Have been asked a number of times why do I like Tebow...

[Demosthenes9]

This video does a pretty good job of showing many of the reasons:

nbHYPi6fMlQ


To those that aren't Tebow fans, or might even be haters, I ask that you set your thoughts (hatred) aside for a few minutes, watch the vid and see of your opinion about him changes.

[NYJATW]

I already was a fan, but that made me like him a bit more for sure. I really think he will be a successful quarterback in the NFL...

just not with us.

[RobertPooner]

So many of you fail to recognize greatness when you see it, puts me in the minority but it's gonna be so much sweeter when i'm proven right, and i get to call you out.

[TheMoops]

I just feel like the haters will always hate. For some reason they don't like this kid even though he plays with incredible passion, wins games in the clutch, and is an amazing role model off the field.

Even if Tebow wins a Super Bowl playing qb haters won't give him his due. Like last season, haters will say, Well he got some lucky bounces, or He had a great kicker or Defense saves him... never that Tebow made a play to help win the game.

That's just the way Haters think...

[#1 Jets Fan]

I just feel like the haters will always hate. For some reason they don't like this kid even though he plays with incredible passion, wins games in the clutch, and is an amazing role model off the field.

Even if Tebow wins a Super Bowl playing qb haters won't give him his due. Like last season, haters will say, Well he got some lucky bounces, or He had a great kicker or Defense saves him... never that Tebow made a play to help win the game.

That's just the way Haters think...I guess all the GM in the NFL are haters? Once he earns a starting job and IF he does something with it then us haters u claim we are will give him his props. I'm sorry but I have seen Tebow play a bunch of games and I just don't see him being a NFL QB. If I'm proven wrong I will be the first to say it.

[#1 Jets Fan]

I just feel like the haters will always hate. For some reason they don't like this kid even though he plays with incredible passion, wins games in the clutch, and is an amazing role model off the field.

Even if Tebow wins a Super Bowl playing qb haters won't give him his due. Like last season, haters will say, Well he got some lucky bounces, or He had a great kicker or Defense saves him... never that Tebow made a play to help win the game.

That's just the way Haters think...Just so u know I loved watching Tebow play in college and even back then I said he would never be a starting QB in the NFL.

[cval]

We have two National Championship winning Qbs on our roster and neither one will be a starting NFL Qb.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

I'm shocked that an NFL player had success in HS & college AND has a desire to win. Maybe you should follow 99% of the players in the league around and defend their honor.

[srqman1]

Great thread. Tebow just knows how to win. As an fsu fan who hated playing him in college, I recognize that he just has that x factor needed to win championships. Call it the winning edge, burning desire, whatever you want. He has that intangible "it" quality that tells me that he's going to win a title some day. Maybe not as a starting quarterback, but in a significant role no less.

[flajetfan]

see my sig

you do realize that alot of people hate him because you guys come with him.if he didnt have the fan fare he would just be a great college qb who may make it in the pros with the right team

[Coach K]

My opinion on him has been the same since day one.

Great athlete, great football player. I just don't see him as a long lasting franchise qb. But if anyone has the work ethic to prove me wrong. Its tebow.

Still don't think he proves me wrong though.

[metsnjets]

Great thread. Tebow just knows how to win. As an fsu fan who hated playing him in college, I recognize that he just has that x factor needed to win championships. Call it the winning edge, burning desire, whatever you want. He has that intangible "it" quality that tells me that he's going to win a title some day. Maybe not as a starting quarterback, but in a significant role no less.

What he had was the best College team on the planet. You guys act like he played all 22 positions on the field. he had NUMEROUS NFL PLAYERS surrounding him and a world class college FB coach. Yet its all Tebow, nobody else did anything if Tebow was playing at any other school he doesn't win shit. Just knows how to win? Then how come he has 7 NFL losses under his belt and 9 wins? The Ginger from Cincy has the same record does he "Just know how to win" Sanchez is 32-22 including playoffs I guess he is another "Just knows how to win guy"

[metsnjets]

This video does a pretty good job of showing many of the reasons:

nbHYPi6fMlQ


To those that aren't Tebow fans, or might even be haters, I ask that you set your thoughts (hatred) aside for a few minutes, watch the vid and see of your opinion about him changes.

Nope. Great college QB that was surrounded by NFL TALENT and in a system that his coaches devised just for him because they had no choice because he cant run a regular offense. Don't mean shit in the NFL.

[reverseapachemaster]

LOLZ that whole video was just self-congratulatory bullshit. You could put the same video together about 99.9% of players in the NFL. They have a desire to succeed. They were good in HS and College, too. Just because you put some Bible verses and ominous music around some video clips doesn't state any fact that changes an opinion.

[Barcs]

I don't think people hate Tebow, they just get annoyed when people act like he's the second coming or that he's better than Sanchez. I agree he's an X factor and I do think he makes the Jets a better team overall, but he's not a starting QB, at least not yet. It's easy to make a collaboration of all the good plays he's made, but somebody could just as easily make one with just as many bad plays. I'm excited about having him on the Jets, but he's not above the team, he's part of it.

[Coach K]

What he had was the best College team on the planet. You guys act like he played all 22 positions on the field. he had NUMEROUS NFL PLAYERS surrounding him and a world class college FB coach. Yet its all Tebow, nobody else did anything if Tebow was playing at any other school he doesn't win shit. Just knows how to win? Then how come he has 7 NFL losses under his belt and 9 wins? The Ginger from Cincy has the same record does he "Just know how to win" Sanchez is 32-22 including playoffs I guess he is another "Just knows how to win guy"

That did alwayss piss me off considering he was on one of the best college teams of all time. People like to sweep that under the rug.

I have a good amount of friends who are UF alums. Some are realistic bout tebow. Some still see him wearing a cape.

None of them like to admit Cam Newton iss 1000x th player he is

[stephenpe]

None of them like to admit Cam Newton iss 1000x th player he is
Why would someone admit something so stupid? Time will tell. As for character and work ethic it aint even close. One stole a lap top computer (hence is exit from UF and ending up at Auburn) and the other stole a million hearts with his
play and fire.

[displacedfan]

Why would someone admit something so stupid? Time will tell. As for character and work ethic it aint even close. One stole a lap top computer (hence is exit from UF and ending up at Auburn) and the other stole a million hearts with his
play and fire.

I don't think we can judge someone on character or work ethic by one mistake they made in college. He got his big payday from the NFL and hasn't been in the news for doing anything bad.

That's another reason a lot of people are more annoyed with the way Tebow is portrayed than Tebow himself. "stole a million hears with his play and fire". Cam Newton did that last year in the NFL. You can say that about any player where all of sudden the media focuses on him. Mike Trout in the MLB is doing that. Quick in the NHL and Thomas the year before just did it. Jeremy Lin, Blake Griffin, etc etc.

[Demosthenes9]

see my sig

you do realize that alot of people hate him because you guys come with him.if he didnt have the fan fare he would just be a great college qb who may make it in the pros with the right team

So, you hate him just because there are things about him that make other people like him a whole lot ?

Interesting.

[Demosthenes9]

What he had was the best College team on the planet. You guys act like he played all 22 positions on the field. he had NUMEROUS NFL PLAYERS surrounding him and a world class college FB coach. Yet its all Tebow, nobody else did anything if Tebow was playing at any other school he doesn't win shit. Just knows how to win? Then how come he has 7 NFL losses under his belt and 9 wins? The Ginger from Cincy has the same record does he "Just know how to win" Sanchez is 32-22 including playoffs I guess he is another "Just knows how to win guy"

He had the best college team on the planet ? Surely you aren't forgetting the USC team that Sanchez played for. I do believe they had 11 players drafted into the NFL that year, which led all colleges.

And guess what ? Even having the 'best team" doesn't get you a NC. It often takes more than talent.

As for Tebow having the same record as Dalton, Dalton also had a phenomenal receiver in AJ Green and a coaching staff that actually believe in him. Doesn't hurt that he's a more developed passer as well.

As for Sanchez, are you sure that you want to go down that route ? If you do, we can look at the fact that through their first 16 starts, Tebow has much better overall stats than Sanchez, AND better passing stats. This, even though Sanchez was given the starting job immediately and was taking first team snaps in OTAs and TC from the get go, whereas Tebow didn't have the same opportunities.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Tebow is better than Sanchez right now or that Tebow should be the starter. Sanchez has more experience, has had more NFL experience to develop and is the better passer right now.

[Demosthenes9]

I don't think we can judge someone on character or work ethic by one mistake they made in college. He got his big payday from the NFL and hasn't been in the news for doing anything bad.

That's another reason a lot of people are more annoyed with the way Tebow is portrayed than Tebow himself. "stole a million hears with his play and fire". Cam Newton did that last year in the NFL. You can say that about any player where all of sudden the media focuses on him. Mike Trout in the MLB is doing that. Quick in the NHL and Thomas the year before just did it. Jeremy Lin, Blake Griffin, etc etc.


Cam stole hearts with his play, but he also had a big minus with how he came across in that he seems to be a severely narcissitic prima donna.

This is something that was reported in one of the pre draft profiles:

"Very disingenuous - has a fake smile, comes off as very scripted and has a selfish, me-first makeup. Always knows where the cameras are and plays to them. Has an enormous ego with a sense of entitlement that continually invites trouble and makes him believe he is above the law - does not command respect from teammates and will always struggle to win a locker room...Lacks accountability, focus and trustworthiness - is not punctual, seeks shortcuts and sets a bad example. Immature and has had issues with authority. Not dependable."

Time will tell with Cam. It may just be that he's immature and needs to (and will) grow up. Or it could be that he's actually a really great guy, just severely misunderstood. That his competitiveness comes across as selfishness and ego, but that's not the way he really is. Or, it may be that the report hit the nail right on the head. That Cam is all about Cam, and that will be a problem.

With Tebow, there is no such concern and never has been that I'm aware of. He's extremely selfless and always gives the credit to others. It's never about him.

That's endearing to many people. Couple that with the heart and determination that he shows on the field and it makes it easy to really like him.

[#1 Jets Fan]

There no way in hell u can compare Cam and Tebow. Cam the way better player. As for the ones who says about cam stealing that laptop. Why don't u go look in that book Tebow always pearching and see what it says about forgiving?

[Demosthenes9]

There no way in hell u can compare Cam and Tebow. Cam the way better player. As for the ones who says about cam stealing that laptop. Why don't u go look in that book Tebow always pearching and see what it says about forgiving?

ya know, Cam is a better passer, but I would have loved to have seen Tebow running that offense down in Carolina.

As for forgiveness, just because you do forgive someone, doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't be leary of them.

[phaytal]

What he had was the best College team on the planet. You guys act like he played all 22 positions on the field. he had NUMEROUS NFL PLAYERS surrounding him and a world class college FB coach.

Just to reinforce this statement, during Tebow's years with the Gators, those teams sent more players to the NFL than any other school, in a four year period, in history. Most importantly, his entire offensive line made it to the NFL, which included two 1st round picks.

I have a good amount of friends who are UF alums. Some are realistic bout tebow. Some still see him wearing a cape.

I'm a UF grad, and think that his cult is borderline Westboro Baptist crazy most of the time.

[Bannon]

Just to reinforce this statement, during Tebow's years with the Gators, those teams sent more players to the NFL than any other school, in a four year period, in history. Most importantly, his entire offensive line made it to the NFL, which included two 1st round picks.

.

Can you provide a source for this? I'd like to read up more and compare to some other recent SEC teams. See how they measured it, etc. I know about the Pouncey twins, Harvin and Aaron Hernandez. Also Lewis Murphy.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Bannon]

I'm a UF grad, and think that his cult is borderline Westboro Baptist crazy most of the time.

Wow. That seems sort of extreme. I've seen where that group protests at fallen soldiers funerals, and tells the parents God wanted their son to die.

That comparison calls your judgment into question, makes it seem like you've got something else going on.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Barcs]

If you do, we can look at the fact that through their first 16 starts, Tebow has much better overall stats than Sanchez, AND better passing stats.

Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly. This is the type of nonsense that people hate. Fallacy stats such as the ones above. Do you really think first 16 starts late in a QBs career is a valid comparison to rookie year in terms of skill? Development, coaching and team chemistry mean nothing apparently. Let's also forget to mention that the alleged better stats include Tebows entire career #s(not just the games he started). Fallacious faulty illogical stats. Thank you drive through.

[Demosthenes9]

Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly. This is the type of nonsense that people hate. Fallacy stats such as the ones above. Do you really think first 16 starts late in a QBs career is a valid comparison to rookie year in terms of skill? Let's also forget to mention that the alleged better stats include Tebows entire career (not just the games he started). Fallacious faulty illogical stats. Thank you drive through.

"LATE IN A QB'S CAREER ? Shit, did you really just say that ? You do know that 3 of those starts came in his ROOKIE FREAKING YEAR and the other 13 came during his SECOND FREAKING YEAR ? Yeah, that's really "late in his career".

And no, those stats only include his FREAKING STARTS.

Do you want to get into the fact that Sanchez walked into OTAs and TC as the starter and got the first team snaps in his rookie year, while Tebow did not ? Do you understand what a difference that makes ?

Let's put it on the table. Sanchez comes in as a rookie, goes to full OTAs and a full TC as the starter, getting all the first team snaps and all the attention from the OC and the coaching staff. He then racks up stats over 15 starts that year.

Now, Tebow's situation. He DIDN'T go into camp as the starter. He DIDN'T get those first team snaps. He DIDN'T get al the attention from the OC and the coaching staff. Add to that, there was a coaching change midway through the year. Tebow was then thrown in as the starter for the last 3 games of the season.

Next, there was a lockout which led to an abbreviated preseason. Very little time for OTAs and TC. Still, Tebow wasn't the starter even then and didn't get first team snaps. Also throw in yet another coaching change as John Fox took over the helm and McCoy took over the playcalling for the offense.

After the Broncos started 1-4, Tebow was thrown in as the starter.

So let's look at the differences. Tebow had a couple more months in the freaking league by the time he made his 15th start, and he had a shortened preseason where he wasn't even getting first team snaps.

That's about as close as you can get to an "even" comparison of situations without them being identical.

[Bannon]

Thanks for demonstrating my point perfectly. This is the type of nonsense that people hate. Fallacy stats such as the ones above. Do you really think first 16 starts late in a QBs career is a valid comparison to rookie year in terms of skill? Development, coaching and team chemistry mean nothing apparently. Let's also forget to mention that the alleged better stats include Tebows entire career #s(not just the games he started). Fallacious faulty illogical stats. Thank you drive through.

It's just an attempt to try and level out the sample size -- if you just compare "rookie year" stats, Tebow was higher than Sanchez in quarterback rating, yards per attempt, touchdown pass percentage, interception percentage (lower), etc.

So Tebow's stats need the "normalization" of a larger sample size just to bring it to within range. His passing stats are not much affected by including games he didn't start.

The point is not to say Tebow has been better than Sanchez. The point is to provide context, and a little bit of reasonableness to all the people who attempt to stand on the idea that Tebow has been supposedly "horrible" statistically.

(To be fair, people also say Sanchez can't cut it, and cite his stats. So it's not like we're comparing Montana and Elway here, statistically).

[reverseapachemaster]

With Tebow, there is no such concern and never has been that I'm aware of. He's extremely selfless and always gives the credit to others. It's never about him.

Except when he finds an excuse to run in front of a camera to perform his signature move or declined to show support for Orton and prove himself a team player. :lol:

[Bannon]

Except when he finds an excuse to run in front of a camera to perform his signature move or declined to show support for Orton and prove himself a team player. :lol:

He doesn't have to run in front of a camera. They point at him for a reaction almost nonstop.

As for supporting Orton -- it's his one vice. He wants to be out there every play. Can't help it. I gotta admit, for those of you who desire a backup quarterback who's content with that role, Tebow is not your guy. I think the concerns that Sanchez won't hold up are well-founded.

[#1 Jets Fan]

ya know, Cam is a better passer, but I would have loved to have seen Tebow running that offense down in Carolina.

As for forgiveness, just because you do forgive someone, doesn't mean that you can't or shouldn't be leary of them.Let be real u would just love to see Tebow run any offense. Cam a better runner and athlete. The one thing I would give Tebow over Cam he maybe have more passion.

[Demosthenes9]

Let be real u would just love to see Tebow run any offense. Cam a better runner and athlete. The one thing I would give Tebow over Cam he maybe have more passion.

Actually, I meant exactly what I said, which funny enough, is why I said it. Carolina's offense last year involved a heck of a lot of Spread Option from the gun, which is something that Tebow is used to and does very well in. Carolina also had a much better weapons surrounding Cam.

Won't say that Tebow would have put up Cam's numbers, but I think he would have done much better than he did in Denver.

[Demosthenes9]

Except when he finds an excuse to run in front of a camera to perform his signature move or declined to show support for Orton and prove himself a team player. :lol:

You mean the signature move he has been doing since before cameras even started following every move he makes ??

Oh, wait, I know, Tebow should stop Tebowing now since cameras show it and it offends your sensibilities. That about it ?

[flajetfan]

So, you hate him just because there are things about him that make other people like him a whole lot ?

Interesting.

ftr i don't hate him.i like the gators and lived in jacksonville for a while.was there for all 3 national titles and still root for them
i hate you and your type for coming to this sight and eating up the media bullshit so the fabricated qb controversey will not rest until it tears the locker room apart.
you guys are as much a reason why tebow was shipped out of denver as anything elway saw on game tape.
i don't respect you as nfl fans because you don't root for team but rather a person and that is not a concept i can comprehend.and i hope for the day tebow is sent to another team so you will leave this board and i can root for tebow again as long as he is not playing the jets,the team i love and have been rooting for since as far back as i can remember

[stephenpe]

Let's put it on the table. Sanchez comes in as a rookie, goes to full OTAs and a full TC as the starter, getting all the first team snaps and all the attention from the OC and the coaching staff. He then racks up stats over 15 starts that year.

Now, Tebow's situation. He DIDN'T go into camp as the starter. He DIDN'T get those first team snaps. He DIDN'T get al the attention from the OC and the coaching staff. Add to that, there was a coaching change midway through the year. Tebow was then thrown in as the starter for the last 3 games of the season.

Next, there was a lockout which led to an abbreviated preseason. Very little time for OTAs and TC. Still, Tebow wasn't the starter even then and didn't get first team snaps. Also throw in yet another coaching change as John Fox took over the helm and McCoy took over the playcalling for the offense.

After the Broncos started 1-4, Tebow was thrown in as the starter.

So let's look at the differences. Tebow had a couple more months in the freaking league by the time he made his 15th start, and he had a shortened preseason where he wasn't even getting first team snaps.
Facts are a bitch........but we all know TT sucks and will never be an NFL qb because he does it all wrong.

[TTTTebowAndTheJets]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

[Demosthenes9]

ftr i don't hate him.i like the gators and lived in jacksonville for a while.was there for all 3 national titles and still root for them
i hate you and your type for coming to this sight and eating up the media bullshit so the fabricated qb controversey will not rest until it tears the locker room apart.

you guys are as much a reason why tebow was shipped out of denver as anything elway saw on game tape.

i don't respect you as nfl fans because you don't root for team but rather a person and that is not a concept i can comprehend.and i hope for the day tebow is sent to another team so you will leave this board and i can root for tebow again as long as he is not playing the jets,the team i love and have been rooting for since as far back as i can remember

Oh yes, I'm generating a whole lot of controversy considering the fact that I have said repeatedly that Sanchez is the better passer and most definitely SHOULD BE the starting QB. That it will do Tebow well to have another year to develop as a passer, but in the mean time, he can contribute to the team running the Wildcat or whatever the coaching staff has in mind for him.

yep, a whole farking boatload of controversy there, huh ?

What a freaking joke.

"We guys" that you refer to mainly are of the opinion that Tebow is still a very young, raw and inexperienced QB. That he definitely still needs to work on his passing and continue to develop. Yeah, we were the problem in Denver huh ??

As for what you respect, personally, between you and me, I really don't give a shit. So you are some great guy because you have rooted for a single team for a long time. Great. If I was there with you, I'd buy you a cookie as a reward and give you a nice shiny gold star sticker as well.

Tell me, has Free Agency done anything to diminish your appreciation of players while they are Jets ? Did you like Curtis Martin less because he was drafted by, and played for the Pats before he came to the Jets ? Did that make him less of a Jet ?

[Backup QB]

Let be real u would just love to see Tebow run any offense. Cam a better runner and athlete. The one thing I would give Tebow over Cam he maybe have more passion.
Cam is good, but if you think he would have had the same numbers he had in Carolina last year in Denver, you are mistaken. At least, not under the same conditions that Tebow had. Don't forget that while Cam had stats, he lost quite a few games in the clutch with turnovers.

BTW, I like Cam... had him as my starting QB in fantasy football. I personally think Tebow is better.

[phaytal]

Wow. That seems sort of extreme. I've seen where that group protests at fallen soldiers funerals, and tells the parents God wanted their son to die.

That comparison calls your judgment into question, makes it seem like you've got something else going on.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

The organization Focus on the Family is a confirmed hate group. They have picketed both gay and athiest marriages, as well as gay funerals in the recent past. They are also the organization that bankrolled Tebow's anti-abortion ad during the Super Bowl a few years back. The Tebow family just happens to be one of their most steadfast supporters both in the media, and financially. Some of his fans aren't far behind.

Feel free to Google them. I'd link relevant articles, but I dont have the post count. I suggest you start with the SPLC.

I'll get you the draft stats tomorrow. Regardless of what those stats reveal, it does not take away from what Tebow did in college, which I think everyone that knows anything about football, will acknowledge was great. But the point is he was surrounded by arguably the greatest NCAA team in history. The second he lost Harvin, who was a circus catch machine at UF, and the older Pouncey brother to the draft, he beat one ranked team (LSU, which UF's defense won for them 13-3) and got man handled by the Tide in the SEC Championship his senior year. He lost a couple of first round NFL picks and crumbled. Its really that simple.

Not one person with any sort of football knowledge should refuse to acknowledge his college football greatness, in the Meyer system, at UF. It was custom built for Tebow, and worked fantastic for the most part. But to ignore the ridiculous amount of talent around him during that run is extremely close-minded, and down right irresponsible. Average quarternacks could, and would have won championships with that amount of talent around them.

Edit: Peace, I'm drunk and cant spell.

[Bannon]

The second he lost Harvin, who was a circus catch machine at UF, and the older Pouncey brother to the draft, he beat one ranked team (LSU, which UF's defense won for them 13-3)

You said before one time, and I pointed out that Tebow's Gators destroyed the undefeated, third ranked Cincinnati -- the bowl game where Tebow went 31-35 and almost 500 yards. Why do you keep saying it when I pointed out it wasn't true?

[displacedfan]

Cam stole hearts with his play, but he also had a big minus with how he came across in that he seems to be a severely narcissitic prima donna.

This is something that was reported in one of the pre draft profiles:



Time will tell with Cam. It may just be that he's immature and needs to (and will) grow up. Or it could be that he's actually a really great guy, just severely misunderstood. That his competitiveness comes across as selfishness and ego, but that's not the way he really is. Or, it may be that the report hit the nail right on the head. That Cam is all about Cam, and that will be a problem.

With Tebow, there is no such concern and never has been that I'm aware of. He's extremely selfless and always gives the credit to others. It's never about him.

That's endearing to many people. Couple that with the heart and determination that he shows on the field and it makes it easy to really like him.

Good points, but how many kids or casual fans will read that or know that about Cam? Media, fans, little kids all loved him because of that big smile and that superman celebration.

My point was that these narratives are used for Tebow like it doesn't apply to any other athletes when it does. I personally like Tebow but the way he is portrayed by super fans (not you) and the media and the narratives around it is annoying.

Sanchez's own college coach said he wasn't ready. Everyone called Sanchez a bust after his Buffalo game. Everyone said only reason Sanchez made the playoffs because he was let in. Everyone called the Cincy game luck, everyone called Sanchez in SD luck again, and then everyone pointed and said see Sanchez sucks in the Indy game where he actually played his best.

Yet nobody that year fell in love with Sanchez and wrote these narratives.

Then second year Sanchez had a LOT of late comebacks and wins, and in my opinion they were more impressive than Tebow. HOU comeback is one of the best ones ever. Yet nobody talked about his "heart" or "will to win", the narratives or phrases used for Tebow. Then when Sanchez fell apart in games this year, he was called "weak" (and in games his first two years also) even though Tebow had similar struggles against similar teams. Yet Tebow is called a "competitor"

[phaytal]

You said before one time, and I pointed out that Tebow's Gators destroyed the undefeated, third ranked Cincinnati -- the bowl game where Tebow went 31-35 and almost 500 yards. Why do you keep saying it when I pointed out it wasn't true?

And once again I will point out that Cincinnati was horribly over-ranked, and beat absolutely nobody that year. The Gators beat 1 ranked team, and got abused by Bama. Period.

Also, I knew that was the only thing in my post you'd address. Tebow homers deflect, are insanely predictable, and, for the most part, extremely close minded.

[mrdul49]

Maurkice Pouncey was drafted the same year as Tebow--2010. He was pick #18 in the first round by Pittsburg and Tebow went #25 to Denver. Maurkice's twin brother, Mike, was pick #15 in 2011 by the Dolphins. Phaytal, you have the right to your opinion, but please be sure your facts are accurate.

[Backup QB]

And once again I will point out that Cincinnati was horribly over-ranked, and beat absolutely nobody that year. The Gators beat 1 ranked team, and got abused by Bama. Period.

Also, I knew that was the only thing in my post you'd address. Tebow homers deflect, are insanely predictable, and, for the most part, extremely close minded.
I don't understand why people lump all Tebow supporters into one category. I support Tebow because I've seen what he is capable of on the football field.

I honestly didn't know he had a throwing problem until the "experts" told me he could not pass during the draft process. In college, in the toughest conference, he was one of the most prolific and efficient passers of all time. In the NFL, he has shown flashes of good QBing when allowed to throw. He has also had terrible passing games, but that is to be expected early in a young QB's career.

To make Tebow look badly, he is often compared to the likes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. His completion percentage was admittedly very low, but I think that is a result of several factors... inexperience, lack of OTAs and reps in practice, and awful play-calling and coaching.

I'm not one of those guys who thinks Sanchez is a better QB. I think Tebow has a much better athleticism, QB skill set, higher upside and should start day one. Obviously, that won't happen, but IMO Tebow is the kind of guy to build a franchise around.

BTW, I'm an atheist so don't go there about the religious crap. I could care less about his religious views.

[Bannon]

And once again I will point out that Cincinnati was horribly over-ranked, and beat absolutely nobody that year. The Gators beat 1 ranked team, and got abused by Bama. Period.

Also, I knew that was the only thing in my post you'd address. Tebow homers deflect, are insanely predictable, and, for the most part, extremely close minded.

Then why use ranking as the measure of worth in your post? I think most of the SEC is better than half the teams that are ranked. Plus FSU is a decent team. But you hung everything on ranking, then ignore a #3 ranked team.

As for your observations about me, that's not really interesting to the whole group. Let's stick to football.

[catsigater]

And once again I will point out that Cincinnati was horribly over-ranked, and beat absolutely nobody that year. The Gators beat 1 ranked team, and got abused by Bama. Period.

Also, I knew that was the only thing in my post you'd address. Tebow homers deflect, are insanely predictable, and, for the most part, extremely close minded.
As predictable as you, who when it would be a simple matter to just say, "I was wrong when I said the only ranked team they beat after Harvin went down was LSU," has to toss this weak sauce.

Your statement was factually incorrect. Period.

You're also quite wrong that Harvin was a "circus catch machine," unless you've got some idiosyncratic notion of what that means.

What he was was a burner who could get open, and who due to his speed, possessed an unbelievable ability to get YAC.

[reverseapachemaster]

I don't understand why people lump all Tebow supporters into one category. I support Tebow because I've seen what he is capable of on the football field.



To make Tebow look badly, he is often compared to the likes of Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees. His completion percentage was admittedly very low, but I think that is a result of several factors... inexperience, lack of OTAs and reps in practice, and awful play-calling and coaching.

This is why it's easy to lump all Tebow supporters together: facts are optional. The people I saw most comparing Tebow to those other QBs were Tebow supporters talking about how Tebow was the best QB ever. So if he's going to be compared -- accurately -- to those QBs he looks terrible because he has bad stats compared to them.

Is Tebow a proven winner or lacking experience to justify bad numbers? I hear both comments from Tebow fans. He was, as you point out, the most efficient QB in SEC history, so how is he too inexperienced to throw a tight spiral or not fumble? How did he not get enough reps in practice when he was the starting QB? If inexperience was the sole reason for his numbers the offense would have improved as he gained experience. Instead he ended 1-4 in Denver (just like Orton). "Awful play-calling and coaching"??? They build an entire offensive scheme around his strengths. What more could they have done?

[Demosthenes9]

You said before one time, and I pointed out that Tebow's Gators destroyed the undefeated, third ranked Cincinnati -- the bowl game where Tebow went 31-35 and almost 500 yards. Why do you keep saying it when I pointed out it wasn't true?

He keeps saying it because he's a straight up frakking LIAR.

[Bannon]

He was, as you point out, the most efficient QB in SEC history, so how is he too inexperienced to throw a tight spiral or not fumble?

His mechanics and habits are not conducive to quick-fire throws. The arm motion was the obvious example, but really it's every part of his body from his feet all the way up. In college, the whole offense was geared to spread the field and throw for chunks, or else tuck and pick up 5 or 6 yards. And it affected his mechanics big time.

He actually does throw a nice ball if it's 25+ yards in the air.

But if he can't develop the ability to throw short, quick, accurate throws (and do it well), he won't last.

All of his observed problems trace back to this point -- when he hesitates and doesn't throw, it's because he's not mechanically ready to throw in rhythm. When he throws a bad throw ( looks bad, goes off target), it's because he went ahead and tried despite not going through proper mechanics.

But he can throw it, and throw it hard, and throw it on target. It's just that's he's having to do his job while deploying some new mechanics habits. And it's not easy. And there's no assurance of success. But it should be fun to watch.

[NewEnglandJet]

I think one thing that is overlooked is how many halves Tebow sat because they put up 40 points in a half.

[Demosthenes9]

This is why it's easy to lump all Tebow supporters together: facts are optional. The people I saw most comparing Tebow to those other QBs were Tebow supporters talking about how Tebow was the best QB ever. So if he's going to be compared -- accurately -- to those QBs he looks terrible because he has bad stats compared to them.

Is Tebow a proven winner or lacking experience to justify bad numbers? I hear both comments from Tebow fans. He was, as you point out, the most efficient QB in SEC history, so how is he too inexperienced to throw a tight spiral or not fumble? How did he not get enough reps in practice when he was the starting QB? If inexperience was the sole reason for his numbers the offense would have improved as he gained experience. Instead he ended 1-4 in Denver (just like Orton). "Awful play-calling and coaching"??? They build an entire offensive scheme around his strengths. What more could they have done?

Regarding reps. At Florida, he took every snap from the shotgun and they ran a completely different scheme in their passing game. All those reps didn't give him any experience with working under center and taking 3, 5, and 7 step drops, or with the timing of those types of passes.

As for the coaching and awful play calling, yes, that's exactly what it was in most cases. Sure, they reworked a large part of the offense, supposedly to tailor it to Tebow's skillset, but that doesn't mean that they did a good job of it. McCoy had no experience to speak of with Spread Option, or with other variations of Option football. He basically watched some film and took some plays from what he saw. He also brought in players like Tebow and D Thomas and picked their brain. Then, he drew up some plays. Problem is, lots of Option football is series based. You run a couple of plays to set up others. There are also things called constraint plays which you use to try and keep defenses honest. McCoy showed that he really had little understanding of this.

Now, if you really paid attention and knew what you were talking about, you'd know that Tebow and the Broncos beat the Steelers using a largely "conventional" offense. Most of the big plays came against zone coverages and they were "conventional" play action passes. That was, without a doubt, the best game that Mike McCoy has ever called/planned.

The next week, he followed that up with a stinker against the Pats. It's hard to say if McCoy never figured out that the Pats were playing a 5-2 (50) defense, or if he just had no idea how to attack it.

If you look at most the other games, you would have seen a rather predictable pattern. For 3 1/2 Quarters, the play calling and the game plan sucked. Then, Denver would find itself behind in the 4th Q, they would throw the gameplan out and would go from the shotgun with 3,4 or 5 receivers and Denver would move down the field.

[reverseapachemaster]

If you look at most the other games, you would have seen a rather predictable pattern. For 3 1/2 Quarters, the play calling and the game plan sucked. Then, Denver would find itself behind in the 4th Q, they would throw the gameplan out and would go from the shotgun with 3,4 or 5 receivers and Denver would move down the field.

Wait, I thought Tebow was some superstar clutch player and his 4th quarter was his time to shine? It can't be both ways. Either Tebow sucked for 3.5 quarters and suddenly raised the bar under pressure (proving he's not a solid player) or he couldn't operate within an NFL offense until they turned the offense into his college offense (proving he's not an NFL level player).

If the play calling was that bad and his inexperience was that much of an issue the team should have had the bulk of its Tebow-led losses at the beginning of his tenure, not at the end, especially when they played shitty teams like KC at the end.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everytime Tebow is talked about positively, he singlehandedly carried 53 players to victory. Anything negative is somebody else's fault.

[ItsTime]

The organization Focus on the Family is a confirmed hate group. They have picketed both gay and athiest marriages, as well as gay funerals in the recent past. They are also the organization that bankrolled Tebow's anti-abortion ad during the Super Bowl a few years back. The Tebow family just happens to be one of their most steadfast supporters both in the media, and financially. Some of his fans aren't far behind.

Feel free to Google them. I'd link relevant articles, but I dont have the post count. I suggest you start with the SPLC.

I'll get you the draft stats tomorrow. Regardless of what those stats reveal, it does not take away from what Tebow did in college, which I think everyone that knows anything about football, will acknowledge was great. But the point is he was surrounded by arguably the greatest NCAA team in history. The second he lost Harvin, who was a circus catch machine at UF, and the older Pouncey brother to the draft, he beat one ranked team (LSU, which UF's defense won for them 13-3) and got man handled by the Tide in the SEC Championship his senior year. He lost a couple of first round NFL picks and crumbled. Its really that simple.

Not one person with any sort of football knowledge should refuse to acknowledge his college football greatness, in the Meyer system, at UF. It was custom built for Tebow, and worked fantastic for the most part. But to ignore the ridiculous amount of talent around him during that run is extremely close-minded, and down right irresponsible. Average quarternacks could, and would have won championships with that amount of talent around them.

Edit: Peace, I'm drunk and cant spell.
You know not of which you speak. The Gators completely fell apart after Tebow left, with Urban Meyer and all of that NFL talent. Take it from a Gator grad, I know what I am talking about.

[ItsTime]

Wait, I thought Tebow was some superstar clutch player and his 4th quarter was his time to shine? It can't be both ways. Either Tebow sucked for 3.5 quarters and suddenly raised the bar under pressure (proving he's not a solid player) or he couldn't operate within an NFL offense until they turned the offense into his college offense (proving he's not an NFL level player).

If the play calling was that bad and his inexperience was that much of an issue the team should have had the bulk of its Tebow-led losses at the beginning of his tenure, not at the end, especially when they played shitty teams like KC at the end.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everytime Tebow is talked about positively, he singlehandedly carried 53 players to victory. Anything negative is somebody else's fault.
Did you watch any of the games? How about he handed the ball of on 1st and 2nd down and was put in 3rd and long repeatedly for 3.5 quarters before the coaches were forced to let him play.

[Bannon]

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everytime Tebow is talked about positively, he singlehandedly carried 53 players to victory. Anything negative is somebody else's fault.

I think you're seeing it because you're looking for it, and straining to see it. I don't think anybody thinks that or says that. Football is a complex game, with 22 starters. To discuss something, you kind of have to simplify it and stick to one thing at a time.

It's really not possible to mention all the great players and lousy ones in every sentence. If the discussion is about any quarterback, its understood he has teammates that make him look good, and its understood that that not everything is his fault.

If you're willing to listen carefully, most of the time the discussion goes something like "Tebow is not an NFL quarterback because ________," citing some past example. And someone responds why, in their opinion, that example or reason doesn't support the conclusion that Tebow is not an NFL quarterback. Then, someone like you goes the other way, crying "Oh, so nothing is his fault and his teammates get no credit!"

Of course that's not true. But in life, you sometimes have to deal with things one at a time. If everybody could just relax, and give Tebow the same benefit of the doubt as say, Josh Freeman or Jake Locker, or even Colin Kaepernik, then there'd be no need to rehash all this pain that is supposedly being caused by shooting the breeze on the internet (the so-called "circus").

[reverseapachemaster]

I think you're seeing it because you're looking for it, and straining to see it. I don't think anybody thinks that or says that. Football is a complex game, with 22 starters. To discuss something, you kind of have to simplify it and stick to one thing at a time.

There are plenty of posts in the tebow forum where people are dismissing the rest of the broncos team.

I'm seeing it because I'm reading it.

[Bannon]

There are plenty of posts in the tebow forum where people are dismissing the rest of the broncos team.

I'm seeing it because I'm reading it.

We'll just have to disagree.



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

[Backup QB]

You are putting words in my mouth. I did not say the sole reason for his completion percentage was inexperience. It was a contributing factor.

Also, if you think the offense Denver installed was playing to Tebow's strengths, you are once again mistaken. That offense was nothing like what he ran at Florida. Tebow was not an "option" QB ala Tommie Frazier at Nebraska. Tebow was a "spread option" QB which is completely different. The guy can throw.

When Denver got behind, they would often put him in the shotgun and let him do his thing. I believe that is why he had so many 4th quarter comebacks.

And yes, it is possible to be inexperienced and talented at the same time. One does not cancel out the other. What I am saying is that his upside is huge, and much larger than Sanchez's. That is my opinion. I don't expect you to agree with me, but if you talked about how great Sanchez was, I would respectfully disagree... I would not attempt to put you into some Sanchez worshipping category.

That is the problem with Tebow detractors. It's as if you can't stand it when someone likes Tebow's game. It offends you. It gets under your skin. Why do you care so much if we think Tebow is good?

And yes, I strongly believe he is better than Sanchez, even on this day, without him having to improve a lick.

[Backup QB]

Giving Tebow the benefit of the doubt makes you a Tebot, Tebowner, Tebowite... etc...

Apparently, Tebow is the one player in the NFL in which it is not possible to think he is good without worshipping at his altar and being a religious zealot.

[catsigater]

There are plenty of posts in the tebow forum where people are dismissing the rest of the broncos team.

I'm seeing it because I'm reading it.
It's called "confirmation bias." You're seeing what you're already predisposed to look for.

[reverseapachemaster]

It's called "confirmation bias." You're seeing what you're already predisposed to look for.

No, it's called observational bias.

I'm not looking for it. Just look at the OP in this thread, or really any pro-Tebow thread. It's right there.

Even if I was looking for it, it doesn't change that the comments are made.

[Backup QB]

No, it's called observational bias.

I'm not looking for it. Just look at the OP in this thread, or really any pro-Tebow thread. It's right there.

Even if I was looking for it, it doesn't change that the comments are made.
Why are you so emotionally attached to people supporting Tebow? Why do you care so much?

[Bannon]

I'm not looking for it. Just look at the OP in this thread, or really any pro-Tebow thread. It's right there.

I looked at the OP in this thread. It wasn't there.

I have a feeling it would go on like this forever. Pointless exercise all around.

[reverseapachemaster]

Why are you so emotionally attached to people supporting Tebow? Why do you care so much?

No emotional attachment. Don't really care that much.

[Demosthenes9]

Wait, I thought Tebow was some superstar clutch player and his 4th quarter was his time to shine? It can't be both ways. Either Tebow sucked for 3.5 quarters and suddenly raised the bar under pressure (proving he's not a solid player) or he couldn't operate within an NFL offense until they turned the offense into his college offense (proving he's not an NFL level player).

If the play calling was that bad and his inexperience was that much of an issue the team should have had the bulk of its Tebow-led losses at the beginning of his tenure, not at the end, especially when they played shitty teams like KC at the end.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Everytime Tebow is talked about positively, he singlehandedly carried 53 players to victory. Anything negative is somebody else's fault.


Actually, for whatever reason, the coaching staff never adjusted. Many of us were screaming about it on the Denver forums. It was a huge bone of contention. In game day threads, many could pretty accurately call the plays before Denver ran them. And like I said, if you go back and look at the times they won games late, I've explained how it usually happened.

Take the game against the Jets for example. here's the play by play from ESPN of that final drive:



1st and 10 at DEN 5 Direction Change. (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to E.Royal pushed ob at DEN 13 for 8 yards (D.Revis).
2nd and 2 at DEN 13 T.Tebow right tackle to DEN 28 for 15 yards (E.Smith).
1st and 10 at DEN 28 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to D.Thomas pushed ob at DEN 37 for 9 yards (A.Cromartie).
2nd and 1 at DEN 37 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete deep left to D.Thomas.
3rd and 1 at DEN 37 (Shotgun) T.Tebow right guard to DEN 44 for 7 yards (D.Revis; E.Smith).
1st and 10 at DEN 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles right end to NYJ 47 for 9 yards (M.Dixon).
2nd and 1 at NYJ 47 (Shotgun) T.Tebow up the middle to NYJ 44 for 3 yards (J.Mauga).
1st and 10 at NYJ 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to D.Thomas.
2nd and 10 at NYJ 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep left to D.Rosario to NYJ 26 for 18 yards (E.Smith).
1st and 10 at NYJ 26 L.Ball up the middle to NYJ 23 for 3 yards (D.Harris).
2nd and 7 at NYJ 23 (Shotgun) T.Tebow up the middle to NYJ 20 for 3 yards (S.Pouha).
3rd and 4 at NYJ 20 (Shotgun) T.Tebow left end for 20 yards, TOUCHDOWN.



That's a 12 play drive, with 10 of those plays with Tebow in the Shotgun, and most of them were in Spread formation with 4 or 5 receivers.

Or how about the last 3 Denver drives against the Bears that all resulted in points?


Denver Broncos at 4:34 CHI DEN

1st and 10 at DEN 37 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to L.Ball to DEN 43 for 6 yards (T.Jennings).
2nd and 4 at DEN 43 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to L.Ball to CHI 47 for 10 yards (L.Briggs).
1st and 10 at CHI 47 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short middle to J.Johnson to CHI 39 for 8 yards (B.Urlacher).
2nd and 2 at CHI 39 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to J.Johnson pushed ob at CHI 36 for 3 yards (C.Tillman).
1st and 10 at CHI 36 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep middle to M.Willis to CHI 17 for 19 yards (L.Briggs).
1st and 10 at CHI 17 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short middle to D.Thomas to CHI 10 for 7 yards (D.Moore).
2nd and 3 at CHI 10 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to D.Thomas for 10 yards, TOUCHDOWN. 10 6



Denver Broncos at 0:53 CHI DEN

1st and 10 at DEN 20 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to E.Decker ran ob at DEN 29 for 9 yards.
2nd and 1 at DEN 29 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short left to L.Ball to DEN 40 for 11 yards (C.Tillman).
1st and 10 at DEN 40 T.Tebow spiked the ball to stop the clock.
2nd and 10 at DEN 40 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to M.Willis ran ob at CHI 41 for 19 yards.
1st and 10 at CHI 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short right to D.Thomas.
2nd and 10 at CHI 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to L.Ball.
3rd and 10 at CHI 41 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles left end ran ob at CHI 41 for no gain.
4th and 10 at CHI 41 M.Prater 59 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-B.Colquitt. 10 10



Denver Broncos at 12:47 CHI DEN

1st and 10 at DEN 34 Direction change to 34 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete deep left to M.Willis.
2nd and 10 at DEN 34 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to W.McGahee to DEN 36 for 2 yards (M.Toeaina).
3rd and 8 at DEN 36 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass short right to D.Thomas to DEN 46 for 10 yards (T.Jennings).
1st and 10 at DEN 46 (Shotgun) T.Tebow sacked at DEN 44 for -2 yards (S.Paea).
2nd and 12 at DEN 44 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep right to D.Thomas to CHI 40 for 16 yards (Z.Bowman).
1st and 10 at CHI 40 (Shotgun) W.McGahee left guard to CHI 39 for 1 yard (B.Urlacher).
2nd and 9 at CHI 39 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles up the middle to CHI 34 for 5 yards (B.Urlacher).
Timeout #1 by DEN at 09:23.
3rd and 4 at CHI 34 (Shotgun) T.Tebow left tackle to CHI 33 for 1 yard (A.Okoye).
Timeout #2 by CHI at 08:40.
4th and 3 at CHI 33 M.Prater 51 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-B.Colquitt. 10 13


Not counting kicks or spiking the ball, that's 21 plays with all 21 of them being run from the Shotgun, often with 4 or 5 receivers.

Or the drive to tie the score against SD and take the game into OT ?

Denver Broncos at 5:27 DEN SDG

1st and 10 at DEN 26 (Shotgun) W.McGahee up the middle to DEN 26 for no gain (T.Spikes).
2nd and 10 at DEN 26 (Shotgun) T.Tebow right end to DEN 25 for -1 yards (D.Butler).
3rd and 11 at DEN 25 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep right to E.Decker to SD 36 for 39 yards (P.Oliver). DEN-E.Decker was injured during the play. San Diego challenged the pass completion ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1.)
1st and 10 at SD 36 W.McGahee right end to SD 35 for 1 yard (D.Butler, V.Martin).
2nd and 9 at SD 35 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass deep right to D.Rosario to SD 12 for 23 yards (S.Gregory).
1st and 10 at SD 12 W.McGahee up the middle to SD 10 for 2 yards (D.Butler, T.Spikes).
2nd and 8 at SD 10 (Shotgun) T.Tebow pass incomplete short left to M.Willis.
3rd and 8 at SD 10 (Shotgun) T.Tebow scrambles up the middle to SD 6 for 4 yards (A.Barnes, S.Phillips).
Timeout #2 by SD at 01:38.
4th and 4 at SD 6 M.Prater 24 yard field goal is GOOD, Center-L.Paxton, Holder-B.Colquitt. 13 13



Of course, he wasn't successful on every single series that they ran predominately from the Shotgun, but then again, no teams are successful on EVERY series.

The simple fact of the matter though is that Tebow was much more successful operating out of the Shotgun and with spread formations and the numbers bear that out.

[Demosthenes9]

The second he lost Harvin, who was a circus catch machine at UF, and the older Pouncey brother to the draft, he beat one ranked team (LSU, which UF's defense won for them 13-3) and got man handled by the Tide in the SEC Championship his senior year. He lost a couple of first round NFL picks and crumbled. Its really that simple.


going to have some more fun with this and display what has to be your complete and total ignorance, or demonstrate that you are a frakking liar.

here's some stat's from Harvin's last year at Florida (2008):

Record: 13-1, .929 W-L% (2nd of 120)

Player Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate
Tim Tebow 192 298 64.4 2746 9.2 10.6 30 4 172.4

The following year (2009)

Record: 13-1, .929 W-L% (3rd of 120)

Player Cmp Att Pct Yds Y/A AY/A TD Int Rate
Tim Tebow 213 314 67.8 2895 9.2 9.8 21 5 164.2


Whooo Boy, can really see where Tebow and the rest of the guys at Florida completely crumbled after Percy Harvin left. I mean, their record fell from 13-1 all the way to 13-1. Winning percentage plunged from 92.9% all the way down to 92.9%.

Tebow's numbers of completions increased, his number of attempts increased, and his completion percentage increased. Yep, quite a fall off.

Oh, wait, there's a stat to look at. His QBR fell from 172.4 all the way down to 164.2. Want to know how terrible a freaking 164.2 QBR is ? Why, it's only a measly 16.5 pts HIGHER than Peyton Manning's HIGHEST RATING of 147.7 while at Tennessee, or 16.1 pts HIGHER than Eli Manning's HIGHEST RATING of 148.1 while at Ole Miss.

Yeah, they really crumbled pretty badly after Harvin left. /sarcasm.

Got any other really stupid things to say Phaytal ??


PS: BTW, while you basically tried to claim that they didn't really beat anyone to speak of, their freaking Strength of Schedule was #8 in the nation in 2009. They played against 3 Top 5 teams that season and went 2-1 against them.

[stephenpe]

bazinga..........

[phaytal]

Got any other really stupid things to say Phaytal ??

PS: BTW, while you basically tried to claim that they didn't really beat anyone to speak of, their freaking Strength of Schedule was #8 in the nation in 2009. They played against 3 Top 5 teams that season and went 2-1 against them.

2008 - UF, with Harvin, beat 6 ranked teams, and won a BCS National Championship.

2009 - UF, without Harvin, beat 2 ranked teams, including a ridiculously over-ranked Cincy team, and got crushed by #2 Bama in the SEC Championship.

Those two seasons are absolutely nothing alike, no matter how badly you want them to be.

[Bannon]

You see, if Tebow wins a championship, a division, or a playoff game, it's not the win that matters -- because his stats reveal the truth. It's the stats that matter.

But if Tebow loses a championship or a game, and stats are about the same, then winning is the only measure.

[phaytal]

Your sarcastic comment would hold water if both seasons had the same difficulty of opponents. Having to beat 5 ranked teams to get to a bowl game, and having to beat 2 ranked teams to get to a bowl game are night and day differences. In 2008, he won all 5, and beat the 6th. In 2009, he could only beat one of them, and got crushed by the other.

If he was the same Tebow without Harvin as you like to think he was, then his numbers should have gone up exponentially against a far, far weaker schedule, yes? So why did his QB rating go down?

/backfire

[reverseapachemaster]

Of course, he wasn't successful on every single series that they ran predominately from the Shotgun, but then again, no teams are successful on EVERY series.

The simple fact of the matter though is that Tebow was much more successful operating out of the Shotgun and with spread formations and the numbers bear that out.

Doesn't that mean he's only effective in one formation?

[Demosthenes9]

2008 - UF, with Harvin, beat 6 ranked teams, and won a BCS National Championship.

2009 - UF, without Harvin, beat 2 ranked teams, including a ridiculously over-ranked Cincy team, and got crushed by #2 Bama in the SEC Championship.

Those two seasons are absolutely nothing alike, no matter how badly you want them to be.

God, now you are really showing your stupidity. Yes, they only beat 2 ranked teams and lost to the third because they happened to only play 3 ranked teams that year.

What's to say that if they played 10 other ranked teams in 2009, that they wouldn't have won those games as well ? Their only loss was to the best team in the country, the team that won the NC.

You said they freaking crumbled after Harvin left. I clearly showed that they did not. Yes, they lost to Bama, but they still ended up being ranked #3 in the freaking country. Going from #1 to #3 is crumbling ?

Are you really that stupid or that much of a liar ?

[Demosthenes9]

Your sarcastic comment would hold water if both seasons had the same difficulty of opponents. Having to beat 5 ranked teams to get to a bowl game, and having to beat 2 ranked teams to get to a bowl game are night and day differences. In 2008, he won all 5, and beat the 6th. In 2009, he could only beat one of them, and got crushed by the other.

If he was the same Tebow without Harvin as you like to think he was, then his numbers should have gone up exponentially against a far, far weaker schedule, yes? So why did his QB rating go down?

/backfire

Strength of schedule for 08 was 5th in the country. SoS for 09 dropped all the way frakking down to 8th in the country. Yeah, a far weaker schedule.


And again, you continue to LIE since in 09, he won 2 of the games against ranked teams.

Oh, no, his QB rating went down to a lowly 164.2, WHICH IS STILL HIGHER than ANY RATING that Peyton or Eli Manning managed to achieve.

Again, he really crumbled there.

[Demosthenes9]

Doesn't that mean he's only effective in one formation?

One formation? No. One system ? Not really. By this I mean that you can run many different spread formations in a spread system. It's not like the NFL Wildcat where there is basically 1 formation.

As to the system, it means that it's the one he was most comfortable in last year. That doesn't preclude him from getting better and progressing in another system. Who knows, he might actually get really comfortable and learn how to drop back from under center and get his timing down. I mean, he did just that against Pittsburgh. Most of his passes in that game were on play action passes from under center, with only 2-3 receivers out running routes.

One thing to note though, say that he ends up only being able to do well in the spread option or plain spread system. Thing is, lots of NFL QBs are like that. Take them out of one system where they do well and put them in another system and they look terrible. It's why people talk about whether QB X is a good fit for a WCO, versus a EP offense.

[Barcs]

That's about as close as you can get to an "even" comparison of situations without them being identical.

Nope. You are still ignoring coaching and development. Do you believe that a rookie who spends the entire year on the bench does not develop at all? I'm sorry, but NFL experience is NFL experience. Comparing Tebow's first 16 starts to Sanchez is 100% illogical and invalid. Hell, lets look at Aaron Rodgers' or Tom Brady's first 16 starts. Do you really think his stats would be almost the same if he started his rookie year? You are way off base, not even close to reality making that apples to oranges comparison.

[Demosthenes9]

Nope. You are still ignoring coaching and development. Do you believe that a rookie who spends the entire year on the bench does not develop at all? I'm sorry, but NFL experience is NFL experience. Comparing Tebow's first 16 starts to Sanchez is 100% illogical and invalid.

Unless both QBs have the exact same situation, vis a vis, when they start in the league, the comparison I did is about as close as you can get.

I haven't ignored coaching and development, though, that even has to be looked at objectively. Tebow was the third string QB during his rookie TC while Sanchez got the first string reps.

Oh, but Tebow had another offseason you would argue. yes, an offseason severely shortened by the lockout. An off season where Denver also had a coaching change and a new system was put in place. An offseason where Tebow was still only the second string QB and perhaps even the third.

Remind me again of how long offseason was last year and how many OTAs/Practices teams actually had before the season started ?

Again, this wasn't a case like that of Aaron Rodgers, where you had a QB who sat and learned for 3 full offseasons as the #2 QB. Not even close.

[Bannon]

Doesn't that mean he's only effective in one formation?

His mechanics are not conducive to the quick drops or even quick read-and-fire reads. He'll need to improve on that or else.

Doesn't mean he has to get elite in that area, because he's got a lot going for him besides that. But he will need to reach consistent, repeatable competence in that area.

[Bannon]

Nope. You are still ignoring coaching and development. Do you believe that a rookie who spends the entire year on the bench does not develop at all? I'm sorry, but NFL experience is NFL experience. Comparing Tebow's first 16 starts to Sanchez is 100% illogical and invalid. Hell, lets look at Aaron Rodgers' or Tom Brady's first 16 starts. Do you really think his stats would be almost the same if he started his rookie year? You are way off base, not even close to reality making that apples to oranges comparison.

I pointed out some useful information in response to this complaint earlier -- Tebow's stats actually look better if you just look at rookie year. One of the reasons to consider his first 16 games is to give a bigger sample size and make it more fair. It's still not perfect, but it's about all you can do. After all, stats aren't everything.

Here's the earlier post in case you missed it (I looked up some numbers to make it):

It's just an attempt to try and level out the sample size -- if you just compare "rookie year" stats, Tebow was higher than Sanchez in quarterback rating, yards per attempt, touchdown pass percentage, interception percentage (lower), etc.

So Tebow's stats need the "normalization" of a larger sample size just to bring it to within range. His passing stats are not much affected by including games he didn't start.

The point is not to say Tebow has been better than Sanchez. The point is to provide context, and a little bit of reasonableness to all the people who attempt to stand on the idea that Tebow has been supposedly "horrible" statistically.

(To be fair, people also say Sanchez can't cut it, and cite his stats. So it's not like we're comparing Montana and Elway here, statistically).

[Demosthenes9]

Nope. You are still ignoring coaching and development. Do you believe that a rookie who spends the entire year on the bench does not develop at all? I'm sorry, but NFL experience is NFL experience. Comparing Tebow's first 16 starts to Sanchez is 100% illogical and invalid. Hell, lets look at Aaron Rodgers' or Tom Brady's first 16 starts. Do you really think his stats would be almost the same if he started his rookie year? You are way off base, not even close to reality making that apples to oranges comparison.

What the heck, given what I said in my other reply still does apply, let's go ahead and compare Mark's 2nd year as a starter, his 19th - 33rd overall start.



Passing Rushing
Cmp Att Cmp% Yds TD Int Rate Y/A AY/A Att Yds Y/A TD
Sanchez 278 507 54.80% 3291 17 13 75.3 6.49 6.01 30 105 3.5 3
Tebow 172 362 46.78% 2618 17 9 82.53 7.70 7.92 156 872 5.61 9





Yep, Sanchez had a higher comp %, attempted and completed more passes and threw for 673 more yards, an avg of 44.87 more ypg.

BUT, Tebow ran from 767 more yards than Sanchez, for an avg of 51.13 more ypg.

Combining totals puts Sanchez at 3396 total yards while Tebow had 3490.

Also, Sanchez had 17 passing TDs, as did Tebow. Sanchez had 13 INTS while Tebow only had 9. Sanchez rushed for 3 TDs while Tebow ran for 9. That brings total TDs to 20 for Sanchez, and 26 for Tebow. (Am looking to try and find fumble stats for both Sanchez and Tebow as they should be included as well.)

And lastly, let's look at QB Rating. For Sanchez, it's 75.3 while Tebow earned an 82.3.

Again, let me reiterate that these are that stats for Sanchez's 19th - 33rd start in the league, after he had 2 full complete offseasons and TCs as the first string Starter and 18 NFL starts already to his name, compared to Tebow's 1st - 15th start, with no offseasons or TC as a starter, and one of his two offseasons was severely abbreviated by the lockout.

Comparing the two, Tebow gained more yards, put more TDs on the board, had fewer INTs/turnovers (pretty sure that's still the case even with his fumbles) had a higher Yards per attempt, a higher Adjusted yards per attempt, and a higher passer rating.

Now, by all means, go ahead and tell me what is supposedly unfair for Sanchez about this comparison.

[Bannon]

Now, by all means, go ahead and tell me what is supposedly unfair for Sanchez about this comparison.

The funny thing is, comparing the stats of Sanchez and Tebow is like comparing the grades of two of the dumbest kids in the class. For both of them, you have to look behind the stats and understand the type of situation they were put in, and what they were called upon to do. Their value doesn't yet show up as good stats.

Neither one of them has laid down the statistical measuring bar of success -- but showing they are comparable just illustrates that Tebow's not some extreme outlier that needs to be shot.

[Demosthenes9]

The funny thing is, comparing the stats of Sanchez and Tebow is like comparing the grades of two of the dumbest kids in the class. For both of them, you have to look behind the stats and understand the type of situation they were put in, and what they were called upon to do. Their value doesn't yet show up as good stats.

Neither one of them has laid down the statistical measuring bar of success -- but showing they are comparable just illustrates that Tebow's not some extreme outlier that needs to be shot.

That's the key right there. :)

[Barcs]

Now, by all means, go ahead and tell me what is supposedly unfair for Sanchez about this comparison.

The fact that they both played different roles for their respective teams, for different coaches, with different players. Of course Tebow had more rushing yards, he barely throws the ball! You can't make any comparisons between Mark Sanchez and Tebow because their careers are night and day different. It doesn't matter which stats, you cherry pick, the comparison is silly and both guys are still developing and haven't reach their potential yet. What matters is the skill of Sanchez NOW and the skill of Tebow NOW. Comparing QB rookie and sophomore years as indicators of who is more skilled than another is a fallacy. Most QBs don't start getting it together until 3-4 years. We can compare Tebow and Sanchez then.

[metsnjets]

Cam is good, but if you think he would have had the same numbers he had in Carolina last year in Denver, you are mistaken. At least, not under the same conditions that Tebow had. Don't forget that while Cam had stats, he lost quite a few games in the clutch with turnovers.

BTW, I like Cam... had him as my starting QB in fantasy football. I personally think Tebow is better.

Then you have absolutely no concept of the QB position in the NFL and what consitutes a good one.

Scum is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Tebow in the ability to play the position and there isn't a single coach, gm, scout, or talking head that would agree with you.

[metsnjets]

He had the best college team on the planet ? Surely you aren't forgetting the USC team that Sanchez played for. I do believe they had 11 players drafted into the NFL that year, which led all colleges.

And guess what ? Even having the 'best team" doesn't get you a NC. It often takes more than talent.

As for Tebow having the same record as Dalton, Dalton also had a phenomenal receiver in AJ Green and a coaching staff that actually believe in him. Doesn't hurt that he's a more developed passer as well.

As for Sanchez, are you sure that you want to go down that route ? If you do, we can look at the fact that through their first 16 starts, Tebow has much better overall stats than Sanchez, AND better passing stats. This, even though Sanchez was given the starting job immediately and was taking first team snaps in OTAs and TC from the get go, whereas Tebow didn't have the same opportunities.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that Tebow is better than Sanchez right now or that Tebow should be the starter. Sanchez has more experience, has had more NFL experience to develop and is the better passer right now.

My point was nobody playing in the NFL "just knows how to win" because more often than not even the great ones lose a ton of games in their careers. Its this hyperbole that gets in my craw. Tebow doesn't just know how to win he has 7 losses compared to 9 wins. Whoop-de-friggin do.

[CowboysFan]

2008 - UF, with Harvin, beat 6 ranked teams, and won a BCS National Championship.

2009 - UF, without Harvin, beat 2 ranked teams, including a ridiculously over-ranked Cincy team, and got crushed by #2 Bama in the SEC Championship.

Those two seasons are absolutely nothing alike, no matter how badly you want them to be.

so now all that matters is wins? can not have it both ways.....

[metsnjets]

The funny thing is, comparing the stats of Sanchez and Tebow is like comparing the grades of two of the dumbest kids in the class. For both of them, you have to look behind the stats and understand the type of situation they were put in, and what they were called upon to do. Their value doesn't yet show up as good stats.

Neither one of them has laid down the statistical measuring bar of success -- but showing they are comparable just illustrates that Tebow's not some extreme outlier that needs to be shot.

No but his fans do.

[Demosthenes9]

The fact that they both played different roles for their respective teams, for different coaches, with different players. Of course Tebow had more rushing yards, he barely throws the ball! You can't make any comparisons between Mark Sanchez and Tebow because their careers are night and day different. It doesn't matter which stats, you cherry pick, the comparison is silly and both guys are still developing and haven't reach their potential yet. What matters is the skill of Sanchez NOW and the skill of Tebow NOW. Comparing QB rookie and sophomore years as indicators of who is more skilled than another is a fallacy. Most QBs don't start getting it together until 3-4 years. We can compare Tebow and Sanchez then.

Actually, whether it matters or not depends on what is being argued. I have said repeatedly that Sanchez is the better QB right now and that he should start. Makes sense as he has more NFL experience and is the better passer.

BUT, if you are just looking at Tebow and evaluating his performance thus far as an NFL QB and considering his future prospects, then it absolutely makes sense to compare his stats to those of Sanchez.

As I demonstrated, Tebow's stats compare pretty favorably to those of Sanchez. For a guy who supposedly can't pass, he averaged only 40 something yards less per game passing than Sanchez, and he had a higher TD/Pass ratio, as well as a lower TD/INT ratio.

As to the rushing stats, Sanchez would never survive running as much as Tebow did/does. That's not a knock against him, just a difference in style. Whether you agree or not, the rushing yards that Tebow gets really do need to be included in his totals yards when making any kind of comparison.

Lastly, as you said, and I completely agree, most QBs take more than 1 or 2 years to "get it together" as an NFL QB. Then again, I'm the one arguing that Tebow is a young QB who doesn't have much experience, and that it's waaaaaaay to early to judge him a failure or say that he'll "never be an NFL QB".

[Demosthenes9]

Then you have absolutely no concept of the QB position in the NFL and what consitutes a good one.

Scum is LIGHT YEARS ahead of Tebow in the ability to play the position and there isn't a single coach, gm, scout, or talking head that would agree with you.

Now you are demonstrating that you can't, or won't bother, to read what you are actually responding to.

I'll repeat the statement:

Cam is good, but if you think he would have had the same numbers he had in Carolina last year in Denver, you are mistaken. At least, not under the same conditions that Tebow had.

Do you see any mention of Tebow putting up better numbers than Cam, or Cam putting up worse numbers than Tebow ?

What was rather clearly stated was that IF Cam had played for Denver, UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS that Tebow was under, Cam wouldn't have put up the same numbers that he did at Carolina. I.e. Carolina's SYSTEM and it's coaches have a lot to do with the numbers Cam put up, AND if Cam had been playing under Fox/McCoy in Denver, his numbers would have been much lower.

[Demosthenes9]

My point was nobody playing in the NFL "just knows how to win" because more often than not even the great ones lose a ton of games in their careers. Its this hyperbole that gets in my craw. Tebow doesn't just know how to win he has 7 losses compared to 9 wins. Whoop-de-friggin do.

Funny thing is that there are a number of HoF'ers,a number of current and former coaches, and a number of current players who say the same thing about Tim Tebow.

Saying that he "has IT" and that he has a knack for winning, or just knows how to win certainly doesn't mean that he's going to win every single game.

Tell me, if I said "Joe Montana is a frakking winner who simply refused to lose", would you get your panties in an uproar over it and point out that he lost on more than one occassion ??

[SDI_Gator]

Do you see any mention of Tebow putting up better numbers than Cam, or Cam putting up worse numbers than Tebow ?

What was rather clearly stated was that IF Cam had played for Denver, UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS that Tebow was under, Cam wouldn't have put up the same numbers that he did at Carolina. I.e. Carolina's SYSTEM and it's coaches have a lot to do with the numbers Cam put up, AND if Cam had been playing under Fox/McCoy in Denver, his numbers would have been much lower.

But you mentioned Tebow in a manner that could be considered positive. Therefore you are a Teboi/Tebonehead/homer etc. and cannot possibly have anything related to a valid argument. So they just read what they want and spit out the hate.

[reverseapachemaster]

Tell me, if I said "Joe Montana is a frakking winner who simply refused to lose", would you get your panties in an uproar over it and point out that he lost on more than one occassion ??

No but I would still think it's a stupid thing to say.

[TTTTebowAndTheJets]

No but his fans do.

So his fans want him shot??? Gotcha :up:

[phaytal]

so now all that matters is wins? can not have it both ways.....

You are a little late to the party, and taking my quote completely out of context. Try to keep up.

I was simply pointing out to Demosthenes9 that a season that involves playing 6 ranked teams, and beating them all, with Percy Harvin, is very, very different than playing 3 ranked teams and losing to one of them, without Percy Harvin.

He was trying to show that losing Percy Harvin did not change the Gators one bit. I was just showing him that he was an idiot. That is all.

[Coach K]

Cam is good, but if you think he would have had the same numbers he had in Carolina last year in Denver, you are mistaken. At least, not under the same conditions that Tebow had. Don't forget that while Cam had stats, he lost quite a few games in the clutch with turnovers.

BTW, I like Cam... had him as my starting QB in fantasy football. I personally think Tebow is better.

Rofl

Denver d>>>>>carolina d.

That alone is laughable.

You can give tim all the props you want but Newton is inarguably a better qb and player.

[hutch2426]

I believe Cam is a better QB by far, but you do know that Carolina only gave up 2 more points a game and less than 20 yards more a game. That's not really laughable.

[metsnjets]

Now you are demonstrating that you can't, or won't bother, to read what you are actually responding to.

I'll repeat the statement:



Do you see any mention of Tebow putting up better numbers than Cam, or Cam putting up worse numbers than Tebow ?

What was rather clearly stated was that IF Cam had played for Denver, UNDER THE SAME CONDITIONS that Tebow was under, Cam wouldn't have put up the same numbers that he did at Carolina. I.e. Carolina's SYSTEM and it's coaches have a lot to do with the numbers Cam put up, AND if Cam had been playing under Fox/McCoy in Denver, his numbers would have been much lower.

You have no way knowing that. It's called conjecture. For all you know Scum could have done better in Denver. You THINK he could have done or would have done worse but you don't KNOW anything. Big difference...all you are doing is making excuses as to why a real rookie QB is 10x better than your beloved Tebow already.

[metsnjets]

Funny thing is that there are a number of HoF'ers,a number of current and former coaches, and a number of current players who say the same thing about Tim Tebow.

Saying that he "has IT" and that he has a knack for winning, or just knows how to win certainly doesn't mean that he's going to win every single game.

Tell me, if I said "Joe Montana is a frakking winner who simply refused to lose", would you get your panties in an uproar over it and point out that he lost on more than one occassion ??

Yes I would because its bullshit. and oh yeah, I hate joe montana. System QB that won because he had more talent around him than most teams see in 20 years. Walsh was the reason Montana became a legend. you put Joe in detroit and he is Eric Hipple.

[Demosthenes9]

You are a little late to the party, and taking my quote completely out of context. Try to keep up.

I was simply pointing out to Demosthenes9 that a season that involves playing 6 ranked teams, and beating them all, with Percy Harvin, is very, very different than playing 3 ranked teams and losing to one of them, without Percy Harvin.

He was trying to show that losing Percy Harvin did not change the Gators one bit. I was just showing him that he was an idiot. That is all.

Again showing yourself to be a liar and/or an idiot. YOU are the one who brought Percy Harvin into the discussion. YOU are the one who said that Tebow and Florida CRUMBLED when Percy left.

I never said that there was absolutely no change. What I demonstrated is that you were completely and absolutely wrong. Yes, there was a very small change, and Florida wasn't quite as good. BUT, they still went 13-1. They ended up #3 instead of #1. Tebow passed for more yards but had a slightly lower passer rating.

THAT ISN'T CRUMBLING after Harvin left you half wit.

[Demosthenes9]

You have no way knowing that. It's called conjecture. For all you know Scum could have done better in Denver. You THINK he could have done or would have done worse but you don't KNOW anything. Big difference...all you are doing is making excuses as to why a real rookie QB is 10x better than your beloved Tebow already.

Of course it's conjecture sunshine. That's something that's done all the time. It's like saying "Mark Sanchez would have done better if he had a right tackle who could actually block".

IMHO, the coaching staff at Carolina did a much better job. They provided Newton with some very good weapons on offense AND they truly tailored the offense to his strengths in that they actually ran the Spread Option and Cam did a great job with it.

Would Tebow have done as well as Cam did in the same offense ? No, as Cam is a better passer. Would Tebow have done better than he did in Denver ? Yes, I do think so.

[Barcs]

BUT, if you are just looking at Tebow and evaluating his performance thus far as an NFL QB and considering his future prospects, then it absolutely makes sense to compare his stats to those of Sanchez.
No it doesn't. You should compare him to another QB that didn't start his rookie year.

As I demonstrated, Tebow's stats compare pretty favorably to those of Sanchez. For a guy who supposedly can't pass, he averaged only 40 something yards less per game passing than Sanchez, and he had a higher TD/Pass ratio, as well as a lower TD/INT ratio.
Again, you can't compare them because they had vastly different roles. Tebow is a known running threat. The reason his throwing was successful was because teams expected him to run it every time. When he switched it up and did a deep pass teams didn't expect it, so it wasn't always well defended. These types of things affect stats like that. If Tebow threw more often, his ypa would drop significantly.

As to the rushing stats, Sanchez would never survive running as much as Tebow did/does. That's not a knock against him, just a difference in style. Whether you agree or not, the rushing yards that Tebow gets really do need to be included in his totals yards when making any kind of comparison.
This is true. Sanchez barely runs it, but he was very effective from the goal line last year. He had 6 rushing touchdowns on top of his 26 passing TDs.

Lastly, as you said, and I completely agree, most QBs take more than 1 or 2 years to "get it together" as an NFL QB. Then again, I'm the one arguing that Tebow is a young QB who doesn't have much experience, and that it's waaaaaaay to early to judge him a failure or say that he'll "never be an NFL QB".

Yep. I definitely agree, it's way to early to dismiss Tebow.

[Demosthenes9]

Yep. I definitely agree, it's way to early to dismiss Tebow.


That's the only reason I was making the comparison. :)

[Coach K]

I believe Cam is a better QB by far, but you do know that Carolina only gave up 2 more points a game and less than 20 yards more a game. That's not really laughable.

Ahh more convenient stats. Denvers defense was better. Has better talent and got more consistent pressure. Carolina also got gutted on the ground to keep cam off the field.

[Barcs]

That's the only reason I was making the comparison. :)

That's cool. As long as you're not one of those guys that thinks that comparison is valid and means that Tebow is just as good as Sanchez, because at this point, that is not the case. I'm excited to see Tebow in his new role with the team.

[catsigater]

Ahh more convenient stats. Denvers defense was better. Has better talent and got more consistent pressure. Carolina also got gutted on the ground to keep cam off the field.

Carolina was 25th in rushing defense, allowing 130.8 ypg. Denver's more talented defense was 22nd, allowing 126.3 ypg.

[phaytal]

Carolina was 25th in rushing defense, allowing 130.8 ypg. Denver's more talented defense was 22nd, allowing 126.3 ypg.

Considering that most of the season Denver's D had barely enough time to get off the field before Tebow went 3-and-out, I think they played absolutely amazing.

The league average for possessions in a game, is 12. Denver's opponents averaged 13.5 possessions per game.

[hutch2426]

Very interesting, link please.

[catsigater]

Considering that most of the season Denver's D had barely enough time to get off the field before Tebow went 3-and-out, I think they played absolutely amazing.

The league average for possessions in a game, is 12. Denver's opponents averaged 13.5 possessions per game.

Agreed, and I wasn't dissing Denver's D at all, just trying to keep things objective, which I know is a big concern of yours as well.

This is interesting...

Opponent's average time of possession...

Rank 24 Denver 2011: 51.55% Last 3: 47.08% Last 1: 44.36% Home: 52.89% Away: 50.22% 2010: 53.07%

They did quite a bit better in T.O.P. in 2011 vs. 2010.

Also, opponents plays per game was very slightly better in 2011 (66.0) vs. 2010 (66.4).

Denver averaged exactly 66.3 plays per game in both 2010 and 2011.

All stats above from To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

[Bannon]

Agreed, and I wasn't dissing Denver's D at all, just trying to keep things objective, which I know is a big concern of yours as well.

This is interesting...

Opponent's average time of possession...

Rank 24 Denver 2011: 51.55% Last 3: 47.08% Last 1: 44.36% Home: 52.89% Away: 50.22% 2010: 53.07%

They did quite a bit better in T.O.P. in 2011 vs. 2010.

Also, opponents plays per game was very slightly better in 2011 (66.0) vs. 2010 (66.4).

Denver averaged exactly 66.3 plays per game in both 2010 and 2011.

All stats above from To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

The run game actually wasn't all that great -- they led the league in rushing primarily because they rushed it so much. But it killed a lot of drives when they would call run, run, pass. Sure, Tebow would fail to complete a pass (it happens a lot anyway), but putting him in that corner didn't help.

Plus they were so predictable -- it got to where I could spot that play every time where Decker sets up out wide, then goes in motion and sets up right next to the O-line, i.e. blocking for a run.

They just never deployed what looked like a series of plays that worked well together, designed plays that look the same but do something different.

Except Pittsburgh -- I've got to admit McCoy called a great game that game.

[TTTTebowAndTheJets]

Considering that most of the season Denver's D had barely enough time to get off the field before Tebow went 3-and-out, I think they played absolutely amazing.

The league average for possessions in a game, is 12. Denver's opponents averaged 13.5 possessions per game.

Its crap like this... If the Bronco's win a game... heaven help you if you say that Tebow won, or even had anything to do with it... it was the Team, in fact, they won in SPITE of Tebow. But when that same team runs up the middle 2 times in a row for 3 total yards and Tebow is forced to convert on 3rd and long over and over again with all his receivers running go routes, well then... TEBOW went 3 and out... interesting.

Can't have it both ways

[catsigater]

The run game actually wasn't all that great -- they led the league in rushing primarily because they rushed it so much. But it killed a lot of drives when they would call run, run, pass. Sure, Tebow would fail to complete a pass (it happens a lot anyway), but putting him in that corner didn't help.

Plus they were so predictable -- it got to where I could spot that play every time where Decker sets up out wide, then goes in motion and sets up right next to the O-line, i.e. blocking for a run.

They just never deployed what looked like a series of plays that worked well together, designed plays that look the same but do something different.

Except Pittsburgh -- I've got to admit McCoy called a great game that game.
Yep, they were extremely predictable. A lot of folks blamed that on McCoy, but I do think a good deal of that is that they just weren't confident enough to let Tebow pass on first and second down. You could make a case they had reason for that lack of confidence.

My take is that if they had a QB they were invested in when they let Orton go, when the season appeared lost, they would've just let him play QB and make his mistakes and come back next year.

It was just a really weird situation with Tebow. They didn't believe in him (maybe with good reason), so they didn't try to develop him. But he screwed 'em up because he kept winning games.

So then, when it dawned on them they could actually make the playoffs, instead of trying to develop him knowing the season was over, they did what his college coaches did, and put in the offense they thought they could win with.

So the Broncos won, Tebow didn't develop his passing game, and they got rid of him when Manning became available.

And please, this isn't a "poor Timmy" post.

I honestly think they intended to try and work with him. I think Elway meant it when he said Tim's earned the right to be the starter going into training camp, which meant they would work with him.

But I also think they were going to either draft a QB who would go in and compete or have a situation like Miami where they'd bring in someone like Garrard, and say, "Tim" you're the starter, until either the rookie or the veteran takes it away from you," fully expecting (maybe even hoping, in Elway's case) that one or the other would happen.

[Demosthenes9]

Considering that most of the season Denver's D had barely enough time to get off the field before Tebow went 3-and-out, I think they played absolutely amazing.

The league average for possessions in a game, is 12. Denver's opponents averaged 13.5 possessions per game.

Wow, "league average" for "possessions" huh ? Wouldn't that be roughly 16 teams above and 16 teams below ? Furthermore, wouldn't that number be negatively impacted by a very porous defense that couldn't stop anything ? I mean, say, a team like the Pats scoring on every single possession in the first half of a game ?

[Demosthenes9]

That's cool. As long as you're not one of those guys that thinks that comparison is valid and means that Tebow is just as good as Sanchez, because at this point, that is not the case. I'm excited to see Tebow in his new role with the team.

Oh, the comparison itself is quite valid. Thing is though, you have to take other factors into acct.

Just for the sake of argument, say that you agreed that it was valid to compare Tebow's first 15 starts to those of Sanchez. An issue arises due to the fact that you then have to factor in Sanchez's other 2 seasons worth of starts.

In short, due to the fact that Sanchez entered the league 1 year earlier AND has been a starter since coming into the league, he has the benefit of a head start. He has 53 starts to his credit along with all the experience and development that goes along with those starts. Tebow has a total of 16.

Now, we could debate whether or not Tebow would be a better QB than Mark was after he's racked up 53 starts as well, you know, "being roughly at the same stage of their respective careers", BUT, that's a completely different question than asking "who is better Qb RIGHT NOW?"

[Demosthenes9]

Yep, they were extremely predictable. A lot of folks blamed that on McCoy, but I do think a good deal of that is that they just weren't confident enough to let Tebow pass on first and second down. You could make a case they had reason for that lack of confidence.



For all the kudos and accolades McCoy got for "tailoring" the offense to Tebow's strong points, the fact is, if that is what he really meant to do, he did a terrible, half assed job of it.

The offense that Tebow ran at Florida was much more varied and complex than anything Denver came close to running.

[SDI_Gator]

I think they gave him the kudos because no one thought they would/should run that type of offense in the nfl. No one that knows the spread offense would say he called a good one.

[Demosthenes9]

I think they gave him the kudos because no one thought they would/should run that type of offense in the nfl. No one that knows the spread offense would say he called a good one.

Heh, yeah, didn't run a good spread offense and didn't run a good option offense either. Let alone an actual Spread Option offense :)

[ToneTime69d]

i dont like tebow because he is a terrible football player

rudy was a nice kid also but nice and hard working doesnt equal good

[catsigater]

i dont like tebow because he is a terrible football player

rudy was a nice kid also but nice and hard working doesnt equal good
Funny, out of the volumes of criticism of Tebow as a QB, I've not heard one player, coach, or analyst say he's a terrible football player.

[SDI_Gator]

Funny, out of the volumes of criticism of Tebow as a QB, I've not heard one player, coach, or analyst say he's a terrible football player.

Haters gonna hate.

[metsnjets]

For all the kudos and accolades McCoy got for "tailoring" the offense to Tebow's strong points, the fact is, if that is what he really meant to do, he did a terrible, half assed job of it.

The offense that Tebow ran at Florida was much more varied and complex than anything Denver came close to running.

Please tell me you aren't holding McCoy accountable for not installing a full fucking system in a few weeks time?

Seriously, is there anything you wont blame on somone else. Tebow had 4 years under the Florida system and I am sure they made tweaks here and there and you expect an NFL OC to completely change an offense in about 3/4 of a season? WOW.

All i can say is the NFL thought so highly of what McCoy did with a shitty QB that he had interviews for an HC job.

Let me clue you in on something, it wasn't McCoy missing WR's and taking 15 seconds to throw the ball, Tebow is so bad THEY WOULDNT let him AUDIBLE because HE CANT READ A DEFENSE to save his life.

Was McCoys play calling bland and predictable?YES. but not because he wanted it that way because HE HAD NO OTHER CHOICE.

[Barcs]

Oh, the comparison itself is quite valid. Thing is though, you have to take other factors into acct.

Just for the sake of argument, say that you agreed that it was valid to compare Tebow's first 15 starts to those of Sanchez. An issue arises due to the fact that you then have to factor in Sanchez's other 2 seasons worth of starts.

In short, due to the fact that Sanchez entered the league 1 year earlier AND has been a starter since coming into the league, he has the benefit of a head start. He has 53 starts to his credit along with all the experience and development that goes along with those starts. Tebow has a total of 16.

Now, we could debate whether or not Tebow would be a better QB than Mark was after he's racked up 53 starts as well, you know, "being roughly at the same stage of their respective careers", BUT, that's a completely different question than asking "who is better Qb RIGHT NOW?"

Well that's exactly why the comparison is not valid. Comparing somebody's first 16 starts in a rookie season to somebody's first 16 starts later on, is not logical, no matter how you spin it. If you think it's fair, then you need a logic 101 course. There's not enough hard data to compare, plus they are very different types of players. Like I said, give Tebow another couple years in the league, THEN you can start comparing careers. Sanchez and Tebow are BOTH still developing. And don't forget Tebow had a year or so to learn before he really started seeing minutes. Sanchez only had 1 year of college experience then got thrown straight to the wolves and started right away in the NFL. Most rookie QBs go through their struggles. If that was the case with Tebow, his stats would probably be very similar to Sanchez for the rookie year. But it's not, so the comparison is illogical. It's just as valid as comparing Tebow's LAST 15 starts to Sanchez' last 15 starts. It makes no sense.

[Bannon]

Well that's exactly why the comparison is not valid. Comparing somebody's first 16 starts in a rookie season to somebody's first 16 starts later on, is not logical, no matter how you spin it. If you think it's fair, then you need a logic 101 course. There's not enough hard data to compare, plus they are very different types of players. Like I said, give Tebow another couple years in the league, THEN you can start comparing careers. Sanchez and Tebow are BOTH still developing. And don't forget Tebow had a year or so to learn before he really started seeing minutes. Sanchez only had 1 year of college experience then got thrown straight to the wolves and started right away in the NFL. Most rookie QBs go through their struggles. If that was the case with Tebow, his stats would probably be very similar to Sanchez for the rookie year. But it's not, so the comparison is illogical. It's just as valid as comparing Tebow's LAST 15 starts to Sanchez' last 15 starts. It makes no sense.

It's an invalid comparison if the goal or question is "Who is better, Sanchez or Tebow?"

But it's a valid comparison if the goal or question is "How horrible was Tebow? Were his statistics an extreme outlier?" For that, you have to just look at some comparators, and Sanzhez is one of them -- junior QB on a run-oriented team.

[phaytal]

Wow, "league average" for "possessions" huh ? Wouldn't that be roughly 16 teams above and 16 teams below ? Furthermore, wouldn't that number be negatively impacted by a very porous defense that couldn't stop anything ? I mean, say, a team like the Pats scoring on every single possession in the first half of a game ?

There you go thinking you know anything about football again. The Patriots only had 12 possessions in the playoff game. A higher possession count game typically comes from going 3-and-out often, and from turning the ball over. You know, things that happen quickly. They dont come from sustained drives. You know, things that Tebow is very bad at.

Nice guess though.

[phaytal]

Its crap like this... If the Bronco's win a game... heaven help you if you say that Tebow won, or even had anything to do with it... it was the Team, in fact, they won in SPITE of Tebow. But when that same team runs up the middle 2 times in a row for 3 total yards and Tebow is forced to convert on 3rd and long over and over again with all his receivers running go routes, well then... TEBOW went 3 and out... interesting.

Can't have it both ways

He led the league in 3-and-outs because he sucks, not because he was not given and opportunity to succeed. You ignored my post the last time you brought up this stupid Tebow misnomer, so I'll remind you:

How many of those 3 and outs had Tim's first pass attempt on 3rd down? I'd say 80%+. It was so frustrating watching your coach hender him by running on first and second down the entire game until the 4th quarter (crazy how the game always seemed to change in the 4th). Any quarterback would struggle when allowed to pass 6 times in a half... all of which are on 3rd and medium to long.

You sure you want to stick to this ridiculous assumption, or are you just guessing?

Lets look at the game that Tebow set the NFL record for consecutive 3-and-outs, shall we:

1st Half:
1st down passes : 4
2nd down passes: 5 (1 sack)
3rd down passes: 6 (2 sacks)
4th down passes 1

The Broncos had 7 possessions, and only once did Tebow throw his first pass of the series on 3rd down. So it's more like 14%, not 80%. You were close though. :rolleyes: Maybe you'll be closer in the second half.

2nd Half:
1st down passes : 12
2nd down passes: 10 (2 sack, and 2 fumbles)
3rd down passes: 6
4th down passes 1

In the 2nd half, the Broncos had 9 possessions. Care to guess how many times 3rd down was the first pass play called? 0. None. So throughout the course of the game that Tim Tebow set an NFL record for consecutive 3-and-outs, 6% of the time third down was the first pass play called. 6%. Thats pretty different than the 80% you claimed. Nice try though.

Source: To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

[Demosthenes9]

There you go thinking you know anything about football again. The Patriots only had 12 possessions in the playoff game. A higher possession count game typically comes from going 3-and-out often, and from turning the ball over. You know, things that happen quickly. They dont come from sustained drives. You know, things that Tebow is very bad at.

Nice guess though.

It would also come from teams scoring basically at will. Try using some logic and thinking it through.

[FakeSpike13]

Phaytal...You amuse me...

What kind of person follows a QB that is no longer on his team to another MB just to bash him.

He's not on your team anymore...Why do you care so much that you feel the need to come over here and convince everyone he sucks?

[Barcs]

It's an invalid comparison if the goal or question is "Who is better, Sanchez or Tebow?"

But it's a valid comparison if the goal or question is "How horrible was Tebow? Were his statistics an extreme outlier?" For that, you have to just look at some comparators, and Sanzhez is one of them -- junior QB on a run-oriented team.

No. For that you look at Tebows stats and compare them to QBs with similar situations. The comparison is invalid and illogical no matter what question you are asking, and please don't try to pretend that people weren't bringing it up to show Tebow is on par or better than Sanchez when he's clearly not. I love the kid, but you guys really need to get off your knees and stop this blind cock worship fest. People weren't going crazy comparing Mark Brunell to Mark Sanchez last season. There's no reason people should be doing it this year. The goal is for them both to play well and feed off each other's intensity and work ethic. This blind worship of Tebow (and hence switching teams whenever he moves) is ridiculous and its the reason we had to make a Tebow section on this site when there's never been a section dedicated to a single player before on here. All I'm saying is simmer down. Be patient and give Tebow time to develop before proclaiming him as some amazing QB, when he hasn't done SHIT in the league yet. Lets talk about the Jets winning, not one player who's a backup QB.

[phaytal]

Phaytal...You amuse me...

What kind of person follows a QB that is no longer on his team to another MB just to bash him.

He's not on your team anymore...Why do you care so much that you feel the need to come over here and convince everyone he sucks?

Being a Colorado native, and a UF grad, I got to see the Tebow idiocy unfold first hand. I watched headlines from every media outlet shift from reporting on the Gators, to reporting on Tebow his freshman year. I watched as he was credited for leading his team to a National Championship as a freshman, when in reality he was an extremely small part of a Chris Leak led team. I watched over the next three years how he was surrounded by arguably the greatest NCAA team ever assembled, yet he received 100% of the praise. And then I watched him choke against Bama in the SEC Championship game when he had the far better football team.

Next I got to see my Alma Mater represented globally by a naive Christian fundamentalist, during the biggest sporting event in the world, preaching an anti-abortion message funded by the SPLC documented hate group Focus on the Family.

And if that weren't enough of an insult, I got to watch Mike Shannahan get fired and Josh McDaniels get hired, only to gut my offense (Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler), and to bring in Kyle Orton, and waste 3 draft picks on who else, but Tim fucking Tebow.

Next, I watched as Tim Tebow was showered with praise for single-handedly turning around the Broncos season last year by shitting the bed for the first 55 minutes of every game, and being bailed out by our defense, special teams, and idiotic schemes and plays by our opponents.

Finally, in a very bittersweet, but glorious day, I watched as a wasted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick was given away for a single 4th round pick just 2 years later, in what will go down as one of the worst draft decisions in our franchise's history.

Is that enough of a reason?

Plus, fucking with the Tebow cult is fun.

[FakeSpike13]

Being a Colorado native, and a UF grad, I got to see the Tebow idiocy unfold first hand. I watched headlines from every media outlet shift from reporting on the Gators, to reporting on Tebow his freshman year. I watched as he was credited for leading his team to a National Championship as a freshman, when in reality he was an extremely small part of a Chris Leak led team. I watched over the next three years how he was surrounded by arguably the greatest NCAA team ever assembled, yet he received 100% of the praise. And then I watched him choke against Bama in the SEC Championship game when he had the far better football team.

Next I got to see my Alma Mater represented globally by a naive Christian fundamentalist, during the biggest sporting event in the world, preaching an anti-abortion message funded by the SPLC documented hate group Focus on the Family.

And if that weren't enough of an insult, I got to watch Mike Shannahan get fired and Josh McDaniels get hired, only to gut my offense (Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler), and to bring in Kyle Orton, and waste 3 draft picks on who else, but Tim fucking Tebow.

Next, I watched as Tim Tebow was showered with praise for single-handedly turning around the Broncos season last year by shitting the bed for the first 55 minutes of every game, and being bailed out by our defense, special teams, and idiotic schemes and plays by our opponents.

Finally, in a very bittersweet, but glorious day, I watched as a wasted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick was given away for a single 4th round pick just 2 years later, in what will go down as one of the worst draft decisions in our franchise's history.

Is that enough of a reason?

Plus, fucking with the Tebow cult is fun.

So its personal...got it.

I already suspected it, but at least it is now confirmed that your assessment of Tebow's on the field play isn't very objective and thus should be taken with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your honesty.

[NewEnglandJet]

Being a Colorado native, and a UF grad, I got to see the Tebow idiocy unfold first hand. I watched headlines from every media outlet shift from reporting on the Gators, to reporting on Tebow his freshman year. I watched as he was credited for leading his team to a National Championship as a freshman, when in reality he was an extremely small part of a Chris Leak led team. I watched over the next three years how he was surrounded by arguably the greatest NCAA team ever assembled, yet he received 100% of the praise. And then I watched him choke against Bama in the SEC Championship game when he had the far better football team.

Next I got to see my Alma Mater represented globally by a naive Christian fundamentalist, during the biggest sporting event in the world, preaching an anti-abortion message funded by the SPLC documented hate group Focus on the Family.

And if that weren't enough of an insult, I got to watch Mike Shannahan get fired and Josh McDaniels get hired, only to gut my offense (Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler), and to bring in Kyle Orton, and waste 3 draft picks on who else, but Tim fucking Tebow.

Next, I watched as Tim Tebow was showered with praise for single-handedly turning around the Broncos season last year by shitting the bed for the first 55 minutes of every game, and being bailed out by our defense, special teams, and idiotic schemes and plays by our opponents.

Finally, in a very bittersweet, but glorious day, I watched as a wasted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick was given away for a single 4th round pick just 2 years later, in what will go down as one of the worst draft decisions in our franchise's history.

Is that enough of a reason?

Plus, fucking with the Tebow cult is fun.


This makes me smile. Im happy Tebow ruined the past 6 years for you and Im excited to see the Broncos shit the bed this year. You must have been one of those loners with no friends if you didn't appreciate the national titles our school won...it was one of the craziest party years of my life and I loved absolutely dominating every team we played.

Either way do you lose sleep every night for being so affected? you mad bro?

[FakeSpike13]

This makes me smile. Im happy Tebow ruined the past 6 years for you and Im excited to see the Broncos shit the bed this year. You must have been one of those loners with no friends if you didn't appreciate the national titles our school won...it was one of the craziest party years of my life and I loved absolutely dominating every team we played.

Either way do you lose sleep every night for being so affected? you mad bro?

Lol...Its just another example of someone merely being critical of Tebow because they don't share his views...

Funny how the only people who bring religion into it are the people who have problems with it....I haven't seen anyone on here talking about how good Tebow is because he's against abortion.

Yet Phaytal thinks its a valid reason to hate on someone...:lol:

[catsigater]

Being a Colorado native, and a UF grad, I got to see the Tebow idiocy unfold first hand. I watched headlines from every media outlet shift from reporting on the Gators, to reporting on Tebow his freshman year. I watched as he was credited for leading his team to a National Championship as a freshman, when in reality he was an extremely small part of a Chris Leak led team.

Next I got to see my Alma Mater represented globally by a naive Christian fundamentalist, during the biggest sporting event in the world, preaching an anti-abortion message funded by the SPLC documented hate group Focus on the Family..

What "reports" were there that Tebow "led his team" to the championship in 2006?

NONE, unless you want to count message boards.

And no, he wasn't an "extremely small part, either." He made a significant contribution.

22/33 passing, 5 TDs and an interception.

89 rushes for 469 yds and 8 TDs.

That isn't an "extremely small part."

Yeah, it's obvious it's personal, and we don't have to wonder what it's about, either.

[FakeSpike13]

What "reports" were there that Tebow "led his team" to the championship in 2006?

NONE, unless you want to count message boards.

And no, he wasn't an "extremely small part, either." He made a significant contribution.

22/33 passing, 5 TDs and an interception.

89 rushes for 469 yds and 8 TDs.

That isn't an "extremely small part."

Yeah, it's obvious it's personal, and we don't have to wonder what it's about, either.

Well said...

I also found it interesting that he had a problem with the SB commercial. I found the content of the commercial pretty harmless. I don't even think the word abortion was mentioned in it.

[cval]

Are any of you guys Jets fans? You criticize a Bronco fan for being on a Jets board yet none of you are.

I see you are all Gator fans typical Gator fans and obnoxious which why nobody likes Gator fans.

Stay off the Jets boards Tebow is just not a good Qb face it. The team he had all this great success with let him go for a fourth round pick. The Jets brought him in as a backup not an heir apparent.

The only way Tebow starts at QB this year is if Sanchez gets hurt and that is not even guaranteed.

Why all the love for an average to below average Qb? Oh he is Gator sorry.

So how did your other Gator hero QB fair in the NFL lets see.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Pretty much Tebow numbers.

Come on Gator fans get over it Tebow will not start for the Jets no matter how many posts or threads you start or how many stats you try to manipulate to make your boy look good.

[catsigater]

Are any of you guys Jets fans? You criticize a Bronco fan for being on a Jets board yet none of you are.

I see you are all Gator fans typical Gator fans and obnoxious which why nobody likes Gator fans.

Stay off the Jets boards Tebow is just not a good Qb face it. The team he had all this great success with let him go for a fourth round pick. The Jets brought him in as a backup not an heir apparent.

The only way Tebow starts at QB this year is if Sanchez gets hurt and that is not even guaranteed.

Why all the love for an average to below average Qb? Oh he is Gator sorry.

So how did your other Gator hero QB fair in the NFL lets see.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Pretty much Tebow numbers.

Come on Gator fans get over it Tebow will not start for the Jets no matter how many posts or threads you start or how many stats you try to manipulate to make your boy look good.
I haven't said Tebow should start over Sanchez.

Ever.

[NewEnglandJet]

I haven't said Tebow should start over Sanchez.

Ever.


I don't think anyone has said that. The thing I enjoy about Tebow are his RUNNING and Big play ability. Im excited to watch him used as a utility player and I would love for the Jets to win!

[Demosthenes9]

No. For that you look at Tebows stats and compare them to QBs with similar situations. The comparison is invalid and illogical no matter what question you are asking, and please don't try to pretend that people weren't bringing it up to show Tebow is on par or better than Sanchez when he's clearly not. I love the kid, but you guys really need to get off your knees and stop this blind cock worship fest. People weren't going crazy comparing Mark Brunell to Mark Sanchez last season. There's no reason people should be doing it this year. The goal is for them both to play well and feed off each other's intensity and work ethic. This blind worship of Tebow (and hence switching teams whenever he moves) is ridiculous and its the reason we had to make a Tebow section on this site when there's never been a section dedicated to a single player before on here. All I'm saying is simmer down. Be patient and give Tebow time to develop before proclaiming him as some amazing QB, when he hasn't done SHIT in the league yet. Lets talk about the Jets winning, not one player who's a backup QB.



Dude, you're being silly. Sure, Mark started right out of college, BUT, he also gained the benefit of being the FIRST TEAM QB during that offseason and the TC. Do you understand how important that is ?

He then started 15 freaking games. Tebow had his rookie TC as well, but guess what ? HE DIDN'T GET STARTING REPS in that offseason or TC. He was with the 2nd and 3rd string guys. Do you understand that difference ?

Tebow had three starts at the end of that season, then there was the labor dispute which seriously shortened the offseason last year.

So, let's go through the differences. Prior to his first start, Sanchez had just about all the first team reps in TC and preseason. He then started 15 games.

Prior to his first start, Tebow had 2nd/3rd string reps in TC and preseason, then sat on the bench as the 2nd/3rd QB for 13 weeks before getting 3 starts at the end of the season AFTER a coaching change.

After another coaching change, AND a labor dispute, Tebow then had a highly shortened TC and preseason, again, as the 2nd/3rd string QB. He then sat for the first 5 weeks before starting.

Tell me, just how much more experience did Tebow gain ? He NEVER went into camp as the 1st string QB. He NEVER got any serious first team reps. You know, where the starting QB actually takes most the snaps ?

We can do this the easy way. How much more did Sanchez get out of OTAs this year than McElroy ? How many more snaps did he take as the starter ? How many fewer snaps did McElroy get ? You want to sit here and try to say that McElroy got anywhere near the experience from OTAs that Sanchez or even Tebow got ??

You're acting like there was some huge difference and disparity in developmental time and experience. Where was it ? Was it when Tebow was throwing to freaking practice squad players last year before being thrown in as the starter ?

Jesus, I mean, if Tebow had started on the 4th game of his rookie year, you'd probably STILL be saying that it's not a valid comparison as Sanchez started a whole 3 weeks earlier than Tebow did.

Additionally, this doesn't even address the fact that Tebow's stats through his first 15 starts compare very favorably to Sanchez's stats from his SECOND YEAR as a starter !

You accuse others of cock worship yet you can't even be objective. It's real simple: Comparing their first 15 starts, Tebow's numbers are comparable to what Sanchez put up in his first 15 starts. And, contrary to your opinion, it's not an unfair comparison as it isn't like Tebow had any extra meaningful experience to speak of.

As I said, outside of both QBs starting on the exact same week of their careers and playing the same schedule, it's as close to a "perfect" comparison that you can make, and it's one that is done all the time with different QBs.

Sure, if a guy sits as the 2nd string QB for 3 or 4 years or more, that would be taken into account, but that's not the situation here.

[Bannon]

Lets talk about the Jets winning, not one player who's a backup QB.

I agree with that, but you must see the contradiction with that philosophy and with of creating a "Tebow forum."

I know it was intended not as a constructive move, but as a dick move to signal that Tebow discussion was somehow lesser or didn't belong, but the unintended consequence of CREATING A SPECIAL FORUM is that you can't really make the "proportionality" argument anymore, i.e. can't really claim that the discussion of Tebow is out of proportion. There are basically two active threads about Tebow right now (why I like him, why I don't), and really it's about 3 or 4 people posting. It's not a big deal.

The real issue is you don't think he's a good player. That's fine. It is impossible to hide in the NFL. If you can't play, that fact presents itself sooner rather than later. And that's part of the fun.

[Demosthenes9]

Are any of you guys Jets fans? You criticize a Bronco fan for being on a Jets board yet none of you are.

I see you are all Gator fans typical Gator fans and obnoxious which why nobody likes Gator fans.

Stay off the Jets boards Tebow is just not a good Qb face it. The team he had all this great success with let him go for a fourth round pick. The Jets brought him in as a backup not an heir apparent.

The only way Tebow starts at QB this year is if Sanchez gets hurt and that is not even guaranteed.

Why all the love for an average to below average Qb? Oh he is Gator sorry.

So how did your other Gator hero QB fair in the NFL lets see.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Pretty much Tebow numbers.

Come on Gator fans get over it Tebow will not start for the Jets no matter how many posts or threads you start or how many stats you try to manipulate to make your boy look good.


Funny thing is that I'm not a Gator fan. I'm a KY Wildcat fan, then a GA Bulldog fan, then an AU Tiger fan, then an LSU fan (in that order).

My family is from KY and that is where I live now, which explains my Wildcat ties. I moved to GA when I was 4 and lived there until I was 17, which explains my GA ties. My brother went to Auburn and I had other friends who's family members went there, which explains my AU ties. As for LSU, have no idea why I like them, other than the whole "ragin cajun" mystique thing.

BTW, I could go ahead and add that I really don't like Steve Spurrier, I thought Shane Matthews was a pussy and never could understand why anyone would have though that Danny Weurffle (?) was a good QB.

[phaytal]

So its personal...got it.

I already suspected it, but at least it is now confirmed that your assessment of Tebow's on the field play isn't very objective and thus should be taken with a grain of salt.

Thanks for your honesty.

Who said anything about hating Tebow, or this being personal? I certainly dont hate the man. We've met in the past, and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think him using his social status and his Alma Mater to push his religious views during the Super Bowl was extremely irresponsible. I also find his affiliation with a hate group disturbing. But thats where it ends. Everything else is about football.

The teams around him at Florida deserved as much or more credit than Tebow was given, and I'm very glad he in not a Bronco anymore. That is about it.

You see, Tebow homers always like to think that it is personal when critics critique Tebow's play, and the decision to trade up to draft him in the first round. The fact remains, Josh McDaniels gutted my team, then wasted 3 very high draft picks on a shit quarterback that is no longer in a Bronco uniform a miniscule 2 years later, and that we got absolutely nothing for in return. As an investment, Tim Tebow was abysmal, and his play was not much better.

So think what you want about how I feel about Tebow on a personal level. I could care less. I have a far, far bigger problem with Josh McDaniels than I do with Tim Tebow. He is the one that set my team back years, Tebow was just the catalyst.

[Demosthenes9]

Who said anything about hating Tebow, or this being personal? I certainly dont hate the man. We've met in the past, and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think him using his social status and his Alma Mater to push his religious views during the Super Bowl was extremely irresponsible. I also find his affiliation with a hate group disturbing. But thats where it ends. Everything else is about football.


Newsflash for you cupcake, Focus on the Family isn't a "hate group", not even according to the ignorant folks over at SPLC. :)



As an investment, Tim Tebow was abysmal, and his play was not much better.

Bwahahahah, that "miserable investment" got the Broncos their first playoff visit AND playoff victory in years.

Dude, you are still a frakking joke.

[FakeSpike13]

Who said anything about hating Tebow, or this being personal? I certainly dont hate the man. We've met in the past, and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think him using his social status and his Alma Mater to push his religious views during the Super Bowl was extremely irresponsible. I also find his affiliation with a hate group disturbing. But thats where it ends. Everything else is about football.

The teams around him at Florida deserved as much or more credit than Tebow was given, and I'm very glad he in not a Bronco anymore. That is about it.

You see, Tebow homers always like to think that it is personal when critics critique Tebow's play, and the decision to trade up to draft him in the first round. The fact remains, Josh McDaniels gutted my team, then wasted 3 very high draft picks on a shit quarterback that is no longer in a Bronco uniform a miniscule 2 years later, and that we got absolutely nothing for in return. As an investment, Tim Tebow was abysmal, and his play was not much better.

So think what you want about how I feel about Tebow on a personal level. I could care less. I have a far, far bigger problem with Josh McDaniels than I do with Tim Tebow. He is the one that set my team back years, Tebow was just the catalyst.

Okay....

Being a Colorado native, and a UF grad, I got to see the Tebow idiocy unfold first hand. I watched headlines from every media outlet shift from reporting on the Gators, to reporting on Tebow his freshman year. I watched as he was credited for leading his team to a National Championship as a freshman, when in reality he was an extremely small part of a Chris Leak led team. I watched over the next three years how he was surrounded by arguably the greatest NCAA team ever assembled, yet he received 100% of the praise. And then I watched him choke against Bama in the SEC Championship game when he had the far better football team.

Next I got to see my Alma Mater represented globally by a naive Christian fundamentalist, during the biggest sporting event in the world, preaching an anti-abortion message funded by the SPLC documented hate group Focus on the Family.

And if that weren't enough of an insult, I got to watch Mike Shannahan get fired and Josh McDaniels get hired, only to gut my offense (Cutler, Marshall, Hillis, Scheffler), and to bring in Kyle Orton, and waste 3 draft picks on who else, but Tim fucking Tebow.

Next, I watched as Tim Tebow was showered with praise for single-handedly turning around the Broncos season last year by shitting the bed for the first 55 minutes of every game, and being bailed out by our defense, special teams, and idiotic schemes and plays by our opponents.

Finally, in a very bittersweet, but glorious day, I watched as a wasted 1st, 2nd, and 3rd round pick was given away for a single 4th round pick just 2 years later, in what will go down as one of the worst draft decisions in our franchise's history.

Is that enough of a reason?

Plus, fucking with the Tebow cult is fun.

^^^This response has "personal" written all over it...Note the highlighted parts, none of which have anything to do with on field performance.

[catsigater]

Who said anything about hating Tebow, or this being personal? I certainly dont hate the man. We've met in the past, and he seems like a nice enough guy. I think him using his social status and his Alma Mater to push his religious views during the Super Bowl was extremely irresponsible. I also find his affiliation with a hate group disturbing. But thats where it ends. Everything else is about football.

The teams around him at Florida deserved as much or more credit than Tebow was given, and I'm very glad he in not a Bronco anymore. That is about it.

You see, Tebow homers always like to think that it is personal when critics critique Tebow's play, and the decision to trade up to draft him in the first round.
Nope. It's obvious it's personal when folks go beyond his play (which offers plenty of reasons to be criticized) and his draft status, (which wasn't his decision, and so is a pretty dumb reason to criticize Tebow), and "critics" start saying stupid stuff like there were "reports" that Tebow led the 2006 team to the Championship...

Or that he "played an extremely small part," in that year's success, when the facts clearly demonstrate he was a significant player...

Or when, for no reason whatsoever relating to his play, "critics" have to wring their hands over a 30 second ad.

So yeah, misrepresenting the facts of his contribution at UF and mixing in attacks of his religious views when criticizing his play are clear indications it's personal and that the "critic" suffers from Tebow Derangement Syndrome.

[phaytal]

Newsflash for you cupcake, Focus on the Family isn't a "hate group", not even according to the ignorant folks over at SPLC. :)

So a far right Christian fundamentalist group that pickets gay weddings is not a hate group. Gotcha.

Bwahahahah, that "miserable investment" got the Broncos their first playoff visit AND playoff victory in years.

Dude, you are still a frakking joke.

Clearly you are not a finance major, as you have no idea what an investment is. I'll make this easy for you:

Lets say you bought a Corvette for $10,000 above sticker price, say $70,000, and kept it in the garage for the first year because you knew it wasn't road worthy. The next summer you take the cover off of it and start driving it around. Sometimes it drives pretty decently, but most of the time its stranded on the side of the highway until AAA can bail it out.

Toward the end of the year, it has one full day where it didn't break down. It ran pretty damn good all day, only to have it explode the very next day.

You, as the owner, are sick of this Vette, so you put it up for sale. The only problem is, only two people are interested in it, and they are only going to offer you $4,000.

That is called a shitty investment.

[Backup QB]

So a far right Christian fundamentalist group that pickets gay weddings is not a hate group. Gotcha.



Clearly you are not a finance major, as you have no idea what an investment is. I'll make this easy for you:

Lets say you bought a Corvette for $10,000 above sticker price, say $70,000, and kept it in the garage for the first year because you knew it wasn't road worthy. The next summer you take the cover off of it and start driving it around. Sometimes it drives pretty decently, but most of the time its stranded on the side of the highway until AAA can bail it out.

Toward the end of the year, it has one full day where it didn't break down. It ran pretty damn good all day, only to have it explode the very next day.

You, as the owner, are sick of this Vette, so you put it up for sale. The only problem is, only two people are interested in it, and they are only going to offer you $4,000.

That is called a shitty investment.

Faulty logic.

Whether something is a bad investment or not depends greatly on when you sell it. A house bought in 2004 and sold in 2005 was probably a good investment. That same house bought in 2004 and sold in 2008 was probably a terrible investment. And like the other poster said, They got an 8-5 record out of him this year and a playoff win against the Steelers, so it was a good investment. They just sold too early.

Additionally, we will never know what Tebow may have done this year in Denver. Denver gave the appearance of Tebow being a bad investment because they wanted to get rid of him to avoid putting ANY pressure on Peyton Manning. Best believe that even Peyton Manning would have been hearing chants of TE-BOW TE-BOW TE-BOW if by chance he or the team played poorly.

[phaytal]

Faulty logic.

Whether something is a bad investment or not depends greatly on when you sell it. A house bought in 2004 and sold in 2005 was probably a good investment. That same house bought in 2004 and sold in 2008 was probably a terrible investment. And like the other poster said, They got an 8-5 record out of him this year and a playoff win against the Steelers, so it was a good investment. They just sold too early.

Additionally, we will never know what Tebow may have done this year in Denver. Denver gave the appearance of Tebow being a bad investment because they wanted to get rid of him to avoid putting ANY pressure on Peyton Manning. Best believe that even Peyton Manning would have been hearing chants of TE-BOW TE-BOW TE-BOW if by chance he or the team played poorly.

Holy fuck you are an idiot.

An investment is not a 'could be' situation. Do you think an investment broker might say: 'well Jim, this stock we bought for well over market value, and sold for 1/10th of what we paid for it, sure was fun!!' and be happy about it??

There is nothing relative about an investment. It was either good, stagnent, or bad. There is not a gray area when it comes to selling a stock two years after you bought it for 1/10th its buy price. That is called a shitty investment, period.

McDaniels overpaid for Tebow, in the form of three very high draft picks, and 2 years later, he was worth a fourth to an insanely small market.

That is pretty much the definition of a shitty investment.

I'll tell you what; You buy a house, have a few mediocre parties in it, and then sell it to me for 1/10th what you paid for it two years later, and tell me it was a good investment.

Deal?

[Demosthenes9]

So a far right Christian fundamentalist group that pickets gay weddings is not a hate group. Gotcha.

Got a link for that ?????



Clearly you are not a finance major, as you have no idea what an investment is. I'll make this easy for you:

Lets say you bought a Corvette for $10,000 above sticker price, say $70,000, and kept it in the garage for the first year because you knew it wasn't road worthy. The next summer you take the cover off of it and start driving it around. Sometimes it drives pretty decently, but most of the time its stranded on the side of the highway until AAA can bail it out.

Toward the end of the year, it has one full day where it didn't break down. It ran pretty damn good all day, only to have it explode the very next day.

You, as the owner, are sick of this Vette, so you put it up for sale. The only problem is, only two people are interested in it, and they are only going to offer you $4,000.

That is called a shitty investment.


You're right, I wasn't a Finance Major, my BS is in Business Administration. With that out of the way, all you have shown is that you have no fucking clue about football.

Why do teams even bother drafting players ? It's to try and get better, make it to the playoffs and win a freaking Championship. THAT is what players are drafted for and what they are paid for. Some players aren't "NFL ready" and are seen as developmental projects. Ie. they have a ton of upside and it's worth it to sign them and develop them based on their future potential.

Let's see, Denver was 3-13 two seasons ago and they started last season at 1-4. Orton gets benched and Tebow takes over as the starter. Lo and behold, the Broncos reach the playoffs and actually win a game. Guess what cupcake ? That's reaching one of the goals that players are drafted for.

You want to talk about picks ? Especially, first rounders ? Tell me how DJ Williams got the Broncos to the playoffs and beat the Steelers. Or Knowshown Moreno. Or Jarvis Moss (didn't the Broncos just flat out release him ? ) Or George Foster ? Or Ashley Lelie ? Or Willie Middlebrooks ? Or Deltha O'Neal ?

That's only going back to the 2000 draft. Looking at that list, the Tebow pick was by far better than ANY ONE of those and the team got quite a bit for their investment in him.

This doesn't even get into the question of whether or not Peyton Freaking Manning would have even looked at Denver if Tebow hadn't taken them to the playoffs, but instead, if Orton had pissed away yet another season.

[Demosthenes9]

Holy fuck you are an idiot.

An investment is not a 'could be' situation. Do you think an investment broker might say: 'well Jim, this stock we bought for well over market value, and sold for 1/10th of what we paid for it, sure was fun!!' and be happy about it??

There is nothing relative about an investment. It was either good, stagnent, or bad. There is not a gray area when it comes to selling a stock two years after you bought it for 1/10th its buy price. That is called a shitty investment, period.

McDaniels overpaid for Tebow, in the form of three very high draft picks, and 2 years later, he was worth a fourth to an insanely small market.

That is pretty much the definition of a shitty investment.

I'll tell you what; You buy a house, have a few mediocre parties in it, and then sell it to me for 1/10th what you paid for it two years later, and tell me it was a good investment.

Deal?

Actually, you're showing just how much of a freaking idiot you are. It's often the case that if you sell at the wrong time, that is what makes an investment "bad".

Hell, you could have bought gold on the 1st of Feb this past year for $1740 and sold it on the 11th of Feb after the price dropped to $1710. That would have been a loss of $30 per ounce. BUT, if, instead of selling, you held on to it until the 27th of Feb, you could have sold it at $1780 per ounce, which would have realized a $40 profit per ounce, and a total swing of $70 per ounce.

Once again, the more you talk, the more you demonstrate just how much of a frakking idiot you are.

[Backup QB]

Holy fuck you are an idiot.

An investment is not a 'could be' situation. Do you think an investment broker might say: 'well Jim, this stock we bought for well over market value, and sold for 1/10th of what we paid for it, sure was fun!!' and be happy about it??

There is nothing relative about an investment. It was either good, stagnent, or bad. There is not a gray area when it comes to selling a stock two years after you bought it for 1/10th its buy price. That is called a shitty investment, period.

McDaniels overpaid for Tebow, in the form of three very high draft picks, and 2 years later, he was worth a fourth to an insanely small market.

That is pretty much the definition of a shitty investment.

I'll tell you what; You buy a house, have a few mediocre parties in it, and then sell it to me for 1/10th what you paid for it two years later, and tell me it was a good investment.

Deal?

What you are saying makes no sense. I won't call you an idiot, since we are not face-to-face, but you clearly are not wise to investing and how one makes money off of investments. I was not a finance major either, but I do have an MBA.

If you sell before giving the asset a chance to appreciate in value, it will be viewed as a bad investment. If you wait until it gains value before selling - good investment. Obviously, the Broncos couldn't wait 20 years for Tebow to develop into Steve Young, but after the success during his first year starting they really had something going with Tebow. No telling what would have happened this year.

BTW, if the Packers got rid of Aaron Rodgers after his second year, he would have been a bad investment.

[sg3]

one thing is very clear based on all of your posts, trailer trash..

YOUR DEGREE CLEARLY WAS A BS

[cval]

No. For that you look at Tebows stats and compare them to QBs with similar situations. The comparison is invalid and illogical no matter what question you are asking, and please don't try to pretend that people weren't bringing it up to show Tebow is on par or better than Sanchez when he's clearly not. I love the kid, but you guys really need to get off your knees and stop this blind cock worship fest. People weren't going crazy comparing Mark Brunell to Mark Sanchez last season. There's no reason people should be doing it this year. The goal is for them both to play well and feed off each other's intensity and work ethic. This blind worship of Tebow (and hence switching teams whenever he moves) is ridiculous and its the reason we had to make a Tebow section on this site when there's never been a section dedicated to a single player before on here. All I'm saying is simmer down. Be patient and give Tebow time to develop before proclaiming him as some amazing QB, when he hasn't done SHIT in the league yet. Lets talk about the Jets winning, not one player who's a backup QB.


But Barcs you are Jets fan they are just Tebow lovers they could give a shit about the Jets.

[cval]

Guys Trent Dilfer won a superbowl does that make him a great Qb? Tebow won a playoff game yes he did kudos but Sanchez has won four on the road what is your point?

Sanchez was not great in season One or Two but he won going 9-7 and 11-5 pretty good. That does not make the criticism of him less valid.

People are criticizing Sanchez for having Compl % of 56% Tebow had a 46% completion percentage. You cannot play QB in the NFL with compl % of 46%.

I heard someone argue he just needs to throw more really? Then his compl % would have been worse.

Denver did not want Tebow for one reason he did prove that he can play in a traditional offense meaning he cannot throw from the pocket . Not only did he show he could not but showed very little improvement in doing so.

The wildcat worked for a little while because it was new to coordinators Tebow is not new anymore and his style of offense he had to play in Denver is just not sustainable.

You do realize they had to change the entire offense for Tebow in the middle of the season dont you?

[Backup QB]

one thing is very clear based on all of your posts, trailer trash..

YOUR DEGREE CLEARLY WAS A BS

Name calling? Really? How old are you?

BTW, I am black and from the suburbs... not typically what most would describe as "trailer trash", though I think that is a despicable term. Let's see... I'm also an Army officer, veteran, atheist... and I like to take long walks on the beach.

My degrees are from University of Florida. Thanks for asking.

Anyways, back on topic... without the personal attacks. :beer:

[Barcs]

I agree with that, but you must see the contradiction with that philosophy and with of creating a "Tebow forum."

I know it was intended not as a constructive move, but as a dick move to signal that Tebow discussion was somehow lesser or didn't belong, but the unintended consequence of CREATING A SPECIAL FORUM is that you can't really make the "proportionality" argument anymore, i.e. can't really claim that the discussion of Tebow is out of proportion. There are basically two active threads about Tebow right now (why I like him, why I don't), and really it's about 3 or 4 people posting. It's not a big deal.

The real issue is you don't think he's a good player. That's fine. It is impossible to hide in the NFL. If you can't play, that fact presents itself sooner rather than later. And that's part of the fun.

The reason the Tebow section was created was because as soon as ya'll came, you started flooding the Jets section with nothing but Tebow. Every single thread was Tebow and it was annoying having to sift through all of that to actually find a meaningful article on the Jets. I wouldn't mind if they were put together, but it would only work if the Tebow people would calm down a bit and be objective about things. When threads like this and the others take up the majority of space there with people posting deceptive stats to argue their case, it ruins it for everyone.

[Barcs]

Dude, you're being silly. Sure, Mark started right out of college, BUT, he also gained the benefit of being the FIRST TEAM QB during that offseason and the TC. Do you understand how important that is ?
Do you understand how important college experience is? I know first team reps are better than 2nd team, but it's not like the guy doesn't develop over time. C'mon man. Aaron Rodgers had the same issue, but he excelled as soon as he started. Experience comes with time, whether you start right away or not. Both QBs have lack of experience at certain points in their careers.

Tell me, just how much more experience did Tebow gain ? He NEVER went into camp as the 1st string QB. He NEVER got any serious first team reps. You know, where the starting QB actually takes most the snaps ? More evidence of why the comparison is invalid. They aren't even close to the same situations.

Jesus, I mean, if Tebow had started on the 4th game of his rookie year, you'd probably STILL be saying that it's not a valid comparison as Sanchez started a whole 3 weeks earlier than Tebow did.
In that case, the comparison would be a little bit more valid, but again the situations are completely different as you have outlined in this post. It's too early to compare careers or starts or whatever else. A QB is only as good as his most recent starts. It would be much more valid to compare the QBs last seasons, but again, I think comparing the 2 like this is pointless. You are grasping for straws here trying to prove that Tebow is on even playing field with Mark, when he's clearly not.

Additionally, this doesn't even address the fact that Tebow's stats through his first 15 starts compare very favorably to Sanchez's stats from his SECOND YEAR as a starter !
Does it address the 3rd year when Mark had 32 touchdowns, the 5th most in the league? Do you honestly think Tebow would have 32 TDs if he started this year?

You accuse others of cock worship yet you can't even be objective. It's real simple: Comparing their first 15 starts, Tebow's numbers are comparable to what Sanchez put up in his first 15 starts. And, contrary to your opinion, it's not an unfair comparison as it isn't like Tebow had any extra meaningful experience to speak of.
They aren't the same situations, they aren't fully developed. You can't compare the stats. Tebow is backup QB for a very good reason. How am I not being objective? I'm not saying Sanchez is going to have a better career than Tebow, although he has at this point in time. I'm not saying Sanchez is the best QB to ever play or blindly support him. I'm just saying the comparison is stupid and pointless and only shows desperation and cherry picking of stats from certain times. It's basically just a pitiful attempt to start fights with Jets fans and try to justify Tebow starting. You will probably be one of the clowns that chants his name the second Sanchez throws his first pick. All I'm saying is slow your role.

As I said, outside of both QBs starting on the exact same week of their careers and playing the same schedule, it's as close to a "perfect" comparison that you can make, and it's one that is done all the time with different QBs.
You must be new to football because that's the most illogical thing I've ever heard. You are wrong. Your comparison is apples to oranges and cherry picked specifically to force your point. The stats were manipulated as well in every comparison I've seen. Please post those stats again and I'll show you specifically where.

[TTTTebowAndTheJets]

The reason the Tebow section was created was because as soon as ya'll came, you started flooding the Jets section with nothing but Tebow. Every single thread was Tebow and it was annoying having to sift through all of that to actually find a meaningful article on the Jets. I wouldn't mind if they were put together, but it would only work if the Tebow people would calm down a bit and be objective about things. When threads like this and the others take up the majority of space there with people posting deceptive stats to argue their case, it ruins it for everyone.

Yeh, cause the Tebowmania subforum is just buzzing with 100s of new threads that are constantly being updated by the horde of teboi that are just taking over this board...... right......

[FakeSpike13]

Holy fuck you are an idiot.

An investment is not a 'could be' situation. Do you think an investment broker might say: 'well Jim, this stock we bought for well over market value, and sold for 1/10th of what we paid for it, sure was fun!!' and be happy about it??

There is nothing relative about an investment. It was either good, stagnent, or bad. There is not a gray area when it comes to selling a stock two years after you bought it for 1/10th its buy price. That is called a shitty investment, period.

McDaniels overpaid for Tebow, in the form of three very high draft picks, and 2 years later, he was worth a fourth to an insanely small market.

That is pretty much the definition of a shitty investment.

I'll tell you what; You buy a house, have a few mediocre parties in it, and then sell it to me for 1/10th what you paid for it two years later, and tell me it was a good investment.

Deal?

You're ignoring everything you got from the investment while you had it though...

By your logic, Peyton Manning was a bad investment for the Colts because they spent a #1 pick on him and he later walked for nothing....:manning:

[Barcs]

Yeh, cause the Tebowmania subforum is just buzzing with 100s of new threads that are constantly being updated by the horde of teboi that are just taking over this board...... right......

15 threads in the past month and change alone based on one player that says almost the same stuff in each one. We didn't have a Mark Brunell section last year for a reason. We don't even have close to that many threads about Mark Sanchez, our starting QB, despite all the darksiders and haters.. or even Revis, one of the best CBs of all time. This silly statistical first 15 starts thing has been brought up in quite a lot of them. This is why there is a Tebow section.

[Backup QB]

15 threads in the past month and change alone based on one player that says almost the same stuff in each one. We didn't have a Mark Brunell section last year for a reason. We don't even have close to that many threads about Mark Sanchez, our starting QB, despite all the darksiders and haters.. or even Revis, one of the best CBs of all time. This silly statistical first 15 starts thing has been brought up in quite a lot of them. This is why there is a Tebow section.

You realize that there more Tebow detractors in this forum than Tebow supporters, right?

We couldn't even have a discussion about Tebow on here that is positive without people and whining and complaining.

Let someone start a thread titled, "I Think Tebow is a Decent QB"... not great, not elite, but "decent". Tebow Haters will be all in the thread going crazy, having heart attacks, strokes... Some of them will have to be hospitalized because the thread title will upset them so much.

[Demosthenes9]

Do you understand how important college experience is? I know first team reps are better than 2nd team, but it's not like the guy doesn't develop over time. C'mon man. Aaron Rodgers had the same issue, but he excelled as soon as he started. Experience comes with time, whether you start right away or not. Both QBs have lack of experience at certain points in their careers.

Actually, there's kind of a grey area here, and it applies to most young QBs, not just Tebow. I would certainly agree that spending 2-3 years on the bench as a backup can be invaluable. BUT, it really depends on what is being done to develop the QB in that situation. You know, like actually being groomed to become the starter a;a Aaron Rodgers.

That said, there are other situations that aren't as ideal. If I were a QB coming out of college, I'd much prefer to go into camp as the starter and get all the 1st team reps, as opposed to getting 3rd team reps in TC, sitting on the bench for 13 weeks, and then being thrown in as the starter for the last 3 games.


More evidence of why the comparison is invalid. They aren't even close to the same situations.

You're right about one thing, they weren't even close to the same situations. Sanchez's situation was MUCH BETTER, yet Tebow put up similar stats.


In that case, the comparison would be a little bit more valid, but again the situations are completely different as you have outlined in this post. It's too early to compare careers or starts or whatever else. A QB is only as good as his most recent starts. It would be much more valid to compare the QBs last seasons, but again, I think comparing the 2 like this is pointless. You are grasping for straws here trying to prove that Tebow is on even playing field with Mark, when he's clearly not.




Does it address the 3rd year when Mark had 32 touchdowns, the 5th most in the league? Do you honestly think Tebow would have 32 TDs if he started this year?


It doesn't address Mark's 32 TDs this year. As for Tebow, as he has only had 15 starts, I'd compare his upcoming year (if he was a starter) to Sanchez's 2nd year, not his third.


They aren't the same situations, they aren't fully developed. You can't compare the stats. Tebow is backup QB for a very good reason. How am I not being objective? I'm not saying Sanchez is going to have a better career than Tebow, although he has at this point in time. I'm not saying Sanchez is the best QB to ever play or blindly support him. I'm just saying the comparison is stupid and pointless and only shows desperation and cherry picking of stats from certain times. It's basically just a pitiful attempt to start fights with Jets fans and try to justify Tebow starting. You will probably be one of the clowns that chants his name the second Sanchez throws his first pick. All I'm saying is slow your role.



You're not being objective because you continue to call the comparison invalid even though it's one that most knowledgeable football fans make all the damned time.


You must be new to football because that's the most illogical thing I've ever heard. You are wrong. Your comparison is apples to oranges and cherry picked specifically to force your point. The stats were manipulated as well in every comparison I've seen. Please post those stats again and I'll show you specifically where.

I've followed "football" itself for the past 35 years, though most of that time has been spent as a devout follower of college ball. That said, I understand the game.


As I said above, this kind of comparison is made all he time to try and "benchmark" QBs and other players. Take a WR for instance. You wouldn't compare the stats of a guy's 3rd year to those of a rookie or even a guy who sat for most of his first season, and finally started in his second year.

For example, take a guy like Demaryius Thomas of Denver. He was a rookie in 2010 but he was injured and only played sparingly. Last year, he was injured in the preseason and didn't play until he 6th game of the season. In short, he was basically a rookie last year in terms of actual experience. When looking at what he did this past season, you'd compare his accomplishments to those of other receivers in their first X number of games as well. What you wouldn't do is try to compare his stats to Calvin Johnson's stats from last year. It would be much more appropriate to compare DTs stats from his first 7 starts over the past 2 years, to Johnson's first 7 starts in Detroit. Sure, you'd "shade" the stats a bit to account for DT being a bit older and hopefully, a bit more mature. But you'd still try to get as close as you can to comparing stats based on experience level.

It's the same as when you look at Mark Sanchez and try to compare him to Tom Brady. You don't compare what Brady did last year to what Sanchez did. Rather, you compare what Sanchez did in his first X number of games as a starter to what Brady did in a similar number of games.

And yes, you'd factor in some small benefit for Brady as he had a year on the bench that Sanchez didn't have, but the approximation would be close.

Again, it's basic benchmarking.

[flajetfan]

Faulty logic.

Whether something is a bad investment or not depends greatly on when you sell it. A house bought in 2004 and sold in 2005 was probably a good investment. That same house bought in 2004 and sold in 2008 was probably a terrible investment. And like the other poster said, They got an 8-5 record out of him this year and a playoff win against the Steelers, so it was a good investment. They just sold too early.

Additionally, we will never know what Tebow may have done this year in Denver. Denver gave the appearance of Tebow being a bad investment because they wanted to get rid of him to avoid putting ANY pressure on Peyton Manning. Best believe that even Peyton Manning would have been hearing chants of TE-BOW TE-BOW TE-BOW if by chance he or the team played poorly.

i am so glad you said this.
i have been saying all along that his cult is as much of a problem as his play.tebow is going to fall victim to his own celebrity.

[Bannon]

i am so glad you said this.
i have been saying all along that his cult is as much of a problem as his play.tebow is going to fall victim to his own celebrity.

But it seems like the people chanting would be season ticket holders at Denver. I don't think the "cult" or the "circus" is supposed to be people that have season tickets to the ballgames.

[flajetfan]

But it seems like the people chanting would be season ticket holders at Denver. I don't think the "cult" or the "circus" is supposed to be people that have season tickets to the ballgames.

then why did elway have him shipped out before the ink was dry on mannings contract?why wouldnt they keep him to learn behind manning?
is it because elway,a h.o.f. qb, doesn't think he is talented enough to play qb?
or is it the cult following is too much of a distratction for most teams to deal with?
unless you can give me another reason to give up on a 1st rd pick that quickly

[Demosthenes9]

then why did elway have him shipped out before the ink was dry on mannings contract?why wouldnt they keep him to learn behind manning?
is it because elway,a h.o.f. qb, doesn't think he is talented enough to play qb?
or is it the cult following is too much of a distratction for most teams to deal with?
unless you can give me another reason to give up on a 1st rd pick that quickly

Perhaps it was the same reason that the Giants let Kurt Warner go when they handed Eli the keys. It's just a clean start.

Might also be the same logic that led Denver to releasing Orton after he got replaced. I mean, there was a possibility that Tebow could have gotten hurt, and the team would have needed a good backup QB, yet they released Orton.

In the real world, it's often the case that when someone is replaced in a management/leadership position, they quickly find themselves removed from the company completely, as opposed to just being moved down a notch.

[cval]

Perhaps it was the same reason that the Giants let Kurt Warner go when they handed Eli the keys. It's just a clean start.

This is the analogy you use? Warner was on a one year contract and played that entire season he know the deal when he signed.

A better analogy would have been Leftwich or Garrard in Jacksonville but even then trading away your young prospect QB is never done for a 36 year QB if you thought he could develop.

Might also be the same logic that led Denver to releasing Orton after he got replaced. I mean, there was a possibility that Tebow could have gotten hurt, and the team would have needed a good backup QB, yet they released Orton.

It is not the same logic they were trying to dump Orton from day one. Teams do not Dump 2nd year first round draft picks if they thought they can develop.

A closer example would be the Jets dumping Kellen Clemens when they brought in Favre. He had some success and failures as a starting QB but the problem was they did not dumb him and he sucked.

In the real world, it's often the case that when someone is replaced in a management/leadership position, they quickly find themselves removed from the company completely, as opposed to just being moved down a notch.

This is not the real world do you think the Jets would have dumped Sanchez if they brought in Manning?

[NewEnglandJet]

This is not the real world do you think the Jets would have dumped Sanchez if they brought in Manning?

I think they would have shopped him around before keeping him as a backup. Chances are Sanchez would have asked for a trade.

[metsnjets]

Faulty logic.

Whether something is a bad investment or not depends greatly on when you sell it. A house bought in 2004 and sold in 2005 was probably a good investment. That same house bought in 2004 and sold in 2008 was probably a terrible investment. And like the other poster said, They got an 8-5 record out of him this year and a playoff win against the Steelers, so it was a good investment. They just sold too early.

Additionally, we will never know what Tebow may have done this year in Denver. Denver gave the appearance of Tebow being a bad investment because they wanted to get rid of him to avoid putting ANY pressure on Peyton Manning. Best believe that even Peyton Manning would have been hearing chants of TE-BOW TE-BOW TE-BOW if by chance he or the team played poorly.

There are some stupid things said every now and again. This is one of them.

[Demosthenes9]

This is not the real world do you think the Jets would have dumped Sanchez if they brought in Manning?

I think they would have shopped him around before keeping him as a backup. Chances are Sanchez would have asked for a trade.

Agreed. This isn't a situation where you are bringing in a gunslinger for 1 year in the hopes of an immediate run to a SB title. Denver fully expects Manning to be their starting QB for 3+ years.

If the Jets had signed Manning, they most definitely would have dealt Sanchez.

[cval]

Agreed. This isn't a situation where you are bringing in a gunslinger for 1 year in the hopes of an immediate run to a SB title. Denver fully expects Manning to be their starting QB for 3+ years.

If the Jets had signed Manning, they most definitely would have dealt Sanchez.

No all the talk was they were going to keep him to let him learn behind manning but most likely would have walked when his contract expired

[Demosthenes9]

No all the talk was they were going to keep him to let him learn behind manning but most likely would have walked when his contract expired

You talking about Tebow ? There was tons of "talk", all by people who weren't the ones making the decisions. When it came out that Denver was pursuing Manning, there was also immediate "talk" that Tebow would definitely be traded.

[metsnjets]

You talking about Tebow ? There was tons of "talk", all by people who weren't the ones making the decisions. When it came out that Denver was pursuing Manning, there was also immediate "talk" that Tebow would definitely be traded.

yeah it was pretty well known Tebow was out as soon as Manning chose Denver.

[Demosthenes9]

yeah it was pretty well known Tebow was out as soon as Manning chose Denver.

Again, "known" by whom ? There was speculation on all sides of the issue. Many came out and said that it would be great for Tebow to learn behind Manning, that if anyone could take the demotion in stride, it would be Tebow.

Others talked about the "circus" and the need to trade Tebow away. Yet others speculated about divided loyalties in the locker room, yada, yada, yada.

[Backup QB]

There are some stupid things said every now and again. This is one of them.

What I said is common knowledge to all.

[metsnjets]

What I said is common knowledge to all.

Maybe a Tebow fetishist..otherwise those of us that live in the real world know Tebow will never ever never ever put pressure on Peyton Manning.

[metsnjets]

Again, "known" by whom ? There was speculation on all sides of the issue. Many came out and said that it would be great for Tebow to learn behind Manning, that if anyone could take the demotion in stride, it would be Tebow.

Others talked about the "circus" and the need to trade Tebow away. Yet others speculated about divided loyalties in the locker room, yada, yada, yada.

Ummm'' i live near denver the radio stations / local writers / TV sports guys and fans all started saying that Tebow would be gone as soon as Manning signed. You know darn well Elway didn't want tebow and probably couldnt wait to get rid of the kid. Heck I think he was gone anyway.

[Backup QB]

Maybe a Tebow fetishist..otherwise those of us that live in the real world know Tebow will never ever never ever put pressure on Peyton Manning.

You are living in a fantasy world. It's not that Tebow is better than Manning, he just has a stronger fan base. The pressure that Tebow's fan base applies is not something the Denver front office, coaching staff, or Peyton Manning wanted anything to do with.

[Demosthenes9]

Ummm'' i live near denver the radio stations / local writers / TV sports guys and fans all started saying that Tebow would be gone as soon as Manning signed. You know darn well Elway didn't want tebow and probably couldnt wait to get rid of the kid. Heck I think he was gone anyway.

They didn't ALL start saying it. As I said, rumors and speculation was across the spectrum. As for Elway. there were plenty of opinions about that as well.

[sg3]

You are living in a fantasy world. It's not that Tebow is better than Manning, he just has a stronger fan base. The pressure that Tebow's fan base applies is not something the Denver front office, coaching staff, or Peyton Manning wanted anything to do with.

Maybe true for Denver or some other craphole like Kentucky filled to the brim with brainwashed evangelical tom cruise like nutjobs like Demosthenes9.

Fortunately not the case in NY

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

[Demosthenes9]

Maybe true for Denver or some other craphole like Kentucky filled to the brim with brainwashed evangelical tom cruise like nutjobs like Demosthenes9.

Fortunately not the case in NY

Sent from my SGH-T679 using Tapatalk 2

Evangelical ?

That's pretty funny there cupcake.

BTW< nice Tutu. It fits your girly man personality quite well.

[metsnjets]

You are living in a fantasy world. It's not that Tebow is better than Manning, he just has a stronger fan base. The pressure that Tebow's fan base applies is not something the Denver front office, coaching staff, or Peyton Manning wanted anything to do with.

If you say so. But didn't Peyton's jersey become the #1 selling Jersey when he signed? And didn't he surpass your beloved Punt Protecting Half Back?

[metsnjets]

They didn't ALL start saying it. As I said, rumors and speculation was across the spectrum. As for Elway. there were plenty of opinions about that as well.

Ok not everyone but anyone that was remotely connected to the broncos was sayin Tebow was gone. Ex-Players especially where all over the radio. Rod Smith, Bill Romanowski, Al Williams, etc... to man said they couldnt see Elway holding on to Tebow if Manning signed.

[Demosthenes9]

Ok not everyone but anyone that was remotely connected to the broncos was sayin Tebow was gone. Ex-Players especially where all over the radio. Rod Smith, Bill Romanowski, Al Williams, etc... to man said they couldnt see Elway holding on to Tebow if Manning signed.

Again, that was different people offering their opinions. yes, many said that he would be gone. Others thought that he could stay and be the backup. In the end, both camps were offering their opinions, but that's really moot as the decision was up to Elway.

[Barcs]

We're just going to go back and forth on this forever so I'll be quick and to the point here.


It doesn't address Mark's 32 TDs this year. As for Tebow, as he has only had 15 starts, I'd compare his upcoming year (if he was a starter) to Sanchez's 2nd year, not his third. Yes I was talking about Tebow's 3rd year, this coming year.

You're not being objective because you continue to call the comparison invalid even though it's one that most knowledgeable football fans make all the damned time.
I've never seen a comparison made like that before, with 2 QBs who haven't been in the league more than 3 years. When you make comparisons, you compare similar situations. For example, comparing Mark Sanchez to Eli Manning is one of the best ones out there. Mark Sanchez had nearly identical stats to Eli in his first 3 seasons in the NFL. The comparison is valid because they both started straight out of college, played for teams with a heavy rushing attack and a strong defense. You can look at both careers and deduce that Sanchez could possibly reach Eli's level some day. That would be a valid comparison although it certainly doesn't mean he definitely will. Their careers started out almost the same exact way. Eli won his first superbowl in his 4th season, btw and now I consider him elite or close to it.

I've followed "football" itself for the past 35 years, though most of that time has been spent as a devout follower of college ball. That said, I understand the game.
Fair enough, I misjudged you then.

Tebow & Sanchez simply don't have enough in common to compare them, and not enough time in the league because they haven't fully developed.

[Demosthenes9]

We're just going to go back and forth on this forever so I'll be quick and to the point here.

Yes I was talking about Tebow's 3rd year, this coming year.


I've never seen a comparison made like that before, with 2 QBs who haven't been in the league more than 3 years. When you make comparisons, you compare similar situations. For example, comparing Mark Sanchez to Eli Manning is one of the best ones out there. Mark Sanchez had nearly identical stats to Eli in his first 3 seasons in the NFL. The comparison is valid because they both started straight out of college, played for teams with a heavy rushing attack and a strong defense. You can look at both careers and deduce that Sanchez could possibly reach Eli's level some day. That would be a valid comparison although it certainly doesn't mean he definitely will. Their careers started out almost the same exact way. Eli won his first superbowl in his 4th season, btw and now I consider him elite or close to it.


My friend, if you "haven't seen a comparison like that", then I'd have to submit that you haven't read too many threads on too many team boards. Comparisons like this are done just about every single day and people try to "factor in" things like the type of offensive system, or how bad so and so's Oline is, or what weapons they are surrounded with, or how bad a guy's OC was and how he was inhibited because of it.

Scenario and question for you. Say that Sanchez and Tebow get in a horrible wreck out at Jet's West, and McElroy starts every single game this year. When people start evaluating him, will they compare his performance to other 2nd year starters ? Say, like Cam Newton, or perhaps Sanchez's or Eli's 2nd year as a starter ?

OR, given that he hasn't started a single game to date in the NFL, would he be compared to other "first year" QBs ? Like Sanchez or Eli's first year ?

Do you honestly think he would be expected to put up the same kind of numbers in his first 16 starts (after 1 year as 3rd string QB), as Sanchez and Eli put up in their 16th - 30t starts ?

Of course not.


Oh, and BTW, Sanchez and Eli didn't both "start straight out of college". Eli sat behind Kurt Warner and didn't start until the 10th week of the season.

Therefore, by your logic, it would be unfair and invalid to compare the two as Eli had the benefit of sitting a whole 10 weeks and learning, while Sanchez was thrown into the starting role right from the get go.




Fair enough, I misjudged you then.

Thanks :)



Tebow & Sanchez simply don't have enough in common to compare them, and not enough time in the league because they haven't fully developed.

Really ? The Jets were ground and pound for Sanchez's first 2 seasons. Funny thing, as much as people talk about Denver only being a running team, the run/pass split in Tebow's starts was 61.75% run, 38.25% pass. In Sanchez's first year, the Jet's run/pass split was 60.70% run, 39.30% pass. That's a difference of a whopping 1.05% if my math is correct.

[cval]

You don't compare rookies as first time starters because there is a learning curve. Just as you dont compare a freshman QB to Senior QB even though they maybe first time starters.

It takes time to adjust to the NFL the speed but most importantly time to work the playbook learn the reads where to go with the ball how to study film. Things rookie QBs get to do even when they are not starting. So Yes Mccelroy should be compared to second year starters not rookies because he is not a rookie.

There have been a lot of QBs with Tebows numbers. You say Blaine Gabbert sucks and he very well may (To early yo tell) yet he threw for a higher completion percentage than Tebow did. He also demonstrated as you say on occasion he can throw from the pocket. By my criteria Gabbert has not shown he can throw from the pocket as Tebow has not either. The difference is nobody is praising how good Gabbert is he has to prove it on the field first.

[Backup QB]

There have been a lot of QBs with Tebows numbers. You say Blaine Gabbert sucks and he very well may (To early yo tell) yet he threw for a higher completion percentage than Tebow did.

2011 Stats:

Blaine Gabbert threw 12 TDs to 11 INTs with 5 fumbles lost in 15 starts for a 65.4 passer rating (2,214 yards). He rushed for 98 yards and 0 TDs.

Tim Tebow threw 12 TDs to 6 INTs with 7 fumbles lost in 13 starts for a 72.9 passer rating (1,729 yards). He rushed for 660 yards and 6 touchdowns.

So yes, Blaine Gabbert had a marginally higher completion percentage, but total yards, TDs, turnovers, and passer rating... Tebow wins out pretty easily.

[Demosthenes9]

You don't compare rookies as first time starters because there is a learning curve. Just as you dont compare a freshman QB to Senior QB even though they maybe first time starters.

It takes time to adjust to the NFL the speed but most importantly time to work the playbook learn the reads where to go with the ball how to study film. Things rookie QBs get to do even when they are not starting. So Yes Mccelroy should be compared to second year starters not rookies because he is not a rookie.

So just by virtue of having been in the league for a year, as a third string QB, you'd expect McElroy to put up numbers comparable to another QB who already has 16 starts under their belt ?

That is absolutely asinine. There's more to learning about being a QB in the NFL than reading a freaking playbook or breaking down film. On the field experience does actually matter in most cases. Actually taking game day reps and seeing defenses up close and personal comes into play.

[Backup QB]

So just by virtue of having been in the league for a year, as a third string QB, you'd expect McElroy to put up numbers comparable to another QB who already has 16 starts under their belt ?

That is absolutely asinine. There's more to learning about being a QB in the NFL than reading a freaking playbook or breaking down film. On the field experience does actually matter in most cases. Actually taking game day reps and seeing defenses up close and personal comes into play.

You would think this is an easy concept for people to grasp...

You and I disagree on whether Sanchez is the better QB now - I think Tebow gives the Jets a better chance to win right now, but on pretty much every other point including this one, I agree with you completely.

[Demosthenes9]

You would think this is an easy concept for people to grasp...

You and I disagree on whether Sanchez is the better QB now - I think Tebow gives the Jets a better chance to win right now, but on pretty much every other point including this one, I agree with you completely.

yeah, some people just can't wrap their heads around it. I guess they think that the third string QB gets the same number of first team reps in TC and preseason. That they spend the same amount of time with the coaches going over things. Game planning, dissecting defenses, yada, yada, yada.

On top of that, watching from the sidelines apparently provides just as much experience as actually stepping onto the field as the starter.

[Backup QB]

yeah, some people just can't wrap their heads around it. I guess they think that the third string QB gets the same number of first team reps in TC and preseason. That they spend the same amount of time with the coaches going over things. Game planning, dissecting defenses, yada, yada, yada.

On top of that, watching from the sidelines apparently provides just as much experience as actually stepping onto the field as the starter.

The irony is that the guy that they say has no ability and is not even an NFL QB is held to a higher standard than HOF QBs as far as how long it will take him to get comfortable in an offense and pass better. It makes no sense to me that someone with his history of prolific PASSING can be viewed as a poor passer based off of a ridiculous offense installed by John Fox, a marginal *at best* receiving corps, and very little OTA time.

But of course, I am making excuses now because apparently I am an evangelical cultist, Bible thumping, Tebow-lover. No dude, actually I just went to UF and saw what Tebow can do.