[alleycat9]

he actually has the ball facing in completely the wrong direction when he cocks his arm. its actually quite amazing and i have to wonder how in the hell did that ever end up happening?

it makes me want to jump up and smack his pop warner and high school football coaches as thats something that you learn at 8 years old. cock it to your ear and fire with a short motion..... its just beyond me as its a completely un-natural position and is uncomfortable to even do.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by alleycat9

he actually has the ball facing in completely the wrong direction when he cocks his arm. its actually quite amazing and i have to wonder how in the hell did that ever end up happening?

it makes me want to jump up and smack his pop warner and high school football coaches as thats something that you learn at 8 years old. cock it to your ear and fire with a short motion..... its just beyond me as its a completely un-natural position and is uncomfortable to even do.

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Saw this where one analyst actually walked through one of his throws in the throwing motion. Thought it was a pretty good assessment on why he has battled with inconsistency when throwing the ball.

Someone might defend it and say it WAS the game winning throw against Pittsburgh. Okay. What is the old saying? A blind squirrel finds a nit once in a while. Yeah, it worked that time, but I think this is still a major reason why he has trouble hitting recievers that aren't really really wide open. He'd not going to throw tight passes into small windows like we see Rodgers and most of the top QBs do. 2 years in the league, and 16 starts into his career, countless hours in the offseason working on improvment, a few sessions with a "QB Guru"... and he's still throwing like that.

I even experimented trying to throw a football like what was shown in the video, I don't even know how he does it by pulling it behind his head and all the way back between his shoulder blades like that.

[Clovis]

Jim Furyk will never be a good golfer either, have you seen that guys terrible swing? I tell you, he wont win a thing

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Clovis

Jim Furyk will never be a good golfer either, have you seen that guys terrible swing? I tell you, he wont win a thing

You see him winning any Superbowls with this?

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[Clovis]

I see a lot of perfect throwing motions not winning superbowls too...point is, its what he does, not saying you have to like it....but his skill set of running and being big is certainly a necessity of how he throws the ball. He can generate the the space and time...unfortunately it has to be in space out of the pocket. And unlike Carolina and Washington, who's coaches allow their QBs to run to the edge, most NFL coaches want the cookie cutter pocket passer We all know for better or worse, Tim is not that.

[Bannon]

Originally Posted by alleycat9

he actually has the ball facing in completely the wrong direction when he cocks his arm. its actually quite amazing and i have to wonder how in the hell did that ever end up happening?

it makes me want to jump up and smack his pop warner and high school football coaches as thats something that you learn at 8 years old. cock it to your ear and fire with a short motion..... its just beyond me as its a completely un-natural position and is uncomfortable to even do.

That's actually not right -- the nose of the ball can face completely backwards in a correct throwing motion. There are three basic types of throwers. I forget the name of that one (it might be slinger), but that's one of the recognized styles.

But to the larger point -- it is precisely because he has mechanics issues that I believe Tebow has a good shot at improving. I would worry about someone who has great mechanics, but still gets rattled back there, still makes bad decisions, and still throws the ball inaccurately (Brady Quinn comes to mind -- look like Tarzan, play like Jane).

Tebow's getting it done with substandard mechanics. As he improves over his career, so will he. He has the arm -- his velocity is NFL caliber. That can't be said for everyone, and it's very difficult to improve velocity with any signficance.

[JFjets]

I'm not going to take the time to post them for you because I know you won't care, but there are pictures out there of multiple other NFL QB's - good ones - doing exactly the same thing with the ball when winding up. Notably Drew Brees, for one.

Just sayin'.

[Bannon]

Yeah, here's a video I've seen before. It is "slinger." The three types are puncher, launcher, slinger. Skip to about 2:00 in this video.

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I still believe it's Tebow's footwork more than anything.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Clovis

I see a lot of perfect throwing motions not winning superbowls too...point is, its what he does, not saying you have to like it....but his skill set of running and being big is certainly a necessity of how he throws the ball. He can generate the the space and time...unfortunately it has to be in space out of the pocket. And unlike Carolina and Washington, who's coaches allow their QBs to run to the edge, most NFL coaches want the cookie cutter pocket passer We all know for better or worse, Tim is not that.

Yeah, but Tebow when he started, he was dead last in all major passing categories, and accuracy issues when throwing are the biggest knocks on him. It isn't just the motion with the arm either as his footwork is often pretty bad too. He was the only starting QB to finish under 50% last year as even Blaine Gabber finished above that.

Sooner or later, you're gonna have to get out of denial that his throwing motion is indeed a major reason he has trouble completing passes. Blaming others (receivers and playcalling) or anecdotal stories about people winning with awkward golf swings isn't going to do him any favors. Coaches and GMs are seeing that he isn't completing passes. Analysts all over the place are seeing the same thing. It got to the point last year where John Fox was quoted after the Detroit game of saying, "enough of this crap" and steered away from passing nearly as much and sticking mostly with the run for better or worse. He's not completing passes. Time to be honest about why.

You want someone to take a chance on him and want to see him succeed, right? Here's a major area for improvment where he can make that happen. Instead of whining about people not taking a chance on him, or blaming everyone but... maybe someone should start thinking that Tebow is the one that needs to fix things. If not, his career is as good as done, cuz the NFL wants passers playing QB, not RBs playing as QBs. Newton and RGIII may be runners too, but they can pass.

[Clovis]

I haven't blamed anyone in my post, just saying he is what he is. There are positives, for whatever reason, he is very accurate with that delivery with deep passes, he is less accurate on short throws with it. Like Bannon stated earlier, i believe if he can continue to to improve his foot work, he will become more accurate. I doubt highly he will ever be a west coast offense type qb.

Not sure if ypa is a major passing category, but pretty sure he is high up on that list.

[alleycat9]

Originally Posted by Bannon

Yeah, here's a video I've seen before. It is "slinger." The three types are puncher, launcher, slinger. Skip to about 2:00 in this video.



I still believe it's Tebow's footwork more than anything.

i didnt post this to discuss whether tim tebow is or will be or anything like that it just amazes me that they let him hold the ball that way.

thanks for the video. i really disagree with the "fundamentals" this guy is teaching.. they may have been ok in the 70s but not today. even his follow through is telling kids to point there fingers which is not what you want in a follow through.

that throwing motion makes it much more difficult to make the strange or odd throws. i can remember payton manning talking a few years ago about the amount of time he spends making non conventional throws. leaning one way or another, in duress one way or another, falling back all of the types of throws you need to make in a game. i just cant see you being able to do that repetitively and consistently with that type of throwing motion.

i am very surprised that anyone would teach that slinger method unless you have a kid who just has a terribly weak arm and in that case you make him a tight end

i would have to imagine if you cocked the ball to your ear and threw from there 1000 times you could change the motion but its one of those things that is just so hard to change once you go past a certain level.

[Bannon]

Originally Posted by alleycat9

i am very surprised that anyone would teach that slinger method unless you have a kid who just has a terribly weak arm and in that case you make him a tight end

It's not really the part you teach -- the one thing the player brings to the table naturally is just how he throws. Maybe if you started from an embryo, who knows. But players naturally throw in those three ways and it's hard to change that aspect.

My larger point is that if you pay attention, a lot of NFL quarterbacks point the nose of the football backwards during the throw. I promise, you'd be surprised.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Clovis

I haven't blamed anyone in my post, just saying he is what he is. There are positives, for whatever reason, he is very accurate with that delivery with deep passes, he is less accurate on short throws with it. Like Bannon stated earlier, i believe if he can continue to to improve his foot work, he will become more accurate. I doubt highly he will ever be a west coast offense type qb.

Not sure if ypa is a major passing category, but pretty sure he is high up on that list.

Yeah, he is a bit higher on long passing averages, but you can't live off of that your whole career. For long passes, all you have to to is lob it downfield and get it in the vacinity of the receiver. The receiver adjusts and makes the play on it.

For the shorter mid range passes between 5 and 12, it requires great awareness of what is going on. Reading defenses. (Something that is ALSO a knock on Tebow.) You really have to be on the spot with those throws. Unfortunately he really struggled there and that is where most of the game is played with passing. Yards after the catch is a big deal there and that is severely limited when receivers have to break stride to either catch the ball at their shoelaces, or twist to catch balls thrown behind them, or reach up for the ball thrown a bit high. That's what gets receivers killed out there.

So while he did have a higher percentage of long throws, he was also among the league leaders of percentage of passes that went for negative yards. So most were either very long passes or very short behind the scrimmage dump offs. Most of the middle game was eliminated, and THAT severely limits what an offense can do when trying to pick apart a defense. You can't just live on the long ball all day, and throwing a bunch of bubble screens doesn't work particularly well when teams already have their defense stacking the box with 8 or 9 guys in the area limiting his running.

This is what coaches and GMs want in a passer, and if you can't, well... it hasn't gone unnoticed, and is probably why he seems to be getting treated the way he has been treated with this league. Better fix that or his career will be spent on the bench or being utilized more like what he has with the jets.

Nope... his passing is killing his career. His long pass percentage is higher because most in the league are throwing far more in the other zones. Even if I believed he was better at that than most, that alone isn't going to save him. I think even Tebow would admit he has a major problem passing. It's his followers who insist the problem is elsewhere and he is fine the way he is.

[phaytal]

Originally Posted by JFjets

I'm not going to take the time to post them for you because I know you won't care, but there are pictures out there of multiple other NFL QB's - good ones - doing exactly the same thing with the ball when winding up. Notably Drew Brees, for one.

Just sayin'.

There is exactly zero resemblance between Tebow's and Brees' throwing motions. Brees is more accurate than Olympic archers. Tebow cant hit a 6 yard out:

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[Bannon]

[Bannon]

[Concerned_Citizen]

Okay, assuming these area all whacky throwing motions and it doesn't actually matter.... then why does Tebow struggle to complete passes?

...and don't tell mit it is on the receivers. People blamed Thomas and Decker, but now they are among the league leaders with a QB that can actually hit them.

I really hope you say it is because of Manning, because not only is that the truth, but that would be forcing you to admit the QB is the difference.

This is why Tebow is on the bench. if you want to show pics of others throwing, then fine, but it doesn't get more awkward than it is in the video I posted above. So if that isn't the issue, what is it then?

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by phaytal

There is exactly zero resemblance between Tebow's and Brees' throwing motions. Brees is more accurate than Olympic archers. Tebow cant hit a 6 yard out:

I did see him hit a cheerleader though on a 10 yarder.

[JFjets]

Originally Posted by Bannon

Zing.

Thank you. Now comes the part where the haters claim that you are saying Tebow is as accomplished a thrower as every QB whose picture you posted, when in fact neither you, nor I, said anything of the sort. Oh wait, phaytal already did....

So predictable.

[JFjets]

Okay, assuming these area all whacky throwing motions and it doesn't actually matter.... then why does Tebow struggle to complete passes?

Easy. He's not using his natural throwing motion, the one that made him one of the elite QB's in Florida high school football history, and the one that made him one of the most elite passing QB's in NCAA history. All the so-called "experts" said he just had to change his throwing motion or he could never be successful in the NFL. So he has tried to, and since it is so difficult to change something that is so natural (and so critical to one's craft, in this instance), he has struggled, with his brain trying to do his "new" motion and his muscles trying to do his "old/natural" motion, resulting in a frankenstein mish-mash throwing motion that has sometimes been very inaccurate. Some guy named Joe Montana said he never should have tried to change his throwing motion, he should have stuck with the motion he knew and had success with in college. If I was Tebow's coach right now, I'd tell him to forget everything he tried to re-learn about throwing and just go back to how he used to sling it. It's still in his muscle memory. Who cares how it looks as long as the ball gets to the target. Asking a successful QB to change his motion, in a short period of time, with success, is like asking Snoop Dog to sing Opera with success, in a short period of time. Ain't going to happen.

...and don't tell mit it is on the receivers. People blamed Thomas and Decker, but now they are among the league leaders with a QB that can actually hit them.

I haven't seen ay definitive stats, but I have watched nearly every Broncos game this year and Decker and Thomas have still dropped some balls. And McGahee had a horrendous drop last week.

By the way, what is Sanchez' excuse for low accuracy? He has a pretty nice "motion". You've already ruled out the possibility of receivers sharing any large part in the blame, so what's his problem?