[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Yet another person who has no clue about Option football trying to discuss Option football. It's laughable.

Google exists. Type in Read Option and find out what it means before running your mouth about it.

When the bulk of your plays centers around handing off, then deciding to let the running back take it, or keep it and run it yourself... that is a run option. If you are running a rollout with a running back in a play designed to decide whether to keep the ball yourself, or toss it back to the running back, it is a run option.

You're an idiot if you think he can play the same type of game as RGIII. cuz, well, he can't pass. RGIII CAN pass and can kill you if you don't respect it. Tebow you can gamble a little bit because odds are, he's gonna miss. Burned a couple teams on occaision, but most stopped him with that approach.... which is why he was dead last in just about every major passing stat.

You also have guys who have come out publicy and straight up said that they believe Tebow should have been given a chance.

and? I didn't say ALL of the Jets players thought he was "terrible." I even said you can find quotes saying nice things about Tebow.

...and you missed the point. What we have here is a DIVIDED locker room. Weren't the jets ALREADY having enough drama without further dividing the team by throwing Tebow in there? Jets just wanted to get through the rest of the season, and one likely reason Tebow didn't get the nod for starting was that McElroy probably wasn't as polarizing in the locker room.

Because over the course of a game, even with crappy play calling, Tebow generally makes stuff happen. You know, those unscripted moments. Perhaps he scrambles 60 yds for a TD, or he scrambles around in the backfield, stiff arms another LB and finds Hill streaking down the sideline for a TD ?

Or maybe it's just some nice 12 yard gains going down the field.

Yeah, he made things happen from time to time. Much too few and far in between for anyone with the power of playing him, but yeah, he did some amazing things once in a while.

That said, what us Tebowners, myself at least, are upset about is that it doesn't appear that the Jets even tried to use Tebow. I'd wager that even if he came in and ran exactly the same plays that were called for Sanchez, he would have done a better job of it. Yes, that includes throwing the ball.

I'd wager not, but there is no way to prove it either way.

I've seen articles and Tebowner opinions across the blogosphere whining that Tebow wasn't used enough and never really got the committment to do so. So what? It still comes down to players being responsible for getting themselves noticed by the coaches, and convincing them that THEY are the best option. While you "might" think it comes down to a tatoo of Rex's wife, perhaps it comes down to Rex not being impressed with what he see's in Tebow out there. I mean, is Rex really the lone ranger on that opinion? Clearly not or teams would be beating the Jets door down to offer their first born to get Tebow.

Seems there is an entitlement mentality that Tebow MUST get start time. There are second an third stringers all over the league who don't get a lot of game planning where they are the focal point, and they don't get a lot of reps with the starters either. If he were anyone else, it would go unnoticed like countless others who have come and gone in this league. Would you share a tear for any of them too? Don't give me his win/loss record either, because most Tebowners were firmly entrenched in the "Tebow Must Start" march long before he got the start. I bet you had a float in that parade as well.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Dennis

*sigh*

OK, this is another "semantics" issue.

Going to wikipedia, I found this definition of a "read-option."


So yeah, by that definition, Tebow ran a "read-option" in Denver. A very simple, single read system.

Ah yes, after being proven wrong on the subject, you decide that it's "semantics" Tebow ran a lot of things in Denver. He ran Read Option, Double Option and even some Triple Option. He also ran a "conventional" NFL offense from under center. You know, 5 and 7 step drops, play action passes, that kind of thing.

The other QBs like RGIII, Kaep and Wilson are running far more sophisticated versions than the Pop Warner playbook which John Fox and Mike McCoy slapped together mid-season for Tebow.

It's 2 totally different animals. So some analysts have been a bit more insistent on differentiating them.

Yeah, I agree. Kaep, Wilson and RGIII are running more sophisticated versions. Guess what ? Tebow ran an even MORE sophisticated version of it at Florida with Urban Meyer's Spread Option. The funny thing is that when Tebow was running Option plays in 2011, it was seen as a crutch. But now, man, it's the newest "Great innovation" in the NFL. Duh.

Whether it was a mistake or not, I was only playing "Devil's Advocate" in pointing it out.

I'll take that as an admission that you concede the point.

As I pointed out, prior to last season, Mark Sanchez had a 27-20 (.575) record and 2 consecutive AFCCG appearances on his record. He may not be a HoF QB, but he wasn't exactly a lump of shit either

.

Yet the 2011 season he went 8-8 and was 4-8 as a starter and largely ineffective over his last 12 games. He wasn't close to being a HoF QB or even a good one at that point.

I do think that Rex felt Sanchez was the only starting caliber QB on the team and that if they went to Tebow the Jets would have more strongly resembled Denver's 1-4 finish in 2011 than Timmy's 7-1 start.

What he saw was that Sanchez wasn't cutting it. What he knew is that Tebow had a winning record last year and that he even won a playoff game through the air. Those things, by themselves, are justification enough to give Tebow a shot. Notice that I didn't say "hand him the starting job". Just give him a shot and see what he could do.

Or you try to fix your QB's problems. Or adjust the scheme to compensate.

They had already tried that by returning to ground and pound, but apparently, you aren't familiar with that history.

Changing QBs is a HUGE move. On a par with firing an Offensive Coordinator during the season. It's normally a sign of extreme desperation. A coach does that when he simply can't think of anything else to do.

Hey, what do you know, the freaking SuperBowl Champs replaced their OC in midseason and the runner up in the SuperBowl replaced their QB.

Doesn't the backup have to show that they can do it better than the starter? Isn't the logical place for that to happen during practices? By all accounts, Tebow failed to show enough there to inspire anyone's confidence in him. That's why he was leapfrogged by McElroy (like Tebow leapfrogged Brady Quinn in Denver).

It depends on the situation. IF the starter is playing well, the #2 would have to look a hell of a lot better to get the nod. However, if the starter is playing like shit over an extended period of time, then no, you just replace him and see what the other guys have to offer. Again, it's not only about the performance of the guy taking over. It's the message that gets sent to the starter as well as the rest of the team.

Nope. Had no idea. And being the cheap SOB I am (my daughter's starting college this fall) it's going to stay unknown to me.

However, I will concede that you have coach's gamefilm.

Well, thanks for that.

I didn't say anything about simply diving headfirst into the line.

You didn't ? Here's what you said:

Um, a "power run" means that the runner "powers" straight thru the Defense, no cutbacks, etc. It's a punch-it-thru approach without any style or finesse. Tebow isn't an elusive runner and isn't great at changing direction quickly. He uses his physical strength (and he's a strong guy, even by NFL standards) to bull his way thru.

Care to explain how that ISN'T diving headfirst into the line ? I'll be honest with you Dennis, it's very hard to have a discussion with someone who either doesn't remember what they say (and can't be bothered to go back and check), or someone who does remember what they said, but tries to deny that they did so. Either way, it makes it kind of difficult.

I was talking about Tebow being a power runner. He's not particularly fast or elusive. He generally won't bounce off a tackler. Whether he's going straight up the gut or around the outside, he runs a simple track. When he runs into the Defense, he doesn't try to skip around them. He lowers his shoulder and hits them as hard as he can trying to either run them over or at least push them backwards to pick up another yard or two before he goes down.

Actually, in open space, Tebow is pretty elusive. Not going to say that he's on par with Barry Sanders or LeSean McCoy, but he can throw some fakes in there. He's also much quicker than people give him credit for. For example, he beat Cam Newton's Combine times in the 10 yard dash (burst speed) as well as the shuttle and the 3 cone drill.

It was YOUR argument. I don't think it's out of line to ask you to back it up.

Anyone following the Jets should readily be aware of Rex's previously stated desire to be ground and pound, as well as his latest claim of wanting an explosive offense.

You might as well be asking me to prove that water is wet and that the Sun rises in the east.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

When the bulk of your plays centers around handing off, then deciding to let the running back take it, or keep it and run it yourself... that is a run option. If you are running a rollout with a running back in a play designed to decide whether to keep the ball yourself, or toss it back to the running back, it is a run option.

Son, let me go ahead and tell you that you are way out of your league even trying to discuss Option football with me. This is yet another case of you not knowing WTF you are talking about.

When the QB and a RB engages in a mesh and the QB decides to hand the ball off or keep the ball, based on what the guy being "read" does, THAT IS THE READ OPTION i.e. Zone Read or Midline Read (depending on whom is being "read").

You're an idiot if you think he can play the same type of game as RGIII. cuz, well, he can't pass. RGIII CAN pass and can kill you if you don't respect it. Tebow you can gamble a little bit because odds are, he's gonna miss. Burned a couple teams on occaision, but most stopped him with that approach.... which is why he was dead last in just about every major passing stat.

Ask Pittsburgh about that. IIRC, they went home because Tebow could pass a lot better than they though he could. Since then, he's had more time to work on his mechanics. So who's the idiot here Sunshine ?

and? I didn't say ALL of the Jets players thought he was "terrible." I even said you can find quotes saying nice things about Tebow.

...and you missed the point. What we have here is a DIVIDED locker room. Weren't the jets ALREADY having enough drama without further dividing the team by throwing Tebow in there? Jets just wanted to get through the rest of the season, and one likely reason Tebow didn't get the nod for starting was that McElroy probably wasn't as polarizing in the locker room.

Oh, so now it's not about Rex's opinion of Tebow ? Or that even McElroy was supposedly better ? Now it's about what the locker room though ? You're hilarious, really.

Yeah, he made things happen from time to time. Much too few and far in between for anyone with the power of playing him, but yeah, he did some amazing things once in a while.

Once in a while doesn't win you 8 games in the NFL.

I'd wager not, but there is no way to prove it either way.

Was there any doubt that you'd "wager not" ?

I've seen articles and Tebowner opinions across the blogosphere whining that Tebow wasn't used enough and never really got the committment to do so. So what? It still comes down to players being responsible for getting themselves noticed by the coaches, and convincing them that THEY are the best option. While you "might" think it comes down to a tatoo of Rex's wife, perhaps it comes down to Rex not being impressed with what he see's in Tebow out there. I mean, is Rex really the lone ranger on that opinion? Clearly not or teams would be beating the Jets door down to offer their first born to get Tebow.

First of all, you don't know what Rex's motivations were. Seeing as how he TOLD Sparano to give Tebow the third series in the Titans game, it's does seem that Rex gave Sparano free rain and was reticent til the end to force him to do anything.

Secondly, given what I've seen of both Sparano and Rex, I wouldn't exactly call either of them offensive gurus, or trust their assessment of a person's ability on offense. Quick question for ya, how's the Terminator doing right now ? You remember him ? John Connor, the awful FB we had who Rex was so enamored with ?

Seems there is an entitlement mentality that Tebow MUST get start time. There are second an third stringers all over the league who don't get a lot of game planning where they are the focal point, and they don't get a lot of reps with the starters either. If he were anyone else, it would go unnoticed like countless others who have come and gone in this league. Would you share a tear for any of them too? Don't give me his win/loss record either, because most Tebowners were firmly entrenched in the "Tebow Must Start" march long before he got the start. I bet you had a float in that parade as well.

I don't know what it is for others, it certainly isn't an "entitlement mentality" with me. I had no problems with Tebow sitting for a couple of years in Denver and developing. It's only when Orton was sucking so bad that Tebow was even an option.

BUT, in my view, Tebow did more than enough in 2011 to show that he can start in the NFL. Does he still have a lot to learn ? Yep. Does he still need a lot of improvement ? Yep. If I were the coach and I had a good QB who was playing well, would I start Tebow ? NOT at this point. BUT, if I had Mark Sanchez as my QB playing the way Mark Sanchez played for most of this year ? HELL YES I'd put Tebow out there.

[usc1978]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Son, let me go ahead and tell you that you are way out of your league even trying to discuss Option football with me. This is yet another case of you not knowing WTF you are talking about.

LOL, you're awfully condescending for a guy whose main argument is that you're really, really, really hopeful that a guy you're obsessed with can magically learn how to not be terrible at the majority of things a QB is asked to do.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by usc1978

LOL, you're awfully condescending for a guy whose main argument is that you're really, really, really hopeful that a guy you're obsessed with can magically learn how to not be terrible at the majority of things a QB is asked to do.

I'm condescending because I'm talking to a few people who have no idea what they are talking about, yet they continue to act as if they do.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Ah yes, after being proven wrong on the subject, you decide that it's "semantics" Tebow ran a lot of things in Denver. He ran Read Option, Double Option and even some Triple Option. He also ran a "conventional" NFL offense from under center. You know, 5 and 7 step drops, play action passes, that kind of thing.

Yeah, I agree. Kaep, Wilson and RGIII are running more sophisticated versions. Guess what ? Tebow ran an even MORE sophisticated version of it at Florida with Urban Meyer's Spread Option. The funny thing is that when Tebow was running Option plays in 2011, it was seen as a crutch. But now, man, it's the newest "Great innovation" in the NFL. Duh.

I'll take that as an admission that you concede the point.

Yet the 2011 season he went 8-8 and was 4-8 as a starter and largely ineffective over his last 12 games. He wasn't close to being a HoF QB or even a good one at that point.

What he saw was that Sanchez wasn't cutting it. What he knew is that Tebow had a winning record last year and that he even won a playoff game through the air. Those things, by themselves, are justification enough to give Tebow a shot. Notice that I didn't say "hand him the starting job". Just give him a shot and see what he could do.

They had already tried that by returning to ground and pound, but apparently, you aren't familiar with that history.

Hey, what do you know, the freaking SuperBowl Champs replaced their OC in midseason and the runner up in the SuperBowl replaced their QB.

It depends on the situation. IF the starter is playing well, the #2 would have to look a hell of a lot better to get the nod. However, if the starter is playing like shit over an extended period of time, then no, you just replace him and see what the other guys have to offer. Again, it's not only about the performance of the guy taking over. It's the message that gets sent to the starter as well as the rest of the team.

Well, thanks for that.

You didn't ? Here's what you said:

Care to explain how that ISN'T diving headfirst into the line ? I'll be honest with you Dennis, it's very hard to have a discussion with someone who either doesn't remember what they say (and can't be bothered to go back and check), or someone who does remember what they said, but tries to deny that they did so. Either way, it makes it kind of difficult.

Actually, in open space, Tebow is pretty elusive. Not going to say that he's on par with Barry Sanders or LeSean McCoy, but he can throw some fakes in there. He's also much quicker than people give him credit for. For example, he beat Cam Newton's Combine times in the 10 yard dash (burst speed) as well as the shuttle and the 3 cone drill.

Anyone following the Jets should readily be aware of Rex's previously stated desire to be ground and pound, as well as his latest claim of wanting an explosive offense.

You might as well be asking me to prove that water is wet and that the Sun rises in the east.

Okay D9.

We were having a good discussion of actual football, but you ruined that.

You have reverted to full Teboner form, Timmy can do anything, Rex is stupid and Sanchez sucks. Anyone who disagrees with your viewpoint is a retard who doesn't know what he's talking about.

Wake up.

NO ONE WANTS TEBOW.

If he's lucky, he'll wind up in Saskatoon.

Tebow went 1-4 at the end because he's been figured out. He can't read NFL Defenses and he can't throw worth a damn. He sucks as a QB. Denver's Defense kept games close and lil Timmy got lucky when Defenses relaxed that the end of games.

I'm done talking with you. So take your deluded, condescending attitude and go pound sand...

[usc1978]

He was probably the biggest story of the 2011 season and only two teams pursued him. Maybe all of the ladies that make up Tebow's fanbase are right and everyone else in football is wrong about Tebow's ability, but I suspect it's more likely everyone knows he's not an NFL QB.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Dennis

Okay D9.

We were having a good discussion of actual football, but you ruined that.

You have reverted to full Teboner form, Timmy can do anything, Rex is stupid and Sanchez sucks.

NO ONE WANTS TEBOW.

If he's lucky, he'll wind up in Saskatoon.

Tebow went 1-4 at the end because he's been figured out. He can't read NFL Defenses and he can't throw worth a damn. He sucks as a QB. Denver's Defense kept games close and lil Timmy got lucky when Defenses relaxed that the end of games.

I'm done talking with you. So take your deluded, condescending attitude and go pound sand...

Yes, I ruined it by daring to tell you that you were wrong when you claimed that Tebow didn't run the Read Option. You then doubled down and again tried to claim that he didn't run the Read Option, but rather, the Option-run.

Then, after being shown that you were absolutely 100% wrong on the subjection, you came back and claimed that it was a matter of semantics.

Now, I was actually being nice as I went back and edited my post and took out the more inflammatory comments, but since you replied with this, let me take the time to go back and make some comments.

You didn't say "I don't think he ran Read/Option".
You didn't even say "I'm not sure that he ran Read/Option".

Nope, you flat out stated that he didn't run Read Option.

Then, when I replied that you were wrong, you had the chance to actually research the subject and find out for yourself. Wouldn't have been hard as you could have gone to Google and typed "Tebow Broncos Read Option". It's not like those keywords are cryptic or hard to figure out, given that we were discussing Tebow, while with the Broncos, running the Read Option.

However, IF you didn't have the faculties necessary to figure out that easy search, you could have gone to a good old standy and typed "Read Option Wiki" at Google which would have quickly led you to this:

The most popular running play employed in the spread is the Read Option. This play is also known as the Zone-Read, QB Choice, or QB Wrap. A type of double option, the read option is relatively simple play during which the offensive line zone blocks in one direction, ignoring defensive personnel, while the quarterback makes a single read (usually of the backside defensive end or linebacker) and decides whether or not to hand the ball to a running back on a dive or slant track -- "reading the end and decide whether to keep it or to pull it".

Presuming that you have an understanding of football to know what was being said, and presuming that you watched any of Denver's games in 2011, you would have quickly realized that yes, in fact, Tebow did run the Read Option in Denver.

BUT no, you had to double down and come back with this gem:

Originally Posted by Dennis

Tebow ran an option scheme. That doesn't mean it was a "read-option." It was specifically referred to as a "run-option" because that's what it was. It was far different than the "read-option" that RGIII, etc ran last season.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Of course, you didn't understand the terminology that the writer was using, but you didn't let that stop you. Nope, you just had to run back here and make your post telling me that I was wrong.

IF you had taken perhaps 10 seconds to educate yourself, you wouldn't have ended up looking so foolish in the process. How could you have done this ? Again, Google. It's your friend. A simple search for that mysterious term, "option run", the one you weren't familiar with. First result comes from Wiki. By clicking that link, you would have educated yourself, and again, saved some embarrassment.



As for the rest of your post, and you being "done with me", seeing as how you don't know what you are talking about and you don't make even the slightest effort to educate yourself on subjects that you don't know anything about, I'm really not going to lose any sleep over the fact that you are going to take your widdle ball and go home. That's what usually happens when a person finds themselves routinely having their ass handed to them.

Actually, let me help make it really easy for you.

Click this link:

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In the box, under where it says:

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Paste this name in:

Demosthenes9

Then be sure to hit the "Okay" button. Afterwords, you wont have to worry about seeing my posts, or getting your widdle feelings hurt when I eviscerate you in a reply. And yes, even though you have me on ignore, I will be replying to any post of your's that I choose.

Now run along now little guy and have a day.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

Son, let me go ahead and tell you that you are way out of your league even trying to discuss Option football with me. This is yet another case of you not knowing WTF you are talking about.

Yeah yeah, you've already established yourself as a know it all... Apparently you are smarter than every decision maker in the NFL too since you see no problems with the three and out King leading a team.

I think Dennis has you pegged. Anyone who doesn't see the world through Tebow colored glasses is an idiot according to you.

Ask Pittsburgh about that. IIRC, they went home because Tebow could pass a lot better than they though he could. Since then, he's had more time to work on his mechanics. So who's the idiot here Sunshine ?

More condescending names doesn't make you smarter. You honestly call that "eviscerating" people when more than 50% of your post is just more condescension.

...and no, if Tebow got better at passing, he would have been playing more. He hasn't, so he doesn't get more time, and that is one of the reasons NOBODY WANTS HIM!!!!

Oh, so now it's not about Rex's opinion of Tebow ? Or that even McElroy was supposedly better ? Now it's about what the locker room though ? You're hilarious, really.

I said it might have been ONE major factor, yes. But it still ties in together, because a major reason Tebow is so damn polarizing to begin with isn't just that he's famous and popular, but also because he just isn't that damn good. He doesn't have the skillset to back it up and that irks a LOT of people.

Once in a while doesn't win you 8 games in the NFL.

It does when you give up 15 points or less in more than half of those wins. Just ask Orton who went 23-2.

I know, I know, you're afraid to consider that one and keep ducking it.

...and besides, Sanchez got to the AFC championship twice and only played a year longer than Tebow. If you won't credit the Bronco defense for carrying Tebow and his three and outs and his 16-17 points per game, then you can't do the same for Sanchez either.

First of all, you don't know what Rex's motivations were. Seeing as how he TOLD Sparano to give Tebow the third series in the Titans game, it's does seem that Rex gave Sparano free rain and was reticent til the end to force him to do anything.

Secondly, given what I've seen of both Sparano and Rex, I wouldn't exactly call either of them offensive gurus, or trust their assessment of a person's ability on offense. Quick question for ya, how's the Terminator doing right now ? You remember him ? John Connor, the awful FB we had who Rex was so enamored with ?

That's your opinion, but I am kinda left scratching my head wondering why you are so confused as to why those guys wouldn't give a guy who was dead last in every major passing category a year ago, one who led the league in three and outs, and sees him spend most of practice time MISSING receivers on routes... ...and wondering why he isn't getting more playing time and a couple of starts?

I don't know what it is for others, it certainly isn't an "entitlement mentality" with me. I had no problems with Tebow sitting for a couple of years in Denver and developing. It's only when Orton was sucking so bad that Tebow was even an option.

There was a rather large group that wanted Tebow to start in game 1 of his rookie year. The following year when everyone thought Orton was going to be traded wanted NO PART of a competition. They just wanted to hand him the job whether he was ready for it or not. Broncos had a LOT more problems than just at QB.

There weren't that many content to let Tebow sit for a couple years, even before Orton played himself out of a job.

Denver was always kind of funny about their quarterbacks though. Always thinking they had another "future Elway" in the organization somewhere. That was one of the reasons Cutler didn't care for our fanbase that much when he was here. Poor Brian Griese, expected to fill Elway's shoes, and that got worse in Denver when Shannahan compared him more like Montana.

BUT, in my view, Tebow did more than enough in 2011 to show that he can start in the NFL. Does he still have a lot to learn ? Yep. Does he still need a lot of improvement ? Yep. If I were the coach and I had a good QB who was playing well, would I start Tebow ? NOT at this point. BUT, if I had Mark Sanchez as my QB playing the way Mark Sanchez played for most of this year ? HELL YES I'd put Tebow out there.

I don't now that he did enough to prove that in 2011. He did some things in the 4th quarter that not every QB can do, but he was so damn inept prior to that most of the time, it isn't any wonder teams are second guessing him. He's looking more like a game manager type that won't put you in harms way by throwing interceptions, but won't help you by moving the chains either, and can only really give you a shot to win the game if the defense is superb most of the game.

Nothing special there, really.

...and if Sanchez was playing that bad, I "might" consider playing Tebow instead... if I had any faith in the guy. Honestly, if I'm seeing a horror show in practice for the last few months, I'm probably not looking forward to give him a shot either.

...and you should PROBABLY be happy about that. As disfunctional as the Jets were, do you HONESTLY see any good coming out of the starts other than the gratification of seeing him play? The team quit, probably half had no interrest in playing for Tebow. You and your cronies point out CONSTANTLY that the team wasn't behind him, didn't run his plays in practice, and didn't give him any reps, and spent more of his practice time running special teams and wildcat/punt protector drills. Then we find out a lot of guys didn't really want him to begin with... Under those circumstances, really, all Tebow could have done is embarrass himself.

Or do you think he would have overcome ALL that crap and won games anyway? If so, I think it is time for you to part company with that kool-aid. Waaaay too much working against him in that scenario to do a damn thing to raise his value.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

Yeah yeah, you've already established yourself as a know it all... Apparently you are smarter than every decision maker in the NFL too since you see no problems with the three and out King leading a team.

It's been well demonstrated that I know a hell of a lot more about football than you do Sunshine.

And again, you are freaking LYING like you usually do. I never said that there are no problems with Tebow. I have commented at length about most of his problems.

I think Dennis has you pegged. Anyone who doesn't see the world through Tebow colored glasses is an idiot according to you.

Actually, I consider people who don't know what they are talking about, but pretend as if they do, to be idiots. I mean, how in the fark are you going to sit there and debate a point that you don't know anything about ?

There's a ton of shit that I am clueless about. IF it's being discussed and I want to partake in the discussion, I go out and at least familiarize myself with the subject.

Like I said to Dennis, he didnt know wtf the Read Option was, but that didn't stop him from making claims about it. Then, when contradicted, he still didnt know wtf he was talking about but he doubled down and said I was wrong. It was a stupidly easy point that he could have researched and educated himself on. Instead of doing so, he made himself look like a fool. Coincidentally, you jumped in and did the same thing.

You've been down this road many times. You jump in THINKING that you know what you are talking about when the reality is, YOU DON'T HAVE THE FIRST FARKING CLUE. Usually takes about 10 seconds or less to show that you are completely wrong, but even then, you still want to argue about it.

More condescending names doesn't make you smarter. You honestly call that "eviscerating" people when more than 50% of your post is just more condescension.

No,"eviscerating" someone is when I point blank demonstrate that they have no clue as to what they are talking about.

...and no, if Tebow got better at passing, he would have been playing more. He hasn't, so he doesn't get more time, and that is one of the reasons NOBODY WANTS HIM!!!!

Bullshit. Tebow beat Pitt in his next to last game with the Broncos by passing the ball. In the offseason that followed, he worked on his mechanics. He was then traded to the Jets, a team that already had a starting QB and he never had a shot at replacing Sanchez, because Rex wasn't ready for that. That's another thing that you and others can't get through your head.

I said it might have been ONE major factor, yes. But it still ties in together, because a major reason Tebow is so damn polarizing to begin with isn't just that he's famous and popular, but also because he just isn't that damn good. He doesn't have the skillset to back it up and that irks a LOT of people.

He's a young freaking QB with only 16 games of experience as a starter. I love how you all expect this kid to be out there playing like Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers. That said, the kid still has "it" in ways that are immeasurable but basically off the charts. Every coach who has ever been associated with him has said the same thing.

Do you understand how rare that is in a player ? His problems/deficiencies are things that can be coached. His mechanics can be fixed through reps. He can learn how to read defenses better through experience and coaching. But, he has innate abilities that are important to a QB that CAN'T BE COACHED OR TAUGHT.

It does when you give up 15 points or less in more than half of those wins. Just ask Orton who went 23-2.
I know, I know, you're afraid to consider that one and keep ducking it.

...and besides, Sanchez got to the AFC championship twice and only played a year longer than Tebow. If you won't credit the Bronco defense for carrying Tebow and his three and outs and his 16-17 points per game, then you can't do the same for Sanchez either.

No, it still doesn't. I love how people talk about how the defense won the games. The defense wasn't on the field during that 95 yard drive against the Jets TO WIN THE GAME. The defense certainly made it possible, to be sure, but it was still Tebow that drove down the field for the game winning score.

As for Sanchez, the difference is that he usually wasnt the catalyst on offense. Yes, he won some games, but often, it was just turn and hand the ball off and let the running game do it's thing.

With Denver, they never put the game on McGahee's shoulders. He certainly helped, as did other players who stepped up, but the dynamic was completely different. Even with the running game, Tebow was a large part of it.

That's your opinion, but I am kinda left scratching my head wondering why you are so confused as to why those guys wouldn't give a guy who was dead last in every major passing category a year ago, one who led the league in three and outs, and sees him spend most of practice time MISSING receivers on routes... ...and wondering why he isn't getting more playing time and a couple of starts?

First of all, you have no fucking idea what happened in practice. Secondly, I've already explained why they should have put him in.

There was a rather large group that wanted Tebow to start in game 1 of his rookie year. The following year when everyone thought Orton was going to be traded wanted NO PART of a competition. They just wanted to hand him the job whether he was ready for it or not. Broncos had a LOT more problems than just at QB.

Ummm, no, there wasn't a rather large group that wanted Tebow to start in game 1 of his rookie year. You are lying again. Going into the 2nd year, when Orton was to be traded, hell, the Broncos themselves said that Tebow would be the starter. That's what happens when you draft a QB high in the draft, sit him for a year and then trade away the guy who was the starter. You give the rook a year to try and learn things, then you give him the reps in training camp and see what he can do his first year. This comes as a surprise to you ? Actually, I'm sure it does since you have no understanding of how things work in football. Seriously, how long ago did you start watching ? Perhaps back in 2010 when Tebow got drafted and you started stalking him ?

There weren't that many content to let Tebow sit for a couple years, even before Orton played himself out of a job.

Yes, most were content. If Orton had done a better job, they would have been more content.

I don't now that he did enough to prove that in 2011. He did some things in the 4th quarter that not every QB can do, but he was so damn inept prior to that most of the time, it isn't any wonder teams are second guessing him. He's looking more like a game manager type that won't put you in harms way by throwing interceptions, but won't help you by moving the chains either, and can only really give you a shot to win the game if the defense is superb most of the game.

Did you miss the part where he's only had 16 starts and has never been in training camp as the starter, getting starter's reps ??

...and if Sanchez was playing that bad, I "might" consider playing Tebow instead... if I had any faith in the guy. Honestly, if I'm seeing a horror show in practice for the last few months, I'm probably not looking forward to give him a shot either.

Again, you don't understand the dynamics. There are times when a guy does so well in practice that he earns playing time in games. HOWEVER, there are times when guys do soooo poorly in games, that they earn some time on the bench to be replaced by whomever is next up, regardless of what they have shown in practice.

Hell, Rex's own actions proves this to be true. Do you honestly believe that Rex thought McElroy was better than Sanchez ?

...and you should PROBABLY be happy about that. As disfunctional as the Jets were, do you HONESTLY see any good coming out of the starts other than the gratification of seeing him play? The team quit, probably half had no interrest in playing for Tebow. You and your cronies point out CONSTANTLY that the team wasn't behind him, didn't run his plays in practice, and didn't give him any reps, and spent more of his practice time running special teams and wildcat/punt protector drills. Then we find out a lot of guys didn't really want him to begin with... Under those circumstances, really, all Tebow could have done is embarrass himself.

Or do you think he would have overcome ALL that crap and won games anyway? If so, I think it is time for you to part company with that kool-aid. Waaaay too much working against him in that scenario to do a damn thing to raise his value.

That's actually a good question. I think Tebow would have done a hell of a lot better than Sanchez. I think the young guys on the team would have been fine with Tebow from the first time he entered the game. These are some of the guys that were on the same squads with him in TC. I think most others would either be won over or would have acted professionally. Would everyone have been onboard ? No. Would Sparano have suddenly morphed into a good OC ? No. Would Tebow have been able to make things happen anyways ? Yes.

So, it's a mixed bag. Tebow definitely wouldn't have been in an offense that played to his strengths. But I think anyone looking at the offense would see that it was better under Tebow than it was under Sanchez.

[DirtySanchez]

Originally Posted by LongTimeJetsFan

Mangini never won a playoff game as a HC here and he had a future HOF QB to work with. Let's not act like he built some stacked roster that any coach could win with. Rex was in the AFCCG his first season, with a rookie QB.

2008 was interesting, because Farve really looked good early in the season. If the Jets could have somehow retained Farve for 2009 and 2010 it could have been really fun. It's hard to envision the Jets having success though if Mangini had stayed....Rex and his guys made the defense (especially pass D) so much better.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

It's been well demonstrated that I know a hell of a lot more about football than you do Sunshine.

Well, moonshine, I would beg to differ since you think a 46% completion percentage and leading the league in three and outs equates to showing he could be a good QB. ....Sunshine. (Are you British? Or one of those false wankers?)

Actually, I consider people who don't know what they are talking about, but pretend as if they do, to be idiots. yack yack..

More elitist snobbery from you... next.

Like I said to Dennis, he didnt know wtf the Read Option was,...

More snobbery....

You jump in THINKING that you know what you are talking ... YOU DON'T HAVE THE FIRST FARKING CLUE. mumble mumble.

More "I'm smarter than you" snobbery....

Bullshit. Tebow beat Pitt in his next to last game with the Broncos by passing the ball. In the offseason that followed, he worked on his mechanics.

FINALLY!!! some substance behind the arrogance. Was curing my insomnia with you putting yourself on a pedistal and belittling everyone else.

He looked about the same in preseason to me with the Jets. Not sure where you saw all this improvment you say happened. The Jets used him as a running back as the Broncos did prior to him starting. Those watching STILL say he can't hit the broad side of the barn. There's NO WAY with the way the Jets have treated him that the got better reading passing defenses...

Just not seeing it, bro... err... sunshine. ...or cupcake.

All that "intangible" stuff is indeed off the charts, cut can't carry the load by itself.

No, it still doesn't. I love how people talk about how the defense won the games. The defense wasn't on the field during that 95 yard drive against the Jets TO WIN THE GAME. The defense certainly made it possible, to be sure, but it was still Tebow that drove down the field for the game winning score.

You're talking about a SINGLE drive where Tebow did a good job. *applauds* See, I give Tebow a pat on the back for it and an "atta boy!!!!" Good job, Tebow. (Happy?)

But you missed the boat too. Why did that SINGLE drive even matter? Why didn't that last drive against the Patriots matter in either game even if Tebow somehow became a superhuman cyborg?

One side of the ball played heroicly for 5 minutes, the other, 60 minutes. I'd say the Defense did the heavy lifting.

You see where I'm going with this, cupcake?

...and Kyle Orton was able to win when that happened. Wanna know what his record was? 23-2, there, sweetcheeks.

Defenses can carry an inept offense to where they can win with 10 offensive points. IT MATTERS!!!! It helped Tebow get more than half the wins you get a tickle up your leg about.

Or do can you tell me how Tebow would have won ANY of those games had the defense allowed more than 2 scores worth of points and not kept them in the game while Tebow was busy punting the ball away?

Ummm, no, there wasn't a rather large group that wanted Tebow to start in game 1 of his rookie year.

Unmmm, yes there was. I was living in the middle of it. People were sick of "boring old Orton" and really expected the college champion hieisman winner to knock him out of the starting job immediately.

Going into the 2nd year, when Orton was to be traded, hell, the Broncos themselves said that Tebow would be the starter.

Bullshit. As soon as Fox was hired, he and Elway BOTH were quoted "if the season started today... Orton would be the starter." It generated a lot of whining on Bronco message boards too since Orton was seen as the guy that had no future with the Broncos, and people went Ga Ga over Tebow's performance in those 3 games he got. They thought he already earned the job.

That's what happens when you draft a QB high in the draft, sit him for a year and then trade away the guy who was the starter. You give the rook a year to try and learn things, then you give him the reps in training camp and see what he can do his first year. This comes as a surprise to you ?

Sure, if the guy demonstrates he is ready. Fox looked at him one day into camp and decided immediately he wasn't. But even his coach in Florida

Yes, most were content. If Orton had done a better job, they would have been more content.

No, they werrent. Those firmly in the Tebow camp couldn't have cared less that Orton severely outplayed Tebow in preseason. They didn't care about the reports out of Dove Valley saying Tebow was really struggling in camp. They wanted him starting. Period. End of story. Didn't want a competition, didn't want Orton, at all.

Did you miss the part where he's only had 16 starts and has never been in training camp as the starter, getting starter's reps ??

Already been down that road. I don't believe 7 on 7 OTAs in the offseason, and a couple of weeks in camp make all the difference when 4 months worth a GAMES (which is better than ANY traning camp practice) as well as all the walkthroughs with some starter catching his ducks rather than a seocnd stringer. Most get better as time goes on with the starters, Tebow did not. He might have gotten worse if that 1-4 is any indication.

Again, you don't understand the dynamics.

zzzzzzz

There are times when a guy does so well in practice that he earns playing time in games. HOWEVER, there are times when guys do soooo poorly in games, that they earn some time on the bench to be replaced by whomever is next up, regardless of what they have shown in practice.

Unless the second guy is worse, which I believe to be the case with the Jets. This is why they went o McElroy. I think locker room division over Tebow played a role too, but we'll skip that for now.

Tebow got the nod last year, because the Broncos could in no way justify getting rid of their first round pick, especially as popular as he was, without giving him a hard look. It was simply gonna happen at some point. It had to even if the coaching staff didn't really seem high on him.

That's actually a good question. I think Tebow would have done a hell of a lot better than Sanchez. I think the young guys on the team would have been fine with Tebow from the first time he entered the game. These are some of the guys that were on the same squads with him in TC. I think most others would either be won over or would have acted professionally. Would everyone have been onboard ? No. Would Sparano have suddenly morphed into a good OC ? No. Would Tebow have been able to make things happen anyways ? Yes.

So, it's a mixed bag. Tebow definitely wouldn't have been in an offense that played to his strengths. But I think anyone looking at the offense would see that it was better under Tebow than it was under Sanchez.

I could not disagree more. I consider Sanchez to be basically another Orton. And all I saw was a decline in production in EVERY category except for rushing, which was nowhere near enough to make up for what else they lost. The wins came because the defense finally started to gel and they saw a more defense friendly schedule most of the rest of the way. There wasn't a single team on the rest of the schedule with a winning record other than the Patriots, which ended in a blowout.

There is no reason for me to believe all that lack of production would have increased with Tebow suddenly starting for the Jets. All you have is your faith in Tebow being that good.

[WestonJetson]

Release Tebow

[WestonJetson]

Please. Tw