[phaytal]

Originally Posted by TTTTebowAndTheJets

since when did "cover 2" become "prevent"... those are two vastly different things.

Since, forever?

In traditional Cover 2 schemes the free safety (FS) and strong safety (SS) have deep responsibilities, each guarding half (1/2) of the field. Cover 2 can be run from any seven-man defensive fronts such as the 3-4 and the 4-3.

Teams that play Cover 2 shells usually ascribe to the "bend-but-don't-break" philosophy, preferring to keep offensive players in front of them for short gains while limiting long passes. This is in stark contrast to a more aggressive Cover 1 type scheme which leaves the offensive team's wide receivers in single man-to-man coverage with only one deep helper.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by phaytal

Let's go ahead and look at Tebow's highlights for those games. Here is the first 55 minutes of the Tebow led offense against the Jets:



Only 7 3-and-outs, and 8 punts. Pretty standard for Tebow. He redefined shitty quarterback play.

Now here is the first 55 minutes of the Tebow led offense against the Cutler-less Bears, before Marion Barber so graciously gave us the game:



Again, another 7 3-and-outs, plus a 4-and out. But this time, on top of his 8 punts, he added a pick and a lost fumble. Rock solid job of shitting the bed, Tim.

But, but, but... the Denver defense didn't carry Tebow! He engineered comebacks!!



What a fucking joke.

Your post has nothing to do with what was being discussed. Yes, 3 and outs running the BS offense that McCoy called. Near the end of the 4th Q, they spread the field out and went TD, FG, FG.

See if you notice any commonality in the actual play by play on those 3 drives:

1st and 10 at DEN 37 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to L.Ball to DEN 43 for 6 yards (T.Jennings).
2nd and 4 at DEN 43 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to L.Ball to CHI 47 for 10 yards (L.Briggs).
1st and 10 at CHI 47 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short middle to J.Johnson to CHI 39 for 8 yards (B.Urlacher).
2nd and 2 at CHI 39 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to J.Johnson pushed ob at CHI 36 for 3 yards (C.Tillman).
1st and 10 at CHI 36 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep middle to M.Willis to CHI 17 for 19 yards (L.Briggs).
1st and 10 at CHI 17 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short middle to D.Thomas to CHI 10 for 7 yards (D.Moore).
2nd and 3 at CHI 10 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to D.Thomas for 10 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

1st and 10 at DEN 20 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to E.Decker ran ob at DEN 29 for 9 yards.
2nd and 1 at DEN 29 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to L.Ball to DEN 40 for 11 yards (C.Tillman).
1st and 10 at DEN 40 T.Tebow spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2nd and 10 at DEN 40 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to M.Willis ran ob at CHI 41 for 19 yards.
1st and 10 at CHI 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short right to D.Thomas.
2nd and 10 at CHI 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to L.Ball.
3rd and 10 at CHI 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles left end ran ob at CHI 41 for no gain.
4th and 10 at CHI 41 M.Prater 59 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-B.Colquitt.

1st and 10 at DEN 34 Direction change to 34 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete deep left to M.Willis.
2nd and 10 at DEN 34 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to W.McGahee to DEN 36 for 2 yards (M.Toeaina).
3rd and 8 at DEN 36 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to D.Thomas to DEN 46 for 10 yards (T.Jennings).
1st and 10 at DEN 46 (Shotgun) T.Tebow sacked at DEN 44 for -2 yards (S.Paea).
2nd and 12 at DEN 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep right to D.Thomas to CHI 40 for 16 yards (Z.Bowman).
1st and 10 at CHI 40 (Shotgun) W.McGahee left guard to CHI 39 for 1 yard (B.Urlacher).
2nd and 9 at CHI 39 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles up the middle to CHI 34 for 5 yards (B.Urlacher).
Timeout #1 by DEN at 09:23.
3rd and 4 at CHI 34 (Shotgun) T.Tebow left tackle to CHI 33 for 1 yard (A.Okoye).
Timeout #2 by CHI at 08:40.
4th and 3 at CHI 33 M.Prater 51 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-B.Colquitt.

Or how about the drive in the Jets game:

1st and 10 at DEN 5 Direction Change. (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to E.Royal pushed ob at DEN 13 for 8 yards (D.Revis).
2nd and 2 at DEN 13 T.Tebow right tackle to DEN 28 for 15 yards (E.Smith).
1st and 10 at DEN 28 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to D.Thomas pushed ob at DEN 37 for 9 yards (A.Cromartie).
2nd and 1 at DEN 37 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete deep left to D.Thomas.
3rd and 1 at DEN 37 (Shotgun) T.Tebow right guard to DEN 44 for 7 yards (D.Revis; E.Smith).
1st and 10 at DEN 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles right end to NYJ 47 for 9 yards (M.Dixon).
2nd and 1 at NYJ 47 (Shotgun) T.Tebow up the middle to NYJ 44 for 3 yards (J.Mauga).
1st and 10 at NYJ 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to D.Thomas.
2nd and 10 at NYJ 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep left to D.Rosario to NYJ 26 for 18 yards (E.Smith).
1st and 10 at NYJ 26 L.Ball up the middle to NYJ 23 for 3 yards (D.Harris).
2nd and 7 at NYJ 23 (Shotgun) T.Tebow up the middle to NYJ 20 for 3 yards (S.Pouha).
3rd and 4 at NYJ 20 (Shotgun) T.Tebow left end for 20 yards, TOUCHDOWN.

One thing that the play by play doesn't show is that in these shotgun formations, the offense was spread out with 3,4 and 5 receiver sets which stretched the defenses.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by TTTTebowAndTheJets

since when did "cover 2" become "prevent"... those are two vastly different things.

Prevent defense = drop back into coverage, let things happen in front of you, don't give up the big play.

What Urlacher said = "single safety deep and only started relenting yards when they switched to their patented Cover-2 look late in the game while trying to protect a 10-0 fourth-quarter lead."

Like Phaytal says.... "bend but don't break." Bites teams time and time again. ESPECIALLY with Tebow. I already gave him props for that, but it is what it is. That's his secret. The gimmick behind the phenominon known as Tebow's career year.

Sounds pretty much the same to me. Urlacher admitted they changed things up and let Tebow off the hook. It cost them the game.

What the hell would he know about what was going on on their sidelines and on the field?

I know you wanna believe Tebow single handedly ripped the game out of Chicago's hands with magic, fire in his eyes, and lightning bolts from his ass. Fact is, the secred to Tebow's 4th quarter "magic" is prevent defenses (or defenses that do the same thing but are called something else.) Again I say, only ONE team didn't make that mistake, and they beat the Tebow led broncos 7 to 3.

Does it really matter anymore? No matter how much is said nobody going to change each other minds about Tebow. The so called Tebow nuts or so called haters.

[phaytal]

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by phaytal

Since, forever?

In traditional Cover 2 schemes the free safety (FS) and strong safety (SS) have deep responsibilities, each guarding half (1/2) of the field. Cover 2 can be run from any seven-man defensive fronts such as the 3-4 and the 4-3.

Teams that play Cover 2 shells usually ascribe to the "bend-but-don't-break" philosophy, preferring to keep offensive players in front of them for short gains while limiting long passes. This is in stark contrast to a more aggressive Cover 1 type scheme which leaves the offensive team's wide receivers in single man-to-man coverage with only one deep helper.

Cover 2 is a standard zone defense that teams have used for years THROUGH OUT games. To call it a "prevent defense" is borderline stupidity. ALL defenses have inherent strengths and weaknesses, from Cover 0, to Cover 1, Cover 2, Cover 3, Cover 4, etc. The Bears run a variation of Cover 2 called the Tampa 2. It's been their base defense for years. Lovie Smith picked it up from Tony Dungee, who was the innovator of the Tampa2

From Wiki:

The Tampa 2 is an American football defensive strategy popularized by (and thus named after) the Tampa Bay Buccaneers National Football League (NFL) team in the mid 1990s-early 2000s. The Tampa 2 is typically employed out of a 4-3 defensive alignment, which consists of four linemen, three linebackers, two cornerbacks, and two safeties. The defense is similar to a Cover 2 defense, except the middle linebacker drops into a deep middle coverage for a Cover 3 when he reads a pass play.[1]

The term rose to popularity due to the installation and excellent execution of this defensive scheme by then-head coach Tony Dungy and defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin.

The roots of the Tampa 2 system actually are in the Steel Curtain days of Pittsburgh football. "My philosophy is really out of the 1975 Pittsburgh Steelers playbook,” said Dungy during media interviews while at Super Bowl XLI. “That is why I have to laugh when I hear 'Tampa 2'. Chuck Noll and Bud Carson — that is where it came from, I changed very little.”[2] Lovie Smith mentions having played the system in junior high school during the 1970s, though Carson introduced the idea of moving the middle linebacker into coverage. Carson's system became especially effective with the Steelers' addition of aggressive and athletic middle linebacker Jack Lambert.[3]

After Dungy became head coach of the Indianapolis Colts and Lovie Smith (linebackers coach in Tampa from 1996–2000) became head coach of the Chicago Bears, they installed the Tampa 2 in their respective teams. During the 2005 NFL season, the Buccaneers, still under defensive coordinator Kiffin, ranked first in the league in fewest total yards allowed, Smith's Bears ranked number two, and Dungy's Colts ranked eleventh.[4] By 2006, the Buffalo Bills, Minnesota Vikings, Kansas City Chiefs, and Detroit Lions had also adopted the defense. In college football, Gene Chizik is among the coaches that successfully implemented the Tampa 2.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

Prevent defense = drop back into coverage, let things happen in front of you, don't give up the big play.

What Urlacher said = "single safety deep and only started relenting yards when they switched to their patented Cover-2 look late in the game while trying to protect a 10-0 fourth-quarter lead."

Like Phaytal says.... "bend but don't break." Bites teams time and time again. ESPECIALLY with Tebow. I already gave him props for that, but it is what it is. That's his secret. The gimmick behind the phenominon known as Tebow's career year.

Sounds pretty much the same to me. Urlacher admitted they changed things up and let Tebow off the hook. It cost them the game.

What the hell would he know about what was going on on their sidelines and on the field?

I know you wanna believe Tebow single handedly ripped the game out of Chicago's hands with magic, fire in his eyes, and lightning bolts from his ass. Fact is, the secred to Tebow's 4th quarter "magic" is prevent defenses (or defenses that do the same thing but are called something else.) Again I say, only ONE team didn't make that mistake, and they beat the Tebow led broncos 7 to 3.

What you are missing is that there is a big difference between Cover2/Tampa2's "bend but don't break" and actual "prevent defense", which is drop EVERYBODY deep with soft coverage and keep stuff in front of you.

As I said to Phaytal, all defenses have inherent weaknesses that can be exploited. A weakness of cover 1 is that you have a single safety trying to cover the entire deep part of the field. Send WRs on deep routes down both sides and the Safety can't cover them both. That will leave you with 1 on 1 coverage on at least one of the deep routes. Gets really hairy when a team runs 4 verticals. Another weakness of cover 1 is that each DB is basically on an island. If he gets beaten, it opens up YAC.

hell, educate yourself on the strengths/weaknesses of each defense here:

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

What you are missing is that there is a big difference between Cover2/Tampa2's "bend but don't break" and actual "prevent defense", which is drop EVERYBODY deep with soft coverage and keep stuff in front of you.

As I said to Phaytal, all defenses have inherent weaknesses that can be exploited. A weakness of cover 1 is that you have a single safety trying to cover the entire deep part of the field. Send WRs on deep routes down both sides and the Safety can't cover them both. That will leave you with 1 on 1 coverage on at least one of the deep routes. Gets really hairy when a team runs 4 verticals. Another weakness of cover 1 is that each DB is basically on an island. If he gets beaten, it opens up YAC.

hell, educate yourself on the strengths/weaknesses of each defense here:

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

...and what you are missing here, is that they backed off, let Tebow think, and let him work.

If it will make you happier to NOT call it prevent, then we won't call it that. But my point stands. Chicago changed up. They stopped attacking Tebow, and gave him room to work after they haven't done that all day. Stupid move against Tebow and the Bears should have known it by then after team after team made the same mistake. dude's instincts are to tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. get him scrambling into your containment schemes, and chances are, you got him for minimal gain, or an incomplete.

It's the secret behind tebow's final 5 minute magic.

Urlacher suggested they backed off. Take your argument up with him.

[JET'S_my_name]

Wow this turned into a mess of a thread.

Why are people arguing over a game/games that were won? Who cares if it was or wasn't prevent defense. Whatever it was, it clearly didn't work since the broncos won.

[Dennis]

Originally Posted by Backup QB

Urlacher "admitted it"?

Let me school you on the concept of an admission. It benefits Urlacher to make up an excuse. If Urlacher had "admitted" to playing normal defense while getting schooled, then that qualifies as an admission. An excuse is not an admission.

But furthermore, who's fault is it that the vaunted Bears D and coaching staff played prevent, if that is what in fact happened? They knew very well that the 4th quarter was Tebow Time. Should have smartened up. Only when Tebow is the QB do you hear such absurdities as, "the other team was in prevent, therefore the win doesn't count."

Sure the wins count.

You are missing the point.

TEAMS STOPPED GOING INTO "PREVENTS" AT THE ENDS OF GAMES AGAINST DENVER AND SUDDENLY TEBOW WENT FROM 7-1 TO 1-4.

No more "Tebow time," or "miracle comebacks," or anything else. They contained him in the pocket - not blitzing but keeping the running lanes shut down - and forced him to throw. At receivers that they kept tight coverage on.

Because Tebow can't throw worth a damn, Denver lost games.

The losses count too...

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

...and what you are missing here, is that they backed off, let Tebow think, and let him work.

If it will make you happier to NOT call it prevent, then we won't call it that. But my point stands. Chicago changed up. They stopped attacking Tebow, and gave him room to work after they haven't done that all day. Stupid move against Tebow and the Bears should have known it by then after team after team made the same mistake. dude's instincts are to tuck it and run at the first sign of trouble. get him scrambling into your containment schemes, and chances are, you got him for minimal gain, or an incomplete.

It's the secret behind tebow's final 5 minute magic.

Urlacher suggested they backed off. Take your argument up with him.

You obviously didn't watch the game, or you have a very faulty memory. The Bears didn't mount a hard rush against Tebow. It was more like a mush rush to try and contain him.

The secret to the 4th q comebacks really is that Denver spread the field and gave the defense little choice but to try and cover everyone.

Go back and look at the last drive against the Jets. They faced the same problem. Do you go with a "heavy" package, with run stopping LBs to keep Tebow from running ? Or do you go with a nickle/dime package and play coverage ?

It's the same problem that other teams are facing now when they play Washington and San Fran. You can try and score points and argue that RG3 and Kaep are better passers than Tebow, or faster runners. So F'ing what ? Peyton Manning is a better passer than Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco. That doesn't mean that Flacco and Ryan are bad, or that they can't beat a lot of teams in the NFL.

[Backup QB]

Originally Posted by JET'S_my_name

Wow this turned into a mess of a thread.

Why are people arguing over a game/games that were won? Who cares if it was or wasn't prevent defense. Whatever it was, it clearly didn't work since the broncos won.

Because when it's Tebow, there is a difference between winning and winning when the defense is playing a defense acceptable to his detractors. There is a checklist of criteria that validates a win by a Tebow-led team:

- His team's defense must allow more than 25 points
- Opposing defense must not play prevent
- Kicker is not allowed to make game winning FGs
- Completion % must be 60+%
- Yards after catch (YAC) by his receivers don't count towards Tebow's passing yardage
- The score at the end of 55 minutes is the final score
- The stat line at the end of 55 minutes is the final stat line
- Turnovers commited in the 4th quarter by the opposing team invalidate Tebow's win
- Tebow's rushing yards are irrelevant

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Demosthenes9

You obviously didn't watch the game, or you have a very faulty memory. The Bears didn't mount a hard rush against Tebow. It was more like a mush rush to try and contain him.

Yep, containment schemes, that's exactly what was stopping Tebow, and when they quit doing it by running the bend but not break mentality, it cost them.

It's the same problem that other teams are facing now when they play Washington and San Fran. You can try and score points and argue that RG3 and Kaep are better passers than Tebow, or faster runners. So F'ing what ? Peyton Manning is a better passer than Matt Ryan or Joe Flacco. That doesn't mean that Flacco and Ryan are bad, or that they can't beat a lot of teams in the NFL.

Whadda ya mean, so effing what? THAT's all the difference in the world. The difference and why that style of a game will work with RGIII and not Tebow. One can throw, the other can not. Spread option isn't going to accomplish a thing if your quarterback can't throw worth a shit. That is why the skins are going all in on RG3, and Tebow is on the bench.

When you say Manning is better than Ryan or Flacco, that is true, but it isn't as if those other guys are scrubs. If Manning is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10, that would put Ryan at about an 8 and Flacco at about a 7. When you say Griffin or Kaep are better than Tebow, it's like saying a 6 is better than a .5. (Half a shitty QB since he is actually a FB playing out of position.) A .5, who is currently sitting behind a 1 (or 2) on the bench.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Backup QB

Because when it's Tebow, there is a difference between winning and winning when the defense is playing a defense acceptable to his detractors. There is a checklist of criteria that validates a win by a Tebow-led team:

- His team's defense must allow more than 25 points
- Opposing defense must not play prevent
- Kicker is not allowed to make game winning FGs
- Completion % must be 60+%
- Yards after catch (YAC) by his receivers don't count towards Tebow's passing yardage
- The score at the end of 55 minutes is the final score
- The stat line at the end of 55 minutes is the final stat line
- Turnovers commited in the 4th quarter by the opposing team invalidate Tebow's win
- Tebow's rushing yards are irrelevant

...and here is the criteria if you are a Tebowner.

-he must get the credit for the wins.
-If defense plays good, it is only because Tebow "inspired" them.
-Receivers dropped all his passes.
-Coaches kept making bad calls
-Offensive line can't block
-Coming in DEAD LAST in almost all major passing stats is meaningless
-pay no attention to lousy third down conversions.
-pay no attention to leading the league in 3 and outs... it's someone elses fault.
-nobody plays prevent against Tebow, he's just that damn good for 5 minutes.
-when all else fails, try to bait people into a personal pissing match.

[Backup QB]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

Yep, containment schemes, that's exactly what was stopping Tebow, and when they quit doing it by running the bend but not break mentality, it cost them.



Whadda ya mean, so effing what? THAT's all the difference in the world. The difference and why that style of a game will work with RGIII and not Tebow. One can throw, the other can not. Spread option isn't going to accomplish a thing if your quarterback can't throw worth a shit. That is why the skins are going all in on RG3, and Tebow is on the bench.

When you say Manning is better than Ryan or Flacco, that is true, but it isn't as if those other guys are scrubs. If Manning is a 10 on a scale of 1 to 10, that would put Ryan at about an 8 and Flacco at about a 7. When you say Griffin or Kaep are better than Tebow, it's like saying a 6 is better than a .5. (Half a shitty QB since he is actually a FB playing out of position.) A .5, who is currently sitting behind a 1 (or 2) on the bench.

At work you do what your boss asks you to do. As an Army officer, I can perform many different functions. There are times when I am given command. There are times when I support a superior officer on the executive staff. There are times when I am a liaison officer to some higher headquarters, etc...

Tebow was not asked to be a gunslinger, so he wasn't. He was asked to protect the football. Just like I am not always asked to command, but I can do it, Tebow was not asked to throw the ball, yet he can do it.

[Backup QB]

...and here is the criteria if you are a Tebowner.

-he must get the credit for the wins. All QBs get credit for W-L
-If defense plays good, it is only because Tebow "inspired" them. They showed a remarkable improvement under Tebow, not sure why
-Receivers dropped all his passes. Not all but some. All QBs suffer from dropped passes
-Coaches kept making bad calls This is true
-Offensive line can't block He had enough time to throw
-Coming in DEAD LAST in almost all major passing stats is meaningless See "Coaching" bullet
-pay no attention to lousy third down conversions. A meaning less stat if you win the game
-pay no attention to leading the league in 3 and outs... it's someone elses fault. A meaningless stat if you win the game
-nobody plays prevent against Tebow, he's just that damn good for 5 minutes.Prove otherwise
-when all else fails, try to bait people into a personal pissing match. that is your speciality

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Backup QB

At work you do what your boss asks you to do. As an Army officer, I can perform many different functions. There are times when I am given command. There are times when I support a superior officer on the executive staff. There are times when I am a liaison officer to some higher headquarters, etc...

Tebow was not asked to be a gunslinger, so he wasn't. He was asked to protect the football. Just like I am not always asked to command, but I can do it, Tebow was not asked to throw the ball, yet he can do it.

No, he was not asked to throw the ball, because the coach knew he would shot put it into the parking lot and waste the play.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Backup QB

...and here is the criteria if you are a Tebowner.

-he must get the credit for the wins. All QBs get credit for W-L
-If defense plays good, it is only because Tebow "inspired" them. They showed a remarkable improvement under Tebow, not sure why
-Receivers dropped all his passes. Not all but some. All QBs suffer from dropped passes
-Coaches kept making bad calls This is true
-Offensive line can't block He had enough time to throw
-Coming in DEAD LAST in almost all major passing stats is meaningless See "Coaching" bullet
-pay no attention to lousy third down conversions. A meaning less stat if you win the game
-pay no attention to leading the league in 3 and outs... it's someone elses fault. A meaningless stat if you win the game
-nobody plays prevent against Tebow, he's just that damn good for 5 minutes.Prove otherwise
-when all else fails, try to bait people into a personal pissing match. that is your speciality

See? I didn't even have to exaggerate, he backed every F-ing one up!!!! keep the excuses coming, you'll have him in back on the field in no time!!!

[Backup QB]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

See? I didn't even have to exaggerate, he backed every F-ing one up!!!!

If you read my comments you will see that I agreed with you on several of your bullets.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

[Demosthenes9]

Originally Posted by Backup QB

Because when it's Tebow, there is a difference between winning and winning when the defense is playing a defense acceptable to his detractors. There is a checklist of criteria that validates a win by a Tebow-led team:

- His team's defense must allow more than 25 points
- Opposing defense must not play prevent
- Kicker is not allowed to make game winning FGs
- Completion % must be 60+%
- Yards after catch (YAC) by his receivers don't count towards Tebow's passing yardage
- The score at the end of 55 minutes is the final score
- The stat line at the end of 55 minutes is the final stat line
- Turnovers commited in the 4th quarter by the opposing team invalidate Tebow's win
- Tebow's rushing yards are irrelevant

Doesn't count if played against Cover 2 or Tampa 2 either, as those are "prevent" defenses