QB's taken in the first round, instant success or not?

Discussion in 'Draft' started by tbruner12, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    Whens the last time anyone heard something like, "Gee, we would have won a championship if only we had that Franchise RB." You want to know why you never heard anyone say that? Because no one ever has!!!!
     
    xxedge72x, NYJetsO12, JetBlue and 2 others like this.
  2. HomeoftheJets

    HomeoftheJets Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2016
    Messages:
    15,178
    Likes Received:
    22,332
    It's disgusting that Johnny Woman-beater gets another chance and Kap doesn't.
     
  3. boozer32

    boozer32 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2006
    Messages:
    5,648
    Likes Received:
    3,829
    Yeah I agree and it wouldn't matter if the Jets had the #1 pick I don't have any confidence in Macc picking the right one. He's always late and a dollar short in his thinking. We could have been further along if he would have taken a QB last year. Then we woulld be looking at Barkley.
     
    tbruner12 and ColoradoContrails like this.
  4. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2013
    Messages:
    11,351
    Likes Received:
    7,402
    I don't think for a minute that Dorsey believes we are taking Saquon at 3 ..you have to be kidding

    "Letting the QB thing figure itself out" has been going on for the the past 9 years and prob longer

    We are not winning drafting BPA..it hasn't worked
     
    KurtTheJetsFan and boozer32 like this.
  5. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    When we lost the AFC Championship game to the Broncos and Davis ran for 167 yards on us a week after running for 199 against Miami in the divisional round and it was obvious we needed to stop him and couldn't.
     
    FJF likes this.
  6. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    I think you missed the point, RB's are not needle movers in the way a franchise QB's are, by the way, who was the QB on the other side of the ball that game? I rest my case.
     
  7. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    Counselor, you obviously didn't see Denver during their SB runs. If you're going to make a case at least look at the evidence.

    Elway was 12 for 22 for 122 and a 51.9 QBR and 1 INT against Green Bay in the 1997 SB. Davis had 30 carries for 157 and 3 TD's in that game.

    In the AFC Championship game Elway had a scintillating 65 QBR with 13 completions in 34 attempts. He was putrid against us. Davis destroyed us in the second half of that game with 167 yards.

    Elway doesn't sniff a SB without Davis. Davis in 8 playoff games including 2 SB runs had 1140 yards a 5.59 Yards per carry and 12 rushing TD's. Elway was hanging on by a thread. He wasn't HOF Elway when they actually won a SB. They were absolutely carried by Davis in both playoff runs.
     
  8. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    Again you're missing the point entirely. Let me put it to you this way, in general, what is more important to wining, a franchise QB, or a Franchise RB?
     
    JetBlue likes this.
  9. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    In general it takes a great 53 man roster and a really good coaching staff. The NY Giants built two SB teams around an outside linebacker who went 2 in the draft. That's as many as the won around Eli Manning who went 1 in the draft. There is no QB that puts a mediocre GM and HC into a SB.
     
    FJF and tbruner12 like this.
  10. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    You're skirting the question, everyone knows teams have won Super Bowls with average to mediocre QB's, as well as talented defenses, and with other talented skill positions. However once you step away from the anomalies like the 2000 Ravens, you simply can't get away from the fact that Franchise QB's are the single most important ingredient to a teams success.
     
  11. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    11,622
    Likes Received:
    5,835
    Cherry picking a couple of bad games doesn’t change the overall fact that the QB is a greater factor than RB. Not to mention you are still ignoring the fact that the Broncos still had Elway.

    Nobody is arguing Davis didn’t elevate them to SB winner, but are they even a SB contender with Davis but without Elway? It’s an opinion question but I’m interested in whether you are willing to argue they would have been.
     
  12. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    I'll go further, it is an asinine opinion, supported by zero evidence. RB is one of the least valued positions league wide, not because they aren't valuable on the field, but rather because there are so many of them. You can get a decent starting quality RB's in every round of the draft, you don't need an elite running back in today's game. An elite QB is worth ten elite RB's.
     
  13. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    I think the 97 team probably doesn't get to the SB without Elway or a real good QB. The 98 team wins with any mediocre QB. Elway did very little on the 1998 team. Bubby Brister got into 7 games and had 4 game starts that year and Denver won all 4 games with a better QBR than Elway, a better TD to INT ratio and a decent number of throws for comparison. The starter didn't impact TD at all that year. He averaged 125 per game and had 2008 yards rushing. Elway was pretty much a none factor and since Brister was as effective I think it's fair to say it didn't matter in 98. Neither team sniffs the SB without Davis.
     
  14. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    You can't get an elite QB or running back unless they are actually available. You can't get an elite anything unless they are available. Where talking about Barkley who may be a generationally great running back, not just a starting quality running back vs. what is most likely a career backup at best QB. There are so few elite NFL QB's that of course they are way more valuable. Identifying and developing them is also almost impossible. If your building your team on the premise that at some point you're going to fall into an elite QB and continually draft them and develop them you have a shot at actually winning a SB.

    There are also several elite NFL QB's who were drafted and wasted by the teams that drafted them only to get a shot on a good well managed team.

    The greatest show on turf was built with the first overall pick in the draft which was a LT. FYI they also had a generationally great running back that they got in trade along with a HOF QB that they got at Safeway.
     
    tbruner12 likes this.
  15. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    Actually, it's not impossible, just really difficult, and there is no such thing as a "Generationallly great RB", that's just not how the game is played today. It would be monumentally stupid for a team that really hasn't had a true franchise Qb for more than 40 years, to draft a RB at #3 in one of the deepest QB drafts of at least the last decade. There really isn't much more to say.
     
  16. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    That's really the question in a nutshell. The Jets were in the same position last year and took a really nice safety over Watson and Mahomes. You have no clue how deep this draft class is. I like the class, Mayfield may turn into a great NFL QB and as a second round pick nice. Top 3 crazy. Allen nice reach at 15 or over, at 3 crazy. LJ in the top 3 not a chance in hell. It's a two player draft and neither one of them are a better prospect than last years class. Teddy Bridgewater, if he can get healthy is likely as good as any of them.
     
    tbruner12 likes this.
  17. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    We simply disagree on the value of a franchise QB vs a RB. On average there will be at least a half dozen starting quality RB's in this draft with probably another half dozen situation and 3rd down RB's. Not any of them will be as valuable to there team as Franchise QB, and most, no matter how good they are will be on the down side of their careers after five years while a franchise QB is a decade plus these days. You have a right to your opinion, I just think it's flat out ridiculous.
     
  18. Biggs

    Biggs Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2011
    Messages:
    5,902
    Likes Received:
    4,298
    I don't think we disagree at all. I just see this QB draft class differently than you do and Barkley differently than you do. This is a rare mis-match of talent.
     
    tbruner12 likes this.
  19. shasta01

    shasta01 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2018
    Messages:
    255
    Likes Received:
    85
    Fair enough, we'll see how it turns out.
     
  20. JetBlue

    JetBlue Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2004
    Messages:
    11,622
    Likes Received:
    5,835
    He can’t both play and be a martyr. Which do you honestly think is where his goals lie?

    He doesn’t want to play football.
     

Share This Page