[VanderbiltJets]

Originally Posted by Barry the Baptist

If it turns out he doesn't or didn't have mental health issues he is a scumbag and a coward.

Now that we have more information one can make a more informed judgement of the situation.

Substance abuse (and dependence), anger issues, and, most importantly, the concussions. They're contributing factors, but, as with everyone else that commits murder, the ultimate responsibility lies with him. There's no doubt that people along the line failed him, but that's not the point because he has taken someone else's life.

I'm still bothered, however, with the diminutive assumption that because he is capable of committing a heinous act (in this case murder, domestic violence, etc.) that we should all rush to judge him and label him a bad person especially in this case given that he was not in a right state of mind under the influence, concussed, and (likely) dealing with CTE. Myself, though, I take it a step further. Many individuals for whatever reason are unwilling to accept that people (to put it bluntly) are capable of committing unspeakable acts without actually being a "bad person"; yet, for whatever reason, we seek to define anyone who has committed murder, become ensnared by addiction, or any other arbitrary label that we see fit.

Am I saying that all murderers are good people? No. But I am telling you that, to simplify it, at least one "murderer" since the beginning of time was a good person, disproving the illogical notion that murderer="bad person". My clarification is obviously an oversimplification but it's meant to convey a point: that we label others as "scum" in order to convince ourselves that we are not capable of doing the same things when really all humans are.

Want psychological precedence? Read about Germans who killed innocents during the Holocaust "merely because they were following orders" and the Stanford Prison Experiment.

[VanderbiltJets]

Originally Posted by JetBlue

whether someone is insane is not dictated by whether they commit heinous acts. sociopaths can be sane, and commit far more brutal acts of violence than this.

Originally Posted by Barcs

sociopath

noun, Psychiatry.
a person with a psychopathic personality whose behavior is antisocial, often criminal, and who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience.

Nah, sociopaths aren't insane, just psychopathic. The guy tried to post it as if him shooting her 9 times somehow proved he was not insane. So, if he only shot her once or twice he'd be less sane, or what? It's just not a very compelling argument, that's all. My point was that it's not unreasonable to question the sanity of somebody who pulls an act like this. Some people were arguing that it's being too sympathetic to even mention.

Originally Posted by JetBlue

that's not true at all, unless you are making up your own fantasy definition of insanity. your own post would possibly be indicative of insanity -- an inability to distinguish fantasy (your definition of sociopath) and reality (the actual definition of sociopath). the issue would be whether it is caused by mental illness or not.

Legal definition of insanity: 1) mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

sociopathic behavior is anti-social behavior, not a mental illness. Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) is described by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, fourth edition (DSM-IV-TR), as an Axis II personality disorder characterized by "...a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others that begins in childhood or early adolescence and continues into adulthood."

that isn't particularly caused by mental illness and an inability to tell fantasy from reality, or an uncontrollable impulse behavior. anti-social behavior can be deliberate and planned, hence why not all acts of violence are rationalized as acts of insanity.

1) You're calling for a legal definition of insanity but you're ignoring the provided definition of sociopathy without acknowledgement (I must assume you didn't see it). You're failing to explain the fact that a legal definition of mental insanity is only applicable in the court of law as precedence for pleading not guilty due to mental insanity. Mental insanity and mental illness are two completely different things. Thunder and lightning.
2) DSM is a handbook for psychiatrists to define and diagnose specific mental illnesses. ASPD isn't "caused by mental illness" because it by itself is a personality disorder and a mental illness.
3) If your argument were true then how can a serial killer argue mental insanity?

[AbdulSalam]

Originally Posted by VanderbiltJets

1) You're calling for a legal definition of insanity but you're ignoring the provided definition of sociopathy without acknowledgement (I must assume you didn't see it).
2) DSM is a handbook for psychiatrists to define and diagnose specific mental illnesses. ASPD isn't "caused by mental illness" because it by itself is a personality disorder and a mental illness.

Yes Dr. freud, we know what the dsm is. we also know that jovan had no such diagnoses and we know that he he had an argument, shot his baby momma 9 times and fled the scene of that crime in his bentley. Scumbag behavior and whether or not he had "mental issues" or was drunk at the time that doesn't make him any less of a scumbag.

[VanderbiltJets]

Originally Posted by AbdulSalam

Yes Dr. freud, we know what the dsm is. we also know that jovan had no such diagnoses and we know that he he had an argument, shot his baby momma 9 times and fled the scene of that crime in his bentley. Scumbag behavior and whether or not he had "mental issues" or was drunk at the time that doesn't make him any less of a scumbag.

1) If everyone here knew what it was then why was it incorrectly cited to prove that something wasn't a mental illness?
2) Did I at any point say that Jovan had any such diagnosis? Why are you arguing with yourself?
3) Why are you calling his girlfriend his "baby momma"? That's xenophobic and borderline racist. Respect the dead. R.I.P. Kasandra Perkins
4) Read the post above the one you quoted before you just revert to dismissive buzzwords.

[JetBlue]

Originally Posted by VanderbiltJets

1) You're calling for a legal definition of insanity but you're ignoring the provided definition of sociopathy without acknowledgement (I must assume you didn't see it). You're failing to explain the fact that a legal definition of mental insanity is only applicable in the court of law as precedence for pleading not guilty due to mental insanity. Mental insanity and mental illness are two completely different things. Thunder and lightning.
2) DSM is a handbook for psychiatrists to define and diagnose specific mental illnesses. ASPD isn't "caused by mental illness" because it by itself is a personality disorder and a mental illness.
3) If your argument were true then how can a serial killer argue mental insanity?

no, I am talking about the legal and medical definition, of which without it every behavior could be argued as a repercussion of mental illness.

a serial killer can argue anything they want, it is a matter of whether they actually suffer from it.

By your argument, all acts of violence or anti-social behavior would be because of mental illness.

[VanderbiltJets]

Originally Posted by JetBlue

no, I am talking about the legal and medical definition, of which without it every behavior could be argued as a repercussion of mental illness.

a serial killer can argue anything they want, it is a matter of whether they actually suffer from it.

By your argument, all acts of violence or anti-social behavior would be because of mental illness.

1) Whatever you argued supported the notion that ASPD (just like all other personality disorders) is a form of mental illness. Also, there's no "medical" definition of insanity as one would think:

To be clear, insanity is a legal term pertaining to a defendant's ability to determine right from wrong when a crime is committed. Here's the first sentence of law.com's lengthy definition:

Insanity. n. mental illness of such a severe nature that a person cannot distinguish fantasy from reality, cannot conduct her/his affairs due to psychosis, or is subject to uncontrollable impulsive behavior.

Insanity is a concept discussed in court to help distinguish guilt from innocence. It's informed by mental health professionals, but the term today is primarily legal, not psychological. There's no "insane" diagnosis listed in the DSM.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.. You're wrong.

2) That's why there are doctors to diagnose suspected serial killers not guilty by reason of mental insanity before trial. But you aren't definitionally a serial killer unless you have ASPD or something very similar combined w/ PTSD.
3) I did not argue that, nor does my logic fit that. Explain yourself or you're incorrect. I said that because serial killers suffer from ASPD and, because you argued that ASPD is not a mental illness, one could conclude using your logic that serial killers aren't mentally ill. That's just downright idiotic.

[JetBlue]

Originally Posted by VanderbiltJets

3) I did not argue that, nor does my logic fit that. Explain yourself or you're incorrect. I said that because serial killers suffer from ASPD and, because you argued that ASPD is not a mental illness, one could conclude using your logic that serial killers aren't mentally ill. That's just downright idiotic.

I am talking about insanity specifically, not mental illness.

[AbdulSalam]

Interesting report on belcher from a guy who remembered him as a bully and a jerk from back in the day in west bab - not a pretty picture and this sounds legit.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Then there is this report of prior altercations at UMaine.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

[Barcs]

Originally Posted by AbdulSalam

barcs, please stop pretending that you know anything about jovan's mental health of lack thereof and the legal definition of sanity he's just another dirtbag murderer/domestic abuser/loser. insanity has a precise legal definition which you are clearly not aware of. More importantly, this is very sad for Kasandra's family which includes Jamal Charles' wife.

Did I say anywhere in ANY of my posts that Belcher was insane??? All I said was that it's completely reasonable to question the mental health of somebody when an event like that happens. People keep blowing my comments out of proportion and attributing positions and stances to my comments that I have not taken.

Originally Posted by JetBlue

completely irrelevant. someone choosing to commit a heinous act does not reflect a mental illness that prevents them from controlling their behavior. otherwise all violent criminal acts would simply be the result of insanity. our medical and legal system does not see it that way.

insanity is a specific diagnosis based on specific criteria. your continual insistence on mis-using the word is your issue, and doesn't contradict the facts of the definition and diagnosis at all.

Good grief!!! Look I don't give a fuck what the legal definition of insane is. I wasn't using "insane" as the legal definition. I was simply saying that questioning somebody's mental health after this is justified. It's not saying that the act is fine or he's not to blame, or stating anything definitively about the situation itself. These situations are complicated. It's never just black and white.

Insanity, craziness or madness is a spectrum of behaviors characterized by certain abnormal mental or behavioral patterns. Insanity may manifest as violations of societal norms, including a person becoming a danger to themselves or others, though not all such acts are considered insanity. In modern usage insanity is most commonly encountered as an informal unscientific term denoting mental instability, or in the narrow legal context of the insanity defense. In the medical profession the term is now avoided in favor of diagnoses of specific mental disorders; the presence of delusions or hallucinations is broadly referred to as psychosis.[1] When discussing mental illness in general terms, "psychopathology" is considered a preferred descriptor.[2]

That's how I was using the term. Sorry if it's not exactly the way you want it to be. It's a general term and has more than one meaning, like many words in the English language. Get over it.

[VanderbiltJets]

relevant

The Star also reported Tuesday that Belcher kissed Perkins on the forehead and apologized to her seconds after fatally shooting her. The scene reportedly was witnessed by Belcher's mother, who was staying with the couple. Belcher then reportedly apologized to his mother, kissed his 3-month daughter, and left his home.

When Belcher arrived at Arrowhead on Saturday, he encountered Pioli in the parking lot and told him the assistance the team had offered hadn't fixed the couple's problems and now "it was too late," Sharp said.

Pioli tried to persuade Belcher to put down his gun as Crennel and linebackers coach Gary Gibbs arrived at the scene.

Belcher thanked the men for everything the team had done for him and asked if Pioli and team owner Clark Hunt would take care of his daughter, The Star reported.

After that, Belcher reportedly said, "Guys, I have to do this."

///

[Barry the Baptist]

Originally Posted by VanderbiltJets

relevant



///

I wonder what kind of help the Chiefs provided him to try and fix his home life.

[AbdulSalam]

Originally Posted by Barry the Baptist

I wonder what kind of help the Chiefs provided him to try and fix his home life.

i wonder what steps this person took to fix his own personal life rather than wait for his employer to do that for him.