More Hackenberg...

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by Cman68, Jan 7, 2017.

  1. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    If it's uncomfortable for the qb and you aren't getting the protection needed, it'll definitely be an issue.

    That loss of confidence along with the incorrect assessment of changing one's footwork to something unfamiliar can be an issue. Your whole life you were told to drop back a certain way only to have it changed and not work? That's a disaster to me.
     
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  2. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's an "excuse." "Fundamentals" have that designation for a reason...i.e., they are basic, foundation-level aspects of how one plays. If one isn't comfortable and confident in those, there's no way that it won't affect how that player plays his position. Footwork is especially important because it either sets up proper body mechanics and throwing motion or "throws" them out of kilter. Even if one can adjust and feel comfortable in that way, they are going to be very inconsistent due to poor mechanics. The reality is that many, if not most, can't ever truly adjust and feel comfortable/relaxed. It's always in the back of their minds, if not at the forefront. It undermines their confidence, can make them hesitate or rush their throwing motion.

    You know that players play their best when they don't think too much on the field. Their play has to be instinctive and "natural" to them. If those fundamentals are "natural" (what he has always done and feel comfortable), but aren't proper, he will have some success but be inconsistent and never maximize his potential, so must learn the proper fundamentals and practice them until they are "natural" to him. The problem is that some are unable or unwilling to change. It messes their psyche and confidence up. That's why many people didn't want the Jets to take Hack in the first place, and why they didn't want the Jets to take Mahomes in this draft. It's an iffy proposition as to whether Hack can change/fix those fundamentals.

    IMO he seems to be like the kind of person who can and will change his fundamentals. The fact that he stayed at PSU and worked to change them there, even though he struggled and hurt his own draft position, speaks to that character and work ethic. I'm rooting for the kid.
     
    #602 NCJetsfan, May 17, 2017
    Last edited: May 22, 2017
  3. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Well-Known Member

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    I read somewhere "If Hackenberg cannot beat out Josh McCown that is all you need to know". I disagree with that for 1 main reason: Todd Bowles is the coach. In his first 2 seasons, it is clear to see he prefers starting veterans. Even if those veterans are Ryan Fitzpatrick and Josh McCown. Hopefully Hackenberg or even Petty blow McCown out of the water and Bowles' hand is forced. Otherwise, if it is mostly even I assume McCown would get the nod. Just how Bowles is.
     
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  4. FJF

    FJF 2018 MVP Joe Namath Award Winner

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    Not sure this narrative is true.geno was named the starter immediately upon Bowles arrival. Fitz earned the right to start 2016, geno got hurt forced fitz back in,petty got hurt, forced fitz back in.bowles has not had much to turn to over the course of the last 2 years other than the fitz.
     
  5. The Dark Knight

    The Dark Knight Well-Known Member

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    True been an unusual 2 years for the Jets. Might not factor much into 2017.
     
  6. Ralebird

    Ralebird Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure anyone here knows "just how Bowles is." I believe that no NFL organization, even this one, would allow McCown to be the man unless he is substantially better than the other two on opening day.
     
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  7. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    McCown will have the terminology for the WCO down by opening day. He's a career 59.1% passer.

    Those may both be insurmountable achievements for Hack and Petty by opening day.
     
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  8. stinkyB

    stinkyB 2009 Best Avatar Award Winner

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    Who gives a shit.... There is ZERO upside to starting that guy.
    If they're all going to suck, may as well play the young guys to see if there's a chance that they don't.
     
  9. Br4d

    Br4d 2018 Weeb Ewbank Award

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    One way to handle the situation would be to go back to the old tried and true method of putting the young guy in until he makes a big mistake then pulling him for a series or two so the vet can steady the team, then putting the young guy back in again.

    This is how NFL teams with shaky young QB's operated for decades when they actually owned the player's career instead of just the first 4 years of it.

    The Jets could even do that with the two young guys like the Steelers did in 1970 with the two Terry's, Bradshaw and Hanratty. However I don't think the fans would sit through the kind of show that two young QB's alternating produced. Having the vet to get things back on track and steady the offense before you put the young guy(s) back in is what keeps things from degenerating into Keystone Cops out there when the team is facing a competent defense.
     
  10. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    Or you can simplify the playbook, quick reads and take advantage of 2 pass catching backs.

    No sense in benching him after a bad series or 3. Let the kid learn from his mistakes
     
  11. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Woody would care if fans wouldn't sit through it, but I don't. Screw the fans. Mac and Bowles need to do what's best for the team and will help them build a winner, and not care what the fans think. If that means playing the young QBs and letting them struggle some while they develop, so be it. McCown does nothing for this team or its future, and should not see the field unless both Hack and Petty are injured or are incapable of playing at a professional level. If it's the latter, then either Bowles and his staff must go for not getting them prepared, and/or Mac and the Scouting Dept. must go for drafting them in the first place.
     
  12. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! There's a reason that teams don't handle QBs the way they used to. They discovered that it didn't work with today's players and only served to undermine the player's confidence. There often will be rough patches for young players. That's just the nature of the game. They learn and build their confidence by working through those rough patches.
     
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  13. Pags2112

    Pags2112 Well-Known Member

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    That's how I see it. In no way shape or form did I think Hackenberg or Petty were going to be the second coming of Joe Montana, but Quarterbacks do improve over their first few years, so for one it's too early in their careers to evaluate them, though Petty is practically there. What I do think is that this is the year for them to prove the organization has a starter and a backup on the team and that they do not need to draft high in order to fill those needs. Maccagnan had plenty of QB options to choose from in free agency. IMO, to think that this franchise, considering all the factors/circumstances on the table, is banking on McCown to give the Jets the best chance to win is utterly ridiculous. An extra win or two is not going to make a difference, except maybe draft slots. If they were truly about the win now, we would have added a win now QB one way or another. It's clear to see, again IMO and using Mac's, Bowles and Woodys words as proof, this year is going to be about our young players especially the QB's. This year is going to be about players showcasing their progress, winning jobs, and proving that they should remain on the roster. We are gathering cap money and haven't traded any draft picks as in the past. Any players that do not show improve this upcoming year are going to be replaced with equally young or younger talent. Maccagnans first draft class will be the first under the microscope and will either shine or show that they will become second string backups. Some may remain on the team as higher caliber backups that still could win a job and or snaps through competition. It's going to be about rearranging the depth chart, evaluating needs and then making roster decisions based on the years results. Bowles job will not be at risk this year and will be the coach next year. Though if he does not improve himself or the entire coaching staff (including himself) cannot demonstrate they are properly grooming these players, then next year could be his last. I think the only way to get true effort was to declare an open competition and not just handing Pettenberg the job thus possibly not getting 150%. The franchise needs to see just how much they want it and how much they are willing to commit to being the starter. The franchise needs to see if they demonstrate that they can and will continue to improve each year. Young QB's are going to make mistakes, as Petty demonstrated last year. Though considering the amount of left over reps he received up until he started playing, I think he showed enough to warrant a chance to compete for the job. Considering it was stated that all three would be competing and thus getting the same amount of reps, to me shows that they still have faith in Petty. I could actually see Petty getting the nod first, giving Hackenberg more time to develop. Again, I think it's about the two of them showing they both can be the answer. A starter and a backup. If one or both cannot prove to be either or through the course of the year make the franchise think that 2018 will be a good year for one of them, then we will draft accordingly in 2018's draft.
     
    #613 Pags2112, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
  14. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    I was watching NFL LIve the other day and they asked Teddy Bruschi how he approached defending against a rookie (or new) QB. He said they were constantly testing a rookie's ability to recognize various defenses. If a rookie's failure to recognize a particular defensive set led to a mistake, they would continue to exploit the deficiency until it got fixed. He said some rookies were quicker to learn than others. Once the rookie demonstrated he had fixed the problem, they would move on to some other wrinkle to confuse the new guy and so on.

    Therefore, if it's either Petty or Hackenberg under center (and I hope it's one of them rather than McCown), we have to expect that there will be mistakes made. The question will be: how quickly will they be able correct their mistakes?
     
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  15. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    The only thing I disagree with here are your comments regarding Bowles. I don't think that it should be a given that Bowles will be back next year. That has nothing to do with wins and losses, either. Instead, it's about Bowles and how the team looks and plays.

    We all know that the team often was not prepared to play. We know that the team beat itself with mental errors and sloppy play. We know that Bowles was ultraconservative, even passive at times, and was pretty bad in game management, clock management and making adjustments during the game. We know that there were discipline problems last year with Mo and Richardson. Now, today we find out that the team didn't play together and for each other, but instead were just a bunch of individuals. That is totally on Bowles. According to articles today in the Star Ledger - http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2017/05/matt_forte_on_2016_jets_everybody_was_on_field_as.html and and Pro Football Talk - http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...ody-was-out-there-as-an-individual-last-year/

    Matt Forté is quoted as saying that the players were playing "next" to other players, not "for" those other players, and that they didn't know or trust each other. IMO one of the HC's main jobs is to build a sense of comradery and team spirit. Forté and the other 5 veterans over age 30 met with Bowles a lot over the off season to talk about not repeating this mistake in 2017 and changing the team culture. IMO it's disgraceful that players should have to tell the HC how to do his job. It's also disgraceful that the HC can't or won't control the locker room.

    I think that whether Bowles is back in 2018 should depend upon the following things: 1) There should be a true sense of comradery and team spirit. They have no chance of winning if they aren't a united team. If this isn't fixed this year and the locker room and discipline problems from last year continue, the Bowles should not be brought back. 2) The team should be prepared to play for each and every game. No more looking lost, coming out cold, sloppy, inept play. If major progress isn't made here, he shouldn't be back as HC. 3) Bowles' game and clock management skills should show marked improvement. There needs to be a greater sense of urgency, of passion, game plans should be better, and when they don't work, there should be adjustments prepared ahead of time and utilized. 4) Bowles must realize that the focus of this season is to determine if either Petty or Hack can be their franchise QB going forward, to determine which players can help the team going forward and develop those players. It's not about playing "the vets who give the team the best chance to win." If he continues to stick with the vets and starts McCown for any length of time, he must go at the end of the season. 5) There shouldn't be all the miscommunication in the secondary and mental errors. There should be an improved pass rush from the front 7. Players shouldn't be played out of position. Tackling should be better. The D should stop TEs and RBs from killing us over the middle, or at least it should happen a lot less frequently. In short, after all the premium draft picks that have been invested in the D don't pay off and the D doesn't show a quantum leap forward in its play, then Bowles should be fired.
     
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  16. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    Yes, mistakes of that type will be made, but hopefully they will be few. It may be unrealistic, but I think the CS should be able to help prepare Petty and Hack for this kind of thing, and should be able to help them quickly make the necessary adjustments and/or correct any mistakes. Guided film study of the various defensive alignments, blitzes, coverages, etc. and dedicated work in practice should help prepare our young QBs for facing those challenges. That's an area where McCown should be able to help Petty and Hack as well.
     
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  17. Pags2112

    Pags2112 Well-Known Member

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    No I actually agree with you 100 on Bowles. Though unfortunately I think is the case as he is being given all the chess pieces and new coaches to match and why the locker room was cleared out. I don't think his evaluation and, lucky for him and possibly unlucky for us , will be about wins and losses this year but his improvement and that of the team. Besides tackling, though we still need to see improvement (harder due to lack of contact practice time), all that you mentioned above are very addressable. Morton and his uptempo approach hopefully addresses and handles the offense coming out flat. Too many a game have I watched the Jets come out looking like they all had hangovers and were patched together from different teams to play 1 game together.

    Bowles is being given his opportunity this upcoming season just like the opportunity being given to the younger players. The franchise is giving Bowles enough to no longer be able to take excuses. After this season, it's do or die. It's sad to read an article like that and for the Jets and our sake, if Bowles does not improve, they better replace him with a long term answer. The last thing a young team needs is a revolving coach door. Actually if the Jets are not in one way or another preparing for such a possibilty now on the low down, and do not take serious time, effort and resources, the wrong coach could damn this franchise worse than Bowles.
     
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  18. themorey

    themorey Well-Known Member

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    And they stole the signals from the offense so they knew the plays anyway.
     
  19. westiedog1

    westiedog1 Well-Known Member

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    As the saying goes, winning masks a lot of problems. Unfortunately, this coming season doesn't look like it will be able to mask too many problems. With the approach the Jets are taking, you have to give the players some hope that all this losing will have a positive outcome in the near future. So, unless the locker room buys into the youngsters as a potential FQB this season, I think there will be problems. I hope these guys (Petty or Hackenberg) are up to the task, because it seems monumental.
     
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  20. ColoradoContrails

    ColoradoContrails Well-Known Member

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    Frankly, I don't care about them making mistakes, as long as they're making progress an showing an ability to be a winning QB in the not too distant future. All young QBs make mistakes, even those who became HOF'ers. I like Petty's arm, and his moxie, and courage. I don't know if he has the "brains" to learn what he needs to learn to be consistently successful...hopefully we'll see whether he has after he gets enough practice reps with the 1st team, and then plays in live action with a workable game plan. It's not all in his control, but he has to show that he can step up. As for Hackenberg, same thing, although not having seen him play recently who knows if he can regain what he once had, or if he's ruined. I'll say this: I felt a lot more excitement with Petty in the game than Fitz or Geno.
     

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