Is it talent or coaching?

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Stevied, Oct 2, 2018.

  1. Patriot

    Patriot Well-Known Member

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    The Jets over the years because of their record have had better draft choices than the average team. I would definitely say the brain trust here is pretty weak. From what I can see players do not seem to get much better and the team does not improve by the end of the season. Even if the Jets are in a rebuild, what hope is there other than the performance against Detroit? After that game what happened?

    For many of us, it is the same old tune. I bet if you gave the Jets brain trust any winning franchise in the NFL, they would find a way to mess it up.

    After seeing the latest Belichick Parcells special, you didn't have to be a genius to see that neither man wanted anything to do with the Jets during their interview. Why did Parcels want out of the Jets?

    For a short time it looked like Rex was going to save the franchise, but we all know that ending.

    It looks again like the Jets need to clean house and that probably should include the owner.

    But in the meantime I will try to keep what little hope I have for the ream and pray that the curse that seems to be lingering since 1967 will come to an end.
     
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  2. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I think our talent is better than that. Unfortunately, NONE of the Jets' talent is on the OL. We have talent at QB, WR, TE, DL, S, RB, CB, LB (Williamson), P & K. The problem is mostly the coaching (or lack thereof). Do we have any potential HOFers? Not at this point. Do we have any potential perennial All Pros? Maybe 2 (Darnold and Adams). We don't have any stars at the moment, but with a CS that adapted its schemes to the talents of the players, that had the team disciplined, ready to play each week, was capable of making in-game adjustments (and made them!), and knew how to manage the game, time outs and the clock, I think we could win 7-8 games this season. At this point, the CS and the OL are the things that kill this team's chances of winning.
     
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  3. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Pete Carroll never would have become the coach he was today if he wasn't fired by the Jets and Pats. After that happened, he said that he sat down and took a hard, honest look at himself and his coaching philosophy style, and made radical changes. He then went to USC and put those changes to the test and continued to refine his approach.

    Bowles probably will NEVER become Pete Carroll, but if he has any chance to, he's gonna have to be fired and then spend some time looking in the mirror.

    How has Bowles been set up to fail? Sorry, but that's just ridiculous, in fact it's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen posted on this forum. Bowles has created his own mess with insisting on trying to fit square pegs into round holes, from not being flexible and able to adjust, by not disciplining the team, by not taking a 21st Century approach to the game, and by continuing to employ his BFF (Rodgers) as DC.
     
  4. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    You have somewhat of a point here. I posted the Steelers rankings on penalties yesterday. In the previous 4 years they've bounced around but mostly been in the the 19-25 area. This year is an aberration.
     
  5. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I would have clicked like on this, but I think putting Switzer and Carroll in the same sentence and comparing them is a nonstarter. Carroll is a good coach imo. I don't think that they would ever have been as good as they were without him. He put players in position to succeed and his schemes worked.
     
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  6. Unhappyjetsfan

    Unhappyjetsfan Well-Known Member

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    It's both, but it's more coaching than talent. The one thing Bowles has said he needed to make his defense work is a superior defensive backfield. And all other failings aside, it's the one thing Mac has delivered on - he spent top draft picks on safeties, signed a handful of corners last year, and signed the best available free agent corner this year. He's given him exactly what he's asked for, but the defense is still subpar. Further, the team still continues a ton of mistakes that fall directly on the shoulders of the head coach - calling timeouts because they can't get a play in from the sidelines on time, penalties, players dancing around on the field as if they've actually accomplished something, etc.
     
  7. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    What exactly makes Pete Carroll a good HC? He clearly cheated in recruiting at USC. College coaching is almost entirely about recruiting. He had the best talent in college football and shocking won before knowing it was time to get of of town. He came back to the NFL after years of recruiting the best talent in college. Not surprisingly he had 2 great drafts including an elite QB from day 1. He had by far the best team in football 2 years in a row. He was completely dismantled by BB in the second SB with a vastly superior team on both sides of the ball with the exception of Brady. Since Wilson has been paid they have lost talent and gone down hill. Their drafts have been entirely mediocre since Carroll has been further removed from professionally recruiting as his job. His teams are highly penalized and last year he lost control of the team on the field in a couple of games. He should have been fired after last year.

    Pete did well in college ball. He cheated in recruiting and it served him well in 2 straight drafts. It was interesting that his best defensive player flipped him the bird after being injured last week. He's had some of the great players in the league who couldn't get away from him fast enough.
     
  8. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    Why are people complaining about penalties being the sign of a badly coached team. Penalties have almost no correlation between winning and losing in the NFL over the course of a number of games. I would actual argue that teams that push the rules envelope might win more than teams that don't. For instance Offensive holding can be called on virtually every play. Now if you happen to push the rules and it gets you a chunk play, an extra second to make a TD pass, etc., etc., etc. it's likely that playing on the edge of the rules and getting slightly more penalties than average may be more of a benefit than a negative. You're likely to get holding penalties either way.

    Being less concerned about worrying about penalties may allow your players to be cognizant of something else that's a net plus. It seems like an argument looking for a scape goat.

    What I think we all can agree on there are smart players and dumb players in the NFL. There are prepared players and unprepared players for situations in the NFL. Penalties from my POV says nothing about coaching. More penalties might even be a result of coaches asking players to be aggressive regarding the rules. We know that coach Belicheck is extremely aggressive with the rules. It depends on what you're trying to do. Does an occasional penalty for holding add yards to your team or take away from your team? Not an easy question to answer in a vacuum without great data over a lot of games.
     
  9. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    The D is ranked 13th. Slightly better than average. Our 0 is ranked 29th. One of the things that kills a defense is an O that keeps them on the field all day. Our D is being asked to defend about 66 plays a game. Our O is only running 57 plays a game. We actually defended Jacks as good or better than the Pats did if you figure how much more time and plays our D actually had to defend.

    By subpar you mean not substantially better than the NFL average, correct?
     
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  10. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    Nice analysis Biggs

    But come Sunday when the ponies take a dump on us what will it matter??????!!!!

    Bates and Bowel movement don't hear you...it will be business as usual

    Telll me YOU don't think this crew HAS to go???
     
    #50 NYJetsO12, Oct 3, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2018
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  11. mr nyjet

    mr nyjet Well-Known Member

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    since 1970, this team has utterly failed, except for a few times, to draft talent between rounds 2-5.

    reliance of high cost free agents is expensive and short sighted.

    as for coaching, the defense keeps regressing. since both the head coach and defensive coordinator supposedly are defensive savants,

    one more game like miami or jville, with lack of in-game adjustments, is enough for me to fire both those guys in season.

    let bates be interim head coach, and kevin greene run the defense. bench guys, cough lee, who blow assignments,

    guys who do stupid stuff on the field, crowell, should be nailed to the bench, period.

    enough of the coddling, actions speak louder than rants.
     
  12. CBG

    CBG Well-Known Member

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    sadly its BOTH,,,,,
     
  13. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    As I often find, your post makes good sense. I agree that simply looking at the number of penalties in a vacuum isn't worth much, but looking at the number of "dumb" penalties is telling IMO. And no, a coach can't be blamed for every single penalty or mistake, but when you see a long term pattern, that's worth noting also. And while there are "smart" players and "dumb" players, I don't think it's pure coincidence when teams have more than their share of either, and coaching has something to with that. Under Bowles the Jets seem to make the "dumb" penalties more often from my POV.
     
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  14. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Well said!
     
  15. mr nyjet

    mr nyjet Well-Known Member

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    thank you for the compliment, but all i did was state the obvious.

    and, for the record, there are a number of posters on this site who could do a better job running the defense than the hc or dc.

    that is really scary stuff!:eek:
     
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  16. red75bronco

    red75bronco Well-Known Member

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    Aggressive penalties during the play is fine. Lazy penalties like defensively holding, false starts, and unsportsmanlike are the problem and direct correlation to bad coaching.
     
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  17. Unhappyjetsfan

    Unhappyjetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I meant below average.
     
  18. Stevied

    Stevied Well-Known Member

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    Most ridiculous things ever heard huh? Well let’s see, they gutted the team to tank last year and are in the early stages of a rebuild. What I meant by, “setup to fail” was that we’re killing him for not winning games against:
    A-Teams that are more talented than his
    B- When the goal isn’t to win games.

    Most teams starting to rebuild aren’t exactly Super Bowl contenders. So to kill him for going 5-11 isn’t fair on the surface. I’m very big on judging ppl on potential, if the max potential of this years team is 5-11, and they go 4-12 or 5-11, he did his job. Now if the team ain’t prepared, has the wrong ppl out of position (without cause) then boot the bitch.

    The whole point of this Pulitzer Prize winning post, was to make sure we’re looking at Bowles correctly. To make sure, as frustrating as things are, that we are being fair. I don’t wanna get rid of a guy and a stop lager have him nail it.

    What’s my take? Well, I’m undecided. I’d say that the three teams he lost to are more talented than his, so on one hand he did what he’s supposed to. On the other hand, to come out flat, punting on 4th down last week, ain’t kosher. I also like how the D is playing to a degree (take always, sacks) but frustrated with not stopping late.

    Conversely if he walks the plank I wanna get a real guy. We all bitched about Rex right? And some other clown on here told me Tennenbaum was the worst ever. Look what came after, if you buy that, Bowles and Idzik (then who I’m also 30/70 on).

    I just wanna make sure we are t moving talk early on someone, hence the Pete Carroll comparison. And in regards to the guy who made the penalties being coaching related comment, if Claiborne held a guy because he was in a badly called D and trying to recover that’s one thing, what I’m seeing is these guys are usaually there with the guy and still doing it.


    Last, last thing- for the Darron Lee apologists, what happened last week? Doug Marrone said him and Williamson were the best ILB tandem they’ve seen. What does he do out of respect and fear? Devise a plan based on exploiting them. Read the bitch Cimini article for more clarification
     
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  19. Patriot

    Patriot Well-Known Member

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    You are correct that college involves a lot of recruiting. But Carrol does deserve some credit with USC and what he has done in Seattle. BB was not blowing smoke when he claimed to have studied Carrol and admired him quite a bit. Carrol is a defensive type coach who helped architect the Seattle defense. He is unfairly blamed for the so called bad play call. The OC was Darrell Bevell who was no dummy either except for that play call.

    Also the Pats in my opinion had better receivers in that Super Bowl.

    The flipping of the bird by Thomas was more about not having a long term deal and being screwed by the injury.

    Even if you disagree with me so far, would you not agree that Carrol at this time is a better coach than Bowles?
     
  20. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

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    You know that Pete's team plays a base D with very little scheming right? He was able to do it because he had the players to do it. What a coincidence that his two best drafts happen right after he walked on USC for recruiting violations. They haven't had a good draft in 4 years. Another coincidence.

    Carrols two super bowl teams ran a base D with almost no scheming and substitutions. That's how good that team was on D. The slow trickle of talent out since the signing of Wilson to a big contract has been really evident. Last year the Seahawks left the field twice in a full blown brawl. Pete came on the field to break it up and was completely ignored by the players. You're right Thomas is another guy who wants out.

    Carrol has had Boomer Esiason, lossing season, Drew Bledsoe, 2 playoff appearances 1 and 2 record, Matt Hasselback, 2 losing seasons and he has been spectacular since drafting Russell Wilson. Since Wilson is off his rookie season the team has been in decline.

    Pete has a lot of NFL experience and has had experienced good QB play. Wilson by any standard is an elite NFL QB. As you pointed out he hasn't been as good since both Bevel and Quinn left.

    Of course he's better than Bowles. He's got a ton of experience. He also had a stacked D, Lynch and Wilson. He's had way more talent than Bowles has had to work with.
     
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