I feel this is deserving of a thread. I think Bates overall has done a decent job calling plays, but I have noticed a few instances in each of the first two games he has called some odd plays in some odd scenarios that has hindered our drives. The first was the Darnold play action on play 1 of his career. Enough said. The other in that game was the end around to Robby on 3rd and 1. Then in the Dolphins game there were a couple of instances such as the first play pass call after we recovered the fumble. I was screaming run at the TV and there was the pass. It was just not a great play call, and there was no reason not to run that football to get closer to the end zone if not just outright score a TD. There was one other play call in that game, and I cannot remember specifically, but I remember saying to myself. BUT WHY. So net net, what are your thoughts on Bates playcalling? On the whole I think he's doing a decent job, but I am worried he's good to make us scratch our heads in some key and obvious scenarios and may have a tendency to get cute in the wrong spots.
The thing is, it's difficult to recognise the wrong spots until they've come and gone. In hindsight, a call can often look bad that would have been praised if the play had gone well. The fact is that almost any play can look good or bad depending on how the defense handles it. The other team has a massive say on the outcome of any given down, so it isn't just a matter of calling the 'correct' play and everything working out automatically. I agree with you on that Robby end-around, though. That seemed like the wrong call for 3rd-and-one, especially as he doesn't seem like the sort of player to make a couple of guys miss and fight for a yard.
It's been said before that a lot of OCs like to take a shot at the end zone first play right after a turnover. Hard to blame Bates or Darnold on that, especially with Pryor coming out and apologizing for his sloppy route. Darnold's first play and the head scratcher with Anderson: definitely agree.
Not sure what to make of Bates since this is his first OC job in a few years. Maybe he needs a bit of a ramp up to get into a groove and get a feel for the game again from a Coordinator's POV. So far, I agree with you guys that his play calling has been strange at times but I would like to think that's all a part of his becoming an OC again. Couple that with mediocre personnel and a rookie QB and its gonna be all uphill this year.
The two plays that really stood out to me were the 1st play of the season and then the 3rd and 1 play with Robbie vs Detroit. The only issue I had last week vs Miami was we didn't throw one screen pass (to a rb or wr). I remember back in the day when TP was on Cleveland he was phenomenal at catching a screen 1v1 and using his athletic ability to beat the CB for quick gains. They did that against us and Revis was abused constantly.
Chances are he's just rusty. Not to mention seeing things two different lights between preseason and training camp calling those match ups and now in the regular season, I would say he's still not sure what the offense is capable of after getting players back healthy. It's not the same team as last year. That being said, the end-around was complete horse shit! lol My hope is that he will be willing to go more vertical, I mean 2 of our WR's are deep threat specialist and Robby is statistically speaking one of the very best in the NFL. We have to get these guys more opportunities on the outside to win deep. I think underneath everything has looked great in passing including to the RB's.
My only complaint with Bates so far is that we aren't even attempting to have any kind of screen game. I think we ran one TE screen last week and nothing the first week. I know Powell has been coming out of the backfield but has there been any designed screens? That, plus the vertical game with Robby and Pryor but I also understand not wanting to throw that at Sam right out of the gate. The only specific play so far I've had an issue with was the awful end around that even he apologized to the team for. First play of the season, don't care... what's Sam's strength? Rolling out and hitting someone on the run. I had to listen to the first snap on the radio (and only that snap, go figure) and Wischusen even said before the play started that he'd be shocked if it's not a designed roll out. The call to throw that led to Sam's INT in the endzone... no issue with it. If Pryor does his job it's a TD and momentum changes and we are praising Bates for showing sack. It's way way too early to make a call one way or the other on the guy but I do know that I've hated a ton of Jets OCs halfway through the first game so that's a plus!
I agree with your basic premise regarding Bates' play calling. I think he's made some very good calls, and then some questionable ones. It's hard to accurately assess however, because we don't know what Bates was thinking and why he called those plays. There may have been something he saw or some tendency he knew of that we don't. Maybe Darnold or one of the Jets players suggested a certain play. I totally agree with your questioning the play action pass on the first play of Darnold's career, and would take that further to say that imo he doesn't help Darnold much at all at the beginning of games. Bates is on record as saying that he believes that if you treat a rookie like a rookie then they will play like a rookie, but if you treat them like a veteran they will play like a veteran, or something to that extent. I think that's utter BS. Darnold IS a rookie. It's not gonna stunt his growth to give him some easy pass plays at the outset of each game to get him in a groove/rhythm, help settle him down, and get the offense moving. If this is the way that Bates thinks, then as far as I'm concerned, he can go back to hiking trails and leave football behind, because Sam will have to succeed in spite of Bates, rather than because of Bates. Also, what sense does it make to call a play action pass on the very first play of the game when you haven't even established the run yet? I also agree that an end around on 3rd and one at least seems like a bizarre call. I'd like to know his rationale for calling it there. I disagree with you regarding the pass play following the fumble recovery. Most of the best teams go for the jugular immediately after getting a TO. I love the aggressiveness there. A TD there changes the momentum and tone of the game. The Jets had been having little or no success running the ball vs Miami. Why would a run play there have been a good call? We've criticized the Jets for years under Bowles for not throwing the ball into the end zone and for not being aggressive. Bates makes an aggressive call, and you're knocking it. There may have been better pass plays that could have been called, but I don't think that there was necessarily anything wrong with that call unless you want to make the argument that you don't like Pryor, which I can understand. IMO the execution (or lack thereof) was the problem, not the play call. With Pryor's height and experience, it should have been a TD or at worst, an incompletion. If that play is indicative of Pryor's mental focus and understanding of his position, then perhaps he ought to ride the bench and only be used in case of injuries.
The thing is that an end around is supposed to take the defense by surprise. They're not designed for the WR to have make a couple of guys miss and/or fight for a yard. The timing on when they are called is critical as is the execution.
From the other side, the defense in years past has been killed with properly executed end arounds. The way in which you do it is key, and leverages heavily the fake and element of surprise. The defense has to bite and over commit. The first play of his career on the other hand was extremely ballsy. But if properly placed with the receiver behind the defender, which it wasn't, we burn them for a ton. So ill take the good with the bad, some due to poor execution, some too risky for a rookie. But one thing is for sure. We are not boring on offense any more.
Minor complaint... what happened to running outside the tackles against Miami? I expected to see a lot more out of Crowell. It seemed to be working pretty well in Detroit. Granted, Detroit is a mess but it's not like the Dolphins are an elite defense or anything.
Miami game, Bates didn't attack the weak point of the Dolphins D as much as you want (the linebackers). Also, I think they are using Pryor far too much. Early in the game Bates involved Powell and Powell was generating yards in the passing game, then the TD came. Would have liked to see Powell get close to around 10 targets in that game to help take the pressure off Darnold (screens, quick throws to the back, more angle routes). Powell has good hands, no reason why he shouldn't get 40+ catches this season.
I know you don't like Pryor but he made some plays. Right before the half his speed got us halfway down the field. He made another big grab later in the game. That being said... he made the biggest mistake of the game and dropped another bomb that hit him right in the hands. I have no problem with how much he's being used because to me, the big strike potential forces a defense to take him seriously.
I respect that, you are right, he made a few plays, but the guy doesn't run every route right and he's scared of physicality. If he blocks someone @ the end of the half drive, perhaps Herndon gets in the EZ. He just stood there. IDK, I want my receivers to fight on each snap, I just don't trust Pryor. That's a problem I have with him. I wish Darnold looked Robbys way on that INT.
Pryor has shortcomings. That's why he was available. But I do think he provides a lot and I do think he needs to be on the field unless these bullshit mistakes start piling up. I also wish Darnold looked at Robby or even Crowell coming out of the backfield but even with that being said, if Pryor did his job it's a TD. Or at least not an INT. He's on a one year deal... I'd be shocked if he's back next year especially considering Robby and Enunwa will be getting new deals and probably not small ones either.
I I agree. Ideally Robby would've been ten yards downfield before he even had to think about making a guy miss. But in the event the defense sniffs it out, it would be preferable to have a shifty or slippery guy to create that bit of space, or a tenacious fighter who could bull his way over the gain line. By using Robby, it sort of made it essential that the defense was taken by surprise as he wasn't going to get much done on his own.
Last week we should have attacked the Dolphins linebackers with shorter passes as the group isn’t good at covering. We could have modified our game plan when running wasn’t working with more screen passes, dump offs, and other things to negate their advantage.
The Robbie reverse was dumb because it took us out of fg range. That’s not a bad call between the 40s . Other than that he hasn’t been bad. I don’t get the impending doom feeling every time they break the huddle.
I wonder if that wasn't tried because Miami was making sure they stayed home on the edge to keep Sam from rolling out. I too thought they should be doing more of that, as well as getting Sam to roll out more, but someone here (sorry I forget who) pointed out that Miami was trying to keep Darnold in the pocket to force him to beat them with his arm not his legs. I think that's a valid point. Still, I wish Bates had done more to combat that. Screens, draws, etc. As for the rest of Bates's call so far, it's a mixed bag, leaning towards the plus side. I'm not a fan of end arounds except when done sparingly and in the right circumstance. As FJ pointed out, doing one that risks taking you out of FG range is too risky. On the pass to the EZ after the turnover, I liked trying to strike quickly, but maybe to another target towards the corner? The one thing you do not want to do is give it right back, which is exactly what they did. I blame all three principles for this. Pryor for not running a better route and for not putting more effort onto either catching it or breaking it up; Sam for not looking for another option - I thin this is due to rookie inexperience and excitement trying to force it and he'll learn from this; and Bates for calling this particular play. I assign Pryor the most blame however because his was due to lack of effort, whereas Sam and Bates were trying their best IMO. It's hard to fault Bates when they put up 48 the first game, and Sam threw for over 300 yards in the second game. He has a learning curve too, and hopefully he climbs it quickly. It does seem like Sam buys into Bates's philosophy so that's a big plus. I'm not ready to fire him yet.
