[sunbeam]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

RGIII could excel at being a pocket passer in the league right NOW. Tebow and Kaepernik could not excel at it.

You forgot to add for your Tebow option, the gmae has to be close in the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter how much you wear the defendse down if you are down by 21 in the 4th. RGIII is clearly the best passer out of the 3 right now, the best QB out of the 3 right now, and all 32 teams would take RGIII right now. There's no debate to that. I do think there is a debate for Tebow vs Kaepernick but it leans towards Kap just because he has Harbaugh propping him up and making him overachieve. I might be wrong and Kap could be great without Harbaugh, but right now I think Kap is overachieving

Gee are Brady and P. Manning propped up because they aren't expected to make plays with their legs?

And what about a coach, say his name is Ryan for argument's sake, who makes all quarterbacks look awful?

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by sunbeam

Gee are Brady and P. Manning propped up because they aren't expected to make plays with their legs?

And what about a coach, say his name is Ryan for argument's sake, who makes all quarterbacks look awful?

I don't know how any of this relates to what you quoted from me.

Brady and Manning are "propped up" because they are really really really good at what they do. They have 7 out of the last 10 SB apperances from the AFC and 6/10 NFL MVP awards. They are ridiculously good at scoring points and winning games. The two main goals of the offense at most times in the game. Has either one had a losing season in the last 10 years? Neither one has missed the plaoyffs (barring injury) since 2002. I mean running has nothing to do with it. They are elite at what they do

[vanpelt4prez]

The spread is tough to run in the nfl because of active players on gameday. For that reason it needs to be more run based.

I think it's tough to run as a full time offense but it is definitely alive in the NFL. We will see more of it not less. So many players growing up played high school in a spread offense, are now playing college in a spread offense, which will only translate to the nfl.

Same goes for coaches. What % of all coaches (high school, college, nfl) will even know how to run a "pro style offense" in 10, 20, etc years.

[THEGRIDIRONGEEKBR]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

RGIII could excel at being a pocket passer in the league right NOW. Tebow and Kaepernik could not excel at it.

You forgot to add for your Tebow option, the gmae has to be close in the 4th quarter. It doesn't matter how much you wear the defendse down if you are down by 21 in the 4th. RGIII is clearly the best passer out of the 3 right now, the best QB out of the 3 right now, and all 32 teams would take RGIII right now. There's no debate to that. I do think there is a debate for Tebow vs Kaepernick but it leans towards Kap just because he has Harbaugh propping him up and making him overachieve. I might be wrong and Kap could be great without Harbaugh, but right now I think Kap is overachieving

Very spot-on analysis.

1. I don't know if I agree that RG3 could "excel" as a pure pocket guy, because the Redskins are using a very simple passing system. Their option threat affords them this luxury, so if RG couldn't run, who knows? But it's nothing against him. Running the option takes its own kind of football intelligence, but that gets routinely, almost criminally overlooked.

2. I would definitely take RG3 over Timmy right now. RG's pluses outweigh Tebow's pluses, and the former might prove to be an equally great leader on and off the field. Things change, though. A question is whether RG can stay healthy running the option. When LB's decide to punish RG, he's in danger. When they try to punish Tebow, they're in danger.

3. Tebow rarely gets blown out unless he turns the ball over. For a young QB he is very patient and follows coaches' orders like a knight. Once the 2011 Broncos decided to play power/option football he was never losing big until late in the year when the 'D were overwhelmed, and he pressed and threw picks. Whoever coaches Tebow next can forget all of the fan/media blather and just focus on developing his game management skills. If you run the ball well and don't turn it over, you're never going to be losing by 21 unless your defense plays so bad that you have no chance anyway.

4. I don't think we've seen the best out of Kaepernick yet. He was as dominant as Tebow in college, he just didn't play for the glamour school. You know Harbaugh has been saving a few things for the playoffs.

[Jetsetter34]

Originally Posted by THEGRIDIRONGEEKBR

Very spot-on analysis.

1. I don't know if I agree that RG3 could "excel" as a pure pocket guy, because the Redskins are using a very simple passing system. Their option threat affords them this luxury, so if RG couldn't run, who knows? But it's nothing against him. Running the option takes its own kind of football intelligence, but that gets routinely, almost criminally overlooked.

2. I would definitely take RG3 over Timmy right now. RG's pluses outweigh Tebow's pluses, and the former might prove to be an equally great leader on and off the field. Things change, though. A question is whether RG can stay healthy running the option. When LB's decide to punish RG, he's in danger. When they try to punish Tebow, they're in danger.

3. Tebow rarely gets blown out unless he turns the ball over. For a young QB he is very patient and follows coaches' orders like a knight. Once the 2011 Broncos decided to play power/option football he was never losing big until late in the year when the 'D were overwhelmed, and he pressed and threw picks. Whoever coaches Tebow next can forget all of the fan/media blather and just focus on developing his game management skills. If you run the ball well and don't turn it over, you're never going to be losing by 21 unless your defense plays so bad that you have no chance anyway.

4. I don't think we've seen the best out of Kaepernick yet. He was as dominant as Tebow in college, he just didn't play for the glamour school. You know Harbaugh has been saving a few things for the playoffs.

The more film i see and the more i see him play... I agree. Kid has a howitzer arm, no fear and can move. I looked up his stats 62.4 completion percentage 10 tds 3 int (3-1 td to int ratio is good) plus he seems to have a good read for defenses. 98.8 rating is pretty solid as well. I dont know much about the kid but I wish he was a Jet!!!

[Realistic Jets Fan]

the main difference is that RG3 can pass and is an NFL quarterback

Tebow sucks and isn't

[THEGRIDIRONGEEKBR]

Originally Posted by Realistic Jets Fan

the main difference is that RG3 can pass and is an NFL quarterback

Tebow sucks and isn't

No disrespect, but it's ironic that you're called "Realistic" Jets fan with statements like that.

Nobody who has ever actually been involved with football can afford to think in artificial absolutes. Phrases like "he sucks' and "not an NFL quarterback" and "player x can pass/y can't pass" separate your words from reality. It's great for fans who are sitting on the coach eating chips, but not realistic.

For instance, RG3, but your standards, is NOT an NFL quarterback. He may have a strong arm, but he has never been asked to execute an "NFL" passing offense (read: the passing offense that has been in vogue lately in the NFL) of complex reads and a million precise, short passes into tight windows. RG3 is executing an advanced "college" offense of option running plays and simple passes into larger windows, he just happens to be doing it for the Washington Redskins. Despite, by your definition, never having played a down of "NFL QB," RG3 is in the NFL playoffs as a starting QB. Tebow meanwhile is 1-1 in the NFL playoffs as a starting QB despite, apparently, never having been a QB in the NFL. Isn't that interesting?

Honestly, fans who think this way should just make up your own "NFL" standings in the future that eliminate teams who play option QB's, or whoever else you disapprove of & therefore consider "Not the NFL." Like say Tebow, RG3 & Kaepernick all go to the playoffs with three different teams next year, none of which are running an "NFL system." Just cross them out. You can get your two favorite teams who missed the playoffs playing an "NFL" QB in whatever outmoded dink-and-dunk offense they're in, and have the "Real NFL Super Bowl" at your house. On a playstation. All of the armchair, macho, lazy-minded football fans who say things like "so-and-so 5 year player sucks" or "so-and-so 1000 yard rusher can't run" will probably choose your Super Bowl over the real one, so that means only 5% of America will tune in to the real game and you'll have a 95% share of their dumb asses.

[Realistic Jets Fan]

realistically RG3 is a good player

and Tebow sucks


other than that they are the same

[displacedfan]

The thing to note with SEA and SF who had success with it, they also have very strong defenses and very talented RBs. While having a "traditional" top QB can eliminate that need for a strong RB or strong defense or both and have the same amount of success. The game is still favored to the "traditional" passing attack and less is needed to be consistently successful team under the "traditional" way.

[sunbeam]

I think as early as next year you will see a team in the NFL go full bore on the spread. They might not use it as the full time offense (though that could happen) but someone will pull the trigger on it.

And then we'll see how it does. And over time we'll see if defenses adjust. I don't think they can, because fundamentally you've made it 11 on 11. An invincible attack? No, on any given Saturday you can see a spread offense shut down in the college ranks. I will say that usually when it is stuffed it is because the defense has a lot more talent than the offense they are playing. This simply won't be as much of an issue in the NFL, or if it is scheme isn't going to help you much anyway.

And another issue that will lead to it's adoption is the limited number of the kind of quarterback most of you think is "NFL" that colleges put out now. Be truthful, how many guys of Luck's caliber have come out of college in the past 10 years? By that I mean he has all the tools to excel as a pocket quarterback? If they have the arm, they don't have the smarts. They have the smarts, they don't have the arm. They have both, maybe they are just too short (Brees notwithstanding).

Colleges do put out a ton of athletic guys with strong arms who can excel with the kinds of throws they will make in one of these offenses. Quite simply they are not going to have the make the same kinds of reads they would have to in a "conventional" offense. You still have to decide where and if to throw or run, but there seems to be a lot more people who can do this than be a pocket quarterback.

Just as an aside, most of the qb's who are currently considered the best actually seem to be playing in a version of what New England's been doing the past 5 or 6 years. If there is an "elite" offense out there that is basically running the West Coast or some variation of Gibb's Washington offense, I don't know who it is.

[Realistic Jets Fan]

the read option could be getting more popular'


but as everyone found out

Tebow sucks at the read option too

[DirtySanchez]

Originally Posted by LongTimeJetsFan

Everyone except the guys whose livelihood depends on making that decision and some "haters".

You are still standing by Sanchez and trolling these forums? This season for Sanchez was much worse than Tebow's body of work. If it were not for Sanchez's contract he would likely be sitting on a bench somewhere else next season.

[DirtySanchez]

RG3 in 15 games:

65 percent completion percentage
4015 yards combined passing and rushing
27 Tds rush/pass
5 turnovers

Edit: What I cant get over is how well he did as far as turnovers and completion percentage for a rookie.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by DirtySanchez

RG3 in 15 games:

65 percent completion percentage
4015 yards combined passing and rushing
27 Tds rush/pass
5 turnovers

Edit: What I cant get over is how well he did as far as turnovers and completion percentage for a rookie.

I still wanna know what the hell Shannahan was thinking by playing him after the first half of the game. now he will likely be out for a portion of next season too. that twist of the knee when he went down was just sick

[DirtySanchez]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

I still wanna know what the hell Shannahan was thinking by playing him after the first half of the game. now he will likely be out for a portion of next season too. that twist of the knee when he went down was just sick

Yeah I was the same way, I kept saying "Why the fuck is he still out there?".

[CowboysFan]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

I still wanna know what the hell Shannahan was thinking by playing him after the first half of the game. now he will likely be out for a portion of next season too. that twist of the knee when he went down was just sick

That was crazy. The redskins organization seems to think that he got hurt on the previous play (the sack) that twist was just the knee completely loose.

Either way add "iron Will" to the list of superlatives to describe RG3, he was walking around the sidelines not even limping after the game. You know he had to be in awesome pain.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Realistic Jets Fan

the read option could be getting more popular'


but as everyone found out

Tebow sucks at the read option too

First thing's first. Before T-boners can talk about teams going to the spread, and putting Tebow behind the wheel of it.... how about we see him actually beat out the shitty QBs that always seem to be sitting in front of him in the depth chart.

The spread can work to an extent, IMO. Won't matter if the QB can't throw worth a shit though.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by CowboysFan

That was crazy. The redskins organization seems to think that he got hurt on the previous play (the sack) that twist was just the knee completely loose.

Either way add "iron Will" to the list of superlatives to describe RG3, he was walking around the sidelines not even limping after the game. You know he had to be in awesome pain.

I couldn't even begin to imagine. I mean, when he twisted it and went down, he didn't even try to get the loose ball that effectively ended the game.

I've seen people blow out knees before and not have a serious limp. A guy I work with had it and it was only slight. Get him trying to do side to side movement though... yeah, he had serious problems.

But damn, this could really destroy his career. The year after the Broncos last Superbowl, Terrel Davis was making a tackle on a player that intercepted the ball. One of our offensive linemen rolled on the ground and caught the side of Davis's knee... and it was never the same again. He took a couple tries coming back, but it never worked out. That was in the 2000 - 2001 season, an in an interview just a couple years ago when asked about his knee, he said, "sometimes, I can't even walk."

Shannahan of all people should have known that when it was obvious there were problems by half time in that last game. He was the head coach at the time then too for the Broncos.

[CowboysFan]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

I couldn't even begin to imagine. I mean, when he twisted it and went down, he didn't even try to get the loose ball that effectively ended the game.

I've seen people blow out knees before and not have a serious limp. A guy I work with had it and it was only slight. Get him trying to do side to side movement though... yeah, he had serious problems.

But damn, this could really destroy his career. The year after the Broncos last Superbowl, Terrel Davis was making a tackle on a player that intercepted the ball. One of our offensive linemen rolled on the ground and caught the side of Davis's knee... and it was never the same again. He took a couple tries coming back, but it never worked out. That was in the 2000 - 2001 season, an in an interview just a couple years ago when asked about his knee, he said, "sometimes, I can't even walk."

Shannahan of all people should have known that when it was obvious there were problems by half time in that last game. He was the head coach at the time then too for the Broncos.

yup yup, and I was listening to ESPN yesterday and they had a doctor they use called Kaplan who is a world expert on ACL injuries (just like Andrews RG's doctor) and he said that 6-8 months is possible but highly optimistic since one third of all athletes who have this type of reconstruction surgery never get back on the field....now that is scary.

I obviously hate the Redskins but I love Rg3.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by CowboysFan

yup yup, and I was listening to ESPN yesterday and they had a doctor they use called Kaplan who is a world expert on ACL injuries (just like Andrews RG's doctor) and he said that 6-8 months is possible but highly optimistic since one third of all athletes who have this type of reconstruction surgery never get back on the field....now that is scary.

I obviously hate the Redskins but I love Rg3.

I like RG3 a lot too. Never really had a beef with the redskins, though my team isn't a division rival of theirs either.

People are more optimistic about that injury these days because Adrian Peterson didn't miss a lot of time, cme back relatively quickly all things considered and is being considered for league MVP.

Maybe technology for injuries like that has gotten a lot better since the Terrel Davis days... I don't think we are that far away from seeing the day where someone in the NFL plays with a REPLACED knee.

Once you lose a knee like that, it's gonna be a problem the rest of your life. Even if he is back, there is usually a psychological damage that takes place for several months after that. Most who have had a serious injury tends to favor it and be protective of it long after it is healed. I was like that for a couple when I'd get into physical activities and avoid letting anything near it when first getting back into it.

Peterson went all out though.

Hate to see that happen in someone's rookie year with the sky high potential this guy has for a career.