I'm ho hum about the OL honestly..it just goes along w the disregard for offense in general. I wasn't thrilled w the OL prospects over the last few years & really didn't have an issue w choosing prospects at stronger position groups bc the cupboard was bare all together. It was about building blocks not need. Very few of the players you listed have me gritting my teeth in envy..many maybe starters but are they really setting the world on fire?? OL talent is devoid league wide in my opinion..perhaps that changes over the next couple drafts as the classes seem much stronger than the last 3.. I'm more upset that the players they did pick haven't worked out & that the offense continues to be a directionless after thought. Darron Lee looks like a truly awful selection..and anyone who thinks the offense isn't on the back burner slept through this past draft when Bowles clearly pounded the table for 2 safeties above all other needs.Mac listened..I have an issue w that..
I guess it isn't surprising with jets fans, but I am not fully understanding the logic of firing mac. he has absolutely made some mistakes, but so has literally every GM. he tore this team down on purpose so we can build it from the ground up, which is a risky move but the right one. we are in place to have our first legitimate franchise QB since Namath (none of that is possible if Mac doesn't cut the veterans and bring in young talent), which is a great step in the right direction. adams and maye have graded out well so far at safety according to PFF and are only going to get better, and leonard williams is a perennial all-pro talent that looks like a leader. he has definitely added young talent that will be leaders into the future and create a culture. i also have heard that he has neglected the offensive line, but i do not necessarily agree. shell was a late pick that is showing some signs of progress, and he signed carpenter who has been solid. you have to remember, we basically have no one from the Idzik drafts, this was a roster completely devoid of talent. we shouldn't get upset at a GM because everything is going according to plan
Almost no one here thinks Macc has done a good job. Some think he's done a mediocre, at best, job; others think he's done a bad job. I think the best argument for keeping him would be "The devil you know is better than the devil you don't". Personally, I would NOT make that argument on his behalf. Why? 1. He's espoused no vision or blueprint for the team. Okay, so he's from the school of "Keep your thoughts and plans to yourself", but who does that serve? Not the fans. It's not like we're asking for keys to the Draft Room! All we want is a clear statement of purpose that we can judge the team's progress against. This is part of what gives us hope, and the encouragement to root for the team, ESPECIALLY when they lose. We can at least say, "Yeah, they lost today, but they're making progress towards their goal; they have some good pieces, and the right coaching to get there". Can anyone say that of the Jets today? 2. Because of #1, he shows no real plan for drafting/signing the right players to achieve it. What I've seen from his drafts is "BPA All The Way Baby!" And for FAs, it's "The Daily Special". The team's biggest need - aside from a FQB - was OL, Pass Rush, Stud RB/WR, Secondary, so what did he do? No OL, no Pass Rusher, No stud RB.WR, but TWO Safeties. He has continued to follow the stupid Jets "plan" of trying to win with "D" and no "O". Now, it may be that he was simply providing what the HC asked for, but based upon Bowles record so far, Macc should've said no. And if he wasn't allowed to say no, he should've quit and made it clear why he was doing so. 3. If the Jets DO fire Bowles and hire an experienced HC with a vision, will Macc adapt to that vision or try to force his on the HC? This would be just a repeat of the dysfunction this team is famous for, and would be so like Woody to repeat. Changing one sock, but not the other, and then wondering why his feet still smell. The Jets need a TOTAL revamp, They need to hire a proven winning football guy as Pres. of Football Ops and allow him to pick his GM and CS. This is the only course of action with a chance of success. Keeping Macc and letting him pick his CS is trusting a guy with no real track record of winning with the most important decision for this franchise, because if he doesn't get it right, this team may finally be abandoned.
Like I always say: he only shops the grocery. Cooking is on the coaches. Don't look far. Look what Johnny Morton did with the scrap heap material. Compare that with what Todd Bowles did with all that high draftees. The difference is clearly visible already. Morton's offense might not be world-beaters, but it is 1. functional and 2. performing as well as it can given the circumstance. Wanna switch the tone? If Todd Bowles was an offensive coach, how much points do you think this Jets team could score? Maybe Maccagnan hasn't done the very best job a GM could have done, but it's clear that he did bring in some quality pieces [1] and the deficiency of some moron [that I'm not going to say who] contributes more to the malfunction of this team than Mac's performance.
I understand with not being thrilled over the OL prospects, and agree that it is a bit of a problem in the NFL, which is surprising considering that the league is so obsessed with passing and colleges are as well. That said, are those starting OL that other teams have drafted better than Beachum and Shell? I'll bet that they are. That difference could make the difference between wins and losses or keeping our starting QB upright and healthy. I think Mac's position has been similar to yours. It's like he's waiting for perfect prospects at some of our positions instead of at least trying to upgrade the talent we have at those positions. We may never get a perfect LT or edge rusher, but we certainly won't if he keeps eschewing those positions early in the draft. We can't keep trotting out JAG FAs at LT (especially older JAGS coming off of a major injury) or mid-to-low round OLB prospects. Now all of that said, I'm not advocating reaching for OL or OLBs. I definitely think that a GM should draft to the strength of the draft as much as possible, but one cannot ignore glaring needs. Yes, we have had a ton of holes and needed building blocks, but a player doesn't have to be a stud or top 10 in the NFL at his position to be a building block. Lee probably was a terrible decision for this team, at least as it is coached by Bowles. If we were playing a 4-3 D alignment and Lee was utilized properly, it could be a great pick. I didn't know much about Lee prior to his being drafted by the Jets and still don't, but posters who do seem to know him have said that he would be best utilized as a weak-side LB in a 4-3 alignment, and that he was used in a freelance manner at OSU, but was used to rush the QB a lot. I would really like to know who wanted Lee. Did Mac fall in love with him because of his speed and athleticism, but not realize that he wasn't a good fit in Bowles' D? Did Bowles covet him and think he could teach him coverage? Was it both of them? I seem to remember a poster or posters positing that Lee was Mac's 2nd choice. That Mac really wanted Tunsil. That could be. If so, that's on Mac for not getting him. If he thought it was a situation akin to when Tanny traded up for Revis and there wasn't anyone that they really liked besides Revis (Tunsil), then he should have been willing to pay whatever to get Tunsil. It's not like there were a lot of great choices after Lee, so probably no team was looking to trade up, and Mac was stuck. After Lee, the choices were Paxton Lynch, three WRs (Will Fuller, Josh Doctson and Laquon Treadwell), two CBs (William Jackson III and Artie Burns), a couple of OGs, and some DTs. I don't know how well those CBs or WRs are doing in the NFL, but know we didn't need a DT, and we weren't gonna use our #1 on an OG when we had Carpenter and Winters. Doctson only appeared in 2 games last year and had 2 catches. Fuller started 13 games last season and had 47 catches and 2 TDs, but hasn't played yet this year. Treadwell appeared in 9 games but only had 1 catch last year. Jackson was on IR last season with a torn pectoral muscle. Burns started 9 of 16 games last season, had 65 combined tackles, 13 passes defensed and 3 interceptions. I don't know if Burns is more of a man or zone CB, but either he or Fuller look like they would have been better choices for the Jets than Lee.
I'll say this..would I rather have one of those ho hom OL starters over Darron Lee right now?Absolutely! I saw a lot of the OL prospects as projects..granted many of them have started out of neccesity but they were a far cry from rounded into form plug n play types. The last thing this fan base wanted was another project.Esp since the prior regime got nowhere w William Campbell & Oday Aboushi. I'll tell you the one guy I really did like & was screaming for rds 4 onward was Christian Westermann.Thought he could be a very good guard in gap but especially zone also thought he could kick over to center in a red shirt. He redshirted his rookie year & was competing w Andre Smith for Cincy's right tackle job this summer!was never quite sure why Mac passed on him
1. Mac doesn't owe anything to the fans. We aren't entitled to his innermost thoughts. He has stated his vision...to build the team through the draft and to add players with high character who are leaders, to improve team speed and add players with high motors. Beyond that, we aren't owed any particulars or regular status reports. Has he improved the team speed? Has he added players of high character and eschewed those of low character? Has he added players who are leaders? Has he added players who are hungry and have high motors? IMO the answer to all of those questions is yes. I believe the team has some good pieces/building blocks upon which they can move forward and improve. Is it perfect? No Is it as far along as I'd like? No Has Mac made mistakes? Yes, but then so does every other GM. John Dorsey made a number of big mistakes with the Chiefs before he was fired. Not every player Ron Wolff drafted was great or panned out. The same goes for Bill Polian, Ozzie Newsome, Kevin Colbert, and Reggie McKenzie. 2. Seriously? Mac should have just quit because he didn't get his way at first? If he quit, that's it. His career is probably over in the NFL, or at least he'll probably never get another shot at being a GM. Conversely, if he goes along, supports Bowles, earns Woody's trust, and then Bowles fails, Mac is in a position to pick up the pieces, hire his own HC and have more power. 3. This is a legitimate question, and a good one. We can't answer that. It would depend upon how much trust Woody had in Mac and how much power he gave him. It would depend upon whom that coach is and what he demanded (and got) in terms of power. If that HC was someone like Payton or Haley, he might demand final say-so on draft picks/talent. Would Woody intercede and grant that to the new HC? If not, that candidate probably wouldn't accept the job. Would Mac be willing to accept that? It could depend upon that HC's philosophy. What if that HC wanted to abandon the Jets' present offensive and defensive systems entirely, which would mean that some of the players Mac has added may no longer be a good fit. Would it be wise for Mac to just go along with that, or should he try to maintain some consistency/stability and try to force or persuade the HC to adapt his vision? Now it would perhaps be best to switch to a 4-3 alignment from the 3-4 alignment. That would probably have Williams playing at either a DE spot or 3T spot where he'd be much more effective. Mo would probably be effective as DT or RDE. Lee would probably be a lot more effective playing weakside LB in a 4-3. Of course, if we switched to a 4-3, then we'd need a MLB and strongside LB. I'm not sure that Jenkins would be fit any longer. Offensively, however it could be the Jets' 3rd offense in 3 seasons. If Petty and Hack have any potential to become a FQB, that would probably set them back. What if the blocking scheme was changed to a power man blocking scheme. We'd possibly have to turn over the entire OL. IMO that would have to be something that Mac and that HC would have to work on together and come up with a plan that caused the least disruption and change in systems. I definitely think that we need a President of Football Operations and Woody needs to completely remove himself from the day-to-day operations or even big decisions of the football team, but you and I both know that in all likelihood, that is not gonna happen.
I am personally sick of fans blaming Bowles for the draft. Does Bowles suck at coaching? Yes. But the draft? That's 110% on Mac, whatever input Bowles has should not no major correlation on whom the Jets selection. If I were a GM, yes I would allow the HC to have input, but the HC wouldn't have a large impact on my draft board. Mac was a big time scout, he should know better. But, he did believe that Hackenberg was BPA over players like Deion Jones and Yannick Ngakoue specifically. Some of us over in the draft board really liked those 2 prospects. The coach and the GM must have a plan, and through 3 drafts both Mac and Bowles have done an awful job trying to paint a picture. We need a GM that has balls and is able to work with the HC to create a plan of action. I understand why fans now hate the BPA idea, its because Mac butchered it
IMO a young player who can start immediately and has upside, is infinitely preferable over an older JAG. Also, imo if a player is able to start immediately, he isn't a project. IMO a "project" label means that the player needs a lot of work before he is ever capable of playing. I think calling all those OTs who are now starting LTs projects is more than a little silly.
Under normal circumstances they would not be starting but demand is high & quality is down..these players maybe starting but would you call any one of them high performing?? Now if you value "plug n play" in early round OL above upside or dominating play..so be it..but you leave yourself very little room for error within your draft valuation if the guy shows up & needs a year in the weight room or practice field. Additionally many of those guys drafted were not traditional plug n plays..they were legit projects who needed major refinement. In my opinion they are being pressed into duty due to shortage of talent & in many cases this will stunt they growth..
Well I DO think a GM owes the fans a vision of what his team will look like. But he doesn't necessarily have to spell it out on words, although it should become clear from the types of players he acquires. Your list of player attributes isn't the same thing. When you think of the Steelers, what types of players do you think of? The Giants; the Packers; the Broncos; the Seahawks; the Patriots. All these teams know what kind of players they want and they get them, regardless of BPA (unless BPA is secondary to their primary philosophy). Macc has espoused no clear plan beyond "I want to get the best players". No shit Sherlock! As for him quitting? Yeah, I overstated there, but maybe that was my subconscious wish coming forward. I agree with your point. Having accepted the job under the terms given he has no choice but to live with them until he either makes it work or gets fired. I don't think he can make it work though and the longer he's there. the longer this dysfunction lasts. We're in agreement on getting somebody knowledgeable to oversee this franchise, but I doubt Woody does this.
You may be right about their all needing major refinement, but if they're better than anyone else the team has on its roster, they'd be dumb not to play them. I doubt it will stunt any of their growth. They will have to learn more quickly and adapt. They will have less time to focus on technique and have to focus more on individual game plans during the season, but they still have the offseason, OTAs, minicamp and TC to focus on technique. IMO simply because a player isn't perfect or plug and play, it would not be wise to pass them up in the draft and play a lesser JAG.
To begin with, I don't think you or any of us can accurately judge Mac in a linear fashion. When he was hired, Mac stated that he planed to build the team through the draft. He also had a mandate to win and return the team to the playoffs. That led him to make certain decisions in FA and the draft as well, as he traded picks for Marshall and Fitz. Thus he was trying to win as much as possible while adding pieces through the draft. There were mixed results in the first two years, but Mac did enough that the team could have and should have made the playoffs in 2015. That's why he won Executive of the Year. He brought the team instant credibility and reversed the circus that had been here. Many of you seem to have forgotten that. That effort failed both because of the lack of talent he inherited and Bowles many failures as a HC. Ultimately it didn't work due to too many holes, too little depth, too little speed, too much age, and too little talent thanks to Tanny and Idzik. He succeeded in convincing Woody over this past offseason that the team needed to be torn down and rebuilt. The approach is pretty much totally different now than it was his first two seasons, so I think that each approach has to be judged independently. He's the only GM the Jets have had in a quarter of a century or more who realized the need to do it, and gets little or no credit for that as well. That process has just begun, and it's way too early to judge him on this segment of his term as GM. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, at least until I can better understand what you're looking for. I think it is abundantly clear from the types of players Mac has been acquiring. Aside from Damore'ea Stringfellow, has Mac added any players of low or really questionable character? No, AFAIK he has not. Adams and Maye are both thought to have very high character and are leaders. Mauldin and Lee may have had incidents this past offseason, but both were thought of as high character players. Adams, Maye and Lee all have excellent speed and athleticism. Petty and Mac both have strong arms and high character. I think that in general, and where possible, Mac has sought to add players with greater intelligence. He has sought to increase competition across the roster, and by and large has succeeded in improving the level of competition. I've said in several posts that I think Mac is too obsessed with BPA and that has caused problems with his drafting. That is something he could learn from, however. Mac moved Richardson in spite of his talent, because of his poor character. Mac obviously passed up Joe Mixon and Dalvin Cook because of their poor character even though both were tremendous prospects at the RB position who could have really helped the Jets. You aren't being clear at all in terms of what those attributes or characteristics are that you think define a GM's vision or plan. What kind of player do you think of when you think of the Steelers, Giants, Packers, Broncos, Seahawks and Patriots? What are those attributes or characteristics that you think is lacking with the Jets (besides that they're better players individually and collectively?
Well, first, while admitting I've not fully defined what types of players he should be looking for, it's because I don't know what HIS vision is. I know what types of players I would look for, but that's not the same. My choices would be based on the FQB I would focus on getting, and then surrounding that guy with complementary players and coaches. I would lean towards high character guys too, but as for athleticism, I think that's too general a descriptor - obviously all players need to be athletic, but first they need to be good at what they do. For example, Lee might be a "great athlete", but in the way he's being asked to play, what good does that athleticism do? In contrast, look at what BB does with the Pats: he has a scheme/system that he uses and finds players to fit that. In some cases, where he might find a special talent that requires a change in his system, he does that - Brady comes to mind. If I were in Macc's shoes, after seeing my bid to make the "competitive rebuild" work, I would've gone full rebuild, and knowing that today's NFL is offense-driven, I would've started there. That's not hindsight, that's what I personally would've done. I can understand why he didn't, but that's not to say I give him a pass - taking Hack, a complete project, with his 2nd pick was stupid, and smacked of trying to "have his cake and eat it too", which never works. As for the teams I mentioned and their styles, all have changed over the years to some degree, but whenever they were winning they had a blueprint. The Steelers - defense and big play offense; Giants - defense and big play offense; Broncos - strong running game; good "D"; Patriots - Brady, and a bend-don't-break "D". As for being "less than clear", if you're objective you'll cop to that charge yourself. Much of your lengthy posts are pretty ambivalent about your assessment of Macc - you go from saying he should be fired, to hedging on that, to actually defending him. That's okay, because his record - unlike Bowles - a mixed bag. But don't go calling the kettle black.
First of all, I wasn't accusing you of anything or criticizing you or calling you anything. I was just trying to point out that you hadn't spelled out what you meant by your criticisms of Mac's plan/vision and type of players, and trying to get you to respond specifically, so I could think about and respond to that. I was also trying to respond to your comment that my list of attributes/characteristics wasn't the same thing as types of players he was trying to acquire. Based on your response, I would say that Mac's vision has primarily been defense. He seems much less clear about what type of offense he's going for, but since both Petty and Hack have strong arms, and he added Marshall, Devin Smith and then Anderson, I'd venture a guess that he may be trying for a "big play" offense. I think Mac is heavily influenced by his experience and time in Houston. The Texans' focus seems to have been largely on Defense with Watt, Clowney and others. On offense, they have had some very good WRs, TEs and RBs, but their OL has been a lower quality and their QBs definitely substandard. If they had a QB anywhere above average, they probably would have won a SB or two by now. Does that make sense? I agree that "athletic" can be vague, but I think in Mac's case it means guys who are faster, more agile over guys like Harris, who have had more of high motor and were hard working, but slower and less agile. I also agree that Lee's athleticism doesn't help much in the way that Bowles is utilizing him. As for Belichik, how many years did it take for him to develop that system? The Texans haven't developed an offensive system like that. It would have been hard for Mac to develop that on his own since he didn't see it done in Houston. I think that's where an offensive-minded HC or a Team President would help Mac in that regard. I definitely am undecided about Mac. My thoughts about him have changed dramatically over the last couple of months and are in a state of flux. I don't deny that. I'm trying to keep an open mind and look at it in a fair, rational, intelligent manner and not let emotions lead the way, but sometimes I can't help it, they do. At this point, whereas I am nervous about his handling of FA and the draft in 2018, I'm not ready to fire him yet. He's done enough good, that with an offensive HC, especially an experienced one, I think he could quite possibly develop into a really good GM. If his draft picks don't develop this year and contribute at a high level or if Hack continues to be shown favor over Petty, then I will be much more inclined to fire him. Were he to be back next year and then screw up FA and/or the draft or hire yet another former DC as HC, then I definitely would want him fired next year. Even though some posters dismiss Woody and his meddling altogether, I'm with Zach in that there's just too much that could be going on behind the scenes that I think Mac deserves the benefit of the doubt for now. We know without a doubt how bad Bowles is. Bowles' incompetence and stubbornness could be making Mac's draft picks look a lot worse than they are.
Since according to some the draft is a crapshoot, this level of success at various levels and at different teams has nothing to do with being a good evaluator of talent. He's just on a 2 and a half decade long streak of luck.
It's deff a crap shoot to some degree but you don't draft, or have a part in drafting the players he has without knowing who can and who cannot ball at the pro level. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I don't know why Mac and Bowles are constantly compared on this board anyway. They have completely different jobs. It's like a restaurant owner keeping a bad cook because he is slightly better at his job than the waiter.
My biggest issue with the Pryor pick, besides the fact it was a low premium position in the 1st round, was that we had serviceable in-the-box safeties already on the roster. It's probably more the former than the latter. Idzik came from Seattle so I can see him trying to use the same formula here. IF we had to draft a safety the choice should have been Ha Ha Clinton-Dix. Like I said we had capable in the box safeties, what we could have used was a center fielding ball hawking type.
