 19 points is greater than the amount of points let up by the NE defense in their 3 games to their first SB. Just saying.

2) 2000 vs MIA as 6 seed: MIA RB rushes 40 attemps for 209 yards. IND was up 14-0 at half, Mia scores 7 in the third and 10 in the 4th. IND kicks FG to take a 7 points lead in the 4th, MIA goes 14 plays for 80 yards to score a game tying TD with 34 seconds left. We are in the offense gave defense a lead and defense didn't stop it territory. Vanderjagt then was given a 49 yarder to win the game in OT, obviously misses. Mia then scores a TD to win it. Really hard to pin this Manning alone. In fact Vanderjagt a 87.5% kicker for IND in the regular season kicked 78.6% in the playoffs. For comparison, Adam ice blood Vinatieri kicks 82.6% in regular season and 82.8% in the playoffs. Also interesting fact, Vinatieri has two 5/5 FG games, one for Manning and one for Brady. Ask yourself if you think Adam misses a GW FG kick.

3) 2002 vs NYJ, SMACKDOWN! Jets take a 7-0 lead. Manning goes down field, Vanderjagt misses field goal (surprise surprise) leaving IND down 7-0 still. Jets turn good field position into 3 points, now up 10-0. On kickoff, IND fumbles and Jets recover and score TD now up 17-0. Colts have two drives stall, one via run one via pass. Jets go up 24-0 at halftime. Jets return opening kickoff 70 yards and tack on 3 more to make it 27-0. Peyton’s first pick comes down 34-0 in the 4th quarter. Definitely blame him for now jump starting the offense, but hard to blame loss squarely on him again.

4) 2005 vs PITT, Pitt takes opening kickoff, march down field and score 7. NOW REMEMBER, Junc blames the Jets defense for the AFC champ loss at Pitt because partly the D let PITT set a trend and force their will on the game. Bet that doesn’t apply to this game Junc? Anyways Manning has 0 turnovers this game, leads his team to 2 TDs in the 4th and gives Vanderjagt a 48 yarder (who was perfect at home that year) to tie the game and guess what, Vandy misses. See a trend here? Anyways any doubt Adam makes this? In fact we can look to our bouncing of the Colts in 2010 where Adam drills a 50 yarder than could have been good from 60.

5) 2007 vs SD, lose to SD while putting up better more points and better stats than Brady who won the next game against SD. Manning didn’t play well, but he played okay. He also gave IND a lead in the 4th but then BILLY VOLEK drove 78 yards in 8 plays for a game winning TD. BILLY VOLEK the backup QB. The Pats got broken Rivers the next game and barely beat them. They beat them because the Chargers got the ball in the RZ to the 5,6,8 yard line and Nate Kaeding had to kick FGs instead of TDs being scored. So as we see some more non QB related play making the difference in the two games. The IND D on the other hand let up TDs of 56, 30 yards out against SD the game before. We see how D influences the game here.

6) 2008 vs SD, Another example of IND getting a 3 point lead late, then Sproles returning the punt 26 yards effectively putting SD in FG tying range. Then Rivers hits back to back passes for 11 yards each and then Sproles tacked on 8 more and boom SD ties the game after yet again IND has a lead, game goes to OT. IN OT IND finally has SD offensve stopped at the 40 on 3rd and 8 but nope, defensive holding giving SD a first down at the 35. Then a 15 yard penalty, putting SD at the 20 yard line from the 40 yard line without a single play. SD wins game in OT, Peyton never touches the ball. So that means this is like the NE game for us this year. We have a 3 points lead, opposing QB marches down gets 3 to tie game. Gets ball first in OT, gets 3 again. Again, this is a game Junc blamed on our D, will he blame the IND D for doing the same exact thing?

7) 2010 vs NYJ, we all know this. Adam hits a 50 yarder to give IND a 2 point lead. We take the opening kickoff to the 40. Hit a big pass here and there with a dumb TO from IND and we win the game with Peyton off the field. Again, IND has a late lead, defense doesn’t hold it.

So those are all of Manning’s one and dones. You really can’t blame any one of them on him sucking. The one you could was the NYJ the first time but that seemed more overall failure than just Manning throwing the game away. If you also look in all except the TEN and NYJ game, IND gave their ST a shot to tie/win the game or their defense a lead and everytime the defense/ST failed.

Now if you were to go through Brady’s SB runs you would see his wins come when the chances IND had, his defense or ST converted. The times Brady lost, the defense couldn’t provide the stop like against us or the NYG twice. It’s really hard to pin W/L on the QB when looking at this, if you switched Vanderjagy and AV, the two QBs could have completely different histories.

Now if you go through some of Brady's biggest wins, he gave the defense a lead, and they held on to it (NE vs SD 24-21, 2 TD 3 INT) or the defense held strong after turnovers (NE vs SD 21-12, RZ stops for NE D at the 5,7,8 yard line). When the NE defense sets up the offense even better, (STL SB, set up 17 of the 20 points scored by NE) Vinateiri then drills a 40+ yarder in a dome, something Vandy has shown to have problems with.

This is my main objection to W-L being a QB stat. I just pointed out some losses for Peyton where the D/ST had chances to tie/win and they didn't. Then I can point to games where NE made this (look at NE D vs BAL last year and DEN D vs BAL this year. One strips the GW TD and BAL misses game tying FG, other gives up Hail Mary play) happen and neither QB is involved in any of it. Going through the amount of clutch makes Vinateiri has and clutch misses Vandy has, it's really hard for me to point at W-L as a QB stat.

People say "don't just look at the stats" but then they want to just look at "w-l" which isn't even a QB stat!

Basically, someone please explain to me why W-L is a QB stat? Why do we look at it that way? If we are going to explain actual QB related stats, why is W-L taken at face value when it's a team stat? Do we really give Flacco credit for his 4/10 win against NE and then discredit him for a great game last year played against NE? We discredit Rodgers performance 2 days ago because his defense couldn't stop a nose bleed, but hype up his NFC chmaionsup win where he threw 0 TDs, 2 picks and played the 3rd string QB of Chicago?

[JarOfMayo51]

Originally Posted by LeonNYJ

Especially since he pretty much gets to sit in the pocket all day and rarely gets hit.

Did you even watch the Texans game? Brady was hammered all game long, and hes been hammered a lot towards the end of this year as well.

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by JarOfMayo51

Did you even watch the Texans game? Brady was hammered all game long, and hes been hammered a lot towards the end of this year as well.

He has taken some rough shots. Even though I make fun of him for it, when there is fumble or INT he does a good job of affecting the play but not getting hit by a cheap shot. Very good job taking care of his body.

Also I started reading some stuff after the compiling the above, looks like I missed on some key stats about Manning:
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Nate Dunlevy ‏@NateDunlevy
According to @CaptainComeback Manning's team has lost 4 playoff games when they had the lead with :40 or less to play. Just wow.

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Interesting reads. I mean it's what I'm saying except better writing, more knowledge, and more detail. I should have Googled before I did any of this.