[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by devilonthetownhallroof

Only one was against the Yankees. The others were Baltimore, Minnesota, and Chicago. None of those offenses come close to what Pedro faced. Look at ERA+, that tells a different story. Pedro is the all time leader at 166, Koufax only 131. Still good, but not even close to Pedro.

It's not like Pedro's #s were close to Koufax, he had an era 3 points higher.

Pedro in his prime blows Clemens away.

pedro '97-'00 was as good as any pitcher that's ever played the game but roger has done it better for a longer period of time.

[ShadeTree#55]

Steroids.....wake up.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by ButtleMan

Right about that.

 Year Round Tm  Opp WLser  G GS  ERA    W-L  SV CG SHO  IP   H   ER  BB  SO
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
 1959 WS    LAD CHW   W    2  1   1.00  0-1   0  0   0   9.0   5   1   1   7
 1963 WS    LAD NYY   W    2  2   1.50  2-0   0  2   0  18.0  12   3   3  23
 1965 WS    LAD MIN   W    3  3   0.38  2-1   0  2   2  24.0  13   1   5  29
 1966 WS    LAD BAL   L    1  1   1.50  0-1   0  0   0   6.0   6   1   2   2
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+
  4 World Series     3-1   8  7   0.95  4-3   0  4   2  57.0  36   6  11  61
+------------------+-----+--+--+------+-----+--+--+---+-----+---+---+---+---+

That is just sick. He loses 3 WS games but still has a .95 ERA.
2-1 record against the Twins with a .38 ERA. Talk about no offensive help.

More impressive is pitching shutouts in Games 5 and 7 to win the WS for LA. In 3 games pitched he pitched 24 innings and gave up 1 run w/ 29 K's. It doesn't get better than that.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Yes, it's ridiculous trying to compare pitchers of different eras based on their ERA. Koufax had some nice years but he was nowhere near as dominant as Pedro was.

Koufax pitched in Dodger Stadium and posted a 3 seasons with an ERA under 2, yet the league average those years was just over 3. While Pedro posted an amazing ERA of 1.74 in Boston, while the league average was 5.

In addition to just ERA Pedro averages 2.3 walks and 10.3 strikeouts per 9 innings with a WHIP just a hair over 1, while Koufax averaged 3.2 walks and 9.3 strikeouts per 9, with a WHIP of 1.1

The one advantage Koufax has over Pedro is the fact that pitchers threw such an obscene amount of innings a year back then, and Koufax's numbers at 300+ innings a year top the contributions of Pedro's at 200+ innings a year. Of course the game has changed so much it's hard to fault Pedro for this.

[Italian Seafood]

Originally Posted by ShadeTree#55

Steroids.....wake up.

You raise a good point. Everyone focuses on hitters using steroids and their records, etc, nobody talks about the pitchers. Clemens is one guy I'd look at. As much as I hate to say it, I've always been suspicious of my boy Eric Gagne too. He bulked up, had a couple of superhuman seasons and now he keeps hurting his arm.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Italian Seafood

You raise a good point. Everyone focuses on hitters using steroids and their records, etc, nobody talks about the pitchers. Clemens is one guy I'd look at. As much as I hate to say it, I've always been suspicious of my boy Eric Gagne too. He bulked up, had a couple of superhuman seasons and now he keeps hurting his arm.

Steroids are Shade's excuse for every successful non-Met player and he acts as if no Met has ever taken steroids thouigh it appears alot of their minor leaguers have.

[ShadeTree#55]

As opposed to known major league cheaters Balco twins Sheff and Giambalco.

[Italian Seafood]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Steroids are Shade's excuse for every successful non-Met player and he acts as if no Met has ever taken steroids thouigh it appears alot of their minor leaguers have.

Perhaps, but he does raise a good point.

[ShadeTree#55]

Canseco's book seems to have been pretty spot on. He is the one who named Rocket.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Italian Seafood

Perhaps, but he does raise a good point.

Maybe but there's no evidence Clemens usee although I think it'sossible. it's not like looking at Bonds from the mid-late 90s to the '00s and seeing a man grow by twice the size and his #s go up dramatically. Clemens has always beeen consistent and if he had been using since the 80s then he'd probably be dead by now.

[ShadeTree#55]

What about his last 3 years in Boston? He consistently sucked.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by ShadeTree#55

What about his last 3 years in Boston? He consistently sucked.

He sucked w/ the Yanks the 1st 2 years until the '00 postseason. Did he stop using then start agin in the '00 postseason?

[Cakes]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Interesting poll from RESPN from their baseball "experts". here are the results:

POLL RESULTS
• Here are the results of ESPN.com's poll, asking 32 of ESPN's baseball experts (named below) to list the top 10 greatest living pitchers. Points were awarded on a 1-10 scale (10 for a first-place vote down to a 1 for a 10th-place vote).
NO. PITCHER PTS.
1 Roger Clemens 278
2 Tom Seaver 196
3 Sandy Koufax 192
4 Bob Gibson 186
5 Greg Maddux 177
6 Bob Feller 126
7 Randy Johnson 123
8 Pedro Martinez 119
9 Steve Carlton 101
10 Juan Marichal 71
Others receiving votes: Nolan Ryan 67, Mariano Rivera 41, Whitey Ford 35, Jim Palmer 33, Fergie Jenkins 6, Dennis Eckersley 6, Robin Roberts 2, Goose Gossage 2 Dave Stewart 2.
THE VOTERS
Dave Barnett, Jim Callis, Jim Caple, Dave Campbell, Jerry Crasnick, Orestes Destrade, Peter Gammons, Gary Gillette, Pedro Gomez, Orel Hershiser, Eric Karabell, Eric Karros, Bob Klapisch, Tim Kurkjian, Michael Knisley, Buck Martinez, Sean McAdam, Sean McDonough, Jon Miller, Rob Neyer, Steve Phillips, Karl Ravech, Phil Rogers, Enrique Rojas, David Schoenfield, Alan Schwarz, Jon Sciambi, John Shea, Dan Shulman, Jayson Stark, Rick Sutcliffe, Gary Thorne


Link to full article(It's about Clemens):

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

I think they voted the top ten correctly, but maybe have the order wrong a bit. Ryan definitely doesn't belong in the top ten. I guess Gaylord Perry and Jim Bunning dropped dead? How were they overlooked and Stewart got two votes?

My top five are
Seaver, Clemens, Gibson, Martinez, and Koufax.

[Italian Seafood]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

He sucked w/ the Yanks the 1st 2 years until the '00 postseason. Did he stop using then start agin in the '00 postseason?

We call this the Mad Dog Defense. I don't think taking steroids guarantees you'll never have a bad run, but it does enhance your overall performance. Maybe he did get back on the juice for the '00 post-season and that's why he snapped and threw a broken bat at Piazza, since he could never get him out any other way.

He could have started taking them as he got up in years and his career was declining. I don't think Bonds started in the 80s either, both were good players before and magically got better at an age when most human beings wear down. That leads to legitimate suspicion, is all I'm saying. Same as Gagne, who is one of my all-time favorites. Just trying to be fair.

[nyjunc]

We call this the Mad Dog Defense. I don't think taking steroids guarantees you'll never have a bad run, but it does enhance your overall performance. Maybe he did get back on the juice for the '00 post-season and that's why he snapped and threw a broken bat at Piazza, since he could never get him out any other way.

I'm not saying he didn't take them but according to Sahde he stunk his last 3 years in Bsoton and then he was great 2 years in Toronto then stunk his 1st 2 reg seasons w/ the Yanks. So he stopped after he was traded to the Yanks until the postseason of '00? it doesn't make sense.

That leads to legitimate suspicion, is all I'm saying. Same as Gagne, who is one of my all-time favorites. Just trying to be fair

gagne was great then gone in a flash, Clemens has been great for decades.

[ShadeTree#55]

Wow so the "greatest" pitcher had 5 crappy seasons?
Pedro has never ever had a crappy season.

[GreenHornet]

Here's a pitcher that brings back memories

[ButtleMan]

Originally Posted by Royal Tee

Hands Down....

RT beat you to it Hornet.

[Royal Tee]

...................

Originally Posted by ButtleMan

RT beat you to it Hornet.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by ShadeTree#55

Wow so the "greatest" pitcher had 5 crappy seasons?
Pedro has never ever had a crappy season.

and Pedro has never had the amount of succesful seasons Clemens has had and Roger has 7 CY's while Pedro has only 3.