[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Testaverde

Absolutely! If a D can hold an O as good as the Rams was to 17 points while putting 7 on the board, I don't care at what point in the game they give up those 17 points and score the 7 themselves. Only having to score 13 points on O to win the game is ridiculous. How many games are won when an O scores 13 points? The O only managed to score 3 more points than the D did when the Rams tied the game.

Ok, so you were impressed by the jets D shutting down Denver for 55 misn then allowing a 95 yd TD drive w/ up 3 in the final minutes?

Every game is different, sometimes you need to score 30 and sometimes you need to score 10. If NE's D doesnt' score do you know NE's O wouldn't have scored another TD? They call plays based on situations, feel, score, etc... What we do know is NE had a 17-3 lead in the 4th qtr and the defense blew it then w/ just over a minute left w/ no TOs inside their 20 Brady led one of the greatest drives in SB history. If the O doesn't have that incredible drive the game comes down to a coin flip in OT.

[Testaverde]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Ok, so you were impressed by the jets D shutting down Denver for 55 misn then allowing a 95 yd TD drive w/ up 3 in the final minutes?

Every game is different, sometimes you need to score 30 and sometimes you need to score 10. If NE's D doesnt' score do you know NE's O wouldn't have scored another TD? They call plays based on situations, feel, score, etc... What we do know is NE had a 17-3 lead in the 4th qtr and the defense blew it then w/ just over a minute left w/ no TOs inside their 20 Brady led one of the greatest drives in SB history. If the O doesn't have that incredible drive the game comes down to a coin flip in OT.

Denver's O was not very good, so shutting them down for 55 mins is not the same as shutting down an offense like the Rams. Regardless, I blame the O for the Denver loss, despite the D allowing that last drive. It was the O that gave Denver a TD and failed to score to put the game away.

Maybe NE's O scores if they don't score that TD on D, and maybe they don't. What we do know is that the O only scored 3 more points than what the D did for nearly the whole game. Holding an offense as good as the Rams to 17 points while putting 7 on the board is more than you could ask for. An O only needing to score 11 points to beat a team with an offense as good as the Rams is ridiculous.

How does NE's D get blamed for the Rams tying the game in the 4th, while that last drive with Brady had nothing to do with the Rams D?

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Testaverde

Denver's O was not very good, so shutting them down for 55 mins is not the same as shutting down an offense like the Rams. Regardless, I blame the O for the Denver loss, despite the D allowing that last drive. It was the O that gave Denver a TD and failed to score to put the game away.

Maybe NE's O scores if they don't score that TD on D, and maybe they don't. What we do know is that the O only scored 3 more points than what the D did for nearly the whole game. Holding an offense as good as the Rams to 17 points while putting 7 on the board is more than you could ask for. An O only needing to score 11 points to beat a team with an offense as good as the Rams is ridiculous.

How does NE's D get blamed for the Rams tying the game in the 4th, while that last drive with Brady had nothing to do with the Rams D?

The O deserves their share of blame but the D blew that Denver game allowing a team that can't pass to go 95 yards for the win.

Again, every game plays out doffetenly. That offense was held in checl 2 years earlier in the SB so maybe SB pressure got them? either way, the NE D allowed a histoic comeback to take place becoming the first and only D to blow a 14 pt 4th qtr lead before being rescued by the NE O. The NE O wasn't great most of the game but in winning time they came through, if not we'd be talking much more about the historic collapse today.

[GoPats]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

Nobody is denying the fact the Brady is amazing or has done amazing things. Recently though when the offense has been more centered around him, the Pats have struggled compared to their previous success in the playoffs. The offense looks less crisp and consistent and the defense has played worse. One of the reasons the Pats might be struggling is because Brady has had trouble on connecting on passes down the field and they are attempting less. It does seems as some Pats fans say that the Pats are planning to get a better overall offense. If they can have a respectable run game, that offense becomes even scarier. Remember against us this year they ran the ball down our throat and when we tried to stop to run they abused us in the pass. Part of this is because we had a lack of defensive personel, but you see how a more balanced offense could pick defenses apart like the Ravens, Giants, Steelers, etc.

It's hard to say right now if NE will add to their backfield in the draft. BJGE is gone, and though he wasn't a game-breaker he was very reliable. Lots of people think Ridley will take over as the lead back but I'm not quite sold on him yet. With all the picks they're sitting on, it's possible they'll make a run at Richardson, but that's kind of a longshot I think.

There's no doubt that the offense tends to drop off in terms of production once the playoffs start. If you look at the past few postseason games the Patriots have played, with the exception of Denver, they were up against some pretty damn good defenses... the Ravens and Giants last year, the Jets the year before, and the Ravens in '09.

I think that's just the nature of playoff football though. As much as the 2011 season was an aerial circus (three QBs throwing for 5,000+ yards and a bunch throwing for 4K), it seems like things kind of return to "normal" in the NFL, and defense matters again.

I don't know if the Patriots need a deep threat as much as they just need someone who can get open outside the hash marks in man coverage. The way the Jets, Ravens, and Giants have played them in recent years, they basically just clog up the middle of the field and dare Brady to throw the ball to the sidelines. Keeping defenses honest in coverage is going to be important for them moving forward, or they'll continue to tear through the crappy teams in the league and will come up short in the end.

[GoPats]

Originally Posted by Testaverde

How does NE's D get blamed for the Rams tying the game in the 4th, while that last drive with Brady had nothing to do with the Rams D?

The Pats' defense played an incredible game but had a couple of major breakdowns toward the end of it. The Ricky Proehl TD never should have happened... it was a blown coverage.

Their game-winning drive was more about the Rams' play-calling than their defense, if you ask me. They did send a couple of blitzes but otherwise they sat back in coverage and allowed the Patriots to gain chunks of yardage. I don't think Martz believed for a second (like John Madden) that they'd be that aggressive from their own 17 with just over a minute to go.

[Murrell2878]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

His pre snap read needs to be better, he has to call a better play. Again, he gets so much praise for calling plays when they work- why doesn't he get criticized when they don't? It was an awful job to have 4th down at his own 1 yd line.

Brady did nothing, the ball magically got into the hands of those players.

Delhomme was good, the Pats D was BAD

inept would be turning it over and putting your opponent in great spots. Their O was not inept.

Congrats on 3 great qtrs but when it was winning time what did they do?

Are turnovers part of the game?

21 & 20 pts were not bad point totals.

You are out of control on your criticism of that play. That’s not on Manning. He could have and probably did make the perfect read. He had less than 2 seconds to do anything with the ball.

You give Brady WAY to much credit for that drive.

Delhomme was great.

Their O was inept. They severely under performed and did nothing all game.

They were the reason they had “winning time”. You can’t shut an offense like the Rams down for an entire game. It just didn’t happen. They did a great job while the Offense did nothing all game.

Did the turnover give them great field position and set up points?

They played terrible in both games turning the ball over MULTIPLE times.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Murrell2878

You are out of control on your criticism of that play. That’s not on Manning. He could have and probably did make the perfect read. He had less than 2 seconds to do anything with the ball.

You give Brady WAY to much credit for that drive.

Delhomme was great.

Their O was inept. They severely under performed and did nothing all game.

They were the reason they had “winning time”. You can’t shut an offense like the Rams down for an entire game. It just didn’t happen. They did a great job while the Offense did nothing all game.

Did the turnover give them great field position and set up points?

They played terrible in both games turning the ball over MULTIPLE times.

Nothing is ever his fault, he's only the QB that calls the plays at the line but he only gets credit- NEVER any blame.

Manning doesn't get blame for taking a sack at his 1 to set up the tying FG and Brady gets no credit for leading one of the greatest drives in SB history. Got it.

Delhomme is the greatest QB to ever live, isn't it interesting how delhomme could be so great against that defense yet Peyton could be so brutal weeks earlier?

Great for 3 qtrs but when it was time to win they were a no show.

They didn't play their best but 21 & 20 points is good and on those days it was good enough. I find it comical how you can defend manning so much and bash Brady, you bash Brady for leading his O to 21 & 20 pts yet on average in playoff losses Manning leads his O's to 14 PPG, you can give no credit to Brady for SB winning drives(both of them) and yet offer no blame to Peyton for throwing a SB losing INT for TD.

[Murrell2878]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

Nothing is ever his fault, he's only the QB that calls the plays at the line but he only gets credit- NEVER any blame.

Manning doesn't get blame for taking a sack at his 1 to set up the tying FG and Brady gets no credit for leading one of the greatest drives in SB history. Got it.

Delhomme is the greatest QB to ever live, isn't it interesting how delhomme could be so great against that defense yet Peyton could be so brutal weeks earlier?

Great for 3 qtrs but when it was time to win they were a no show.

They didn't play their best but 21 & 20 points is good and on those days it was good enough. I find it comical how you can defend manning so much and bash Brady, you bash Brady for leading his O to 21 & 20 pts yet on average in playoff losses Manning leads his O's to 14 PPG, you can give no credit to Brady for SB winning drives(both of them) and yet offer no blame to Peyton for throwing a SB losing INT for TD.

You want to blame Manning for the TE missing the block. Do you not realize how stupid that argument is?

So, now you’ve resorted to putting words in my mouth.

Where was the offense for 3 Quarters? If it wasn’t for the defense they get blown out in that game. Why couldn’t the offense get one first down in the 4th Quarter to help the defense out? The offense went 3 & out twice in the 4th quarter. One first down and that last drive isn’t needed. The offense didn’t get the job done – which was par for the course throughout the game.

The two winning drives were not Brady drives. They were either dink and dunks with the plays made by the other players or they got great field position. And both were ended with Vinatieri FG’s. Stop acting like he split coverages and won games with a great TD pass. He didn’t.

[JetBlue]

Originally Posted by GoPats

Their game-winning drive was more about the Rams' play-calling than their defense, if you ask me. They did send a couple of blitzes but otherwise they sat back in coverage and allowed the Patriots to gain chunks of yardage. I don't think Martz believed for a second (like John Madden) that they'd be that aggressive from their own 17 with just over a minute to go.

I remember watching that game thinking Madden had absolutely lost whatever credibility he had left when he said the Pats should run out the clock and go to OT. that's why Belichick is a great coach and Martz is an f'ing imbecile.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by Murrell2878

You want to blame Manning for the TE missing the block. Do you not realize how stupid that argument is?

So, now you’ve resorted to putting words in my mouth.

Where was the offense for 3 Quarters? If it wasn’t for the defense they get blown out in that game. Why couldn’t the offense get one first down in the 4th Quarter to help the defense out? The offense went 3 & out twice in the 4th quarter. One first down and that last drive isn’t needed. The offense didn’t get the job done – which was par for the course throughout the game.

The two winning drives were not Brady drives. They were either dink and dunks with the plays made by the other players or they got great field position. And both were ended with Vinatieri FG’s. Stop acting like he split coverages and won games with a great TD pass. He didn’t.

It's always someone else's fault when manning fails time after time after time. He cannot, under any circumstances, take a sack at the 1 in that situation. He did, he failed, his O failed, it set up a chip shot tying FG and he never saw the ball again and an 8-8 team beat his Colts team in the playoffs.

I am not putting words into your mouth, I am stating what you have said. you do everything you can to absolve Peyton of any blame and everything you can to not give Brady credit. TWO SB winning drives at the gun and in both cases you give credit to othersm peyton throws away the SB and you blame the WR.

The offense wasn't turning it over for 3 qtrs, the D was playing great and the O was making sure not to make the bg mistake but after the D choked the O stepped up and won the game.

If it is so easy to dink and dunk why doesn't peyton do it? the game is about winning, right? it's not about #s so why hasn't he done everything possible to win?

and last I checked Peyton had Vinatieri for the same # of postseasons that Brady had so if it was so easy to just set him to win SBs why wasn't he doing it?

The bottom line is peyton has been a choker, Brady was a great postseason QB. He has been more Peyton-like(while still bringing his team further) in recent postseasons but the first half of his career he was an amazing postseason QB- something Peyton has never been.

Originally Posted by JetBlue

I remember watching that game thinking Madden had absolutely lost whatever credibility he had left when he said the Pats should run out the clock and go to OT. that's why Belichick is a great coach and Martz is an f'ing imbecile.

I disagree w/ you there, that was an incredibly risky spot w/ a 1st year starting QB. I was surprised they went for it rather than play for OT but I guess he knew his D had nothing left and took the chance.

[GoPats]

Originally Posted by Murrell2878

The two winning drives were not Brady drives. They were either dink and dunks with the plays made by the other players or they got great field position. And both were ended with Vinatieri FG’s. Stop acting like he split coverages and won games with a great TD pass. He didn’t.

Interesting, I didn't know Vinatieri won two Super Bowls with 77 and 97 yard field goals. I was under the impression that the offense got him into range both times.

I'll ask the obvious question. Why does it need to be a splitting-the-coverage TD pass when the game is tied?

It's really quite amusing, actually, how you rip Brady to shreds while slurping Manning's nuts. Maybe you'd have more respect for Brady if he threw a pick-six on a potentially game-tying drive in a Super Bowl.

Originally Posted by JetBlue

I remember watching that game thinking Madden had absolutely lost whatever credibility he had left when he said the Pats should run out the clock and go to OT. that's why Belichick is a great coach and Martz is an f'ing imbecile.

I know, right? I remember watching it and saying, "Why the hell would they do that? They're not even supposed to be here, so... go for it."

Both Madden and Pat Summerall were clearly on their collective way out at that point... when you watch the replay of the end of the game, it's almost like Pat fell asleep while Vinatieri's kick was on its way.

If that game had gone to OT, I don't think the Patriots would have won. They were spent defensively and the Rams had a lot of momentum.

[CJLang]

Originally Posted by JetBlue

I remember watching that game thinking Madden had absolutely lost whatever credibility he had left when he said the Pats should run out the clock and go to OT. that's why Belichick is a great coach and Martz is an f'ing imbecile.

Belichik knew that the rams would win the game if they got the ball back.

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by GoPats

It's hard to say right now if NE will add to their backfield in the draft. BJGE is gone, and though he wasn't a game-breaker he was very reliable. Lots of people think Ridley will take over as the lead back but I'm not quite sold on him yet. With all the picks they're sitting on, it's possible they'll make a run at Richardson, but that's kind of a longshot I think.

There's no doubt that the offense tends to drop off in terms of production once the playoffs start. If you look at the past few postseason games the Patriots have played, with the exception of Denver, they were up against some pretty damn good defenses... the Ravens and Giants last year, the Jets the year before, and the Ravens in '09.

I think that's just the nature of playoff football though. As much as the 2011 season was an aerial circus (three QBs throwing for 5,000+ yards and a bunch throwing for 4K), it seems like things kind of return to "normal" in the NFL, and defense matters again.

I don't know if the Patriots need a deep threat as much as they just need someone who can get open outside the hash marks in man coverage. The way the Jets, Ravens, and Giants have played them in recent years, they basically just clog up the middle of the field and dare Brady to throw the ball to the sidelines. Keeping defenses honest in coverage is going to be important for them moving forward, or they'll continue to tear through the crappy teams in the league and will come up short in the end.

Ridley looks like an interesting prospect. I haven't seen much of him, but he seems to have a quick first step.

They need a nice wide receiver, but the offense shouldn't run through him if that makes sense? Not sure how to explain it, but Lloyd is a good pickup, not sure if he can put a worry in defenses heads though. I think the top defenses, Steelers, Ravens, Giants have the players to consistently single cover him.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

Ridley looks like an interesting prospect. I haven't seen much of him, but he seems to have a quick first step.

They need a nice wide receiver, but the offense shouldn't run through him if that makes sense? Not sure how to explain it, but Lloyd is a good pickup, not sure if he can put a worry in defenses heads though. I think the top defenses, Steelers, Ravens, Giants have the players to consistently single cover him.

The Giants don't have great DBs, they have average Dbs which get covered up when that pass rush is on. if their pass rushers are healthy that D is great, when they aren't the D is mediocre/below average.

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by nyjunc

The Giants don't have great DBs, they have average Dbs which get covered up when that pass rush is on. if their pass rushers are healthy that D is great, when they aren't the D is mediocre/below average.

I didn't say the Giants had great DB's?

I agree, the pass rush is what allows them to single cover receivers. They don't give the QB a lot of time. They have the players to do this. I would say the Giants DB's are slightly above average but inconsistent.

[GoPats]

Originally Posted by displacedfan

Ridley looks like an interesting prospect. I haven't seen much of him, but he seems to have a quick first step.

They need a nice wide receiver, but the offense shouldn't run through him if that makes sense? Not sure how to explain it, but Lloyd is a good pickup, not sure if he can put a worry in defenses heads though. I think the top defenses, Steelers, Ravens, Giants have the players to consistently single cover him.

Yeah, Ridley had some nice games last year but basically got benched when he fumbled a couple of times toward the end of the season and into the Denver playoff game.

Belichick's history with drafting and developing receivers is not very good (and I'm obviously excluding the TE position in that statement). They really haven't had a home-grown (and productive) WR since the Deion Branch / David Givens days. There have been numerous higher round picks that didn't pan out (Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, Taylor Price). Maybe that means they suck at it. Or maybe it just means that they're due for one to work out!

I don't think Lloyd is going to really scare any teams the way Moss used to, but I do think it will force opponents to play the Patriots a little more honestly so they can't ignore the outsides of the field. He can get open in man coverage so as long as you're making teams think about that a little, mission accomplished. It'll also be interesting to see how he does with Brady throwing him the ball. Brady can make crappy receivers look halfway decent, and good receivers look great.

[displacedfan]

Originally Posted by GoPats

Yeah, Ridley had some nice games last year but basically got benched when he fumbled a couple of times toward the end of the season and into the Denver playoff game.

Belichick's history with drafting and developing receivers is not very good (and I'm obviously excluding the TE position in that statement). They really haven't had a home-grown (and productive) WR since the Deion Branch / David Givens days. There have been numerous higher round picks that didn't pan out (Bethel Johnson, Chad Jackson, Brandon Tate, Taylor Price). Maybe that means they suck at it. Or maybe it just means that they're due for one to work out!

I don't think Lloyd is going to really scare any teams the way Moss used to, but I do think it will force opponents to play the Patriots a little more honestly so they can't ignore the outsides of the field. He can get open in man coverage so as long as you're making teams think about that a little, mission accomplished. It'll also be interesting to see how he does with Brady throwing him the ball. Brady can make crappy receivers look halfway decent, and good receivers look great.

Hmm okay, I didn't know about Ridley fumbling.

I agree having Lloyd out there is all the Pats need from him. Although I thought Ocho was actually going to make a decent difference but the Pats offense didn't need him. He runs good routes and has good hands, but never found his place in that offense. I haven't seen much of Llyod recently, but from what I remember on the 49ers, good route runner, good yac, very athletic. Looking at his stats, he had a career year 2 years ago.

According to Wikipedia he is trying to become a rapper to express himself. Never heard about that before. Maybe Bill can jump on a song and spit a verse

[REVISion]

I hate the Patriots as much as anybody, but I think it's tough to argue that Brady isn't one of the greatest QB's of all time. Incredibly accurate.

[PatsTroll]

I think people here are forgetting the most important thing about the last super bowl: Gronk was at 20% of what he normally is. People are quick to point the finger to brady in that super bowl, but didn't Brady set the record for most consecutive completions in a super bowl? Just to let you know how serious Gronk's injury was, he said himself last week that he is a couple of weeks away from being at 100%. That's 3 months from when the high ankle sprain occurred. That injury crippled the patriots' chances. The patriots this past year were a 2 TE offense mainly. They didn't go 3 receivers, 1 TE very often. They were forced to do that in the super bowl because of Gronk and like other posters above have mentioned welker does not stretch the field very often at all and was out of his element trying to catch that pass from brady. was the throw great? no, but it was catchable. a pro bowler like welker needs to make that play, even the most respected football journalist in the nation Peter King said so after the super bowl.

The patriots lost the super bowl, but you can't blame it on brady. Having Lloyd, Welker, Gronkowski, Hernandez and Stalloworth/Gonzalez will make the pats the best offense in the league again. They will only go so far as their defense takes them. Brady went up against a ferocious Giants D in the super bowl, Eli went up against the 31st ranked D. And by the way Brady was playing great until Justin Tuck hit him and he ended up with a shoulder injury. And kudos to the patriots D for only giving up 19 points to a very talented Giants team, the same giants who scored 38 points on the packers and 30 on the niners.

And to the giants fan who started this thread, what's the point in all this? Seriously, you guys are so insecure about Eli and whether he's viewed as an elite QB or not you have to start threads bashing other QBs. Don't worry, I can assure you that Eli is an elite QB.

[PatsTroll]

Originally Posted by Murrell2878

Brady played below standard in both SB losses. I would say he played terrible in 42. He deserves the majority of the blame for those 2 losses.


See. You can’t direct the blame where it belongs. His receivers were covered and there was a free blitzer. What else was he supposed to do? Throw into double coverage? Throw the ball away to stop the clock? Get real. He had no chance because the rusher came completely unblocked.


What does the 99 SB have to do with the 01 SB? The Patriots defense did an AWESOME job in 36. Leading to the 17 points they had. Shutting down the Rams lethal offense! They did EVERYTHING that game and completely carried the whole Pats team while the offense did NOTHING.

You didn’t watch 38 well enough. Delhomme played a great game and there’s no denying that.


In 42 the Pats O played terrible all game long allowing the Giants to stay in the game. Maybe if they played for the entire game it wouldn’t have come down to the last drive.

The pass was BEHIND Welker who made an incredibly difficult adjustment to the ball. In a similar play against the Eagles Welker couldn’t make the catch then either. Proving that play had a high degree of difficulty. If Brady makes a clutch throw then the game is over. He didn’t and they lost. Period.


The D’s job is to not allow points. They only allowed 10. That game was on the D. I didn’t disagree with you that they didn’t play a great game, but you blamed them for the loss when that was completely incorrect.


It’s a relevant point. So it’s not sad. You always blame the D.

really? Brady was so bad that he was supposed to throw for 4 TD passes in SB 42 despite being harrassed all night by the giants D? and his would-be game winning pass to randy moss with 2:39 left in the fourth quarter was just awful, right?

and setting a super bowl record this past year for most consecutive completions, that's just terrible. c'mon the guy didn't even have his best weapon out there at 100% (more like 20%). cut brady at least some slack. and is this criticism really coming from a poster with an avatar of mark sanchez?