Leonard Williams working to improve his sack total

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by GasedAndConfused, Jun 21, 2018.

  1. LF911SC

    LF911SC Well-Known Member

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    Over to me is a good start. Not 50s or 70s. Too many are bunched in these numbers so we're going to get a lot of he's number X on the list. There are 30+ at 100 or more. And not every single player in the top 20 is in the HOF.
     
  2. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    not really. a 4-3 DE is similar to a 3-4 OLB. usually faster and around the 265-270lb weight range. Williams is much bigger at 302lbs and is more suited as a 3-4 DE which is similar to a 4-3 DT. that's why we slid him inside when we had 4 down lineman with mo and rich on the outside. he's more comparable to a suh in his heydey. they play the same position and are the same size. suh was widely considered the best DT in football for many years and averages 6.5 sacks a year in his career and only reached the 10 sack mark once with 10 in his rookie season. he made the probowl 5 times. 2010 (rookie season 10 sacks), 2012 8 sacks, 2013 5.5 sacks, 2014 8.5 sacks, 2016 5 sacks.

    A more realistic mark for williams is 8 sacks and mostly stuffing runs and being a disruptive force. 8 sacks from his position is top 5 performance if not top 3.
     
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  3. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    I'll agree that sack numbers won't tell the whole story for a guy in Williams' position and I would be absolutely happy with 8 sacks.

    The big thing with him is he is not generating push and sacks do come from that. While he's not asked to be a "sack artist" in this defense, he's also not asked to set the edge in the running game much or drop back in coverage like sometimes your typical 4-3DE does, and takes away from sack numbers.

    Williams was also a top 10 pick so there are higher expectations. Just taking up blockers like he did last year is not enough, we want to see more from him. Maybe asking for increased sack numbers is not the way to go about it but he should be producing a lot more. You mention the Suh comparison, I think that's a solid comparison in terms of playing style, but Suh in Detroit, regardless of sack numbers, lived in the backfield. I haven't seen that from Williams yet.

    ---

    in the article they mention trying to get him off the ball quicker. That is a solid plan because he was slow as molasses off the snap last season. Some of that comes from desire though as opposed to technique...... which is another reason it was good to get Wilkerson out of that D-line room, his desire or lack thereof, was rubbing off on others
     
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  4. TwoHeadedMonster

    TwoHeadedMonster Well-Known Member

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    You're right, I overlooked Leslie O'Neal (one of my favorite players), and I missed that Simeon Rice is eligible (and has been for several years--it just doesn't seem that long to me). Good call.

    "Over" what "is a good start"? Not 50's or 70's, so 80? I think that's fair. Looking at the numbers, that list is about 60/40 DEs to LBs.
     
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  5. LF911SC

    LF911SC Well-Known Member

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    Really I'm not sure if the numbers are worth much to me. I guess I have in my mind to just think aboutabou are and have been the dominant sack guys, who you fear in games and have to game plan to protect your QB.
     
  6. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    You are going off-topic a little bit here Bowles ... JJ Watt and Muhammad Wilkerson were not 4-3 DEs in college, I think one of them maybe played 1 season. Sure, they are very versatile, but at the end of the day they were drafted as 3-4 DEs, not 4-3 DEs. The initial argument was 3-4 DEs don't get a lot of sacks. Mo w/ Rex was a normal 3-4 DE, they might've moved him around but he was still a base 3-4 guy. JJ Watt they move them around, but they were still drafted as 3-4 DE and it's their natural positions.

    In today's league 3-4 / 4-3 has become nearly obsolete anyway.
     
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  7. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    that's the thing though. he disrupts a ton of plays. i've seen it myself. sometimes taking on 3 blockers but usually at least doubled team. he opened the way for davis to have a career year and lee to have a great 2nd season. he's also applied a ton of pressure on the QB leading to bad throws, throwaways etc and QB hits that get in their head. opposing QBs know to look out for him and teams plan against him. he's jsut been half a step slow from a ton of sacks but as i pointed out with suh who was widely considered the best and plays the same position he's had that much impact as suh has.
     
  8. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    mo played with enough talent on the d-line teams couldn't focus him down. we also played a lot of 4 man fronts in the rex era and tricky alighnments to get wilk 1 on 1 opportunites. leo hasn't gotten that. college DTs usually become Des in the 3-4

    your typically 3-4 DE is around 300 lbs and 6-4 to 6-5. your typically 4-3 DE is around 260lbs but often the same hieght. they are faster and better rushers but don't play the run as well. in a 4-3 leo is a DT not a DE. he's an interior rusher to collapse the pocket and force the QB outside to the edge rusher. most sacks in the NFL come from the edge even by safties, LBers, DEs, and CBs. rushing the inside is much tougher in todays NFL and leo isn't built like an edge rusher. If we had a good one teams worried about they wold be able to put so much attention on leo.
     
  9. MoWilkBeast

    MoWilkBeast Well-Known Member

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    Lee had a great second season? I'm far from having the downer on Lee that some, many even, on here have but he didn't have anything like a great season. He was just about OK - improved and made some impact plays and mostly didn't appear to be headed down the pure bust route that I had feared. But he's a long way from being great. And, yes, Leo did disrupt a lot which helped him and Davis look better.
     
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  10. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    It's good to have lineman that are versatile and can move around. Bowles doesn't typically run a 3-4 or a 4-3 anyway, its more nickel, like I said before 3-4/4-3 that idea is becoming more obsolete. Lesser teams run the base. I already know, where Leo would match up depending on formation / scheme. Mo is 300+ pounds and could play 3 man front DE / 4 man front DT ... same with Leo. Leo might actually be right at 300. At the end of the day, they were initially 3-4 DEs, Mo played a lot of his rookie year in that position. From there, they moved him around.

    No matter the circumstance, you always need good lineman to help create matchups.
     
  11. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    i don't want him getting sacks......disrupt and stuff the run. the sacks will come from the phantom stud pass rushers we have had for the past 15 or so years. LOL.
     
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  12. Never put up gawdy stats in college & i wouldnt expect it now. Hes a valuble piece..one of the best at his position in the NFL but finishing is not what he does well.

    Hes a disrupter who can really manhandle blocking schemes which can keep top OLs in check for 60 & open things up for others to make plays.

    What we need is for that small chunk of stat worthy plays he actually makes to come in big spots be it game changing or game clinching.

    Truth be told when he first got selected i felt his best spot for success in this D was at nose. Hes got the size,hands & anchor to handle the phone booth & his quickness/wingspan would be a major issue for most Nfl Centers.He immediately commands a double team which opens things up for thise A gap blitz Bowles supposedly loves. But then again i havent agreed w much this regime has done w the DL.Its been the biggest regression on team.Mr puppet DC is a former D-line coach!
     
    #32 KurtTheJetsFan, Jun 23, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 23, 2018
  13. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    everyone is down on lee but yes he did have a great season. He isn't great in coverage like 99% of NFL Lbers and made some fixable mistakes like overrunning plays a couple of times, but still his season as a whole was great

    yes many teams are opting to to run more 4 man fronts becuase teams play less and less base defense in the passing league and a lot more nickel and dime packages. but when w eplay 3 down lineman, williams shifts to DT. ealy and mo were our DEs last year in with 4 down lineman. interior lineman don't get as many sacks as DEs do. it depends what positions coaches put them in
     
  14. LF911SC

    LF911SC Well-Known Member

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    Fans seem to ignore and forget that offenses try as hard as they can to get an offense player into coverage by a LB. it's a mismatch. Jets fans seem to think there are alternatives to this basic of the game.
     
  15. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    No, that's B.S. It's a B.S. excuse because Sharon Lee was drafted in the first round for that very reason. To make it less of a mismatch when a LB has to drop into coverage!!

    Otherwise, why would anyone in their right mind draft a skinny-ass middle linebacker like Sharon Lee in the 1st round?? He certainly wasn't drafted for his ability to take on guards and fullbacks at the point of attack. He was drafted for that 4.4 speed, knowing full well that teams like to exploit linebackers in coverage AND to take away that weakness.

    That is why, so far, Lee is a bust. Because he gets burned every week in coverage, making him just another linebacker, another linebacker who happens to be built like women I've dated, which makes him a weakness in the running game and the passing game.

    Watch Telvin Smith in Jacksonville and tell me linebackers can't cover. They can as he shows. And he's a small linebacker like Lee - - he is the reason Lee was drafted, Macc wanted that on this defense. But Smith is tough and smart, something Lee is not.
     
    #35 BrowningNagle, Jun 25, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2018
  16. LF911SC

    LF911SC Well-Known Member

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    Ugh, no it's not BS. Every single offense in the NFL gets hard when they have a RB or WR one on one with a LB.

    Because Lee is smaller by an inch and a few pounds lighter than SOME other LBs, Jets fan think he should cover like a safety. And call him a bust.

    Some LBs cover well for a LB. None excell in coverage, teams still welcome the matchup.
     
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  17. BrowningNagle

    BrowningNagle Well-Known Member

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    Regardless of whether I think he should cover like a safety or not, he doesn't. And he sucks at virtually every other part of playing ILB in this defense. That's why he's a bust.

    Lee was the single biggest weakness on the defense the last 2 years, I'm telling you. Even worse than Wilkerson who was half-assing it all year. Every single time teams needed a key 1st down, they targeted Sharon Lee. On passes out of the flat, and on counters in the running game. Lee was a step behind in every scenario.

    Watch the all-22 and tell me this isn't true
     
  18. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    exactly. no LBers are covering the best receiving RBs and nowadays there are tons of them. gone are the days of "the bus" and these huge 3 down backs. now most teams use more shifty pass catching backs because they know LBers can't cover them. jet fans expect lee to be prime revis in coverage. it's just not possible.
     
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  19. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    Interior defensive lineman still pose the greatest threat to the QB. Mo still got his playing in a 3-4, can't forget that. I prefer a legitimate interior pass rusher and compliment him with speed on the outside.
     
  20. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    Telvin Smith is a really good linebacker, but he gets beat too.





    Hopefully Lee takes a step up this year.
     

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