Basic guidelines to avoid taking a bust QB

Discussion in 'Draft' started by GasedAndConfused, Apr 20, 2018.

  1. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    1) never trust a late riser (mayfield) (vince young factor)
    2) never fall in love with size and speed numbers at the combine (allen, jackson) (Jamarcus Russel factor)
    3) Be wary of those with a small college resume (darnold) (sanchez factor)
    4) don't put to much stock into meaningless stuff forcing you to pass on a great prospect (rosen) (aaron rodgers factor)
     
  2. forevercursed

    forevercursed Well-Known Member

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    Mayfield isn't really late riser. He's been a top 10 guy for at least the past month if not more. Plus unlike Young he doesn't have a noodle arm or noodle brains. His college pedigree is good. 48 starts under his belt

    A possible lack of passion for football is not small stuff. I like Rosen but I have to wonder with him. I just don't know if he's in it for the long haul. I would be supportive of the pick though
     
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  3. xxedge72x

    xxedge72x 2018 Gang Green QB Guru Award Winner

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    Damn man. Why hasn't some NFL team paid you yet?
     
  4. IIMeanDeanII

    IIMeanDeanII Well-Known Member

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    I feel like I've seen you on these boards for a long time but I don't ever remember your posts being so lazy and condescending.

    You always been this kind of poster?

    I don't understand posters like this at all, I mean, to some extent, okay, some posters are just straight ignorant but this isn't one of those times. It's actually revolved around solid thought and input, so why act like you are far above a thread like this?

    Unless you're upset at the notion of your precious being slighted to a degree in this thread. Is that it?

    Any Mayfield hate automatically causes you to post this way?

    To each their own though.
     
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  5. xxedge72x

    xxedge72x 2018 Gang Green QB Guru Award Winner

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    It's a two way street. There are good conversations, and there are not so good conversations. Good conversations are open minded and thoughtful, bad conversations repeat the same shtick talking points repeatedly and devolve, particularly when new threads are created to reiterate those same near trolling level talking points. Perhaps the best answer for me would've been to stay out of this one.

    If you've halfway paid attention to the culmination of my posts, I'm extremely open to Rosen and Darnold. Mayfield is my preference, but I won't cry if it is one of the other two. What I spend most of my time responding to is the Mayfield bashing. There is a cult of Mayfield hate around here, hence why people also come to his defense the strongest. Rosen needs no such defense as the majority of the board is nearly fellating him. I've defended Rosen and Darnold, and even Jackson where appropriate. But the Mayfield hate is through the roof, and for every action there is a reaction. In this case, I am the reaction.

    You can make your judgements, but perhaps understand the full context before throwing shade.
     
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  6. Walt White

    Walt White Well-Known Member

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    I don't buy the late riser argument anyway. That has everything to do with the media catching up to the teams evaluations as they get more info. The early evaluations by the media are for fans to click on and watch on TV.
     
  7. xxedge72x

    xxedge72x 2018 Gang Green QB Guru Award Winner

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    You've now accused me twice of being lazy. Your language in these posts led me to curiosity as to what was driving you in this manner. A review of your post history shows that 1) Josh Allen is your guy (clearly not mine) and 2) you despise Baker Mayfield. My interpretation of those details leads me to believe that coming after me is just another way for you to discredit Mayfield and his fans. Your post history consists of exactly 15 posts on Mayfield, up until the time of this post today:

    http://forums.theganggreen.com/search/41481889/?q=mayfield&o=date&c[user][0]=5512

    In these 15 posts, not once did you provide any evidence for any position you took. You've mentioned that you've watched, and there is no way to know how much you've watched or to what degree you've researched, because you never provided any evidence of any of that. Even @SolidGoldBowles, who I was responding to originally, has put in a ton of time and effort documenting evidence to support his positions, that I otherwise don't agree with most of the time. You, however, have given absolutely nothing.

    You have the audacity to call ME lazy, so where is your great contributions to this discussion? Here are the points you've made in your 15 posts (paraphrased):

    1) Oklahoma's scheme, which isn't an all pro offense, led to his production. (Especially noting this complaint since it appears to be the primary complaint you have against Mayfield)
    2) His competition isn't impressive
    3) He has better surrounding talent at Oklahoma than the other guys do
    4) He's a douchebag, a "cocky shit stain, consistently putting out an aura of how much better he is than everyone else"
    5) He WON'T come here, because Mac and Bowles only bring in high character guys.
    6) Anyone who thinks Mayfield is better than Allen must be having a baffling, kneejerk reaction, since Allen is a stud, and Mayfield is not in the same ballpark.
    7) Mayfield's deep ball accuracy is weak, by your observation (this seemed like a minor point for you)

    You've also mentioned that Mayfield doesn't have a 1st round grade by "SEVERAL PEOPLE". Who the fuck these people are, we have no idea, because you didn't bother to provide them. I know they are out there, but I don't know which ones you are referencing.

    You've twice responded to me in other posts saying "Still waiting for what I'm missing", as if I've never answered the questions you are so sure about. Let me help you out. I know that I'm lazy, as you've pointed out twice, so here is my post history specifically on Mayfield:

    http://forums.theganggreen.com/search/41480666/?q=mayfield&o=date&c[node]=10&c[user][0]=74
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/search/41480046/?q=mayfield&o=date&c[node]=34&c[user][0]=74

    I've had to break it up into two searches, one for the Jets forum and one for the draft forum, since trying to capture all the posts in one search won't actually happen due to the 200 post search limit.

    Now realistically speaking, I don't expect you to actually go through my posts. That is a ridiculous ask of anyone, and unfeasible. I will instead provide highlights from my lazy post history that address your points specifically:

    1) Scheme / not a pro style offense:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...hat-the-film-shows.90243/page-11#post-3686872
    ^ Mayfield comparison to Drew Brees as an NFL draft prospect coming out of Purdue (which is not to say he will have the career Brees will have, but to show that a prospect like this can succeed despite scheme)/
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/threads/jets-acquire-3-overall-pick.90145/page-50#post-3671817
    ^ Besides you not caring for PFF, which you've described as "ass", I make the point that the Super Bowl winning MVP came out of the exact same system, not to mention Case Keenum (also in a championship game) and Blake Bortles (wasn't Air Raid, but still spread), also championship game.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-15#post-3672891
    ^ Mayfield was a major contributor to reads and decision making, and helped Oklahoma's scheme be what it was. There is an article where Lincoln Riley discusses this as well, but not included in this post.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-16#post-3672990
    ^ Pre snap reads.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-70#post-3685018
    ^ Evolution of the shotgun in the NFL.

    2) Competition:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-29#post-3678681
    ^ This post also slightly touches on scheme.

    3) Oklahoma talent:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...hat-the-film-shows.90242/page-17#post-3678955
    ^ This post starts by addressing height (which amazingly you didn't include in the complaint list, cheers to you on that one), but then goes on to address the talent issue.

    4) Character:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-52#post-3682920
    ^ This post provides links with several references from former teammates and others detailing his character and leadership.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-71#post-3685056
    ^ Provides a link to a 2016 article talking about Mayfield's background.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-42#post-3682105
    ^ Responding to a post comparing Mayfield to Geno Smith.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-52#post-3682940
    ^ Work ethic
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-77#post-3685621
    ^ Link to a solid article.

    5) Fit with the Jets:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-54#post-3683042
    ^ This post was a Rosen vs. Mayfield debate, but does touch heavily on where both fit.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-55#post-3683249
    ^ Another Rosen vs Mayfield post, and also touches on the Oklahoma talent issue.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-76#post-3685581
    ^ Post about the Jets scheme under Bates this year vs. Morton last year (relevant because you have to understand the scheme to understand the player fit).

    6) Mayfield vs. Allen:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/threads/jets-acquire-3-overall-pick.90145/page-48#post-3671629
    ^ This post also goes into fit with the Jets, but provides caps on both Mayfield and Allen.
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...class-prefers-allen.90271/page-3#post-3679032
    ^ This post details that while having a high completion percentage does not equal NFL success, having a minimum completion is mandatory most of the time, to see any NFL success (which Allen does not posses).
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...-discussion-thread.87718/page-17#post-3643833
    ^ Metrics on accuracy.

    7) Deep accuracy:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/threads/what-qb-do-we-draft-now.89994/page-9#post-3663330
    ^ Example disagreeing

    You've also accused me of getting bent out of shape if someone posts something against Mayfield. Here I've posted Greg Cosell's scouting report on Mayfield, which is relevant to this because Cosell's report flies directly in the face of a post I made about Mayfield's action under duress to be a plus. I know I'm not a scout with the eye for this the way Cosell is, and I'm willing to admit when I'm wrong, which I am here. If something seems like bullshit, it is fair game to call it out respectfully, being that this is a discussion forum:
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...ield-as-top-3-pick.90149/page-86#post-3686836

    Here I make my argument for why every player is the "best pick":
    http://forums.theganggreen.com/thre...hat-the-film-shows.90243/page-13#post-3687090

    I could also get into the history of the back and forth I've had with @SolidGoldBowles, including when he tried to get me banned, but it seems like a waste of time in this case. Despite not agreeing with much of what he has to say, I at least respect the fact that he continues to fight his fight, and knowing that makes me realize I should tone down my own sarcasm a bit.

    As for you @IIMeanDeanII, don't go calling people lazy when you aren't bringing it yourself. I have no doubt everything I just provided will be shrugged off as more Pro-Mayfield propaganda, or some other excuse to back up your unshakable conviction. I consider your accusation answered, and that you are no longer in a state of waiting, as you had twice suggested before. Good day to you.
     
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  8. IIMeanDeanII

    IIMeanDeanII Well-Known Member

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    @xxedge72x

    To start. I respect the time you put into this and your stance. This is the kind of stuff I love to see on the forums. I have a respect for you now because of the time and quality of this post. Regardless of my overall views of some of the content within your summary.

    So Thank you for that.

    I am wrong in calling you lazy from a general sense. You clearly have spent time on your stance overall on this forum. If I had took the time to actually see the contribution you've made, I clearly would not have called you out the way I did.

    However, coincidence or timing, made me think your one liner quips were very lazy and unproductive for others and this board. I can't stand posters that only belittle those around them and their views without providing at the very least, a thoughtful view point.

    I apologize for this, as it was all I was seeing from you, this again, was my fault, I was lazy and didn't bother to check your posts overall. You are correct.

    Now, for some of the talking points.

    Mayfield is the only QB in the "top 4" I have a real issue with. Darnold, I'm not extremely high on either.

    My post quality may not provide video clips or pic evidence to back up my points but I have given time and thought into the majority of my posts along the way. I have stated many reasons why I believe Mayfield to be a bad selection for us at 3.

    I understand it's my word against the world at that point but that is the way most posters posts are. I have been known to watch a lot of College football. Over the years I think I've shown that I don't just bullshit my thoughts and mash them into a ball just to make something fit. I love football and I enjoy watching NCAA football. Draft time in a lot of ways is my favorite time of the year, every year.

    I do watch a lot of film and I provide points and in depth reasons for why I feel the way I do.

    There are times where I just don't feel the conversation is at a intellectual point of needing to provide certain sources or content.

    Perhaps I can do more of this.

    Overall. I respect you have your opinion and view. I may not agree with everything a lot of people feel on this board but I will always respect a thought driven view point, opposite of mine, over sarcastic one liner posts.

    That's all I was seeing from you. I can see now that you contribute much more to this forum (which I suspected but was too lazy to double check) and I appreciate

    I stand corrected. Thank you for your time and effort with this.
     
  9. JethroTull

    JethroTull 2018 Least Knowledgeable Poster

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    Mayfield is a punk. He will bust in the NFL .
     
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  10. K'OB

    K'OB 2021 TGG Fantasy Football Champ

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    I may as well retire now then.
     
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  11. joe

    joe Well-Known Member

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    Number of games Josh Rosen played: 30.
    Number of games Sam Darnold played: 27.
    Number of games Mark Sanchez played: 13.

    Be wary of meaningless claims.


    "my favorite football idol"
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    See those 2 words I underlined? that's the definition of a late riser
     
  13. forevercursed

    forevercursed Well-Known Member

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    He was never low on the totem pole to begin with. So technically he hasn't even risen that far
     
  14. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    While it's technically 27 for darnold it's really more like 24 becuase the 1st 3 he didn't really play. He completed a total of 14 passes bewteen those 3 games. 24 isn't a lot at all, although I do understand 30 isn't much either for rosen either. but rosen was a 3 year starter who missed time due to injury. darnold wasn't even a 2 year starter
     
  15. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    going from a 2nd round pick to a top 3 pick, is a huge jump
    no reason to be an ass, and some NFL teams stlll ignore these and draft busts all the time, so maybe one should be paying me LMAO

    there really isn't much mayfield hate on here at all, it's just your biased towards him blowing things out of proportion. 99% of the "negatives" I've seen on mayfiled are legit complaints or red flags and said with good points and back-up

    dude 1st off i never tried to get you banned or anyone so not sure where this BS info is coming. I was the one that was unfairly targeted and banned and even at that, when the mods said they would ban the other parties, I told them not to, I don't want to see anyone get banned, lets all just be adults and move on and start fresh. And i can post the PMs for proof if you doubt me. I hate how people spread lies about other people and you should really take a hard look in the mirror at yourself, if you feel the need to do that.

    With that said, While I do like you as a poster, and disagree with your opinion (respectfully) I don't have any issues with you personally. At least you accept there are flaws to all the Qbs and admit as such, unlike a few others here which
    ignore all of baker's flaws for some reason
     
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  16. Harpua

    Harpua Well-Known Member

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    Except Mayfeild has been talked about as one of the top QB's in this class most of the season and without a doubt after the Ohio State game. The only ones considering him a late riser are the ones not paying attention in September and October.
     
  17. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    a 2nd rounder would be one of the top QBs. a big difference though in that and a 3rd overall pick
     
  18. K'OB

    K'OB 2021 TGG Fantasy Football Champ

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    99% of the negatives I have read about Mayfield have come from you, how the hell can you even sit there and say there is not a lot of hate for Mayfield on here, you have barely a good word to say about him.

    Unfairly targeted ?

    There isn't a thread in here that mentions Mayfield without you in it, saying the same things over and over again and have been for at least a month.

    I agree and I generally like your posts but this Mayfield business has turned you into one man cause and as for the bolded bit, there is a flip side to that, you first posted a month or so ago that you had not seen one piece of tape that made you think Mayfield was good, not one, an amazing statement for a guy that has had a brilliant college career.

    This more than anything got you "targeted" targeted lol you put your head on the block with bold statements and you are there to be shot at (a nice mix of metaphors but you get the point)

    Nobody wants to fall out with anybody about it but if you appear in every thread decrying a certain player then posters who like that player are naturally going to come out firing.

    Sure I have said this before and maybe more than once, dementia is becoming a worry.
     
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  19. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    not at all, I've said good things about him and there are probably like another 4-5 posters who see the same flaws i do including one that really likes him

    your comment above proves that

    I don't want to see the jets draft a bust. I love the jets, mayfield has bust written all over him. I'm sorry that i want to see the jets compete year in and year out. I would think we all share that sentiment. I don't care about his college career. You know who else had brilliant college careers? Case keenum, tommy chang, Landry jones, Graham Harrel, Ty Detmer, Kellen Moore, Colt breenan, rakeem cato, corey robinson, coly mccoy, shawn manion, kevil kolb whould i keep going?
     
  20. K'OB

    K'OB 2021 TGG Fantasy Football Champ

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    So nobody can reply to you or it is unfairly targeting you lol really ?

    Also ignoring the part where I say I generally like your posts, but no I am targeting you lol

    The rest is your opinion and others think Allen is the bust, others Darnald and then Rosen etc etc, how many fucking times do you have to be told, your opinion is not fact, no matter how many times you say it.

    As for the busts you have put up, who cares really ? There are going to be plenty of busts, there are always busts.

    You can say the same thing for every single draftee taken in round 1, they are taken in round 1 due to the fact they have had excellent college careers, we all know there will not be 32 stars come out of round 1, so why does your logic only apply to the one man, this is what drives me fucking insane when reading your posts on Mayfield.

    It is all about opinions that is the nature of a message board, you have made yours abundantly clear on Mayfield why do have to continually keep spouting about him, everybody knows what you think by now.

    I have said over and over that I am scared that none of these QB's will be a success, NONE of them, that is what worries me the most.

    Say what you like in reply as I won't be bothering you again about it, I fear it is like banging my head against the proverbial brick wall.
     
    #20 K'OB, Apr 23, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2018
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