Mike M. has to go

Discussion in 'New York Jets' started by jets12, Sep 2, 2017.

  1. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    I was fully against resigning a "2-down nose tackle," at a high cost too. But this isn't just resigning a "2-down nose tackle" at $9 million per year. This was resigning far and away the best nose tackle in the NFL.

    We still have a couple good defensive lineman. But we still haven't really adequately replaced Snacks Harrison. He + one of Wilk/Sheldon/Leo would've been perfect. Now we still have 2 5techniques one of which makes $17 million per year. We can play them both together now but I would've kept the nose tackle. Vince Wilfork was the staple of that New England defense for years while parts moved all around.

    Sometimes you need to keep the anchor well maintained instead of spending that money on a new paint job.
     
  2. tbruner12

    tbruner12 Well-Known Member

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    Thanking him for not being an absolute moron?
    Well at least Mac's requirements aren't too high.
     
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  3. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    There are certain things we know about the draft:

    1) The draft is a crap shoot.
    2) Talented players fail every year.
    3) Even the best, most experienced GMs miss on draft picks.
    4) All any GM can do is his best.

    There are also certain things we know about Mac:
    1) He was highly recommended by Ron Wolff and Charlie Casserly
    2) He has done a pretty good job with contracts. Some players (like Revis) probably shouldn't have been signed, but in Revis' case, Woody probably told Mac to re-sign him regardless of cost.
    3) Mac has structured FA contracts so that if they don't pan out, there are no long-term cap ramifications and the team can move on.
    4) Mac seems to have a vision and plan.
    5) Mac saw the need for a rebuild/youth movement and was able to convince Woody to accept it. No other GM we've had in decades has done that.
    6) Mac has added speed and talent to the roster.
    7) Mac has made some good FA signings
    8) Mac has found talent in the middle and lower rounds of the draft
    9) Hack and maybe Devin Smith are the only "reaches" that Mac has made. He has gone with value. He hasn't taken players rated as 6th round picks in the the 2nd or 3rd round ala Idzik
    10) He hasn't wasted a ton of draft picks trading up like Tanny
    11) Mac has added draft picks by trading down, something Tanny did only one or maybe twice
    12) Mac has done a better job that either Idzik or Tanny in the draft
    13) Mac (or any GM) can't help if players who were never injured in college suddenly become injury-prone in the NFL. There's no way to predict that.
    14) Mac got rid of Bradway and revamped the Scouting and Personnel Depts., something no other recent GM saw the need to do
    15) Mac has a background in scouting and just maybe he knows more about assessing talent than any of us do

    Has he been great? No, but it's unrealistic to think that a rookie GM is going to come in and hit homeruns in his first few drafts. He's certainly been better at his job than Bowles has, and has been better than any GM we've had in a LONG time.

    Conversely, we know the following about Bowles:
    1) We know that Bowles has not run a very tight ship and his attitude about player lateness is slack.
    2) He hasn't had the team prepared to play most games.
    3) He hasn't put players in position to succeed and has played them out of position.
    4) He hasn't been capable to date of making in-game adjustments
    5) He has not been able to manage the clock
    6) He has shown little fire, sense of urgency or passion on the sideline
    7) He seemingly lost the locker room last year, and allowed veteran players to dog it on the field and not try
    8) We know that he has favored veterans over younger players as he thinks that they give the team "the best chance to win"
    9) We know that he has done stupid thinks like punt or kick a FG when we're multiple scores behind in the 4th qtr.

    IMO the evidence is overwhelming against Bowles and in favor of Mac.
     
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  4. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    We also know that Mac has blown two drafts and handed out some absurd contracts that handcuffed us in retaining some young talented players when they were due their cut. It also handcuffed us during two of the better free agency years.

    Bowles sucks too.

    They're both garbage. And I'm dying for this franchise to hire a fucking Coughlin/Parcells/etc. as the VP of football operations so the entire franchise down to the janitors has a vision of success.

    Without that we're round hole square pegging it unless we magically stumble upon a franchise quarterback.
     
  5. jcass10

    jcass10 Well-Known Member

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    No offense, but this seems incredibly biased. So many of your negatives on Bowles cant be proven at all (you have no idea what adjustments he's tried to make that couldnt be executed). And so many positives for Mac are just "he's better than the last guy." I suppose he is better than Idzik, so I'll give you that. However, I'll take Tanny's two playoff runs, and at least he attempted to take a franchise QB.

    What I know is that the Jets right now, have one of the three least talented squads in football. That is 100% on Mac.

    For what its worth, I think they are both below average, and should be gone at seasons end. I dont believe you can justify canning one and not the other.

    But there is probably no point in discussing this further. I believe we both have our opinions pretty firm.
     
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  6. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    Leo pretty much replaced Damon Harrison and he's not even a true NT. He was 2nd in the league in run stops and the only player who came within five total defensive stops of Giants star and former Jet Damon Harrison among all interior defenders.

    Damon had a 10.6M dollar cap hit last season and a 9.6 cap hit this year. I would've kept him but not under that price, regardless all of the contracts thrown out were done 1 or 2 years too late. Mo, Snacks and Leo perhaps could've stayed together if they went and resigned them both a year earlier or so instead of letting the other teams define the market.
     
  7. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Yeah and playing Leo at that spot is nothing but a detriment to his development. He should be solely playing at the 5technique-5i. Not getting beat up by centers on first down, trying to pull piles down.

    No problem with him pass rushing over the center. But you don't want your young stud 3t-type pass rusher two gapping on run downs. That's how you wear them out quick.

    He only had one combined sack in his last 9 games.

    We want this dude to be our Reggie White. Not our Jamal Williams.
     
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  8. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    You want to use Leonard Williams as a player that can disrupt the offensive line and create mismatches. Jets would need to use him in the 5T and the 3T depending on the match-up. Reggie White was the guy that dominated at the 3T. I think the Jets have some decent inside lineman in McLendon. Simon showed something last year, but it appears he didn't improve much.

    I still think a Mo-McLendon-Leo trio would be pretty good, but I would prefer to get someone that can push the pocket back on passing downs and Snacks was not that type of player.

    Leonard Williams is a great player already and thrives by stopping the run game. Now that Mo is healthy, Mo can contribute more often in the run game and open things up for everyone else.

    That's why I like Mo's role on the team. He will make Williams a better player.
     
  9. GasedAndConfused

    GasedAndConfused Well-Known Member

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    outside of the revis deal, mac has done a good job of not overpaying for crap players. give him a chance to rebuild the team. this offseason set the basis
     
  10. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    I totally disagree.

    He has not blown two drafts. For his first draft, he had been on the job for 4 months. Bradway and the previous had done most of the work. It appears that it's gonna wind up not being that good a draft, but Mac took Leonard Williams when he could have taken Kevin White, Ereck Flowers, Trae Waynes, Todd Gurley, or any one of the bums who came afterwards. He can't help it that Devin Smith suddenly became injury prone, when he had no injury history at OSU. He traded down in the 3rd to get an additional pick to try to help depth and took Mauldin. Mauldin showed promise his rookie season. Mauldin thought he was doing the right thing by putting on weight so he could better set the edge, but lost speed and quickness, and now has some injury issues. Again, Mac can't help that. He got Petty in the 4th, and at a minimum Petty is going to be a quality backup, and he could wind up being a quality starter.

    In 2016 he tried to trade up for Laremy Tunsil. Lee is still developing and has a ton of talent. To write him off now is just dumb. He rolled the dice on Hack in the 2nd round. Hack is young and could still develop. We may never know whether another team was going to take him after the Jets in the 2nd round or in the 3rd round before the Jets' turn to pick. I can understand not liking that pick, but again, it's way too young to give up on him. Jenkins is a solid starter at OLB. Burris has shown promise and could wind up being our #2 CB. Shell was taken as a backup with some potential for the future. That's hardly a blown draft. You and some of these other posters are ridiculous with your expectations. You're totally unrealistic.

    What contracts handcuffed us? That's simply not true, neither is your statement that we couldn't retain some talented young players because of it. Revis was given a lot of money, but that was almost certainly at Woody's orders. Woody tampered and was salivating to get Revis back. That's on Woody, not Mac. Fitz got a lot of money too, but Mac was in a no-win situation. His HC, players on the team, and probably Woody all wanted Fitz back. Mac only wanted him back at a reasonable price. GMs who go against their owners and create problems for their HCs don't last long.

    In short, I think your post is utter nonsense.
     
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  11. NYJetsO12

    NYJetsO12 Well-Known Member

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    If and when the Jets reach the promised land of the 2018 draft with a very high pick and grab a FQB the ability to sell the Bowles Mac duo as someone posted should be hard...

    While Mac scored big on the last trade with the Seahawks he is at a crossroads imo ...replacement with a VP of football operations like Vilma posted is best idea going forward...MM just using Jets to learn the trade before moving on...the only thing that will save Mac from the dumpster along with Toilet Bowles is to hit more trade/ deal home runs (tall order me thinks)

    Get Charlie Casserly as VP or Wolfe or anyone with big experience (and get them to want to work here..$$ ??sigh)

    Let's end the experimentation with rookie GM/Coaches
     
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  12. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    Why? Because it's brief, to the point and not a mouthful of excuses created for the guy? Every single paragraph you just wrote and every move was someone else's fault. Revis was on Woody. Hack wasn't his fault. All of the shitty injury prone draft picks well he can't help that.

    All of the contracts are on him. We signed Cromartie, Revis, Skrine and Gilchrist all in one offseason when we easily could've just signed one of them and spread the rest of the money around the team. Instead of just trying Rex & Tanny's dream of the greatest collection of defensive backs ever.

    He's a slight improvement over Idzik. But he still doesn't draft well. The correct way to manage a cap and team is not to come into a perfect cap situation, sign a bunch of aging veterans, and clear it out after two years and start all over again if it doesn't work. That's what Maccagnan has done. Without any sign of sustainable success by replacing players through the draft that depart.
     
  13. HomeoftheJets

    HomeoftheJets Well-Known Member

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    There are also certain things we know about Mac:
    1) He was highly recommended by Ron Wolff and Charlie Casserly
    So was Bowles.
    2) He has done a pretty good job with contracts. Some players (like Revis) probably shouldn't have been signed, but in Revis' case, Woody probably told Mac to re-sign him regardless of cost.
    His two big contracts were Revis and Mo. Not good.
    3) Mac has structured FA contracts so that if they don't pan out, there are no long-term cap ramifications and the team can move on.
    No sane GM gives out contracts that have ramifications beyond a couple years.
    4) Mac seems to have a vision and plan.
    To tank.
    5) Mac saw the need for a rebuild/youth movement and was able to convince Woody to accept it. No other GM we've had in decades has done that.
    See John Idzik.
    6) Mac has added speed and talent to the roster.
    We have the least talented roster in the NFL.
    7) Mac has made some good FA signings
    He's made so many it would be incredible if he hadn't.
    8) Mac has found talent in the middle and lower rounds of the draft
    See #6.
    9) Hack and maybe Devin Smith are the only "reaches" that Mac has made. He has gone with value. He hasn't taken players rated as 6th round picks in the the 2nd or 3rd round ala Idzik
    Two second rounders in three years isn't bad enough for you?
    10) He hasn't wasted a ton of draft picks trading up like Tanny
    Aren't you the one who says he should have traded up for Tunsil?
    11) Mac has added draft picks by trading down, something Tanny did only one or maybe twice
    Not as many picks as Idzik got.
    12) Mac has done a better job that either Idzik or Tanny in the draft
    Tanny drafted Brick, Mangold, Harris, Revis, Mo, etc. Mac drafted Leonard Williams. Advantage Tanny.
    13) Mac (or any GM) can't help if players who were never injured in college suddenly become injury-prone in the NFL. There's no way to predict that.
    Injuries are the least of our picks' worries.
    14) Mac got rid of Bradway and revamped the Scouting and Personnel Depts., something no other recent GM saw the need to do
    Awesome. The new department looks as bad as the old one.
    15) Mac has a background in scouting and just maybe he knows more about assessing talent than any of us do
    If I said that about Bowles, you'd call me a moron.
     
  14. FJF

    FJF 2018 MVP Joe Namath Award Winner

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    [​IMG]
    i didn't feel like just hitting the "like" button gave this enough credit.
     
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  15. jilozzo

    jilozzo Well-Known Member

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    not that anyone cares but i think he has done a slightly subpar job.....the picks of adams and williams at the 6 are picks that i call coma picks - anyone on the planet could have awoke and handed the card in with those names given how things unfolded.

    you earn your stripes in rounds 2 thru 5. based on the current body of evidence, mac is surely not a zebra.
     
  16. 101GangGreen101

    101GangGreen101 2018 Thread of the Year Award Winner

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    [​IMG]
     
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  17. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    The Texans have won the South 4 out of the past 6 years without stellar quarterback play. Let's see what it looks like.

    2008
    1 - T Duane Brown starter
    2009
    1 - LB Brian Cushing 4 year starter
    2 - LB Connor Barwin 2 year starter (11.5 sacks in one)
    3 - S Glover Quinn 4 year starter
    6 - CB Brice McCain 5 year depth
    2010
    1 - CB Kareem Jackson 7 year starter
    2 - RB Ben Tate 3 year backup
    2011
    1 - DE JJ Watt 6 year starter, generational player
    2 - LB Brooks Reed 4 year starter
    5 - QB T.J. Yates 5 games started rookie year, backup
    7 - T Derek Newton 5 year starter
    2012
    1 - OLB Whitney Mercilus 4.5 year starter
    3 - G Brandon Brooks 4 year starter
    4 - C Ben Jones 3 year starter
    5 - K Randy Bullock 4 year starter
    2013
    1 - WR DeAndre Hopkins top 5 NFL receiver
    2 - S DJ Swearinger 2 year starter
    6 - TE Ryan Griffin 3 year starter-ish

    There are starters all over that draft history. They're not even a top tier team, but they're a comparable franchise because they too have shit quarterback play. The one year they passed up Derek Carr as 32 other teams did (in the first round). Outside of that they haven't had a chance to really draft one. Bortles was not the pick at in 2014.
     
  18. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    If you think Mac could go against Woody's orders and keep his job for long, then I don't know what to tell you. If you think Woody tampered and was publicly salivating to get Revis back, and then think he didn't order Mac to re-sign Revis regardless of cost, then again, I don't know what to tell you.

    There are reasons decisions and moves are made. Not all reasons are excuses, and you're looking at everything in hindsight and through the vantage point of a frustrated fan, and not a professional.

    With all the cap space the Jets had and had to spend, if Mac had only signed one FA DB after having had the worst secondary in the NFL the year before, and with Woody demanding the playoffs then Mac probably would have been fired after his first year or would have had posters like you screaming that he should be fired. Saying he should have signed just one FA DB is laughable.

    The truth is that it doesn't matter whom the Jets hire, many of you guys have unrealistic expectations and are ready to fire him as soon as he starts. You can't wait to criticize each and every move and show other posters how smart you are.

    Tell you what, why don't you tell us how you would have handled the team the last 3 years. Who you would have taken in the draft, which FAs you would have signed. You even have the advantage of hindsight having seen how FAs performed with their new teams, and how draft picks have panned out to date, and you wouldn't have to know what Woody wanted/demanded or answer to Woody if he didn't like the moves you made.
     
  19. NCJetsfan

    NCJetsfan Well-Known Member

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    1. I'll cede this point
    2. I disagree. Mo earned that deal. There's no way that Revis' deal wasn't all Woody.
    3. Well, I guess that means Tanny is insane, because he certainly did. His modus operandi was kicking the can down the road.
    4. He is not tanking. That's ridiculous.
    5. John Idzik did not try to rebuild. That's flat out untrue. John Idzik had no idea what he was doing, period.
    6. So says the media. We'll see when the season's done how untalented the roster is. Even so, we all know how bare Tanny and Idzik left the cupboard, and that it was going to take a number of years to fix it. To try to lay all that on Mac is disingenuous. It's hard to turn over the roster and fix the talent deficit when your owner is screaming make the playoffs when you have a bunch of impatient, frustrated, and irrational Jets fans foaming at the mouth.
    7. Idzik managed not to. You guys don't want to give Mac credit for anything good he's done. You're dishonest and biased.
    8. See #6
    9. I will never fault a GM for doing anything he can to find a QB. How many bad 2nd round picks have Tanny, Idzik and other previous GMs like Parcells made? For that matter, how many times did Tanny ever even have a 2nd round pick because he had traded it away to move up?
    10. I said he tried to trade up for Tunsil, showing that he did try to improve the OL. I didn't say that he should have traded up. A 1st, 2nd and 4th round pick were too much to move up 10 spots or so. Don't twist my words.
    11. How many of the picks that Idzik had were a direct result of moves he made, and how many were a result of moves that Tanny had made or resulted from factors such as Idzik trying to sign FAs and failing, or his failing to re-sign Jets players? Further, what did he do with those 12 picks?
    12. Bullshit. You're comparing a GM who had what 7-8 drafts against a GM who's had 3? When you burn as many draft picks as he did trading up, you damn well better get good players. Parcells probably should get credit for Brick and Mangold, and Mangini probably should get credit for some of the others.
    13. Funny that's what some posters complain the most about
    14. Again, Bullshit.
    15. Bowles has clearly demonstrated that he is incompetent in almost every phase of his job. Mac has made some mistakes, and has been a mixed bag, but is nowhere near as incompetent as Bowles.
     
  20. Jonathan_Vilma

    Jonathan_Vilma Well-Known Member

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    We're not tanking? Dude. I can't even read the rest. This is the worst roster the NFL has seen in maybe the past ten years. It is so devoid of talent it's wild.

    Btw. Parcells was gone for 6 years when we drafted Brick & Mangold. Al Groh had more to do with drafting those two than Parcells. And he had 0 to do wit it.
     
    #100 Jonathan_Vilma, Sep 7, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2017
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