[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by JFjets

Easy. He's not using his natural throwing motion, the one that made him one of the elite QB's in Florida high school football history, and the one that made him one of the most elite passing QB's in NCAA history. All the so-called "experts" said he just had to change his throwing motion or he could never be successful in the NFL. So he has tried to, and since it is so difficult to change something that is so natural (and so critical to one's craft, in this instance), he has struggled, with his brain trying to do his "new" motion and his muscles trying to do his "old/natural" motion, resulting in a frankenstein mish-mash throwing motion that has sometimes been very inaccurate. Some guy named Joe Montana said he never should have tried to change his throwing motion, he should have stuck with the motion he knew and had success with in college. If I was Tebow's coach right now, I'd tell him to forget everything he tried to re-learn about throwing and just go back to how he used to sling it. It's still in his muscle memory. Who cares how it looks as long as the ball gets to the target. Asking a successful QB to change his motion, in a short period of time, with success, is like asking Snoop Dog to sing Opera with success, in a short period of time. Ain't going to happen.

Not sure I agree with that. Many are saying he reverted back to what worked in high school and college. to make it as far as he did professionally, I'm not surprised to see that he was a really good player in high school, and I think he got away with his throwing in college because he played with a lot of really good players. 10 out of his 11 starters made the NFL. Most of the guys he was throwing to were a lot better than the guys defending them, so it wasn't as big of an issue in college. Combine that with his ability to run... his game worked frighteningly well agaisnt a lot of guys who are quite frankly selling insurance now.

I haven't seen ay definitive stats, but I have watched nearly every Broncos game this year and Decker and Thomas have still dropped some balls. And McGahee had a horrendous drop last week.

By the way, what is Sanchez' excuse for low accuracy? He has a pretty nice "motion". You've already ruled out the possibility of receivers sharing any large part in the blame, so what's his problem?

I've heard the "dropped passes" argument before. But when I looked at the stats around the league, the league average last year was around 6% for dropped passes around the league. The broncos... were at 6.5%. Basically a half a percentage point... or 1 pass per 200 attempts. The Patriots (who ironically lost the SB on a dropped pass by Welker) finished with the best at 3.4%. So even if we were to give Tebow the benefit of the doubt and gave him the receiving corps that had the best drop percentage... that would take Tebow's percentage from 46.5 to 49.9. STILL under 50% and STILL last in the league. If we gave Tebow ALL 6.5% of the drops and the receivers didn't drop a single one, that would put him at 53%, which is still toward the bottom of the league and would have just edged Gabbert out. (..and that is WITHOUT giving the drops back to Gabbert.) Now, that 6.5 DOES go for the whole season with Orton starting the first 4 1/2 games, but you're kidding yourself if you think his passes weren't dropped.

My point is, when looking at the league average of dropped passes, Tim Tebow didn't see much more of those than anyone else. I also bring up what his percentage would be if I gave every drop back to him and counted it as a catch to point out that even with that factored in, (giving nobody that boost) he's still near the bottom fo the league. It doesn't account for his low percentage.

Also want to point out that while Thomas and Decker are still dropping passes (which are still on par with the other league leading receivers who seem to go unnoticed with drops,) Manning's completion percentage over the SEASON is close to 70%. Give him his drops back, we're talking 75% range. This is with his wobblers and noodle arm people are complaining about and all.

Nope, it isn't dropped passes keeping Tebow's percentages down. That half a percent from the league average isn't going to make a big difference when he barely threw the ball more than 200, maybe 300 times to begin with. (one game had only 8 attempts completing just 2.) Especially considering through the first 3 quarters, his completion percentage was around 33%, and got built back up to 46 with 4th quarter magic. (and prevent defenses.)

Your argument that his throwing motion might be fubar because someone has him thinking about it too much was a much better argument.

[JFjets]

Not sure I agree with that. Many are saying he reverted back to what worked in high school and college. to make it as far as he did professionally, I'm not surprised to see that he was a really good player in high school, and I think he got away with his throwing in college because he played with a lot of really good players. 10 out of his 11 starters made the NFL. Most of the guys he was throwing to were a lot better than the guys defending them, so it wasn't as big of an issue in college.

Good grief, do the excuses never stop? Out of all the receivers Tebow ever threw to, only 2 are doing anything special in the NFL - Harvin and Hernandez. The last year they were both there, 2008, they caught a combined almost 25% of Tebow's passes. Harvin was gone by 2009, and Hernandez became Tebow's go-to receiver, getting more passes than in 2008, but less overall than he and Harvin combined in 2008. He caught approximately 21% of Tebow's passes in 2009, causing Tebow's completion percentage to drop....oh wait, I mean Tebow's completion % went up to the highest of his career, to 67.8%, which was 3.5% higher than the previous year when he had both Harvin and Hernandez. In 2009, Hernandez accounted for a whopping 5 of the Gators' 35 TD's.

Combine that with his ability to run... his game worked frighteningly well agaisnt a lot of guys who are quite frankly selling insurance now.

AND a lot of guys who are playing in the NFL currently.

I've heard the "dropped passes" argument before. But when I looked at the stats around the league, the league average last year was around 6% for dropped passes around the league.

I believe the Broncos were 2nd worst in the league last year for dropped passes, right after the Browns. Try to rationalize it all you want, but the facts are the facts.

Manning's completion percentage over the SEASON is close to 70%. Give him his drops back, we're talking 75% range. This is with his wobblers and noodle arm people are complaining about and all.

Tell me what the stat is for the average distance of Peyton's attempted throws this year compared to the average distance of Tebow's attempted throws last year. Get back with us on that. I haven't seen the stat, but my guess is that Tebow's was WAY longer, considering how many dump's and quick slants Peyton has thrown this year, and the fact that Tebow was near the top of the heap in that category last year, league wide. Then try to tell me how those short throws Manning is throwing are actually tougher than all the long ones Tebow attempted. I'll be waiting.

Your argument that his throwing motion might be fubar because someone has him thinking about it too much was a much better argument.

Pretty sure I said this is the primary reason.

[phaytal]

Originally Posted by JFjets

Zing.

Thank you. Now comes the part where the haters claim that you are saying Tebow is as accomplished a thrower as every QB whose picture you posted, when in fact neither you, nor I, said anything of the sort. Oh wait, phaytal already did....

So predictable.

You are asking to be ridiculed when you make a comparison, any comparison, between Tim Tebow and Drew Brees.

One is widely regarded as the best pure passer in the NFL. The other is almost unanimously considered the worst passer in the NFL.

One is a Super Bowl champion, Super Bowl MVP, league MVP, and has shattered countless records. The other is a bench warmer behind a bad quarterback.

Most teams in the league would probably give up a 1st and 2nd round pick for one of them, even though he is 33 years old. The other was traded for a soft pretzel and tall boy of Miller High Life, and is worth less than that now even though he is only 25 years old.

So yes, I will absolutely be predictable and call you out when you make asinine comparisons like that.

[Awesomo 3000]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

Okay, assuming these area all whacky throwing motions and it doesn't actually matter.... then why does Tebow struggle to complete passes?

...and don't tell mit it is on the receivers. People blamed Thomas and Decker, but now they are among the league leaders with a QB that can actually hit them.

I really hope you say it is because of Manning, because not only is that the truth, but that would be forcing you to admit the QB is the difference.

This is why Tebow is on the bench. if you want to show pics of others throwing, then fine, but it doesn't get more awkward than it is in the video I posted above. So if that isn't the issue, what is it then?

You watch the Broncos, right...? Decker and Thomas were pulling the same crap they pulled last year, for the first several games. It's only in the last few games that they finally started catching balls better. I guess they just needed more time to "recover" from their trauma with Tim, right...?

[Awesomo 3000]

Originally Posted by phaytal

You are asking to be ridiculed when you make a comparison, any comparison, between Tim Tebow and Drew Brees.

One is widely regarded as the best pure passer in the NFL. The other is almost unanimously considered the worst passer in the NFL.

One is a Super Bowl champion, Super Bowl MVP, league MVP, and has shattered countless records. The other is a bench warmer behind a bad quarterback.

Most teams in the league would probably give up a 1st and 2nd round pick for one of them, even though he is 33 years old. The other was traded for a soft pretzel and tall boy of Miller High Life, and is worth less than that now even though he is only 25 years old.

So yes, I will absolutely be predictable and call you out when you make asinine comparisons like that.

1. Somebody criticizes/insults Tebow's position of football while he throws.

2. Person provides ridiculous amount of pictures showing that all of the league's "top" quarterbacks do it sometimes.

3. Goalposts shift. Tebow sucks! He's not Brees? Are you stupid?!?! Brees is tons better than Tebow! Derp!!!

[phaytal]

If I were one of those 'top' quarterbacks and you compared anything I did on the football field to something Tim Tebow does, I'm quite sure I would be insulted, because that would mean I was terrible at something.

[Backup QB]

Originally Posted by Bannon

Originally Posted by phaytal

There is exactly zero resemblance between Tebow's and Brees' throwing motions.

BAM! In yo face!

[Backup QB]

[Backup QB]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

Okay, assuming these area all whacky throwing motions and it doesn't actually matter.... then why does Tebow struggle to complete passes?

...and don't tell mit it is on the receivers. People blamed Thomas and Decker, but now they are among the league leaders with a QB that can actually hit them.

I really hope you say it is because of Manning, because not only is that the truth, but that would be forcing you to admit the QB is the difference.

This is why Tebow is on the bench. if you want to show pics of others throwing, then fine, but it doesn't get more awkward than it is in the video I posted above. So if that isn't the issue, what is it then?

That is not the topic of this thread.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by JFjets

Tell me what the stat is for the average distance of Peyton's attempted throws this year compared to the average distance of Tebow's attempted throws last year. Get back with us on that. I haven't seen the stat, but my guess is that Tebow's was WAY longer, considering how many dump's and quick slants Peyton has thrown this year, and the fact that Tebow was near the top of the heap in that category last year, league wide. Then try to tell me how those short throws Manning is throwing are actually tougher than all the long ones Tebow attempted. I'll be waiting.

.

Even if that particular stat was better than Manning's, so friggin what? Tebow was dead last or close to it everywhere else and most of the time he was lucky to get more than 150 yards passing. He didn't rack up points, and the Broncos punted the ball A LOT because he couldn't move the chains. Why? Because he couldn't throw.

Like it or not, his inability to complete passes went hand in hand with the three and outs, low 3rd down conversion percentage, and low scoring. THAT is what is killing his career. Go ahead and blame it on someone else if you wish, and go ahead and parade all the college stat sheets you want... NOBODY actually getting paid by an NFL team is fooled, and THAT is why he's on the bench.

Time to be honest about why he is on the bench or nothing will get solved.

[Bellows1]

Interesting, not a lot of difference until the follow through. I think he tries to throw too hard most of the time.

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[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Awesomo 3000

1. Somebody criticizes/insults Tebow's position of football while he throws.

2. Person provides ridiculous amount of pictures showing that all of the league's "top" quarterbacks do it sometimes.

3. Goalposts shift. Tebow sucks! He's not Brees? Are you stupid?!?! Brees is tons better than Tebow! Derp!!!

Go look at the video I posted in the second or third post in this thread of Tebow throwing the ball like a Javelin. Post me one picture of ANY of those QBs pulling the ball way behind their heads behind their shoulder blades like Tebow did in the middle of the throw AFTER he reached back all the way to the end zone behind him with it... then you might have a point.

Go ahead, find a pic like that.

[Cellar-door]

Originally Posted by Bellows1

Interesting, not a lot of difference until the follow through. I think he tries to throw too hard most of the time.

There is a ton of difference.
Look at the angle of their bodies,
look at how much tighter to his body Brady keeps the ball.
Look at how Tebow drops the front shoulder.
Look at how the ball disappears behind Tebow's head as he cocks it back higher and farther than Brady.
Look at how compact and quick Brady's motion is compared to Tebow.
Look at how Balanced Brady remains, then look at Tebow with his top half way ahead of his legs.
One is a very decent quick motion, one is Luis Tiant of the gridiron.

[JFjets]

Even if that particular stat was better than Manning's, so friggin what?

Look, fella', John Elway himself said one reason Tebow didn't have a higher completion % is because such a high percentage of his throws were downfield bombs (I'm paraphrasing), which are, of course, very low % throws, no matter WHICH QB is throwing them. I agree with that 100% as being one of the reasons, along with the receiver drops being one of the reasons. I still believe the primary reason is he's using a throwing motion that is different from the one he's been using for the last decade or more of his life, and that he had all his success with. Can he ever get it straightened out and become comfortable and complete more passes with this new motion? I think he can, but I think it will take time. Will he ever be as comfortable with it as with his old motion? I kind of doubt it.

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Cellar-door

There is a ton of difference.
Look at the angle of their bodies,
look at how much tighter to his body Brady keeps the ball.
Look at how Tebow drops the front shoulder.
Look at how the ball disappears behind Tebow's head as he cocks it back higher and farther than Brady.
Look at how compact and quick Brady's motion is compared to Tebow.
Look at how Balanced Brady remains, then look at Tebow with his top half way ahead of his legs.
One is a very decent quick motion, one is Luis Tiant of the gridiron.

That is perhaps the worst part of his mechanics, the way he pulls that thing way back behind his head between the shoulder blades.

What is THAT!!!

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[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by JFjets

Look, fella', John Elway himself said one reason Tebow didn't have a higher completion % is because such a high percentage of his throws were downfield bombs (I'm paraphrasing), which are, of course, very low % throws, no matter WHICH QB is throwing them. I agree with that 100% as being one of the reasons, along with the receiver drops being one of the reasons. I still believe the primary reason is he's using a throwing motion that is different from the one he's been using for the last decade or more of his life, and that he had all his success with. Can he ever get it straightened out and become comfortable and complete more passes with this new motion? I think he can, but I think it will take time. Will he ever be as comfortable with it as with his old motion? I kind of doubt it.

That can be fixed in an offseason, it's just gonna take a lot of hard work and less time going out and being a celbrity. I get that people need play time, but his career is SERIOUSLY in doubt now.

Just not sold on the idea that they tried to change too much and he still hasn't overcome that by his third season. I'm also not sold that all this mechanical problem is something new. I looked at some old videos of his gator days... honestly his throwing motion doesn't look a whole lot different. I think in the heat of the moment when it is chaotic out there, he's not using what he had been taught over the last couple years, but instead just resorts to instinct and goes back to what worked for him in college.

It is obvious at times that running is his first, second, and third instinct out there and you can see him fighting it. I think that contributes as well as too much time is being spent out there looking for an exit route for running that could be better spent surveying the field of what is going on and finding the open man.

[Bannon]

Originally Posted by Bellows1

Interesting, not a lot of difference until the follow through. I think he tries to throw too hard most of the time.

He clearly does. I think his slow mechanics have caused him to compensate by really loading up velocity, which slows down mechanics more, etc. It's a cycle he's got to break.

Bill Walsh used to work out quarterbacks by seeing what they could while trying to softly float it, on time, to a receiver. He used to have them focus on trying to throw the most perfect spiral they could, without loading up velocity. (This comes from a Phil Simms interview I saw).

[Backup QB]

Originally Posted by Concerned_Citizen

That is perhaps the worst part of his mechanics, the way he pulls that thing way back behind his head between the shoulder blades.

What is THAT!!!

The narrator of your video starts off the commentary by saying...
"Alright kids, this is why Tim Tebow sucks... you know it and I know it... look at his throwing motion on the game-winning touchdown."

Anyone see what's wrong with this?



He sucks, and I will prove it by criticizing his form on a perfectly thrown playoff game-winning 88 yard touchdown pass. Really?

[Bannon]

Originally Posted by Awesomo 3000

1. Somebody criticizes/insults Tebow's position of football while he throws.

2. Person provides ridiculous amount of pictures showing that all of the league's "top" quarterbacks do it sometimes.

3. Goalposts shift. Tebow sucks! He's not Brees? Are you stupid?!?! Brees is tons better than Tebow! Derp!!!

I considered the original question raised by this thread to be whether Tebow was unusual in that the nose of the football points back the other way during the throw.

I pointed out that, counter to what intuition might tell you, a proper technique in throwing has the nose of the ball pointing backwards during the load up phase.

Someone disputed the instructional video I posted, suggesting it was out of date.

I posted conclusive evidence that many quarterbacks in the NFL throw with this style. (By the way -- not all of them do. Peyton does not. Cutler does not. Elway did not).

Now we've gotten off on the 1,000 discussion of Tebow's mechanics, and have apparently stumbled upon the truth that his mechanics are not as good as other NFL quarterbacks.

With poor reasoning, it is not surprise that some have attempted to derail the discussion, suggestion "you can't mention this, and you can't mention this guy, because Tebow is not as good as them."

The whole point is that the nose of the ball does point backwards in a proper throwing technique (at least one major kind).

[Concerned_Citizen]

Originally Posted by Backup QB

The narrator of your video starts off the commentary by saying...
"Alright kids, this is why Tim Tebow sucks... you know it and I know it... look at his throwing motion on the game-winning touchdown."

Anyone see what's wrong with this?



He sucks, and I will prove it by criticizing his form on a perfectly thrown playoff game-winning 88 yard touchdown pass. Really?

That isn't the topic of this thread. (Since you are calling people out on that now.)

We're talking about mechanics. Besides, I knew you or someone would say that and I addressed that at the beginning of the thread.
(He also said the guy covering Thomas was a moron. Only reason it worked, frankly)

Do you disagree with the analyst that he can win superbowls throwing like that? I think it describes pretty well why he has trouble completing passes.

What is your theory? Or are you still gonna base your entire argument on a rare occasion that something went right? Should consider the source... you ARE the guy that thinks Tebow would make Jacksonville a playoff contender. :roll:

I get why you would ignore that really whacky assed throwing motion though. It's the throw only a mother could love. Won't be seeing much more of it though since he's likely not going to have a career much longer if he's still throwing like that and looking like he is having a seizure when doing it.

The Pittsburgh life preserver when Tebowmaniacs cling to the EXTREMELY RARE times something goes right to make their case strikes again to distract us from the real issue. He still can't throw worth a shit.