Tebow fine-tuning throw with ex-MLBer [Archive] - TheGangGreen.com Message Board

catsigater

07-22-2012, 08:58 PM

Tebow fine-tuning throw with ex-MLBer -- Sat Jul 21 1:10 pm -- (To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.)

Former pitcher helped Tom Brady and Drew Brees with mechanics

Tim Tebow is in the House. The Jets' reserve quarterback with the unorthodox throwing motion is working with former major league pitcher Tom House on the campus of the University of Southern California this week.

Tebow is expected to be deployed in a multitude of ways by new offensive coordinator Tony Sparano, and to push Jets starter Mark Sanchez, who played at USC, for playing time when training camp commences July 27.

House is known as an innovative coach. He has had pitchers throw footballs on their off days and travels abroad as a consultant, having devoted his career to baseball pitching research. He has written five books, including “The Art and Science of Pitching” as well as “Fit to Pitch,” and employs three-dimensional analysis.

Saints quarterback Drew Brees was the first NFL quarterback to seek House’s input, and high-profile slingers like Tom Brady and Carson Palmer followed suit. (New York Daily News)

Apple Jack

07-22-2012, 09:19 PM

Here's a bit more detail on the week long session. Sorry, I can't post links yet.

Tim Tebow works with Tom House

LOS ANGELES -- New York Jets quarterback Tim Tebow has been working out with a throwing guru on the campus of the University of Southern California for the past week.

Tebow, the Jets' big offseason acquisition, has spent the past five days making adjustments to his throwing motion under the tutelage of Tom House, a former major league pitcher now working as a volunteer pitching coach at USC.

The workouts have been conducted at USC's gated-off Howard Jones Field, and media have not been allowed to watch per Tebow's request, House said.
Tebow had his last mechanics session with House on Friday and plans to fly back to New York this weekend. The Jets begin training camp on Thursday in Cortland, N.Y.

House has worked with a number of other prominent NFL quarterbacks this offseason, including Tom Brady, Alex Smith and Carson Palmer.

New Orleans Saints quarterback Drew Brees was the first quarterback to visit with House, in 2003, when Brees played for the San Diego Chargers.

The typical quarterback's schedule is a weeklong program at the Rod Dedeaux Research and Baseball Institute on the USC campus, where 3D video analysis is used in coordination with traditional drills to break down individual motions to a thousand frames per second and discover small inconsistencies or errors.

House said Friday he believes Tebow benefited from the week's worth of workouts.
"I think he's getting better, but the proof is in the pudding," House said. "Being out here at USC is different than being with the New York Jets."

Tebow and USC coach Lane Kiffin share the same agent, Jimmy Sexton of L.A.-based Creative Artists Agency. Sexton originally arranged for Tebow to work out on the school's campus last month, and the controversial third-year quarterback began throwing on his own then and using the university's weight room.

A Trojans' program source told ESPNLosAngeles.com that Tebow has used USC receiver Marqise Lee as one of his targets during throwing sessions. Lee is a talented sophomore expected to be a top pick in the 2014 NFL draft.

Current Jets receiver Patrick Turner, who also played at USC, has caught passes from Tebow, as well.

CowboysFan

07-23-2012, 10:27 AM

He needs to stop making changes to his motion, enough already, he needs to play instinctively especially from a run first red zone offense (sigh)

metsnjets

07-23-2012, 10:47 AM

He needs to stop making changes to his motion, enough already, he needs to play instinctively especially from a run first red zone offense (sigh)

Its not him, I am sure he is being told by coaches etc... that in order for him to be a starter in the NFL (longterm) he needs to address it. I agree with you, he needs to be what he is and be ok with it at this point.

catsigater

07-23-2012, 11:07 AM

He needs to stop making changes to his motion, enough already, he needs to play instinctively especially from a run first red zone offense (sigh)
I disagree. If Brady, Brees. et al. can work on their motion, why can't Tebow?

Potzer

07-23-2012, 11:50 AM

Eh he needs to work on it. I wish we could just assume that he was, and weren't reading a story a month about how he's doing it in secret.

Any improvements in consistency will yield big results for the jets, and Tebow as a player.

metsnjets

07-23-2012, 12:21 PM

I disagree. If Brady, Brees. et al. can work on their motion, why can't Tebow?

Because they are just refining or making minor adjustements to good motions and quick releases. Tebow is doing a major overhaul. He needs to refine what he has and live with it.

Think of it like Brees, et al ... are painting their house. Where Tebow is doing a complete tear down and rebuild.

The Uniform Bomber

07-23-2012, 12:43 PM

Just for clarity's sake, can someone specify all of the stuff that constitutes his "throwing motion" that he's working on?

catsigater

07-23-2012, 12:50 PM

metsnjets

07-23-2012, 12:53 PM

You're speculating. Tebow may very well be "refining what he has."

He could be.

catsigater

07-23-2012, 12:57 PM

He could be.
I don't know, either. And I somewhat agree that a complete overhaul seems too high of a mountain to climb, but I actually think if that's his plan, this may be a good time to do it.

If he were still with the Broncos and going into TC as the starter, I'd say "no major overhauls" would be smart, but assuming he's at least a year away from a starting job, he's got time to do more extensive work.

stinkyB

07-23-2012, 01:19 PM

maybe he should just meet with RA Dickey, and save some travel time. He already throws a pretty good knuckleball.

Bannon

07-23-2012, 01:50 PM

Just for clarity's sake, can someone specify all of the stuff that constitutes his "throwing motion" that he's working on?

I think number one it's his footwork, how to place his body and feet for all of the throws (quickly). Number two, I think his wrist still needs work. I hear Tom Brady obsessing about making a "C" with your hand during the throw, not a "U." A C helps you stay on top of the ball and generate spin, and keeps the ball from being able to flop because your wrist can't bend in the direction of flight when your hand is making a "C." When you place your hand under the ball, like a "U," like you're holding a pizza box, the nose of the ball can waiver. And you can snap down and generate as much spin.

But you can't just "decide" how to hold your wrist and the ball. It starts with the carry, and the pre-load, and everything. The whole motion has to be conducive to it. Everything needs to be firm, inside, and quick. Nothing flopping out there.

The Uniform Bomber

07-23-2012, 02:08 PM

I think number one it's his footwork, how to place his body and feet for all of the throws (quickly). Number two, I think his wrist still needs work. I hear Tom Brady obsessing about making a "C" with your hand during the throw, not a "U." A C helps you stay on top of the ball and generate spin, and keeps the ball from being able to flop because your wrist can't bend in the direction of flight when your hand is making a "C." When you place your hand under the ball, like a "U," like you're holding a pizza box, the nose of the ball can waiver. And you can snap down and generate as much spin.

But you can't just "decide" how to hold your wrist and the ball. It starts with the carry, and the pre-load, and everything. The whole motion has to be conducive to it. Everything needs to be firm, inside, and quick. Nothing flopping out there.

Word. Thanks for the detailed explanation; I've never heard that about the "C" and "U." Good stuff.

Is he also working on the speed of his release?

Demosthenes9

07-23-2012, 02:34 PM

I think he's already done the "complete overhaul" back before he was drafted and he's continued to work on it. There's still some hitches to be worked out, and that's what he's doing now.

The bigger thing is that these changes haven't been totally committed to muscle memory, which is why he would revert back to his old motion late in games. Ironically enough, that's when he was more productive as well :)

The again, his stroke looked pretty good against the Steelers, which leads me to believe that if/when these mechanics do become ingrained, and he no longer has to think about them, he might just be pretty good :)

catsigater

07-23-2012, 02:58 PM

The bigger thing is that these changes haven't been totally committed to muscle memory, which is why he would revert back to his old motion late in games. Ironically enough, that's when he was more productive as well
Yep, you can be more productive reverting back to your old ways when learning new ones. The question is, are you willing to go through a painful period of looking and performing even worse, for a time, in the confidence that you can make the changes you seek permanent?

Which is why I think if he really wants to commit to seeing a complete overhaul all the way through, now is the time to do it, when he's not the starting QB.

Backup QB

07-23-2012, 03:29 PM

His throwing motion is fine, but I think there is a lot of utility in seeking to improve no matter who it is and how good they are.

whichfan

07-23-2012, 03:41 PM

Because they are just refining or making minor adjustements to good motions and quick releases. Tebow is doing a major overhaul. He needs to refine what he has and live with it.

Think of it like Brees, et al ... are painting their house. Where Tebow is doing a complete tear down and rebuild.

Thats not what House said in ESPN's First Take interview.

House said because of Tebow's intangibles most people left him alone and never bothered to teach him the basics purely because he found a way to win.

He didn't say he had to re-work everything. He said he was never tought to begin with. If true, then starting with a blank canvas is actually far better than trying to re-work Brady's motion.

Apple Jack

07-23-2012, 06:55 PM

whichfan

07-23-2012, 06:59 PM

Thanks Whichfan. That was a good listen. House didn't sound like "coach speak." Sounded optimistic that the mechanics could be fixed. But cautioned that the application of the mechanics with footwork in a game scenario was outside his realm of expertise and that it was all up to "the kid."

No prob. And yeah I would imagine footwork is something that should be left up to the offensive coordinator because it's directly tied in with whatever offensive plays they plan on implementing. House sounded like he knew what he was doing.

Bannon

07-23-2012, 07:52 PM

Thats not what House said in ESPN's First Take interview.

House said because of Tebow's intangibles most people left him alone and never bothered to teach him the basics purely because he found a way to win.

He didn't say he had to re-work everything. He said he was never tought to begin with. If true, then starting with a blank canvas is actually far better than trying to re-work Brady's motion.

I just listened to it -- that was great. But I wish he'd found him earlier.

TTTTebowAndTheJets

07-23-2012, 08:13 PM

I just listened to it -- that was great. But I wish he'd found him earlier.

Do you or anyone else have a link? I can't find the interview.

Apple Jack

07-23-2012, 08:16 PM

I just listened to it -- that was great. But I wish he'd found him earlier.

Like in pop warner, no?

Bannon

07-23-2012, 08:18 PM

Do you or anyone else have a link? I can't find the interview.

About the 40 minute mark of this audio.

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TTTTebowAndTheJets

07-23-2012, 08:19 PM

About the 40 minute mark of this audio.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Thanks! :beer:

Bannon

07-23-2012, 08:21 PM

Like in pop warner, no?

Yeah, but I think it's an ongoing thing that quarterbacks need to keep doing as they go to a new level.

I'm not one of those that thinks he was always terrible throwing the ball. He looked fine on videos in high school, shattered records. He looked fine at the Nike camp when he was a phenom. Mechanically he looked good, same as everybody.

His mechanics have warped over time because he's played in an offense that utilizes his abilities as a human bulldozer. He's used to crushing that ball like a beer can, and throwing it only if there's plenty of time and a a receiver that's pretty open. It degraded his mechanics and footwork, and he needs to improve.

Apple Jack

07-23-2012, 08:50 PM

I'm not one of those that thinks he was always terrible throwing the ball. He looked fine on videos in high school, shattered records. He looked fine at the Nike camp when he was a phenom. Mechanically he looked good, same as everybody.

That actually helps me think he CAN improve. It also aligns with what House said, that he really hadn't been taught bad fundamentals. Rather, he was never taught correct fundamentals.

Demosthenes9

07-23-2012, 10:59 PM

Yeah, but I think it's an ongoing thing that quarterbacks need to keep doing as they go to a new level.

I'm not one of those that thinks he was always terrible throwing the ball. He looked fine on videos in high school, shattered records. He looked fine at the Nike camp when he was a phenom. Mechanically he looked good, same as everybody.

His mechanics have warped over time because he's played in an offense that utilizes his abilities as a human bulldozer. He's used to crushing that ball like a beer can, and throwing it only if there's plenty of time and a a receiver that's pretty open. It degraded his mechanics and footwork, and he needs to improve.

Have to disagree here. Tebow has always had "bad mechanics", from what I have seen, they just didn't impede him at the high school and college level. The offense he ran at Florida was very similar to the spread option that he ran at Nease. His Senior year, he passed the ball for 3302 yards, an avg of 254 ypg, but he also ran for 1163 yards, an avg of 89.5 ypg.

Here's a nice vid from Way Back When (Max Preps ?) To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.!videoid=f67e8823-98b1-fd52-76ef-6f4a6bd5a314

JET'S_my_name

07-24-2012, 07:59 AM

Check out 1:34 and 1:40. To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

DarrelleRevis,Human?

07-24-2012, 08:28 AM

Regardless of what people say and whether you like it or not, I strongly believe Tebow is the future at QB for us.

So I want him to work out all the kinks before he takes over that role.

catfish

07-24-2012, 09:30 AM

Check out 1:34 and 1:40. To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

I am far from an expert, but to me his motion looks better there than it did before the draft. Maybe I don't know what I am looking at?

catfish

07-24-2012, 09:39 AM

Check out 1:34 and 1:40. To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

I think House will be able to correct his throwing motion, the guy still needs to learn to anticipate better and pull the trigger. A pretty throwing motion isn't going to mean anything if he doesn't do that. House also says he did nothing with footwork, just throwing motion. Tebow is still a young QB so there is a chance he can develop the things he needs with time, but I don't think throwing motion is the big problem

metsnjets

07-24-2012, 10:05 AM

I think House will be able to correct his throwing motion, the guy still needs to learn to anticipate better and pull the trigger. A pretty throwing motion isn't going to mean anything if he doesn't do that. House also says he did nothing with footwork, just throwing motion. Tebow is still a young QB so there is a chance he can develop the things he needs with time, but I don't think throwing motion is the big problem

Its a small part of the overall issue. I would put his throwing motion at about 15% of the issue, the other other 85% is footwork, torso positioning,pre-snap read and post snap decision making.

I have always said his throwing motion is the least of his worries. You can have the sweetest arm in the world but if you cant get your feet / torso positioned correctly it doesn't matter as you will always be fighting yourself to deliver the ball correctly and if you fix those three things and you still cant read a defense or make the correct decision in a very short window, you still wont be successful.

QB in the NFL ain't no joke. Its why a few are great and so many bust.

ItsTime

07-24-2012, 11:04 AM

Its a small part of the overall issue. I would put his throwing motion at about 15% of the issue, the other other 85% is footwork, torso positioning,pre-snap read and post snap decision making.

I have always said his throwing motion is the least of his worries. You can have the sweetest arm in the world but if you cant get your feet / torso positioned correctly it doesn't matter as you will always be fighting yourself to deliver the ball correctly and if you fix those three things and you still cant read a defense or make the correct decision in a very short window, you still wont be successful.

QB in the NFL ain't no joke. Its why a few are great and so many bust.

True with the mechanics, but even with those awkward mechanics he turned around a terrible franchise's fortunes.
As far as the decision making, while overly conservative, you can't argue with the successful results. A 2 to 1 td/ int ratio is very good for an established NFL qb, nonetheless one in his first string of starts. Sanchez hasnt even sniffed such a nice td/int ratio. His first season he was an atrocious 12tds to 20ints. Last year he threw 18 ints. That is somebody that you need to be concerned about his decision making.
Tebow was overly tentative in the passing game, still getting a feel for it on the NFL level. Even so , he did some remarkable things, the game will slow down for him, and when it does.............

metsnjets

07-24-2012, 11:46 AM

True with the mechanics, but even with those awkward mechanics he turned around a terrible franchise's fortunes.
As far as the decision making, while overly conservative, you can't argue with the successful results. A 2 to 1 td/ int ratio is very good for an established NFL qb, nonetheless one in his first string of starts. Sanchez hasnt even sniffed such a nice td/int ratio. His first season he was an atrocious 12tds to 20ints. Last year he threw 18 ints. That is somebody that you need to be concerned about his decision making.
Tebow was overly tentative in the passing game, still getting a feel for it on the NFL level. Even so , he did some remarkable things, the game will slow down for him, and when it does.............

2/1 TD int is good if youre throwing for more than 1TD per game in a PASS HEAVY league. Right now Tebow is on the ALEX SMITH trajectory. Is that reall what you hope to get?

ItsTime

07-24-2012, 09:27 PM

2/1 TD int is good if youre throwing for more than 1TD per game in a PASS HEAVY league. Right now Tebow is on the ALEX SMITH trajectory. Is that reall what you hope to get?

No, right now he as a passer is already where Alex Smith is after about 5 years in the league. Don't forget he also gets you 5 and a half yards a carry on the ground. If you project Tebow's rushing stats last season over 16 games your at just under a 1,000yd clip. That kind of dual threat is something that could be really dangerous once the passing games slows down for him, and it will.

#1 Jets Fan

07-25-2012, 02:29 AM

I am far from an expert, but to me his motion looks better there than it did before the draft. Maybe I don't know what I am looking at?It easy to keep throwing that way when u don't have anybody trying to sack u. He changed it a little last season until he got in games and went back to his old ways.

TNJet

07-25-2012, 04:56 AM

Regardless of what people say and whether you like it or not, I strongly believe Tebow is the future at QB for us.

So I want him to work out all the kinks before he takes over that role.

I agree. I want a QB who is constantly striving to get better rather than one who just wants to be a celebrity.

Apple Jack

07-25-2012, 09:21 AM

I agree. I want a QB who is constantly striving to get better rather than one who just wants to be a celebrity.

I think you were trying to slam Tebow but it was difficult to tell as the topic on point was precisely about Tebow trying to get better by working out with House....

metsnjets

07-25-2012, 01:16 PM

No, right now he as a passer is already where Alex Smith is after about 5 years in the league. Don't forget he also gets you 5 and a half yards a carry on the ground. If you project Tebow's rushing stats last season over 16 games your at just under a 1,000yd clip. That kind of dual threat is something that could be really dangerous once the passing games slows down for him, and it will.

True but if he passes more he runs less. Which means his rushing stats dwindle. Look at the last few games from last year, people really limited what he did on the ground and the air..hence the 1-4 record.

In those games he had a rushing total of 206 (41 ypg average) In the previous 5 he had totals of 240 and (48 ypg average) and the previous to those5 games he had totals of 356 yards (71 YPG average) all the while his attempts per game remained fairly steady at 9-11 rushes per game. (9 attempts last 5 / 11 attempts mid 5 / 11 attempts per game in first 5)

I think the slow down in yards per game (his two lowest games 2.6 / 2.7 came in his last 5 games, as well as his 5th worst game at 3.4) are in direct correlation to defenses figuring him out. Amazingly enough 3 of his worst 5 passer ratings also came in those games.

He also went 4td / 4 fumbles lost in rushing and 3TD / 4int in those 5.

Demosthenes9

07-25-2012, 01:21 PM

True but if he passes more he runs less. Which means his rushing stats dwindle. Look at the last few games from last year, people really limited what he did on the ground and the air..hence the 1-4 record.

In those games he had a rushing total of 206 (41 ypg average) In the previous 5 he had totals of 240 and (48 ypg average) and the previous to those5 games he had totals of 356 yards (71 YPG average) all the while his attempts per game remained fairly steady at 9-11 rushes per game. (9 attempts last 5 / 11 attempts mid 5 / 11 attempts per game in first 5)

I think the slow down in yards per game (his two lowest games 2.6 / 2.7 came in his last 5 games, as well as his 5th worst game at 3.4) are in direct correlation to defenses figuring him out. Amazingly enough 3 of his worst 5 passer ratings also came in those games.

He also went 4td / 4 fumbles lost in rushing and 3TD / 4int in those 5.

What Tebow needs to do is become more consistent in his passing. Once he does so, games like the one against Pitt will become more of a norm. Stack the box to contain his running ? He'll beat you with his passing. Drop back to defend the pass ? He'll beat you on the ground.

Along with this, the OC needs to call constraint plays to keep the defense honest. This is something that McCoy didn't do last year for the most part. There's also ways to attack defenses and have the offensive scheme dictate the kind of coverage that the defense can play.

I'm willing to wager that Sparano and company have a better understanding of this than McCoy did.

catfish

07-25-2012, 01:27 PM

It easy to keep throwing that way when u don't have anybody trying to sack u. He changed it a little last season until he got in games and went back to his old ways.

I guess my point was at the time this was shot no one had mentioned his throwing motion much less been working on it with him, so why would he use a different motion than his every day one. It appears he developed the "bad" throwing motion in college.

LongTimeJetsFan

07-25-2012, 01:30 PM

What Tebow needs to do is become more consistent in his passing. Once he does so, games like the one against Pitt will become more of a norm. Stack the box to contain his running ? He'll beat you with his passing. Drop back to defend the pass ? He'll beat you on the ground.

Along with this, the OC needs to call constraint plays to keep the defense honest. This is something that McCoy didn't do last year for the most part. There's also ways to attack defenses and have the offensive scheme dictate the kind of coverage that the defense can play.

I'm willing to wager that Sparano and company have a better understanding of this than McCoy did.

Tebow is going to become a more consistent punt protector, not a more consistent passer.

Backup QB

07-25-2012, 02:51 PM

Tebow is going to become a more consistent punt protector, not a more consistent passer.

Lol. I think you are saying it to yourself so much that you are actually starting to believe it. I can't wait until the day he is named starter. As Bart Scott said... "CANT WAIT"

Demosthenes9

07-25-2012, 05:30 PM

Tebow is going to become a more consistent punt protector, not a more consistent passer.

You going to cry r shoot yourself when Tebow ends up with a passing percentage of 58% or greater ?

LongTimeJetsFan

07-25-2012, 06:10 PM

Lol. I think you are saying it to yourself so much that you are actually starting to believe it. I can't wait until the day he is named starter. As Bart Scott said... "CANT WAIT"

Yea, I'm the one who's not in touch with reality. Tebow's multiple roles on this team sure don't sound like someone who is going to be given serious consideration as a starting qb. But why bother with facts when you can pretend he's destined for the starting QB position.

Get a grip, he's our utility knife, not our qb.

#1 Jets Fan

07-25-2012, 08:16 PM

You going to cry r shoot yourself when Tebow ends up with a passing percentage of 58% or greater ?What u been praying for a mircale? Lol I think Tebow doing the same.

Demosthenes9

07-25-2012, 10:00 PM

What u been praying for a mircale? Lol I think Tebow doing the same.

Actually, I'm thinking that he will develop consistency with his reworked mechanics.

I mean, since he had higher college career completion % than Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and Mark Sanchez, who says he can't regain that ?

catsigater

07-25-2012, 11:06 PM

metsnjets

07-26-2012, 11:32 AM

Actually, I'm thinking that he will develop consistency with his reworked mechanics.

I mean, since he had higher college career completion % than Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, Matt Stafford, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, and Mark Sanchez, who says he can't regain that ?

His percentage was in direct correlation to the OFFENSE specifically structured for his abilities played ROUTINELY against extremely OVERMATCHED opponents.

WTF is so hard for you to understand? his college stats MEAN NOTHING. What does he look like in the Pros? Does he look like anyone of those guys you mentioned? NO. Why? Because he lacked the basic fundamentals they had because he lived on his physical ability and never learned the position.

My god man. You seem smart enough to get it. Let me say it one more time.

COLLEGE SUCCESS doesnt EQUAL NFL SUCCESS.

catsigater

07-26-2012, 11:45 AM

metsnjets

07-26-2012, 11:47 AM

No, it doesn't. Just like in any other endeavor, past performance doesn't assure future success. It's an indicator, not a guarantee.

And I would agree 100% IF Tebow had run a more pro-style sort of offense. But he didn't. There are plenty of examples of very successful college QB's that have run spread, option, pistol and other various types of offense that struggle in the pro system.

catsigater

07-26-2012, 11:55 AM

And I would agree 100% IF Tebow had run a more pro-style sort of offense. But he didn't. There are plenty of examples of very successful college QB's that have run spread, option, pistol and other various types of offense that struggle in the pro system.
Yep, there are. There are also quite a few who've successfully made the transition. Guess what, there are also examples of QBs who won in college running a pro-style offense that struggle in the NFL.

Like I've said ad nauseum already, if you think Tebow won't ever be a legitimate starting QB, you certainly have evidence to back that up.

And as I've also noted, 1.18 more completions per game and the guy's at 55%. A couple of the drops last year would've been game winners. I'm of a mind that he will improve his mechanics and become better at reading pass coverages, which are his two biggest challenges.

If he does, then his other attributes will make him tough to beat. If he doesn't, he'll be a career H-Back, punt protector, occasional wildcat QB.

Backup QB

07-26-2012, 11:56 AM

COLLEGE SUCCESS doesnt EQUAL NFL SUCCESS.

Don't know why you are always acting like you own this mode of thinking or phrase. We all have known that before you said it.

But here is my annoyance with that saying... players are drafted to professional sports based on high school and/or college performance. Are you going to join the Colts forum and start spewing off about how it is a mistake to draft Andrew Luck?

And don't be ridiculous and say "well, he played in a pro-style offense" or "he has great mechanics". There are plenty of NFL BUSTS who had great college numbers, mechanics, and played in a pro-style offense.

Demosthenes9

07-26-2012, 12:02 PM

His percentage was in direct correlation to the OFFENSE specifically structured for his abilities played ROUTINELY against extremely OVERMATCHED opponents.

WTF is so hard for you to understand? his college stats MEAN NOTHING. What does he look like in the Pros? Does he look like anyone of those guys you mentioned? NO. Why? Because he lacked the basic fundamentals they had because he lived on his physical ability and never learned the position.

My god man. You seem smart enough to get it. Let me say it one more time.

COLLEGE SUCCESS doesnt EQUAL NFL SUCCESS.

And there's no reason that he can't run that offense, or something very close to it in the NFL. Cam Newton ran one like it last year and put up some gaudy numbers.

Now, stop for a minute and think through what I am talking about. Last year in Denver, Tebow often missed his targets BADLY. Throws in the dirt, receivers underthrown or overthrown.

Guess what ? He routinely made those throws at Florida. With what I'm discussing, it has nothing to do with his "accuracy", but rather, with his "consistency". I'm not talking about pin point precision throws just over the outstretched hands of defenders. I'm talking about passes where the receivers were wide open, but Tebow couldn't hit them consistently.

He didn't have that problem at Florida. If receiver was open, he got them the ball. His high completion percentage at Florida speaks to that.

Demosthenes9

07-26-2012, 12:07 PM

And I would agree 100% IF Tebow had run a more pro-style sort of offense. But he didn't. There are plenty of examples of very successful college QB's that have run spread, option, pistol and other various types of offense that struggle in the pro system.

Hmmm, best I can recall, two of the best QBs in the league right now, Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers played in wide open "college" Spread Offenses, not "pro-style" offenses. Then again, they both play Spread Offenses here in the NFL as well :)

metsnjets

07-26-2012, 12:13 PM

Don't know why you are always acting like you own this mode of thinking or phrase. We all have known that before you said it.

But here is my annoyance with that saying... players are drafted to professional sports based on high school and/or college performance. Are you going to join the Colts forum and start spewing off about how it is a mistake to draft Andrew Luck?

And don't be ridiculous and say "well, he played in a pro-style offense" or "he has great mechanics". There are plenty of NFL BUSTS who had great college numbers, mechanics, and played in a pro-style offense.

HAHA. I will bet a Tebow jersey that Luck has a better career than Tebow.

Backup QB

07-26-2012, 01:26 PM

HAHA. I will bet a Tebow jersey that Luck has a better career than Tebow.

What Andrew Luck NFL stats are you basing this off?

TTTTebowAndTheJets

07-26-2012, 02:24 PM

What Andrew Luck NFL stats are you basing this off?

Ha... I see what you did there ;-)

FakeSpike13

07-26-2012, 02:30 PM

Yea, I'm the one who's not in touch with reality. Tebow's multiple roles on this team sure don't sound like someone who is going to be given serious consideration as a starting qb. But why bother with facts when you can pretend he's destined for the starting QB position.

Get a grip, he's our utility knife, not our qb.

That's because most backup QB's bring nothing else to the table other than being the Backup...

What good is it to have someone with multiple talents like Tebow riding the pine when you can have him do other things that can help your team?

My guess is that when Sanchez goes down with injury, or gets pulled due to sucking, Tebow will cease being on ST's.

In the mean time, there is little reason not to put him out there if you feel he can do the job better than, say, your third string RB/WR/LB/TE....

He's bigger than 99% of other QB's, so its not like the chances of him getting hurt in this role is immense. (Yeah, I understand the possibility of injury is still there, but its a matter of risk vs. reward)

FakeSpike13

07-26-2012, 02:34 PM

What Andrew Luck NFL stats are you basing this off?

Lol..nicely done.

TTTTebowAndTheJets

07-26-2012, 02:43 PM

That's because most backup QB's bring nothing else to the table other than being the Backup...

What good is it to have someone with multiple talents like Tebow riding the pine when you can have him do other things that can help your team?

My guess is that when Sanchez goes down with injury, or gets pulled due to sucking, Tebow will cease being on ST's.

In the mean time, there is little reason not to put him out there if you feel he can do the job better than, say, your third string RB/WR/LB/TE....

He's bigger than 99% of other QB's, so its not like the chances of him getting hurt in this role is immense. (Yeah, I understand the possibility of injury is still there, but its a matter of risk vs. reward)

I'd say 100%... Name one bigger ;-)

I still disagree about his use on ST. As an occasional punt protector with the risk of throwing or running makes some sense... But KO return?? That's the most dangerous thing you can do. You don't put your "back up" QB in that situation. I think all this talk is smoke and mirrors.... Or at least I hope it is.

LongTimeJetsFan

07-26-2012, 03:08 PM

That's because most backup QB's bring nothing else to the table other than being the Backup...

What good is it to have someone with multiple talents like Tebow riding the pine when you can have him do other things that can help your team?

My guess is that when Sanchez goes down with injury, or gets pulled due to sucking, Tebow will cease being on ST's.

In the mean time, there is little reason not to put him out there if you feel he can do the job better than, say, your third string RB/WR/LB/TE....

He's bigger than 99% of other QB's, so its not like the chances of him getting hurt in this role is immense. (Yeah, I understand the possibility of injury is still there, but its a matter of risk vs. reward)

You don't get it.

He was brought to the team to be Brad Smith+. He's not here to be a QB. That's why he's being used on special teams and rooming with a skill guy and not another QB like Sanchez.

You don't put a real QB in harms way like the Jets are planning to do with Brad Smith II.

TTTTebowAndTheJets

07-26-2012, 03:10 PM

You don't get it.

He was brought to the team to be Brad Smith+. He's not here to be a QB. That's why he's being used on special teams and rooming with a skill guy and not another QB like Sanchez.

You don't put a real QB in harms way like the Jets are planning to do with Brad Smith II.

Then why are they calling him the backup... And why is he even getting 2nd string snaps??? Explain the logic there. Did brad smith get all the 2nd string snaps in vamp and in practice?

LongTimeJetsFan

07-26-2012, 03:13 PM

Then why are they calling him the backup... And why is he even getting 2nd string snaps??? Explain the logic there. Did brad smith get all the 2nd string snaps in vamp and in practice?

smoke screen

TTTTebowAndTheJets

07-26-2012, 03:15 PM

smoke screen

Riiiggghhhhtttt.... McElroy is really the backup... But we're gonna fool everyone by giving Tebow most of the 2nd string snaps. That's a great way to prep.

FakeSpike13

07-26-2012, 03:20 PM

smoke screen

The smoke screen is the kickoff thing...

His role in ST's will be highly limited IMO...Doubt we will ever see him on any KO teams, although I do think there is a good chance we will see him as the punt protector in fake punt situations.

Beyond the Wildcat Package, Tebow won't be used as much as the Jets are leading on...And he has proven he can handle the pounding running the wildcat. Dude carried the rock a lot last year and didn't miss any time.

And if he does become the starter, they will still use him on QB designed running plays anyway, so there is really no added risk there.

What you are missing is that he brings more to the table than Sanchez does...He brings a running demension that Sanchez does not, while still posting comparable passing numbers...

That is why they brought him in....There isn't anything that Sanchez has shown he can do that Tebow cannot..But the same can't be said for the opposite...

It's not like we are talking about him coming in for Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or either of the Mannings...We are talking about Mark Sanchez here (You know, the guy who still played like an inconsistent rookie despite being in his 3rd year as the full time starter).

You are the one who doesn't get it.

FakeSpike13

07-26-2012, 03:22 PM

Riiiggghhhhtttt.... McElroy is really the backup... But we're gonna fool everyone by giving Tebow most of the 2nd string snaps. That's a great way to prep.

Denile...It's like those Penn State people ignoring the facts and still defending JoePa.

metsnjets

07-26-2012, 03:33 PM

What Andrew Luck NFL stats are you basing this off?

None. Just guessing based upon what I have seen. He could bust like anyone. I just THINK that he will be a good nfl QB.

Still betting a tebow jersey with you. Scared?

LongTimeJetsFan

07-26-2012, 03:38 PM

The smoke screen is the kickoff thing...

His role in ST's will be highly limited IMO...Doubt we will ever see him on any KO teams, although I do think there is a good chance we will see him as the punt protector in fake punt situations.

Beyond the Wildcat Package, Tebow won't be used as much as the Jets are leading on...And he has proven he can handle the pounding running the wildcat. Dude carried the rock a lot last year and didn't miss any time.

And if he does become the starter, they will still use him on QB designed running plays anyway, so there is really no added risk there.

What you are missing is that he brings more to the table than Sanchez does...He brings a running demension that Sanchez does not, while still posting comparable passing numbers...

That is why they brought him in....There isn't anything that Sanchez has shown he can do that Tebow cannot..But the same can't be said for the opposite...

It's not like we are talking about him coming in for Brady, Rodgers, Brees, or either of the Mannings...We are talking about Mark Sanchez here (You know, the guy who still played like an inconsistent rookie despite being in his 3rd year as the full time starter).

You are the one who doesn't get it.
lol

OK - I'm glad we have Brad Smith II to bolster our offense and special teams this year. We really missed him in '11.