Cavanaugh is pointing finger at Sanchez.

[Zach]

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To me, he is public enemy #2 after Schottenheimer. And he comes from the same shit school Brian is from (Some variant of Coryell offense, last time I checked.)

1. I have to wonder why Jets didn't get a QB coach that was well versed in E/P system (which will be the choice of offense from Sparano.) It's not like capable coaches weren't available either. Dan Henning (I don't know if HE wants to get employed or not) is still available for instance.

2. So Sanchez still makes bad decisions, eh? Good job - now he's throwing the QB under the bus - and this was unforced bullshit, remember. Why he had to come out with this bullshit, I have absolutely no idea.

3. Sanchez still keeps making bad decisions - that has to mean one of the following. Either 1. he is a dumb-as-a-doorknob stupid QB. (1st round picks are littered with bust QBs after all, i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller and Joey Harrington for instance.) 2. The system makes no fucking sense (This is evidenced by the clusterfuck of a mess by almost the entire offense, i.e. through the "lack" of execution) or 3. the QB coach is doing a piss-poor job. My take? It could a combination of all three, but I'd say the priority of the blame goes 2 3 1.

4. All in all, how does this help Sanchez or Jets? I don't see how this helps anything, other than Cavanaugh saving his face by throwing the QB under the bus.

I did feel like this weasel should have been canned at the earliest possible chance...

[alleycat9]

that or maybe the qb just isnt that good.

[displacedfan]

I read your comments and then read the quotes, but the quotes wasn't as bad as I expected. He probably shouldn't have said anything except talking about the future because that is what every other coach and player has done. But what he said might have some weight, meaning since Sanchez has had success early, you don't really try to cut down the mistakes. You say keep it up, it worked so far. The thing is, that means the coaches were telling him it was fine because their job is to mold him.

Now looking back at what I just wrote, the comments are as bad as you portrayed them. I just had to spell it out to myself. No way should he have said this, especially as a QB coach. He is criticizing himself because his job is tied to the succes of the QB, so he is trying to deflect off himself 3 months after the season eneded

[dcm1602]

None of this is that bad at all

"There were turnovers that were not his fault that were credited to him," Cavanaugh said of the quarterback. "But there were enough that, playing that position, he needs to cut some of those down. Most of them came from just poor decision-making."

"When we were sitting at 8-5, he probably still wasn't questioning some of the decisions that he made that cost us a ball or cost us points or put our defense in a tough spot," Cavanaugh said. "When the season ended 8-8 and his last three games were not very good ... I think it became much more evident to him."

"Sometimes when you have quote-unquote the success that he had the first two years, maybe it doesn't hit home," Cavanaugh added. "Maybe it's like, 'Hey, I thought I was playing pretty good. Yeah, I threw some picks and some of them were bad decisions, but we still got to the AFC Championship game.' (Last) year, I think he became much more aware (that) it's a fragile business."

Matter of fact none is really bad period.

All im hearing is theres a fire under his ass now

[Zach]

that or maybe the qb just isnt that good.

That is a certain possibility. Whether that is true or not, throwing the QB under the bus is not how you work as a QB coach no matter how you slice it - or is it?

[displacedfan]

That is a certain possibility. Whether that is true or not, throwing the QB under the bus is not how you work as a QB coach no matter how you slice it - or is it?

Well if you want to know how to not properly develop a QB this is probably one of the next steps after doing everything else the Jets have done.

[Harpua]

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4. All in all, how does this help Sanchez or Jets? I don't see how this helps anything, other than Cavanaugh saving his face by throwing the QB under the bus.

I did feel like this weasel should have been canned at the earliest possible chance...

How was he throwing anyone under the bus? He made comments that Mark needs to cut down on Turnovers. Any average Jets fan knows this. Mark sure as hell better know this. The whole article is a non story that revisits old info with new quotes. Your way over reacting to it.

[Zach]

None of this is that bad at all



Matter of fact none is really bad period.

All im hearing is theres a fire under his ass now

Wanna see how it starts?

"But there were enough that, playing that position, he needs to cut some of those down. Most of them came from just poor decision-making."

That's placing the blame squarely on the QB, no? It sounded more or less like "Whatever mess he created, that's all on him and not a drop on me." statement to me.

[HardHitta]

A shit QB doesn't go around scoring 32 TD's. That's not the case, He isn' ryan leaf or kyle boller. Shottenheimer was a dumb fuck and Cavanaugh is a shit head. The reason why we kept him is beyond stupid.

[dcm1602]

Wanna see how it starts?



That's placing the blame squarely on the QB, no? It sounded more or less like "Whatever mess he created, that's all on him and not a drop on me." statement to me.

What would you like him to say ?

It was due to poor mechanics ?

Poor arm strength ?

Blame it on the receivers ?

Blame it on the offensive line ?

Sanchez just sucks ?

Sanchez still has poor decision making this is no secret.

If Cavanaugh puts the blame on anyone else it would just make a rift on this team worse.

He was honest and said Marks decision making needs to get better.

I have no problem with that

[Zach]

What would you like him to say ?

It was due to poor mechanics ?

Poor arm strength ?

Blame it on the receivers ?

Blame it on the offensive line ?

Sanchez just sucks ?

Sanchez still has poor decision making this is no secret.

If Cavanaugh puts the blame on anyone else it would just make a rift on this team worse.

He was honest and said Marks decision making needs to get better.

I have no problem with that

He doesn't have to say anything for now - does he? Like I said, this bullshit was UNPROVOKED. HE went up to say these things - yes. HE initiated this. Not the paper. That's where the problem lies. If the press asked such question from a press conference, I might not have a problem with this.

[Footballgod214]

Maybe Cavanaugh is laying the 'ground work' for what's to come....

[dcm1602]

For starters NFL.coms article was based off this article

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Which was about

Cavanaugh laid out his goals for the quarterback, including becoming an effective game manager in Tony Sparano’s new offensive system.

"So I spent a lot of time with him talking about ‘Let’s get focused on managing the game,'" Cavanaugh added. “Taking the big plays when they’re there (and) understanding that... even though it’s drawn up to be a touchdown, not every play has to be a touchdown. Not every play has to be a completion. Sometimes throwing it away is a good thing. Sometimes taking a sack is better than throwing an interception.”

Cavanaugh echoed Sanchez’s sentiment that the Jets starter doesn’t need Tim Tebow, or any other quarterback, to push him to become better. Cavanaugh reiterated that Sanchez still has the requisite skill-set to become a champion if he becomes more consistent.

“If you’re going to be a really good quarterback, you’re self-motivated,” Cavanaugh said. “I think he believes that in his heart. He’s as confident as anybody. He’s as confident as I am that he can be really really good in this league, win a lot of games and help us win a Super Bowl if he stays focused, if he sticks to the game plan, if he manages the game at the right time.

“He knows he has that ability,” Cavanaugh added. “So I don’t think he needs any outside forces to motivate him.”


If you read the actual article youll see that this isnt a sandbagging, it was an interview about Cavanaugh saying what Sanchez has to do to work in Sparanos offense.

Eitherway he again did nothing wrong

and your comments that he "just came out and randomly made some unprovoked attacks at Sanchez" are simply unsubstantiated

[Jets1Zero]

What would you like him to say ?

... That the offensive schemes were overly complicated, and that Mark is still growing as a QB. It would be true. Hell, he could have said "Our goal is to turn the ball over less next season" and that would have flown better. By out right saying that your QB has poor decision making, you are completely throwing him under the bus.

[dcm1602]

... That the offensive schemes were overly complicated, and that Mark is still growing as a QB. It would be true. Hell, he could have said "Our goal is to turn the ball over less next season" and that would have flown better. By out right saying that your QB has poor decision making, you are completely throwing him under the bus.

If you read the real article that I linked above, I doubt youd consider him to have thrown Sanchez under the bus

[Zach]

For starters NFL.coms article was based off this article

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Which was about




If you read the actual article youll see that this isnt a sandbagging, it was an interview about Cavanaugh saying what Sanchez has to do to work in Sparanos offense.

Eitherway he again did nothing wrong

and your comments that he "just came out and randomly made some unprovoked attacks at Sanchez" are simply unsubstantiated

I don't know - maybe I should have cross-checked the material closely. This was what nfl.com had to say:

Mark Sanchez must make better decisions if he is to cut down on costly interceptions, New York Jets quarterbacks coach Matt Cavanaugh told the New York Daily News on Sunday.

It does not specify any circumstances - rather takes the tone of him taking the initiative to start the things up. Unsubstantiated? Probably I should have checked the daily news site (which I consider is a piece of crap btw) but in no way my opinion was unsubstantiated.

[soxxx]

Really excited to see how Sanchez responds. We are going to find out next year just how good Mark can be.

[Jets1Zero]

If you read the real article that I linked above, I doubt youd consider him to have thrown Sanchez under the bus

"But there were enough that, playing that position, he needs to cut some of those down. Most of them came from just poor decision-making."

This is all I need to read. The rest is "Let me say nice things so I dont get fired for implying that our franchise QB is bad at his job."

[dcm1602]

I don't know - maybe I should have cross-checked the material closely. This was what nfl.com had to say:



It does not specify any circumstances - rather takes the tone of him taking the initiative to start the things up. Unsubstantiated? Probably I should have checked the daily news site (which I consider is a piece of crap btw) but in no way my opinion was unsubstantiated.

... You assume that he initiated because it says he told them this ?

You ounderstand how interviews/newspapers work right ?

You jumped to some crazy conclusion because they use the word told, and in no way shape or form does that suggest that he initiated it.

Im SURE it was just a routine interview, since these guys need to get readers until they have actual shit to write about

Hell nfl.com even referenced (and linked) to the article in the first sentence.

[azhar80]

Maybe Cavanaugh is laying the 'ground work' for what's to come....

That's unfortunately the same feeling I have been getting with many of these interviews. However the media is good at making a simple story into a SENSATIONAL one ex Wr Kerley and Tebow throws faster than Sanchez lol.

I don't know why we have schittys bf as our qb coach, plz bring in Pennington,Testaverde even... This whole tebow, wildcat coach Sparano seems like a bad setup, I hope Sanchez and the Jets play lights out and Tebow does well in his roles.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

This is why Bill Parcells had the rule that nobody talks for the team but him.

Nothing good can come out of the QB coach publicly criticizing one of the QB's in the off-season. Critical behavior in-house is one thing, because it's part of Cavanaugh's job, but public criticism should come from the head coach or nobody.

What we just saw Cavanaugh do was to open up another front on the Jet's media issues for the coming season. He can't put those words back in his mouth and he can't control how other people will interpret and exploit them.

[laxin]

I honestly hate NFL.com, they spin EVERYTHING to try and get people’s attention. They make the article seem like Cavanaugh is saying “Sanchez made a shitload of mental errors and most of the blame on the turnovers are all of his fault”...

But I do not think he should have said anything at all. This probably is nothing that will get way overblown. The usual.

[Zach]

This is why Bill Parcells had the rule that nobody talks for the team but him.

Nothing good can come out of the QB coach publicly criticizing one of the QB's in the off-season. Critical behavior in-house is one thing, because it's part of Cavanaugh's job, but public criticism should come from the head coach or nobody.

What we just saw Cavanaugh do was to open up another front on the Jet's media issues for the coming season. He can't put those words back in his mouth and he can't control how other people will interpret and exploit them.

YES. Precisely why I want this piece of shit QB coach canned immediately.

[azhar80]

The funny thing is especially offense its a new start, even Wayne Hunter went over to Holmes and told him clean slate, and fresh start... But I guess our designer glasses wearing qb coach didn't get the memo that a new offense means a new start for everyone.

For ex reporter asks, " coach what was the issue with Sanchez and his turnovers?"
Designer glasses: That was last years offense and this year I'm excited abt working with a new coach and offense.

That's simple if he wanted extra brownie points he would've said that the turnovers did occur just like his touchdowns. Turnovers occur as a team and do touchdowns no 1 man is responsible for a win or a loss.

Or he could have said...

It was Schottys fault, that guy called better defensive plays than offensive, thank god I'm here, and he is not.

[Sloup]

Call me crazy, I'd rather have this opinion based on years of observation in the papers than the opinion based on selling subscriptions by pimping Tebow.

Sanchez is going to surprise people even though he shouldn't, and it's all because ESPN can't stop talking about Tebow. He's an above-average QB and he's going to have an above-average year to go with it.

That sounds pretty anti-Tebow, but I just want to clarify it's really anti-media. It's not entirely his fault they follow him around like a lost puppy.

[evojoe67]

The funny thing is especially offense its a new start, even Wayne Hunter went over to Holmes and told him clean slate, and fresh start... But I guess our designer glasses wearing qb coach didn't get the memo that a new offense means a new start for everyone.

For ex reporter asks, " coach what was the issue with Sanchez and his turnovers?"
Designer glasses: That was last years offense and this year I'm excited abt working with a new coach and offense.

That's simple if he wanted extra brownie points he would've said that the turnovers did occur just like his touchdowns. Turnovers occur as a team and do touchdowns no 1 man is responsible for a win or a loss.

Or he could have said...

It was Schottys fault, that guy called better defensive plays than offensive, thank god I'm here, and he is not.

Cavenaugh is the QB coach. It's his resposibility to identify the problems with the QB and work on making sure they're corrected.
It would be irresponsible of him to wipe the slate clean each year and say " last years mistakes are last years mistakes".


I, for one, find it refreshing, especially on a Rex coached team, that MC spoke honestly and said Sanchez has some things to correct and if he corrects them, he's gonna be fine.
Looking at each year as a fresh start is fine, but not looking back so as to identify and correct mistakes is just plain irresponsible. Especially if the guy wants to keep his job.

[JetsUK]

I honestly hate NFL.com, they spin EVERYTHING to try and get people’s attention. They make the article seem like Cavanaugh is saying “Sanchez made a shitload of mental errors and most of the blame on the turnovers are all of his fault”...

But I do not think he should have said anything at all. This probably is nothing that will get way overblown. The usual.

I often feel like I have clicked on profootballtalk rather than nfl.com when I go on there now - its the worst kind of sensationalist crap that seem to go up there - its like they want to be ESPN :(

[DRC™]

How can this guy guy criticize a hall of fame caliber QB like Sanchez? Shame on you, Cavanaugh

[TNJet]

The problem is that Rex is loyal to his Coaches to a fault. A player? meh. He would still have Schotty there if up to him. He kept Cavanaugh because of his Raven ties.

So, here is to hoping someone in the FO fires Cavanaugh and that Chad Pennington is brought in to develop our 2 starting QBs.

[sg3]

not even close to what the OP described it as

[JetsUK]

not even close to what the OP described it as

the problem is it doesnt matter what is said - all you will get is the negative spin/sensationalist headlines:

Sanchez's poor decisions picked apart by coach - NY Daily News

Mark Sanchez must make smarter choices, says Jets QB coach - NFL.com

Jets quarterbacks coach faults Sanchez for “poor decision-making” - PFT


How does any of this help the Jets?

[nyjunc]

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To me, he is public enemy #2 after Schottenheimer. And he comes from the same shit school Brian is from (Some variant of Coryell offense, last time I checked.)

1. I have to wonder why Jets didn't get a QB coach that was well versed in E/P system (which will be the choice of offense from Sparano.) It's not like capable coaches weren't available either. Dan Henning (I don't know if HE wants to get employed or not) is still available for instance.

2. So Sanchez still makes bad decisions, eh? Good job - now he's throwing the QB under the bus - and this was unforced bullshit, remember. Why he had to come out with this bullshit, I have absolutely no idea.

3. Sanchez still keeps making bad decisions - that has to mean one of the following. Either 1. he is a dumb-as-a-doorknob stupid QB. (1st round picks are littered with bust QBs after all, i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller and Joey Harrington for instance.) 2. The system makes no fucking sense (This is evidenced by the clusterfuck of a mess by almost the entire offense, i.e. through the "lack" of execution) or 3. the QB coach is doing a piss-poor job. My take? It could a combination of all three, but I'd say the priority of the blame goes 2 3 1.

4. All in all, how does this help Sanchez or Jets? I don't see how this helps anything, other than Cavanaugh saving his face by throwing the QB under the bus.

I did feel like this weasel should have been canned at the earliest possible chance...

I don't quite get what is so bad aqbout the article? He mentioned not all the INts were his fault(obviously) and that the ones that were he had to make better decisions. I'm confused what is so outrageous about that statement? Should he lie and say "keep doing what you're doing!"?

[LongTimeJetsFan]

My opinion is that Sanchez' biggest flaw is making stupid decisions. He really needs to clean that up.

[nyjetsrule]

Wanna see how it starts?



That's placing the blame squarely on the QB, no? It sounded more or less like "Whatever mess he created, that's all on him and not a drop on me." statement to me.

At what point does Sanchez have to accept accountability for his actions? Sanchez failed down the stretch, if Mark isn't capable of admitting that, then he won't develop into the guy we want him too.

I personally would want Mark (privately in the locker room) to personally take responsibility for the failures of the team late in the year. It isn't all his fault, but he didn't perform well enough.

[jixxjr]

[QUOTE=Br4dw4y5ux;2493668]

What we just saw Cavanaugh do was to open up another front on the Jet's media issues for the coming season. QUOTE]

Actually, what we just saw is Cavanaugh covering his own ass in case Sanchez fails. "I'm not a bad coach just because I cannot get him to pay attention to what I'm saying, it's all his fault!!! Please don't fire me!!!" :wink:


A good coach, like a good teacher, knows how to reach people and to get them to do what they need to do even if it means trying different techniques to achieve this goal. Obviously, Cav hasn't figured out how to get Sanchez's attention yet. Does that make him a bad coach? No. But, it makes him the wrong coach for this kid.

[themorey]

Maybe Rex should have been the one to say this but it needed to be said. Did any of you watch the last game against Miami last year when Dirty threw 2 picks to the same DL? If something looks like shit, smells like shit, and tastes like shit....you call it shit. Change the messenger but the message is spot on.

[nyj62]

Maybe the coaches know something we dont. That is why they were hell bent on another Qb . Maybe Sanchez cant get it. Mybe they are thinking if he screws up a dumbed down offense we will be covered . None of us know the truth really. He did not say a thing none of us did not know already , Sanchez has the ability but makes dumb mistakes. I put him in the same boat as Romo at times they look great and other times they leave you screaming for bubby brister. Well maybe not that bad.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

Maybe Rex should have been the one to say this but it needed to be said. Did any of you watch the last game against Miami last year when Dirty threw 2 picks to the same DL? If something looks like shit, smells like shit, and tastes like shit....you call it shit. Change the messenger but the message is spot on.

The entire offense was on vacation if you didn't notice. But I have no issues with what the QB coach said. He needs to stop trying to make something out of nothing. I think it's Sanchez's primary issue and the only true pressing issue that he needs to get better at ASAP.

But QB coaches shouldn't be running their mouth to the media. Have they learned nothing? This should of stayed inside the locker room.

[Remarker]

nfl(dot)com was fishing to get one of their articles 'hits' and Zack took the bait.

QB controversies are the media's low hanging fruit and the Jets' fruit is hanging the lowest.

[Brunell's Debt]

What exactly did Cavanaugh say that was wrong? Sanchez did cause a ton of turnovers with poor decision making, and he does need to cut down on them if the Jets have any chance of getting back to the playoffs.

Telling the truth isn't throwing anyone under the bus, it's telling the truth. I don't want to see the Jets turn into the Isles, who have a ready-made list of excuses for every last place finish.

If Sanchez is so fragile that he gets damaged by hearing Cavanaugh say "stop throwing so many picks," then we're completely fucked no matter what.

[Wolf Brother]

Looks like the coaches took to heart the impression after the fallout of last year that Mark has been cuddled and is not focused enough. Mark has trouble reading underneath zone coverage and locks onto receivers: if the first option is not there, he immediately gets scared and looks for the checkdown. In critical moments, he forces the ball into coverage and shows a lack of preparation in terms of properly reading the defenses and seldom goes through all of his progressions. Being careful with the ball sounds like something Tebow is inherently good at.

The gloves are coming off, and the leash is shorter than currently advertised. I believe that Mark is being replaced. Actions speak louder than words, and looks like a harbinger of a decision (by management) that has already been made, imo.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

Looks like the coaches took to heart the impression after the fallout of last year that Mark has been cuddled and is not focused enough. Mark has trouble reading underneath zone coverage and locks onto receivers: if the first option is not there, he immediately gets scared and looks for the checkdown. In critical moments, he forces the ball into coverage and shows a lack of preparation in terms of properly reading the defenses and seldom goes through all of his progressions. Being careful with the ball sounds like something Tebow is inherently good at.

The gloves are coming off, and the leash is shorter than currently advertised. I believe that Mark is being replaced. Actions speak louder than words, and looks like a harbinger of a decision (by management) that has already been made, imo.

Your over analyzing the article bro.

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk 2

[Bannon]

Looks like the coaches took to heart the impression after the fallout of last year that Mark has been cuddled and is not focused enough. Mark has trouble reading underneath zone coverage and locks onto receivers: if the first option is not there, he immediately gets scared and looks for the checkdown. In critical moments, he forces the ball into coverage and shows a lack of preparation in terms of properly reading the defenses and seldom goes through all of his progressions. Being careful with the ball sounds like something Tebow is inherently good at.

While the last sentence is true, one problem is that Tebow has all of the same areas to improve that you list out for Sanchez. One difference is that Tebow, usually instead of making a bad throwing decision, will start running around.

I thought Cavanaugh was right on point, accurate in his assessment, but a little too candid for an interview about his player. I don't think he should have spoken that specifically about the winning stunting his development. He should have stopped after the part about the need to reduce the turnovers.

The one big difference between Tebow and Sanchez -- Tebow has a strong tendency to challenge down the field. It's like he barely sees the first 20 yards from scrimmage sometimes. He figures "look for chunk yardage, if not there run for about 4 or 5 yards." He's having to de-program to look for the quick, short range windows.

[Catt_County]

Looks like the coaches took to heart the impression after the fallout of last year that Mark has been cuddled and is not focused enough. Mark has trouble reading underneath zone coverage and locks onto receivers: if the first option is not there, he immediately gets scared and looks for the checkdown. In critical moments, he forces the ball into coverage and shows a lack of preparation in terms of properly reading the defenses and seldom goes through all of his progressions. Being careful with the ball sounds like something Tebow is inherently good at.

:rofl: Obviously, you haven't observed many Tim Tebow pass attempts. The only reason Tebow doesn't have a boxcar full of INTs is because he doesn't throw very much. Throwing in the general direction of his receivers is something "Tebow is inherently good at".

The gloves are coming off, and the leash is shorter than currently advertised. I believe that Mark is being replaced. Actions speak louder than words, and looks like a harbinger of a decision (by management) that has already been made, imo.

:rofl: I doubt you are correct, but one can always hope ...

[sec314]

None of this is that bad at all



Matter of fact none is really bad period.

All im hearing is theres a fire under his ass now

That's what I was thinking, where is the meat? What's the big deal, stating the obvious to me.

[JET'S_my_name]

I blame Tebow.....I mean, everything is his fault, right?

[Ted]

I see nothing wrong with what Cavanaugh said, in fact he did point out the obvious that not all Int's were Sanchez' fault. On the other hand, those who seem out raged at this seem to be wearing the same kid gloves that some question the Jets coaching of doing when it comes to Sanchez. 26 TOs in one season is way to high for a QB and makes it damn near impossible for teams to be successful. If the Jets are going to have success Sanchez needs to cut down on the mistakes. Pretty basic philosophy.

[Big Blocker]

Zach overreacted in the OP. He's a good poster but no comment by anyone in the Jet organization is acceptable to Zach unless the person quoted blames anything and everything on Schotty.

Conversely anything said that points to problems with the O as coming from Sanchez is a form of blasphemy.

That is a problem since any fair minded person would have to say that Sanchez made plenty of unforced errors last year that cost the Jets bigtime.

But as for the complaint that Cavanaugh should not have said anything, I think those saying that are missing the point.

While I do not think the Jet FO has already given up on Sanchez, you do have to wonder what their view of him is. Then again, maybe you don't have to wonder at all.

Here's the Qb Coach, someone clearly who has worked within the organization for a few years, retained after Cally and Schotty both left, now working for a new OC, who has described something he sees as a significant issue for the O. NO WAY Cavanaugh would do that unless he thought that view was common in the Jet organization. NO WAY.

In short, whatever people here may think, however many wanted to blame Schotty for all the O's problems, well Schotty has left and there is still a huge problem, and it is called Mark Sanchez and his difficulties playing as an NFL Qb with efficiency and effect.

[FrankWhite]

Sanchez obviously makes poor decisions from time to time, but this year we will see how many of them were directly related to Schotty and his god-awful offense -- both his play calling and horrific play design -- and how much was just on Sanchez.

I'm of the belief Schotty was a total disaster and things will improve just by him being gone. I think Cavanaugh should have followed him out the door too, but oh well.

[Ted]

Sanchez' mistakes should go down simply because the oppourtunities to make them will be down. Sparano will provide a vanilla run oriented offense that dates pre 1990s. The Jets offense should reduce the miosakes but will become more one dimensional.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Sanchez obviously makes poor decisions from time to time, but this year we will see how many of them were directly related to Schotty and his god-awful offense -- both his play calling and horrific play design -- and how much was just on Sanchez.

I'm of the belief Schotty was a total disaster and things will improve just by him being gone. I think Cavanaugh should have followed him out the door too, but oh well.

Maybe some of it had to do with the OC, and I despise Schotty, but things like calling a premature timeout to give the other team more time and throwing the ball to defensive linemen have nothing to do with the OC. I'm sure I could rattle off quite a few more poor decisions that had nothing to do with Schitty if I thought about it.

[FrankWhite]

Maybe some of it had to do with the OC, and I despise Schotty, but things like calling a premature timeout to give the other team more time and throwing the ball to defensive linemen have nothing to do with the OC. I'm sure I could rattle off quite a few more poor decisions if I thought about it.

No, it's clear Sanchez made plenty of mistakes himself, nobody can dispute that.

But when your OC insists on running his system that has proven to be bad year in and year out, that virtually all the players complained about, where it seems as if he goes out of his way to put his qb in a position to fail, it really leads to more mistakes. The offense just seemed like a big clusterfuck most of the time and everyone points fingers at the QB.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

I don't quite get what is so bad aqbout the article? He mentioned not all the INts were his fault(obviously) and that the ones that were he had to make better decisions. I'm confused what is so outrageous about that statement? Should he lie and say "keep doing what you're doing!"?

No, he shouldn't say anything to the press. What he tells management is one thing but in the tabloid wars in NY anything that he says is going to get spun in the way that sells the most papers.

The Post and the Daily News are dying for a major QB contoversy this year on the Jets. Short of the team going on a Super Bowl run that QB controversy will probably sell the most new print for them. It was irresponsible of Cavanaugh to feed that growing fire.

It looks like the Jets plan this off-season is to publicly start to disavow Sanchez so that if he fails they look like they got it right (well, after giving him that ridiculous extension if they thought he was failing). If he succeeds? Well then they were brilliant because they decided to put a lot of pressure on him and look what happened!

It's a too-smart move by far and of course what is most likely to happen is that it blows up in their faces somehow.

[Ted]

No, he shouldn't say anything to the press. What he tells management is one thing but in the tabloid wars in NY anything that he says is going to get spun in the way that sells the most papers.

The Post and the Daily News are dying for a major QB contoversy this year on the Jets. Short of the team going on a Super Bowl run that QB controversy will probably sell the most new print for them. It was irresponsible of Cavanaugh to feed that growing fire.

It looks like the Jets plan this off-season is to publicly start to disavow Sanchez so that if he fails they look like they got it right (well, after giving him that ridiculous extension if they thought he was failing). If he succeeds? Well then they were brilliant because they decided to put a lot of pressure on him and look what happened!

It's a too-smart move by far and of course what is most likely to happen is that it blows up in their faces somehow.In today's media world it seems to make no difference whether or not you say anything. The meda will always speculate and try and makes flames wherever there is a smoke.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Looks like the coaches took to heart the impression after the fallout of last year that Mark has been cuddled and is not focused enough. Mark has trouble reading underneath zone coverage and locks onto receivers: if the first option is not there, he immediately gets scared and looks for the checkdown. In critical moments, he forces the ball into coverage and shows a lack of preparation in terms of properly reading the defenses and seldom goes through all of his progressions. Being careful with the ball sounds like something Tebow is inherently good at.

The gloves are coming off, and the leash is shorter than currently advertised. I believe that Mark is being replaced. Actions speak louder than words, and looks like a harbinger of a decision (by management) that has already been made, imo.

I agree with you that the signs are that the Jets have moved on from Sanchez and are just waiting for the right moment to make it happen.

I disagree heavily on Tebow being better at making decisions than Sanchez. The Broncos did everything they could last year to minimize the choices he had to make as a QB. They had him throwing the ball into the ground as a rule so that if his receiver couldn't catch it nobody could.

If you look at the way Sanchez started off the 2010 season you see the same pattern by the coaches. They had him throw no risky passes and they minimized his exposure to turnovers and he threw no Int's through 5 games.

Then they opened it up some and he threw some picks, although the Jets kept winning, including a few of the comeback wins that are one of his traits at this point. The season looked very much like the one that just about any young QB not named Tom Brady or Peyton Manning had in his 2nd season.

Young QB's make mistakes. That's just what it is.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

In today's media world it seems to make no difference whether or not you say anything. The meda will always speculate and try and makes flames wherever there is a smoke.

And this is where Bill Parcells is a genius. He chokes off all that stuff by enforcing the no-speak rule on the organization. He's the only source on the management side who speaks and he keeps a wary eye on the players, letting them know that if they speak out of turn there will be consequences.

My view on the Jets at this point is that the ship is already smoking and it's only a matter of time before it catches fire. That's on many different levels, not just the simple level of who will play QB this year. The odds the Jets avoid a major conflagration are low at this point and having somebody as low in the pecking order as the QB coach throwing fuel on the fire is just stupid from an organizational point of view.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Look at the Jets of 1999-2000. There was potential media controversy all over the place with them not living up to expectations and no QB in place after Vinny's injury and Keyshawn getting shipped out of town and all of that and yet no flames and no conflagration.

The storyline remained Martin, Vinny, Chrebet, etc, because the Jets kept their mouth's shut, particularly after Keyshawn left town. They didn't achieve the things they wanted too, missing the playoffs in both years while the Giants went to the Super Bowl in 2000 but they didn't go up in flames either.

That was Parcell's scheme at work and it was a very under-rated head coach in Al Groh who was also low-key.

[nyjunc]

Look at the Jets of 1999-2000. There was potential media controversy all over the place with them not living up to expectations and no QB in place after Vinny's injury and Keyshawn getting shipped out of town and all of that and yet no flames and no conflagration.

The storyline remained Martin, Vinny, Chrebet, etc, because the Jets kept their mouth's shut, particularly after Keyshawn left town. They didn't achieve the things they wanted too, missing the playoffs in both years while the Giants went to the Super Bowl in 2000 but they didn't go up in flames either.

That was Parcell's scheme at work and it was a very under-rated head coach in Al Groh who was also low-key.

yet both teams choked while w/ everone talking in '09 & '10 we made 2 title games. You can be successful in a variety of ways.

[championjets69]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

To me, he is public enemy #2 after Schottenheimer. And he comes from the same shit school Brian is from (Some variant of Coryell offense, last time I checked.)

1. I have to wonder why Jets didn't get a QB coach that was well versed in E/P system (which will be the choice of offense from Sparano.) It's not like capable coaches weren't available either. Dan Henning (I don't know if HE wants to get employed or not) is still available for instance.

2. So Sanchez still makes bad decisions, eh? Good job - now he's throwing the QB under the bus - and this was unforced bullshit, remember. Why he had to come out with this bullshit, I have absolutely no idea.

3. Sanchez still keeps making bad decisions - that has to mean one of the following. Either 1. he is a dumb-as-a-doorknob stupid QB. (1st round picks are littered with bust QBs after all, i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller and Joey Harrington for instance.) 2. The system makes no fucking sense (This is evidenced by the clusterfuck of a mess by almost the entire offense, i.e. through the "lack" of execution) or 3. the QB coach is doing a piss-poor job. My take? It could a combination of all three, but I'd say the priority of the blame goes 2 3 1.

4. All in all, how does this help Sanchez or Jets? I don't see how this helps anything, other than Cavanaugh saving his face by throwing the QB under the bus.

I did feel like this weasel should have been canned at the earliest possible chance...
Sorry all of U are missing the key point that MS lacks the innate ability to make snap decisions & that is not a coachable thingy:sad:

[Big Blocker]

Cavanaugh being down on Sanchez, and this being representative of the views within the organization, of course does not in itself make Tebow any better a player.

At this rate I would not be shocked if we saw McElroy in there at some point this season.

[Big Blocker]

Sorry all of U are missing the key point that MS lacks the innate ability to make snap decisions & that is not a coachable thingy:sad:

I think that MAY be what is going on, but in truth it is not in most cases, and probably not in Mark Sanchez's, either, a distinct line between what is coachable and what is an inherent limitation in the player.

I also think what you said should be clarified - Mark in fact does make snap decisions. He just makes the wrong ones too often.

How much of this is coachable? I really don't know, but you definitely get the impression it is more and more the consensus within the organization that it is not the coaching that has been at fault.

Turning back to the whole Schotty controversy, it is of course interesting that nothing being said about last year and Sanchez amounts to blaming Schotty for the problems. As someone said they could have been saying, well you know we have a different system and different plays coming up this season, and that should benefit Mark.

No one is saying that, as far as I can tell.

They are saying Mark needs to do better.

Something tells me Sparano is not unhappy this is happening.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

yet both teams choked while w/ everone talking in '09 & '10 we made 2 title games. You can be successful in a variety of ways.

The 1999 team didn't choke, they faced an impossible situation in which even the coach was in despair and yet they pulled it together and avoided a disaster.

The 2000 team just didn't have the talent yet. They didn't have a #1 WR after Keyshawn was traded and the bounty they got for him was still too young to make a heavy impact. They still managed to win 9 games in what was a very tough division at the time, with Indy, Miami and Buffalo all contending alongside the Jets.

The 2009 and 2010 Jets had one team to beat and two weak sisters. Not a 5 team cluster that included every other team making the playoffs either the year before, that year or the next.

[TurkJetFan]

i read the full article in the daily news today and he is far from pointing the finger at sanchez...he's simply saying sanchez needs to improve.

[KurtTheJetsFan]

i see absolutely nothing wrong w/ anything Cavanaugh said. He was asked where Sanchez needed to improve & he answered the question.

His take on Sanchez's struggles make alot of sense to me. Additionmally those struggles are not uncommon for a young QB going into his 4th year. Nothing to see here.

[nyjunc]

The 1999 team didn't choke, they faced an impossible situation in which even the coach was in despair and yet they pulled it together and avoided a disaster.

The 2000 team just didn't have the talent yet. They didn't have a #1 WR after Keyshawn was traded and the bounty they got for him was still too young to make a heavy impact. They still managed to win 9 games in what was a very tough division at the time, with Indy, Miami and Buffalo all contending alongside the Jets.

The 2009 and 2010 Jets had one team to beat and two weak sisters. Not a 5 team cluster that included every other team making the playoffs either the year before, that year or the next.

They choked in '99, they lost a tough game at Indy then didn't show up the next week vs. a medicore Giant team. Win either of those games and they make the playoffs but they waited until they were 1-6 before they started winning then waited until they were 4-8 and out of it before winning again.

The 2000 team was 6-1 and 9-4, they choked. We didn't have a #1 WR but we had more than enough talent to be a playoff team especially at 6-1/9-4.

Buffalo didn't contend, they lost 4 of their last 5.

2009 had only one good team in the division but it was a 4 teams division. '09 Mia was in the race as much as '00 Buf so they had 2 teams to deal w/ out of 3 instead of 3 of 4 in '00 but in '09 we weren't 6-1 then 9-4

The bottom line is 1999, 2000, 2008 and 2011 all failed. '99, '00 & '08 all had the media secrecay and didn't allow ass't coaches to talk. We didn't win or lose b/c asst's could or couldn't talk. mark Sanchez isn't going to succeed or fail b/c his QB coach stated the obvious.

[dmarz45]

I would love to see the awkward convo that Cavanaugh and Nacho have next practice lol

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

Took a look at a Jets article from the Jets Blog. Interesting tidbit about Schottenheimer and how he tells Sanchez who throw the football too. So if Schottenheimer predetermined who gets the ball would this be the reason why Sanchez locks down on WRs? If Sanchez didn't throw the football to the guy Schottenheimer wanted he would give Sanchez some bullshit stare

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[FrankWhite]

Took a look at a Jets article from the Jets Blog. Interesting tidbit about Schottenheimer and how he tells Sanchez who throw the football too. So if Schottenheimer predetermined who gets the ball would this be the reason why Sanchez locks down on WRs? If Sanchez didn't throw the football to the guy Schottenheimer wanted he would give Sanchez some bullshit stare

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What article is this?

[nyjunc]

Took a look at a Jets article from the Jets Blog. Interesting tidbit about Schottenheimer and how he tells Sanchez who throw the football too. So if Schottenheimer predetermined who gets the ball would this be the reason why Sanchez locks down on WRs? If Sanchez didn't throw the football to the guy Schottenheimer wanted he would give Sanchez some bullshit stare

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I didn't see that article and I have a hard time believing he told Sanchez who to throw the ball to. If that was the case I take back all the positive things I said about Brian but I don't believe that for a second. I'd need to see some real proof.

[FrankWhite]

I didn't see that article and I have a hard time believing he told Sanchez who to throw the ball to. If that was the case I take back all the positive things I said about Brian but I don't believe that for a second. I'd need to see some real proof.

I'm sure you've had this debate a million times, but could you give me the cliffs notes version of what exactly Schotty did that was good here?

[Br4dw4y5ux]

I didn't see that article and I have a hard time believing he told Sanchez who to throw the ball to. If that was the case I take back all the positive things I said about Brian but I don't believe that for a second. I'd need to see some real proof.

The way it was addressed previously was that Schotty would tell Sanchez who was supposed to be open on a play given the design. That was supposed to be his primary read on the play and then he was to check down from there.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

The way it was addressed previously was that Schotty would tell Sanchez who was supposed to be open on a play given the design. That was supposed to be his primary read on the play and then he was to check down from there.

What I'm getting from this is that Schottenheimer had 2 reads either the primary option or a checkdown. What about progressing to other WRs? To me it feels they were on the field for decoy purposes. Call me stupid but no offense should be ran that way. And wtf if he throws it to someone other than those 2 options he gets scolded.

We can compare the # of targets Mason and Plax received in comparison to Holmes who is our main weapon.

[DarrelleRevis,Human?]

If the Jets organization wasn't such a circus show right now this would never make headlines or its way on First Take as a top debate.

I see it as a non-story.

[TwoHeadedMonster]

The '99 season was a failure??? We went through Testaverde, the punter, and Rick "Jeff George without the arm" Mirer, then settled on using our kick returner as the starting QB. We had so many injuries we were signing guys off the street-- 15 injured players total, missing 108 games (89 starts). And we finished 8-8 after starting 1-6, in a division where the records were 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, 11-5, and 13-3.

It was a letdown because we all expected a Super Bowl appearance that year. At the same time, it was one of the years in which I was most proud to be a Jets fan. We could have easily been a 3-win team or worse that year, but the team really pulled together and showed amazing character.

[nyjunc]

The '99 season was a failure??? We went through Testaverde, the punter, and Rick "Jeff George without the arm" Mirer, then settled on using our kick returner as the starting QB. We had so many injuries we were signing guys off the street-- 15 injured players total, missing 108 games (89 starts). And we finished 8-8 after starting 1-6, in a division where the records were 8-8, 8-8, 9-7, 11-5, and 13-3.

It was a letdown because we all expected a Super Bowl appearance that year. At the same time, it was one of the years in which I was most proud to be a Jets fan. We could have easily been a 3-win team or worse that year, but the team really pulled together and showed amazing character.

It was absolutely a failure, this team went 6-3 w/ ray Lucas at QB so there was plenty of talent around the QB but it took them too long to overcome the Vinny injury(and a few others) and parcells made a blunder inserting Mirer.

It was nice to finish .500 at the time but looking back and remember how we blew it against a mediocre Giant team to fall to 4-8, if we win that Giant game we make the playoffs if everything else stayed the same but the team quit a aweek after losing a touhg game at Indy. To BP's credit he got that team to play hard again for the final month but it was too late.

[Zach]

Zach overreacted in the OP. He's a good poster but no comment by anyone in the Jet organization is acceptable to Zach unless the person quoted blames anything and everything on Schotty.

Conversely anything said that points to problems with the O as coming from Sanchez is a form of blasphemy.

That is a problem since any fair minded person would have to say that Sanchez made plenty of unforced errors last year that cost the Jets bigtime.

But as for the complaint that Cavanaugh should not have said anything, I think those saying that are missing the point.

While I do not think the Jet FO has already given up on Sanchez, you do have to wonder what their view of him is. Then again, maybe you don't have to wonder at all.

Here's the Qb Coach, someone clearly who has worked within the organization for a few years, retained after Cally and Schotty both left, now working for a new OC, who has described something he sees as a significant issue for the O. NO WAY Cavanaugh would do that unless he thought that view was common in the Jet organization. NO WAY.

In short, whatever people here may think, however many wanted to blame Schotty for all the O's problems, well Schotty has left and there is still a huge problem, and it is called Mark Sanchez and his difficulties playing as an NFL Qb with efficiency and effect.

You didn't get what irritated me.

Constructive criticism is all good and dandy - I get that part. Unlike your assertion, however, I don't view "not getting the pink slip" as an endorsement of his fine job during his tenure. Maybe they did like him like you say. Maybe they tried to replace QB coach and failed so Matt was retained. Who knows?

Things get viral when you do the dirty laundry IN PUBLIC. That's when shitstorm hits the area. That is what irked me - more than anything. If Rex came out and said these, Ok. I can take that - it's coming from the head coach. Why does a position coach have to create a media shitstorm for a team that is a circus in town already?

[Catt_County]

You didn't get what irritated me.

Constructive criticism is all good and dandy - I get that part. Unlike your assertion, however, I don't view "not getting the pink slip" as an endorsement of his fine job during his tenure. Maybe they did like him like you say. Maybe they tried to replace QB coach and failed so Matt was retained. Who knows?

Things get viral when you do the dirty laundry IN PUBLIC. That's when shitstorm hits the area. That is what irked me - more than anything. If Rex came out and said these, Ok. I can take that - it's coming from the head coach. Why does a position coach have to create a media shitstorm for a team that is a circus in town already?

You answered your own question. Nobody would ask a QB coach anything if not for Circus Tebow.

[Jetaho]

Cavanaugh should shut up. Right or wrong, nothing good can come from him opening his yap to the press, and it would seem that he should share in some of the blame for Sanchez's bad decisions. He is the QB coach after all. And no, that doesn't mean that Sanchez lacks responsibility for his shitty play. It's primarily on him.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

Do QB coaches even talk to the media? More so on this scale.

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[grkmanga31]

I think we all know Sanchez isn't perfect but given the teams situation with the locker room, these comments from Cavanaugh should have never come out. Every sports writer wants something to talk about pertaining to the jets. I guess they just got a little more. What we should be doing is putting a no talking to the media type policy in place until the start of the preseason. The less you give the media, the less they'll be able to say about you.

[Jetfanmack]

I honestly hate NFL.com, they spin EVERYTHING to try and get people’s attention. They make the article seem like Cavanaugh is saying “Sanchez made a shitload of mental errors and most of the blame on the turnovers are all of his fault”...

But I do not think he should have said anything at all. This probably is nothing that will get way overblown. The usual.

This is why guys like Parcells don't like assistants talking to the media.

Like it or not, it's the headline writer's job to generate clicks. Seeing Jets coach criticizes Sanchez will do that. It's May 14. There's nothing going on in the NFL right now. This is what generates headlines, you just have to ignore it. Everyone does it.

Sanchez made bad decisions with the ball last year. Is that news to anyone? The guy had close to the most turnovers in the NFL, of course several because he just made bad reads or decisions. We knew that. Even Sanchez knows that. But since it's said out loud, it's a story.

It's not like he said Sanchez sucks or Sanchez can't be the guy or "he needs to be more like Tebow" in terms of making decisions. Something like that would be huge news for sure. This will get clicks for a day or 2 and that's it.

[Big Blocker]

You didn't get what irritated me.

Constructive criticism is all good and dandy - I get that part. Unlike your assertion, however, I don't view "not getting the pink slip" as an endorsement of his fine job during his tenure. Maybe they did like him like you say. Maybe they tried to replace QB coach and failed so Matt was retained. Who knows?

Things get viral when you do the dirty laundry IN PUBLIC. That's when shitstorm hits the area. That is what irked me - more than anything. If Rex came out and said these, Ok. I can take that - it's coming from the head coach. Why does a position coach have to create a media shitstorm for a team that is a circus in town already?

I understand that you are upset and why. Certainly if Cavanaugh said what he said and it was not the view of the Jet coaches, their general view, he was probably being stupid since he would have left himself open to being second guessed. That was my point, though - unless we hear something to the contrary, I think Cavanaugh probably did express the general view of Sanchez held by the CS.

[Zach]

I understand that you are upset and why. Certainly if Cavanaugh said what he said and it was not the view of the Jet coaches, their general view, he was probably being stupid since he would have left himself open to being second guessed. That was my point, though - unless we hear something to the contrary, I think Cavanaugh probably did express the general view of Sanchez held by the CS.

"Whatever happens on the mile, STAYS on the mile."

That was the modus operandi, no?

I don't know if it is my military background or what but, as far as I am concerned, you are never supposed to throw your teammate under the bus in public, especially as the leader and (especially in this case) as a mentor/teacher. You can do whatever the hell you want to do behind the doors - nobody sees it, and you will get things done and correct mistakes. That's all part of becoming better. Now, dragging the dirty laundry list in public? What does that achieve, both long term and short term? You achieve nothing if that much. So my question is why did he have to do this dumb fuck bullshit? Is he that stupid? (I presume he is; I'd assume he is much - by margin of 10+ years, if not more - older than I am, yet if he hadn't figured out what I figured out at my age, how dumb does he have to be? AND he has been in personnel-handling business as a coach for as long as anybody can remember. It makes no sense whatsoever no matter how you slice it.)

[catsigater]

"Whatever happens on the mile, STAYS on the mile."

That was the modus operandi, no?

I don't know if it is my military background or what but, as far as I am concerned, you are never supposed to throw your teammate under the bus in public, especially as the leader and (especially in this case) as a mentor/teacher. You can do whatever the hell you want to do behind the doors - nobody sees it, and you will get things done and correct mistakes. That's all part of becoming better. Now, dragging the dirty laundry list in public? What does that achieve, both long term and short term? You achieve nothing if that much. So my question is why did he have to do this dumb fuck bullshit? Is he that stupid? (I presume he is; I'd assume he is much - by margin of 10+ years, if not more - older than I am, yet if he hadn't figured out what I figured out at my age, how dumb does he have to be? AND he has been in personnel-handling business as a coach for as long as anybody can remember. It makes no sense whatsoever no matter how you slice it.)
Funny, these exact same arguments were going on over on the Broncos board when the coaching and management staffs were saying similar things about Tebow.

Nearly everyone who took the position quoted above was accused of being a blind Tebow homer.

[Footballgod214]

1- I love the fact Rex allows his staff to talk to the media. I hated the dark days of Parcells and Mangini.

2- The most interesting point of the article was that gong to 2 AFCCG in his first 2 seasons has hurt Mark's perception of reality. If MARK thinks Mark is fine, he ain't gonna listen to anyone else. But loosing the last 3 games like he did last year will force Mark to take a look in the mirror and start accepting 'coaching'. And if that don't, then Tebow barking up his ass certainly will.

3- Mark is not capable of putting a team on his shoulders (Brady, Manning, etc). But put a solid team around him and he's capable of 'not blowing it'. He'll even pull off the great 4th qtr comeback from time to time. Rex and Sparano need to keep their expectations for Mark reasonable and Mark needs to play a bit above average. Combine that with good receivers, good TE's, solid running game, and a top rated Defense and Mark will be fitted for a few rings in the near future.

[northernjet]

Cavanaugh should shut up. Right or wrong, nothing good can come from him opening his yap to the press, and it would seem that he should share in some of the blame for Sanchez's bad decisions. He is the QB coach after all. And no, that doesn't mean that Sanchez lacks responsibility for his shitty play. It's primarily on him.

I can't see how it is Cavanaugh's fault that the media blows everything out of proportion with the Jets. He was obviously asked the question and he gave an answer, it's not like he wrote a letter to the editor of the paper and demanded that his opinion be shared with the world.

So seeing as he would have been asked a question directly he had four possible responses:
1) I'm not going to comment on that. Media take: QB coach doesn't back Mark Sanchez, locker room turmoil at an all time high. Tebow set to be starter shortly. etc. etc. etc. Result: Creates a media shitstorm.
2) Praise Sanchez as being an incredible QB (i.e. last year was not his fault at all). Media (and fan for that matter) take: FO is completely out to lunch and can't do their jobs, fire everyone. Result: Creates a media shitstorm and probably doesn't bode well in the locker room.
3) Be unnecessarily harsh on Sanchez (i.e. blaming him and him alone). Media take: FO doesn't support Sanchez, Tebow to be starter soon, etc. Result: Creates media shit storm and probably pisses off Sanchez if not other people in the locker room as well.
4) What he did say, which was supportive of Sanchez but not to the point where they ignore his responsibility for the bad season nor pin everything on him, try to make people realize that he's still a young QB and he's going to go through growing pains. Media spin: who cares? You were honest, realistic and on point. At that point if people can't see through the media spin and BS used to sell papers/generate hits then that's not your problem. Result: Media shit storm as per usual but no real additional damage.

I personally would have more of a problem with it if he did one of these other three things or if he personally went out of his way to put his opinion out there. But I can't fault a guy for honestly answering a question, especially when I agree with everything he said.

[Zach]

Funny, these exact same arguments were going on over on the Broncos board when the coaching and management staffs were saying similar things about Tebow.

Nearly everyone who took the position quoted above was accused of being a blind Tebow homer.

Whether I support Sanchez or not (frankly, I'm less than 50/50 - I see obvious flaws in him, believe it or not) that is not how you do your business. (I would have said the same thing as a Broncos fan whether I support Tebow or not.)

[Wolf Brother]

Has Cavanaugh made such a bold critique publicly of Mark Sanchez before? This seems like a bit of an indictment. Mark needs to work hard to be a game manager? That's my point. That Mark Sanchez is being held over the fire and it seems like the Jets coaches and management are making no secret about the fact that they are taking a hardline look at last year's tape and are not gonna be shy any longer about dishing out the dirt.

In the past, it really seemed like there was an effort to shield Mark and insulate him against blame and the players chaffed at such treatment (anonymous sources saying as much last year).

Add in the fact they brought in Tebow, a guy that beat Mark head to head last year, and you start to see that Mark is getting a job review right now publicly with his replacement (Tebow) clearly waiting in the wings; they are pushing for the change to happen. The bloom is off the rose for Mark Sanchez.

[al_toon_88]

Cavanaugh is right. He's just saying what was painfully obvious to any Jet fan who watched games on a regular basis last season. I don't see what the big deal is.

My question is, isn't it the QB coach's job to help Sanchez become a better decision maker?

In pointing out Sanchez's lack of improvement, Cavanaugh is really bashing himself, too.

[Wolf Brother]

Cavanaugh is not bashing himself because his main message is that Mark wasn't listening. Because of the early success of going to AFC Champs, he wasn't focused on the importance of following instruction, not turning over the ball, and making better decisions. Cavanaugh cannot do it for him if he's not listening. That's the message: when coaching is falling on deaf ears. What this tells me: the bloom is off the rose.

[TheGreenCantona]

Whether I support Sanchez or not (frankly, I'm less than 50/50 - I see obvious flaws in him, believe it or not) that is not how you do your business. (I would have said the same thing as a Broncos fan whether I support Tebow or not.)
read the thread and couldn't agree more.

wether C is right or wrong is besides the point, no successful manager/club ever went their problems in public. If you want to be harder on Sanchez be so, but not in the press.

Therefore i think it is planted, and a sign of things to come. Nobody in their right mind bring in Tebow as a backup, he will play before the end of the season (unless Sanchez aces) and one of sanchez or tebow is gone by the start of the next.

[Barcs]

In that same article he also mentioned that many of the turnovers were not his fault. It's not like he's bashing the guy, he's just saying he needs to clean up his ball protection to avoid a few other mistakes. What were people saying about Eli Manning's HUGE (more than Sanchez) amount of turnovers last season??? Probably the same thing. It's not pointing fingers, the stats speak for themselves.

[Hobbes3259]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

To me, he is public enemy #2 after Schottenheimer. And he comes from the same shit school Brian is from (Some variant of Coryell offense, last time I checked.)

1. I have to wonder why Jets didn't get a QB coach that was well versed in E/P system (which will be the choice of offense from Sparano.) It's not like capable coaches weren't available either. Dan Henning (I don't know if HE wants to get employed or not) is still available for instance.

2. So Sanchez still makes bad decisions, eh? Good job - now he's throwing the QB under the bus - and this was unforced bullshit, remember. Why he had to come out with this bullshit, I have absolutely no idea.

3. Sanchez still keeps making bad decisions - that has to mean one of the following. Either 1. he is a dumb-as-a-doorknob stupid QB. (1st round picks are littered with bust QBs after all, i.e. Ryan Leaf, Kyle Boller and Joey Harrington for instance.) 2. The system makes no fucking sense (This is evidenced by the clusterfuck of a mess by almost the entire offense, i.e. through the "lack" of execution) or 3. the QB coach is doing a piss-poor job. My take? It could a combination of all three, but I'd say the priority of the blame goes 2 3 1.

4. All in all, how does this help Sanchez or Jets? I don't see how this helps anything, other than Cavanaugh saving his face by throwing the QB under the bus.

I did feel like this weasel should have been canned at the earliest possible chance...



No, do you know what this is....This is his way of gaining some of the credit, when Sanchez starts playing better, having been freed from Schitty's System.


Pennington and Favre saw their Passer Ratings increase by 10+ points after fleeing Schotty....and they are two very different style passers.


I'm not saying it's a given, I'm saying that's what the evidence shows.

Put 10 points on Sanchez, and that where Philip Rivers was last year.

If you get nominal growth, and the 10 Schotty points, he's a top 10 in passer rating.



(And let me predict this.....when that DOES HAPPEN, the very gay sports media will chalk it up to the pressure of Tim Tebow....God forbid they should actually analyze historical stats, etc...)

[Hobbes3259]

Has Cavanaugh made such a bold critique publicly of Mark Sanchez before? This seems like a bit of an indictment. Mark needs to work hard to be a game manager? That's my point. That Mark Sanchez is being held over the fire and it seems like the Jets coaches and management are making no secret about the fact that they are taking a hardline look at last year's tape and are not gonna be shy any longer about dishing out the dirt.

In the past, it really seemed like there was an effort to shield Mark and insulate him against blame and the players chaffed at such treatment (anonymous sources saying as much last year).

Add in the fact they brought in Tebow, a guy that beat Mark head to head last year, and you start to see that Mark is getting a job review right now publicly with his replacement (Tebow) clearly waiting in the wings; they are pushing for the change to happen. The bloom is off the rose for Mark Sanchez.



Hardly. Those two right now are not even close in terms of QBacking skills.

And FWIW.....It wasn't Mark Sanchez (or the offense for that matter) that gave up contain (after giving up the legnth of the field) to lose in Denver.


Sanchez will break 90 in QBR this year, with Schotty gone. And will sniff, if not finish in the top 10 in that category.

The simple fact is you had a dipshit OC that thought pass plays needed 3 days to develop, a piss poor RT, and your QB STILL IMPROVED.


Penny Suffered. Favre Suffered....What makes Sanchez different....was he more seasoned than those guys?


The second part of it is who is the better football player (outside of being just a QB)

Tebow wins that......but not by all that much. Sanchez has already proven himself to be a big time player in big time spots...Kinda like Jeter...Ok day in and day out....When the lights get bright.....a whole different story.

[Biggs]

This is why guys like Parcells don't like assistants talking to the media.

Like it or not, it's the headline writer's job to generate clicks. Seeing Jets coach criticizes Sanchez will do that. It's May 14. There's nothing going on in the NFL right now. This is what generates headlines, you just have to ignore it. Everyone does it.

Sanchez made bad decisions with the ball last year. Is that news to anyone? The guy had close to the most turnovers in the NFL, of course several because he just made bad reads or decisions. We knew that. Even Sanchez knows that. But since it's said out loud, it's a story.

It's not like he said Sanchez sucks or Sanchez can't be the guy or "he needs to be more like Tebow" in terms of making decisions. Something like that would be huge news for sure. This will get clicks for a day or 2 and that's it.


Pretty much. The problem the Jets seem to have is they don't have a unified front for the media because the organization at the top lacks descipline.

You have a young QB who needs to develop and mature being handled by an organization that operates like a child.

[nyjunc]

Pretty much. The problem the Jets seem to have is they don't have a unified front for the media because the organization at the top lacks descipline.

You have a young QB who needs to develop and mature being handled by an organization that operates like a child.

The employees of the organization aren't being treated like children unlike under BP and Mangini. What exactly that has come out hurts Sanchez? What did Cavanaugh say that is so detrimental to his progress? This is a situation of fans and media dissecting everything that is being said. Cavanaugh stated the obvious, this doesn't hurt Sanchez or the team in any way.

[Big Blocker]

Pretty much. The problem the Jets seem to have is they don't have a unified front for the media because the organization at the top lacks descipline.

You have a young QB who needs to develop and mature being handled by an organization that operates like a child.

I generally agree that the organization lacks discipline, but I also think that in this case it is very unlikely that Cavanaugh is off the reservation in what he said. First of all it was not controversial to any but the biggest Sanchez Homers. But beyond that, I would be very surprised if the CS's view in general of Sanchez is at odds with what Cavanaugh said.

[Zach]

I generally agree that the organization lacks discipline, but I also think that in this case it is very unlikely that Cavanaugh is off the reservation in what he said. First of all it was not controversial to any but the biggest Sanchez Homers. But beyond that, I would be very surprised if the CS's view in general of Sanchez is at odds with what Cavanaugh said.

You just don't get it, do you?

I didn't think so.

(Just to make sure: while I agree that Sanchez wasn't good enough, and made a lot of bone-headed turnovers, THAT IS BESIDES THE POINT. You don't throw your team under the bus in public no matter what the circumstances are.)

[TNJet]

Sanchez obviously makes poor decisions from time to time, but this year we will see how many of them were directly related to Schotty and his god-awful offense -- both his play calling and horrific play design -- and how much was just on Sanchez.

I'm of the belief Schotty was a total disaster and things will improve just by him being gone. I think Cavanaugh should have followed him out the door too, but oh well.

Great post, I agree totally.

[Wolf Brother]

Right now, Jobs are on the line: and everyone is gonna get hyper-scrutinized including Mark Sanchez which is a break from what was done in the past when he was cuddled. Clearly, you get 3 years to prove that you're the guy, and since Rex is tied to Mark in some ways, the clock is ticking.

Mark imploded last year, and although the team had flaws, it also expected more from Mark and was clearly needing Mark to step up and carry the team. He had 9 turnovers the final 3 games which clearly showed that he could not bare the load. These are things that are a significant backdrop to this year.

And now you throw Tebow into the mix and I just don't see how Mark is able to weather the storm when he clearly could not last year, and there was zero threat to his job. Management is under the gun. And they feel that turning the heat up on Mark allows them to test his mettle since they have a guy in Tebow that won games last year, is extremely popular, and can replace him at a second's notice. In other words, they are pushing Mark over the edge: Will he soar, or crumble and fall? When Cavanaugh says "Its a Fragile Business." To me that means, "You can lose your job because its what have you done for me lately. You're not safe because of getting to an AFC Championship anymore." That's what that says to me. It also echos what John Elway said when they traded Tebow: "Its a tough business."

This will be one of the key story-lines of the season. Get your popcorn ready. :shit:

[BeastBeach]

#NYJ QBs coach Matt Cavanaugh on Mark Sanchez: "When we were sitting at 8-5, he probably still wasn’t questioning some of the decisions that he made that cost us a ball or cost us points or put our defense in a tough spot. When the season ended 8-8 and his last three games were not very good... I think it became much more evident to him."

Didn't see this in the OP. This seems to be as much of an indictment of the coaching staff as Sanchez. Did they not watch film during the season and point out bad decisions?

[Professor Frink]

Didn't see this in the OP. This seems to be as much of an indictment of the coaching staff as Sanchez. Did they not watch film during the season and point out bad decisions?
Maybe they did but he wasn't listening

[Biggs]

I generally agree that the organization lacks discipline, but I also think that in this case it is very unlikely that Cavanaugh is off the reservation in what he said. First of all it was not controversial to any but the biggest Sanchez Homers. But beyond that, I would be very surprised if the CS's view in general of Sanchez is at odds with what Cavanaugh said.

It may or may not be, I just find it a little troubling that management seems to want Sanchez to be a better game manager when Rex and Tanny can't even manage the staff.

[AbdulSalam]

Good for Cavanaugh. Sounds like everything he said was basically correct. Sanchez needs to get alot better this season. Hopefully Sparano's offense will help make that happen - otherwise bring in Tebow and see if he can get the chains moving.

[alwaysthejets]

Didn't see this in the OP. This seems to be as much of an indictment of the coaching staff as Sanchez. Did they not watch film during the season and point out bad decisions?
Did you see what Cav said in context, though? They did point things out. Apparently... Mark wasn't hearing it.

It sounds more like Cav is saying, that nobody, including the coaching staff could get Mark to grasp he wasn't playing well, he wasn't focused, he wasn't excelling at certain things, he needed to work harder, which Cav is indicating was the/one of the major areas of issue.

Mark thought he was playing fine... Others thought he was not, he would not take what was being said to him. Mark was thinking he took the team to two AFC Championship Games, the problems with the team weren't really on him/related to him, they were elsewhere... Despite trying to tell Mark he had issues with his reads, he was making poor decisions, he wasn't doing certain things right, he had to get better in certain areas... Mark wasn't hearing that, and wasn't working/taking that to heart and trying to improve.

It sounds like Cav is saying they did try to reach him, but nothing was working, not even when the team got to (8-5), Mark still was thinking he was playing fine. It wasn't until the team melted down, and all else happened and there was chaos and upset, and the team got to (8-8) that Mark was finally ready to listen to what others were saying to him. After all of that.

So, no, I think Cav is almost absolving the coaches etc., by saying point blank essentially, Mark thought he was great, he wouldn't listen to anyone, we TOLD HIM, we TRIED to coach him, he wouldn't let us.

Here it is with a bit more context:

"So I spent a lot of time with him talking about ‘Let’s get focused on managing the game,'" Cavanaugh added. “Taking the big plays when they’re there (and) understanding that... even though it’s drawn up to be a touchdown, not every play has to be a touchdown. Not every play has to be a completion. Sometimes throwing it away is a good thing. Sometimes taking a sack is better than throwing an interception.”

Cavanaugh admitted that those themes didn’t make an impact on Sanchez until the Jets finished the season in free-fall.

“Sometimes when you have quote-unquote the success that he had the first two years, maybe it doesn’t hit home,” Cavanaugh said. “Maybe it’s like, ‘Hey, I thought I was playing pretty good. Yeah, I threw some picks and some of them were bad decisions, but we still got to the AFC Championship Game.’ (Last) year, I think he became much more aware (that) it’s a fragile business.”

For the record, I'm sort of split on whether this was a good idea--speaking out, I mean.

One, Cav's comments pretty much validate a good portion of some of the things said about Mark in some of the reports that leaked out at the end of the season, at least in my opinion. Particularly, that Mark couldn't take criticism, that Mark's head was buried in the sand, that Mark didn't respond well when anyone would tell him things weren't going well, etc., that when teammates tried to work with him he wasn't really grasping the issues at hand, that Mark's work ethic was slightly dicey (this only validates the work ethic in that... if Mark thought he was playing fine he probably wasn't working as much as he should/could be on the themes/issues being pointed out to him by others), etc.

This team needs nothing more than to move forward, and while that doesn't mean ignoring the past, and that does mean learning from the past... Continuing to take swipes at Mark in the press, especially when those swipes have themes of shots taken at Mark by others.... All while Mark has to stand up and continue to reaffirm EVERYONE has full faith in him, he's fine, he's the starter, there are no issues... And when it's been speculated he's "fragile," which, at the rate some of the other things that have been said about him are being seemingly validated... I have no reason to doubt Mark's "fragile" as well... I don't see how airing this critique publicly helps a "fragile" guy in this pressure cooker. AT ALL.

Having said that, I also have to trust that I'm not part of the organization and thus, I grasp that every player responds differently to different approaches... I don't know, maybe Cav bit his tongue for three years... And he all but admits it took a complete meltdown of the team for Mark to grasp he needed to get better, so maybe they think talking to the press and making things public is the only way to keep Mark motivated, too. I don't know. But, it's evident Mark wasn't getting it, at least not at (8-5).... and at least not until after the Miami Meltdown.

I hope Cav knows what he's doing here.

[PraisebetoRevis]

Did you see what Cav said in context, though? They did point things out. Apparently... Mark wasn't hearing it.

It sounds more like Cav is saying, that nobody, including the coaching staff could get Mark to grasp he wasn't playing well, he wasn't focused, he wasn't excelling at certain things, he needed to work harder, which Cav is indicating was the/one of the major areas of issue.

Mark thought he was playing fine... Others thought he was not, he would not take what was being said to him. Mark was thinking he took the team to two AFC Championship Games, the problems with the team weren't really on him/related to him, they were elsewhere... Despite trying to tell Mark he had issues with his reads, he was making poor decisions, he wasn't doing certain things right, he had to get better in certain areas... Mark wasn't hearing that, and wasn't working/taking that to heart and trying to improve.

It sounds like Cav is saying they did try to reach him, but nothing was working, not even when the team got to (8-5), Mark still was thinking he was playing fine. It wasn't until the team melted down, and all else happened and there was chaos and upset, and the team got to (8-8) that Mark was finally ready to listen to what others were saying to him. After all of that.

So, no, I think Cav is almost absolving the coaches etc., by saying point blank essentially, Mark thought he was great, he wouldn't listen to anyone, we TOLD HIM, we TRIED to coach him, he wouldn't let us.

Here it is with a bit more context:



For the record, I'm sort of split on whether this was a good idea--speaking out, I mean.

One, Cav's comments pretty much validate a good portion of some of the things said about Mark in some of the reports that leaked out at the end of the season, at least in my opinion. Particularly, that Mark couldn't take criticism, that Mark's head was buried in the sand, that Mark didn't respond well when anyone would tell him things weren't going well, etc., that when teammates tried to work with him he wasn't really grasping the issues at hand, that Mark's work ethic was slightly dicey (this only validates the work ethic in that... if Mark thought he was playing fine he probably wasn't working as much as he should/could be on the themes/issues being pointed out to him by others), etc.

This team needs nothing more than to move forward, and while that doesn't mean ignoring the past, and that does mean learning from the past... Continuing to take swipes at Mark in the press, especially when those swipes have themes of shots taken at Mark by others.... All while Mark has to stand up and continue to reaffirm EVERYONE has full faith in him, he's fine, he's the starter, there are no issues... And when it's been speculated he's "fragile," which, at the rate some of the other things that have been said about him are being seemingly validated... I have no reason to doubt Mark's "fragile" as well... I don't see how airing this critique publicly helps a "fragile" guy in this pressure cooker. AT ALL.

Having said that, I also have to trust that I'm not part of the organization and thus, I grasp that every player responds differently to different approaches... I don't know, maybe Cav bit his tongue for three years... And he all but admits it took a complete meltdown of the team for Mark to grasp he needed to get better, so maybe they think talking to the press and making things public is the only way to keep Mark motivated, too. I don't know. But, it's evident Mark wasn't getting it, at least not at (8-5).... and at least not until after the Miami Meltdown.

I hope Cav knows what he's doing here.

I find it hard to believe Sanchez just blew the coaches off. This guy is under an inordinant amount of pressure from fans, team mates, coaches, the media, i cant buy that mark just "blew them off" and figured he was playing well enough. Im more inclined to think he either needs more experience to learn how to make intillegent reads, or he cant handle them, ie:is something more instinctive and relying on intuition than something that can be coached. Hopefully its the former.

[Wolf Brother]

I find it hard to believe Sanchez just blew the coaches off. This guy is under an inordinant amount of pressure from fans, team mates, coaches, the media, i cant buy that mark just "blew them off" and figured he was playing well enough. Im more inclined to think he either needs more experience to learn how to make intillegent reads, or he cant handle them, ie:is something more instinctive and relying on intuition than something that can be coached. Hopefully its the former.

Actually, I think Sanchez is exactly how Coach Cav stated. Sanchez reportedly challenged Rex Ryan in a fight when he wanted Mark Brunell to do some reps with the first team; that sounds like a player who thinks he's the shit. And also other players on the team, fearful of how Mark was the exception to the rule, had to go to the press anonymously. And the mantra for bringing in Tebow was that it would push Mark Sanchez. Excuse me, this is the National Football league and Mark was a top 5 pick; he should be pushing himself to be focused and be more accountable for turning the ball over. And to me, that's the main thing that comes out of Coach Cav's comments.

[alwaysthejets]

I find it hard to believe Sanchez just blew the coaches off. This guy is under an inordinant amount of pressure from fans, team mates, coaches, the media, i cant buy that mark just "blew them off" and figured he was playing well enough. Im more inclined to think he either needs more experience to learn how to make intillegent reads, or he cant handle them, ie:is something more instinctive and relying on intuition than something that can be coached. Hopefully its the former.
I don't know that he blew them off per se, and I do think that's a strong indictment... I'll agree with you on that term, no doubt. But, I'm just going off of what Cav said point blank. I think at the very least that something was at play. For the record, I also agree with you that experience could have been playing a factor, as well as the complexity of Schotty's scheme, and I do think a new system will do wonders this season. Having said that...

Per Coach Cav, Mark still wasn't getting focused even when the team was at (8-5) and it was only after they hit (8-8) and the team exploded that Mark started to realize he wasn't playing as well as he thought he was, despite them trying to go over a host of issues/topics with him, or as Cav termed them: themes. That's what Cav said.

And, at this point, you know, honestly... The more I think about it, Cav's sentiment echoes what was allegedly said anonymously about Mark at the end of the season in all of those articles.

It's a sentiment that Profootballtalk/NBC was reporting having heard midway through the season from higher ups in the organization who wouldn't go on record, but claimed on the topic of Mark there were people in the organization who were becoming increasingly less sold on him for the same reasons. Even claimed some higher ups were sure he wasn't the answer.

It's the same sentiment Jamie Dukes of the NFL Network reported hearing from Jets' Coaches at the end of the season. Jamie claims to be close with multiple Jets Coaches, whom he wouldn't name... Jamie went as far as to say, the Jets' Coaches told him that the team thinks that Mark is THE ISSUE, and that some of the coaches are becoming certain he can't be "THE GUY" because Mark wasn't/isn't getting it, and that everyone knew that, and some people were afraid to say it, some people were ignoring it, and others were saying it aloud, leading to friction, because the coaches weren't all over Mark. Jamie said he was also told by the same Jets Coaches Mark's passes/timing were getting skill players nailed, coaches feared the players would be injured, because Mark was leading Dustin and Tone in to traffic, when he was supposed to be their eyes, so they rely on him to make the right reads, adjust properly, and that their skill players were hit in the head more last year, than the prior two years, due to Sanchez and issues related to him. Jamie intimated people don't know nearly half the issues that were going on behind the scenes related to Mark and why things spun out of control. A lot of that can be found on Jamie's twitter feed, quite honestly. He went on a rampage about Mark when a Jets fan tweeted him hate about the Jets perceived interest in Manning. He deleted some of the tweets... But, some still remain. He's also said all of that on Path to the Draft and NFL Total Access.

It's the same theme that Tim Hasselback who claims to be close to one of the Jets QB's claims to have heard... Tim Hasselback has gone in to detail claiming he's heard these same things Cav said about Mark and more. Or Tim claimed to be bff with a Jets player? Something, he hears things from one of the players, apparently.

It's the same sentiment that Chris Carlin and Adam Schein of SNY claim to have heard... Chris Carlin going as far as to say he heard from Jets Coaches Mark's inability to take coaching led to Mark having issues with the skill players because not only was Mark not being held accountable and working hard, Mark's QBing was putting them at injury risk, which led to the larger issues really snowballing...

And, listen, Skip Bayless is crazed, but he intimated he'd heard from "someone close to the situation," he talks to Jimmy Sexton's camp (he reps Rex/Tebow/Schotty) part of the reason peeps flipped the script so badly last season was because the offensive coaches and then Rex were totally ignoring the issues at hand in regards to Mark, and some of the players all but begged them to step in, or help, or do anything, alter the game plans, change things, and they didn't, or at least it seemed they didn't from the outside... It didn't sound like Skip was speculating at all. He said he'd heard the reason things got so bad was because players were begging for the coaches to do something, and had gone to them multiple times, because they couldn't get through to Mark.

At what point, you know, do the allegations being made on this topic start to be based in some kind of truth, ya know? Most of the sources/places the media is claiming to get this stuff from is coaches. Not all, but most places claim talking to coaches or team organization execs. Now Cav goes on record... I just think, at some point, where there's been that much smoke... Something is there. Who knows what, but at the very least, a lot of the same allegations keep getting bandied about and attached to Mark.

Again, I just hope that Cav knows what he was doing talking to the press about this, as... I really want everyone to be able to move forward, not stay plagued by the past, or feel like they're being attacked by the media, pressure cooker is already turned up enough.

[Flyboy]

Really excited to see how Sanchez responds. We are going to find out next year just how good Mark can be.

I say give him one more year. If he doesn't get better this year, then yeah, we should find someone else.

[TheMoops]

He works for Ryan, so I believe he did it for a reason: to light a fire under Sanchez bc he is going to have to play his best season. There have been enough stories about Sanchez being coddled. He is either serious about taking Jets to SB or serious about being Namath off the field.

[Sloup]

He works for Ryan, so I believe he did it for a reason: to light a fire under Sanchez bc he is going to have to play his best season. There have been enough stories about Sanchez being coddled. He is either serious about taking Jets to SB or serious about being Namath off the field.

After reading the article about Cav's quotes on Tebow, I think Cavanaugh got led in questioning. They asked him, "What does Sanchez need to improve on?" then, "What is Tebow working on?" I was okay with his response the first time, but this article takes it another level. Not only did he criticize Sanchez, but then he praised Tebow the next day. Cavanaugh should understand the picture that the media is trying to paint and not buy into it by giving them the answers they want.

In his defense, they might not have printed other quotes that praised Sanchez or criticized Tebow. Rex should have a chat with him to make sure he understands how to talk to reporters.

I'd love to post a link, but I'm too new.

[jerseyjet0912]

sanchez will be fine this yr because sparano is trying to run the fucking wishbone so he wont ever throw it...and you thought you hated B.S....

[PraisebetoRevis]

I don't know that he blew them off per se, and I do think that's a strong indictment... I'll agree with you on that term, no doubt. But, I'm just going off of what Cav said point blank. I think at the very least that something was at play. For the record, I also agree with you that experience could have been playing a factor, as well as the complexity of Schotty's scheme, and I do think a new system will do wonders this season. Having said that...

Per Coach Cav, Mark still wasn't getting focused even when the team was at (8-5) and it was only after they hit (8-8) and the team exploded that Mark started to realize he wasn't playing as well as he thought he was, despite them trying to go over a host of issues/topics with him, or as Cav termed them: themes. That's what Cav said.

And, at this point, you know, honestly... The more I think about it, Cav's sentiment echoes what was allegedly said anonymously about Mark at the end of the season in all of those articles.

It's a sentiment that Profootballtalk/NBC was reporting having heard midway through the season from higher ups in the organization who wouldn't go on record, but claimed on the topic of Mark there were people in the organization who were becoming increasingly less sold on him for the same reasons. Even claimed some higher ups were sure he wasn't the answer.

It's the same sentiment Jamie Dukes of the NFL Network reported hearing from Jets' Coaches at the end of the season. Jamie claims to be close with multiple Jets Coaches, whom he wouldn't name... Jamie went as far as to say, the Jets' Coaches told him that the team thinks that Mark is THE ISSUE, and that some of the coaches are becoming certain he can't be "THE GUY" because Mark wasn't/isn't getting it, and that everyone knew that, and some people were afraid to say it, some people were ignoring it, and others were saying it aloud, leading to friction, because the coaches weren't all over Mark. Jamie said he was also told by the same Jets Coaches Mark's passes/timing were getting skill players nailed, coaches feared the players would be injured, because Mark was leading Dustin and Tone in to traffic, when he was supposed to be their eyes, so they rely on him to make the right reads, adjust properly, and that their skill players were hit in the head more last year, than the prior two years, due to Sanchez and issues related to him. Jamie intimated people don't know nearly half the issues that were going on behind the scenes related to Mark and why things spun out of control. A lot of that can be found on Jamie's twitter feed, quite honestly. He went on a rampage about Mark when a Jets fan tweeted him hate about the Jets perceived interest in Manning. He deleted some of the tweets... But, some still remain. He's also said all of that on Path to the Draft and NFL Total Access.

It's the same theme that Tim Hasselback who claims to be close to one of the Jets QB's claims to have heard... Tim Hasselback has gone in to detail claiming he's heard these same things Cav said about Mark and more. Or Tim claimed to be bff with a Jets player? Something, he hears things from one of the players, apparently.

It's the same sentiment that Chris Carlin and Adam Schein of SNY claim to have heard... Chris Carlin going as far as to say he heard from Jets Coaches Mark's inability to take coaching led to Mark having issues with the skill players because not only was Mark not being held accountable and working hard, Mark's QBing was putting them at injury risk, which led to the larger issues really snowballing...

And, listen, Skip Bayless is crazed, but he intimated he'd heard from "someone close to the situation," he talks to Jimmy Sexton's camp (he reps Rex/Tebow/Schotty) part of the reason peeps flipped the script so badly last season was because the offensive coaches and then Rex were totally ignoring the issues at hand in regards to Mark, and some of the players all but begged them to step in, or help, or do anything, alter the game plans, change things, and they didn't, or at least it seemed they didn't from the outside... It didn't sound like Skip was speculating at all. He said he'd heard the reason things got so bad was because players were begging for the coaches to do something, and had gone to them multiple times, because they couldn't get through to Mark.

At what point, you know, do the allegations being made on this topic start to be based in some kind of truth, ya know? Most of the sources/places the media is claiming to get this stuff from is coaches. Not all, but most places claim talking to coaches or team organization execs. Now Cav goes on record... I just think, at some point, where there's been that much smoke... Something is there. Who knows what, but at the very least, a lot of the same allegations keep getting bandied about and attached to Mark.

Again, I just hope that Cav knows what he was doing talking to the press about this, as... I really want everyone to be able to move forward, not stay plagued by the past, or feel like they're being attacked by the media, pressure cooker is already turned up enough.

I'm going to start this straight up with an apology for any lack of reading (in)comprehension because it's my birthday and I just got back froma VERY hardnight of drinking, but I do love my Jets and you're a very mature poster who seems to actually think before they post -- so I apologize if my post doesn't make any sense (it's 745 and I just got home...)

But when I think of Mark Sanchez, I I don't thinkat 8-5, I honestly can't ever fathom that he's "happy" with that, or that he's "content" or that he's even remotely satisfied with 8 and 5.

When I think of Sanchez, Obviously the first thought I think is that he's a dick (all jokes aside -- ) and that he's very motivated to further his career. I can't see him being content and "slouching" (as Revis would put it) because he thinks he's doing well enough.

I honestly think any boneheaaded mistakes he made -- and they were stupid, were spur of the moment decisions that only instincts could control. Which goes back to my previous comment that only experience under NFL circumstances can only teach you -- not coaches. We have to remember this is this kids 4th year in football, OVERALL. Including College. That's the only saving grace I have in this kid.I hope he works out, he's shown moments of greatness, and he's shown moments of weakness. He's human, maybe that's why I like him but I still feel like he deserves one more year... at least.

Edit: yet again -- Any points I have overlooked -- I'm REALLY sorry for, I'm just shitfaced right now, but I'm trying my hardest to have an honest debate/discussion.

[BeastBeach]

Which goes back to my previous comment that only experience under NFL circumstances can only teach you -- not coaches. We have to remember this is this kids 4th year in football, OVERALL. Including College.

Alright now this is getting a little ridiculous.

If you are going to attribute his poor-decision making to adjusting to NFL circumstances(which he has had 3 years of dealing with, including playoff circumstances) then stop bringing up how little he played in college.

[Big Blocker]

You just don't get it, do you?

I didn't think so.

(Just to make sure: while I agree that Sanchez wasn't good enough, and made a lot of bone-headed turnovers, THAT IS BESIDES THE POINT. You don't throw your team under the bus in public no matter what the circumstances are.)

I don't think that stating the obvious throws anybody under the bus who isn't already there.

Beyond that, as I understand it Cavanaugh did not seek out the media to make his comment, and there is no rule on the Jets against his doing what he did. Focusing on whether assistant coaches should or should not be making public statements is not the issue for me that it is for you.

Or perhaps what you are saying is that people in the organization should only be saying homeristic things however ridiculous they may be.

Anyway, the more important thing here is that the Jet CS is expressing doubts about Sanchez, and no doubt has them.

[nyj62]

I think they started doubting him last year, and if Mcelroy was not hurt he would have been in some games.

[tanknyc]

Then in todays Daily News Paper Cavanaugh is sucking off Tebow. Talking about how good he is and he has progressed nicely over the last couple of months. If Sanchez hasnt done what he thought he would do then he is only a reflection of the QB Coach. What QB coach you know goes out and conducts interviews? Just be happy you got a job. I say get rid of Cavanaugh if he still wants to play the divided locker room game. That was last year this is a new season.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Then in todays Daily News Paper Cavanaugh is sucking off Tebow. Talking about how good he is and he has progressed nicely over the last couple of months. If Sanchez hasnt done what he thought he would do then he is only a reflection of the QB Coach. What QB coach you know goes out and conducts interviews? Just be happy you got a job. I say get rid of Cavanaugh if he still wants to play the divided locker room game. That was last year this is a new season.

Cavanaugh also talked about how he needed to work on some things. Of course Mehta is going to highlight the good comments said about Tebow and the negative ones said about Sanchez. The media wants a QB controversy in the worst way and they're going to push it by doing little things like this throughout the offseason and regular season. Make no mistake about it - the media is going to make every effort to manipulate quotes to their advantage.

QB controversy involving Tebow in NYC = national coverage for these guys.

[Big Blocker]

It may or may not be, I just find it a little troubling that management seems to want Sanchez to be a better game manager when Rex and Tanny can't even manage the staff.

I am going to respond to this point in the context of what Always says in conversation with some others below your post.

At this point in the off season, trying to figure out what is going on in terms of where the Jet organization is in respect of their Qb situation, their offense, and what the CS on O is trying to do, makes for particularly difficult tea leaf reading, it seems. For example, why the contract extension for Sanchez if they are really unhappy with him? If Cavanaugh is trying to send Mark a message, imo which almost certainly is one Cavanaugh at least thinks is one Ryan also wants to send, then how does that stack up with the contract extension?

As fans, we are impatient, and for justifiable reasons, imo. We see a window closing given the age of the core players on the team, and some of their contract situations, like Revis's. Meanwhile we have a problematic situation at Qb, with someone who as his supporters are constantly prepared to argue "TOOK THE TEAM TO TWO AFC CHAMP GAMES IN A ROW!" On the other hand we have him continuing to wallow in the stat hell that is the bottom quarter of the league. And last year's 8-8 finish, with losing 5 out of the last 8.

Perhaps the lack of management you refer to is due to a real controversy within the organization. If you think about it, that is not so hard to understand, given the situation. You have a GM invested in his roster choices and the overall strategy they represented. You have an owner involved very much in those roster choices and related marketing of the team. You have an HC who is learning the management of the O and overall team on the job, now entering his fourth year after a diappointing third. And so do you have that Qb.

Despite anything said to the contrary, the CS also now knows they have a potential issue in Tebow that could make this mess even more messy. They see the schedule. They know their original plan of bringing in Todd Haley to run the passing game went nowhere, and that Sparano is new to the team.

And most importantly they have that question mark at Qb. How come Sanchez crapped the bed last year? Notice Cavanaugh said nothing about a pinched nerve, the last refuge of Sanchez Homers in excusemaking. Instead he seems, quite clearly to me, to be focusing on a frustration with Sanchez's apparent lack of understanding of the situation last year.

As you allude to, perhaps that is not all Sanchez's fault. What did Mark make of Ryan's essentially unqualified support in those ridiculous post game pressers last year? How does he really feel about Schotty leaving? And Cavanaugh staying?

So no, I don't take the position this is all Sanchez's fault, and in that regard the move to bring Tebow in was really counterproductive, essentially inexplicable except as a marketing move by Woody.

And maybe just a little bit of floundering around in an attempt to light a fire under Sanchez.

It goes back to the difference between working hard and being coddled, I think. From all accounts Sanchez is at the facility working. But then there are those coddling allegations. I think those have to do with concerns that either the CS is not holding Mark to account, or as Cavanaugh alludes to not getting through to him.

Focusing on what Cavanaugh talked about, we really can't say for certain what percentage of the responsibility is the CS's, and what is Sanchez's. But we do know that there is a real concern it is not working, and one thing you can be sure about that is that as far as the coaches are concerned, they are going to not only blame Sanchez, but seek to make him take the fall for it if he does not improve.

Going back to our frustration, I think we have to also acknowledge this is a tough situation for the CS to deal with. Some within it are probably more supportive of Sanchez, some less so. They may well be trying to reach a consensus, or more to the point are attempting to figure out what standards to hold Sanchez to, how to handle him going forward, that sort of thing.

My guess is they are struggling to come up with a consensus. I don't envy them. I am not happy with it as a fan, but if I step back from that perspective, it's not so hard to guess what is really going on over there.

[nyj62]

Maybe cav is woody's guy. and Woody wants Tebow in. He knows we will still watch the Jets no matter what , and think of all the extra dollars from fans accross the country that love Tebow. If they can win the same amount of games with Tebow as Mark what QB do you think woody wants. Think of it as owning a business because that is what it is , you will do what brings in the most $$$$. just a little conspiracy theory. LOL

[Wolf Brother]

I am going to respond to this point in the context of what Always says in conversation with some others below your post.

For example, why the contract extension for Sanchez if they are really unhappy with him? If Cavanaugh is trying to send Mark a message, imo which almost certainly is one Cavanaugh at least thinks is one Ryan also wants to send, then how does that stack up with the contract extension?



Contract extension freed up cap space. Basically, it makes it easier to move or trade Sanchez in 2013 if he doesn't work out this year. Here's why: because the guaranteed portion of his contract was converted into 8 million dollar bonus, making the last 3 years non-guaranteed and in a trade a team only has to pay the 8 million for a 4 year contract. Jets saved cap space and paid Sanchez an extra 2.5 million or so, but made his contract more open after this year in terms of deciding if they want to keep him or move on.

[Hobbes3259]

Look, there's way too much BS in the article.

There is another possible explanation. THey're using a little negative motivation.

It stands to reason, with Schotty gone, Sanchez' completion % (and QBR) is going to go up.

If you want to motivate the player the time to do it (and one of Cavanaughs comments alludes to that) is now, BEFORE he gets successful.

If you go back the Henne at Miami, his last two years his Compl. % was above 60%.

If you want to see bad decision making, he's your example. Completing more than 60%, and still kept his QBR around 75.

[metfan2987]

Just another example of people overreacting to unimportant bullshit. Who cares, he just said what everybody already knows, including Sanchez. Was a lot of it due to the bad system? Yes. Was a lot of it due to bad o-line? Yes. Was a lot of it due to Holmes not being where he was supposed to be? ABSOLUTELY! Doesn't change the fact that he made those decisions, and doesn't change the fact that this is a big year coming up for him. He has a shitload of talent, and anybody who just responds "maybe he's just not good" is setting themself up for a fall when he comes out and proves them wrong.

One play that stands out for me was when they were on their own goal line ( forget the opponent) and there was a play that featured him dropping back with Holmes over the middle as his only option. He had a decision to make, throw it to Holmes or eat it (safety) or throw it away (also safety, NOBODY ELSE WAS ANYWHERE IN FRONT OF LINE OF SCRIMMAGE). He threw it to Holmes and it was picked. Bad decision? HELLS YES! However, an even worse play design by a terrible offensive coordinator. What also comes in mind is the play in Philly that was right in Santonio's hands and turned into a pick. One thing that is very positive about Sanchez is that when they were in the red zone, he threw only 3 picks all year

Honestly, his fumbles are a bigger issue than his decision making, and that is VERY fixable. Every young QB has that problem at some point. You know what's necessary to fix that? A GOOD QB COACH. Yeeah, wonder why Cav didnt bring that up, lol.

[BeastBeach]

If you go back the Henne at Miami, his last two years his Compl. % was above 60%.

If you want to see bad decision making, he's your example. Completing more than 60%, and still kept his QBR around 75.

This is terrible logic using an advantageous comparison.

Henne had 14 and 19 picks in his 2 full seasons as a starter. 3 Fumbles

Sanchez had 20, 13, and 18. He also had 17 fumbles.

They are both boneheads who make bad decisions. Sanchez is a better QB because he throws TDs and makes positive plays and Henne for the most part didn't, being especially terrible in the end zone. That is what dragged his QB rating down.

I am not understanding how your argument shows that Sanchez doesn't make bad decisions.

[Big Blocker]

Contract extension freed up cap space. Basically, it makes it easier to move or trade Sanchez in 2013 if he doesn't work out this year. Here's why: because the guaranteed portion of his contract was converted into 8 million dollar bonus, making the last 3 years non-guaranteed and in a trade a team only has to pay the 8 million for a 4 year contract. Jets saved cap space and paid Sanchez an extra 2.5 million or so, but made his contract more open after this year in terms of deciding if they want to keep him or move on.

The Jets made an additional year of his contract guaranteed. Whether this makes him easier to trade or not is not the only issue. It means they are on the hook to him for an additional year at additional cost.

[nyjunc]

This is terrible logic using an advantageous comparison.

Henne had 14 and 19 picks in his 2 full seasons as a starter. 3 Fumbles

Sanchez had 20, 13, and 18. He also had 17 fumbles.

They are both boneheads who make bad decisions. Sanchez is a better QB because he throws TDs and makes positive plays and Henne for the most part didn't, being especially terrible in the end zone. That is what dragged his QB rating down.

I am not understanding how your argument shows that Sanchez doesn't make bad decisions.

Henne also melted under pressure and cost Miami a ton of games, sanchez helped lead numerous comebacks and played very well in postseason helping his team nearly reach the SB twice. Young QBs make bad decisions, it happens but Sanchez for the most part has rebounded to help his team win. he didnt' do it to end 2011 but that hasn't happened often.

[BeastBeach]

Henne also melted under pressure and cost Miami a ton of games, sanchez helped lead numerous comebacks and played very well in postseason helping his team nearly reach the SB twice. Young QBs make bad decisions, it happens but Sanchez for the most part has rebounded to help his team win. he didnt' do it to end 2011 but that hasn't happened often.

No doubt

I think I pointed that out when I said the difference was Henne didn't make good plays to make up for his bad decisions.

I am pointing out how silly his point was.

Why compare Sanchez to Henne as an example of how one is a bad decision maker and the other isn't when their bad decision level was actually somewhat similar?

Are you setting the bar at Chad Henne now?(not directed at you, nyjunc)

[Hobbes3259]

This is terrible logic using an advantageous comparison.

Henne had 14 and 19 picks in his 2 full seasons as a starter. 3 Fumbles

Sanchez had 20, 13, and 18. He also had 17 fumbles.

They are both boneheads who make bad decisions. Sanchez is a better QB because he throws TDs and makes positive plays and Henne for the most part didn't, being especially terrible in the end zone. That is what dragged his QB rating down.

I am not understanding how your argument shows that Sanchez doesn't make bad decisions.

The post was a continutation of the discussion I was having. Henne was playing in a far more QB friendly system in Miami.

Sanchez was playing in a system that eats up Quarterbacks.

Taking all the available information into accound, Sanchez, should produce a QBR of around 90, FINALLY get his Compl % above 60, and go north of 1.5 to 1 td to int ratio (I'd say 2:1, but lets not get over enthusiastic just yet)

[BeastBeach]

The post was a continutation of the discussion I was having. Henne was playing in a far more QB friendly system in Miami.

Sanchez was playing in a system that eats up Quarterbacks.

Taking all the available information into accound, Sanchez, should produce a QBR of around 90, FINALLY get his Compl % above 60, and go north of 1.5 to 1 td to int ratio (I'd say 2:1, but lets not get over enthusiastic just yet)

I am not even going to entertain the idea that Dan Henning's O was QB friendly.

If you ever talked to Dolphins fans post-Pennington or visited the forums, EVERYBODY wanted that old idiot gone.

He loved to run wildcat on 3rd and long. Or run draws. And then on 3rd and inches he would run fades to.......Brian Hartline. When we had this guy named Brandon Marshall on the other side.

Once Henne took over he was unable to adapt the gameplan to a different style of QB. Pennington was one of the most accurate QBs of all time and Henne was very inconsistent. But Henning just kept on running the same system that relied on timing and accuracy instead of playing to Henne's, albeit few, strengths.

If you want that, then maybe you should hire Henning. But you hired Sparano, who wasn't running that O.

[Hobbes3259]

I am not even going to entertain the idea that Dan Henning's O was QB friendly.

If you ever talked to Dolphins fans post-Pennington or visited the forums, EVERYBODY wanted that old idiot gone.

He loved to run wildcat on 3rd and long. Or run draws. And then on 3rd and inches he would run fades to.......Brian Hartline. When we had this guy named Brandon Marshall on the other side.

Once Henne took over he was unable to adapt the gameplan to a different style of QB. Pennington was one of the most accurate QBs of all time and Henne was very inconsistent. But Henning just kept on running the same system that relied on timing and accuracy instead of playing to Henne's, albeit few, strengths.

If you want that, then maybe you should hire Henning. But you hired Sparano, who wasn't running that O.


Too many guys run the draw on third and fifteen, to get 5 more punting yards. We had that here....

But it's a comparative statement.


Try watching Brian Schottenheimers clusterf*ck of an offense.

Pennington went up 10 points in QBR going from Schitty to Henning....


My guess is Sparano is probably a little more straightforward than Either of the two above, which is kind of my point.

Jet's QBs have been held back under Schotty, to what extent, we dont know.....but the evidence available suggests 10+ points on QBR.

We'll see.

[Biggs]

Too many guys run the draw on third and fifteen, to get 5 more punting yards. We had that here....

But it's a comparative statement.


Try watching Brian Schottenheimers clusterf*ck of an offense.

Pennington went up 10 points in QBR going from Schitty to Henning....


My guess is Sparano is probably a little more straightforward than Either of the two above, which is kind of my point.

Jet's QBs have been held back under Schotty, to what extent, we dont know.....but the evidence available suggests 10+ points on QBR.

We'll see.

In 06 with a talentless O Shottenheimer system with Penny running it and running it with a bad arm and bad running backs got us into the playoffs. He was much better in those playoffs on the road against NE than he was at home with much more overall talent than he was at Miami.

Stats don't tell the entire story. Our O in 06 based on our over all talent was excellent. The O Miami ran in 08 was based on more over all talent especially in the run game.

[34miami23]

Henne showed some good potential under Daboll last year before getting hurt to leave me wonder what could have meant to his own career had he finished last year (bad team start aside) ... but even in his college career, he didn't have that "killer" trait for a QB that needs to put the other team away.

[NYCKNP]

I don't care who's fault is for the 2011 season, the past is the past. What the Jets should focus on is the present and the present is that Sanchez needs to improve. As for Cavanaugh, his contract expires after this season. I hope for the 2013 season, the Jets get Chad Pennington as QB coach.

[Hobbes3259]

In 06 with a talentless O Shottenheimer system with Penny running it and running it with a bad arm and bad running backs got us into the playoffs. He was much better in those playoffs on the road against NE than he was at home with much more overall talent than he was at Miami.

Stats don't tell the entire story. Our O in 06 based on our over all talent was excellent. The O Miami ran in 08 was based on more over all talent especially in the run game.

Valid points to be sure, all I'm saying is, I would expect the QB to take a step forward commensurate in size to what the realistic expectations of his Draft position are.

10 QBR points makes him Philip Rivers last year. More than that, puts him Top 10.

Which ANY Jets fan would take today.

[Hobbes3259]

I don't care who's fault is for the 2011 season, the past is the past. What the Jets should focus on is the present and the present is that Sanchez needs to improve. As for Cavanuagh, his contract expires after this season. I hope for the 2013 season, the Jets get Chad Pennington as QB coach.

Personally, I think he'd be the perfect choice.....

[Wolf Brother]

The Jets made an additional year of his contract guaranteed. Whether this makes him easier to trade or not is not the only issue. It means they are on the hook to him for an additional year at additional cost.
You have to figure that the Jets were between a rock and a hard place once Peyton was out of the running and probably felt like we have to deal with the cards we're dealt and tried to give an extension that helped with cap space and gave Mark some perceived support. But then Peyton signed with Denver, which was a surprise probably to the Jets, and Tim Tebow, who had beat them earlier in the season as the quarterback became available. And he's popular and has a pedigree. They got the trade done and it becomes a fluid situation where you made the move and the wheels start to turn. You just got a new set of cards on the table.

And as the days pass you can tell they start thinking: We could not win the way we wanted with Mark, let's try the Unknown that worked so well for Denver. Perhaps Sanchez upset the apple cart even more than was advertised last year, and they lost nearly all confidence in him. Maybe he is not coachable enough or doesn't have his priorities in order. Maybe he thinks he's not the problem but is. Just saying.

Can they ask Mark to tear up the deal or restructure it? Is that why they turn up the fire on him? Or do they really mean to go ahead with this plan to start him and play Tebow in certain situations? Really hard to tell, but based on actions speaking louder than words, the bloom is off of the rose for Mark.

[Big Blocker]

You have to figure that the Jets were between a rock and a hard place once Peyton was out of the running and probably felt like we have to deal with the cards we're dealt and tried to give an extension that helped with cap space and gave Mark some perceived support. But then Peyton signed with Denver, which was a surprise probably to the Jets, and Tim Tebow, who had beat them earlier in the season as the quarterback became available. And he's popular and has a pedigree. They got the trade done and it becomes a fluid situation where you made the move and the wheels start to turn. You just got a new set of cards on the table.

And as the days pass you can tell they start thinking: We could not win the way we wanted with Mark, let's try the Unknown that worked so well for Denver. Perhaps Sanchez upset the apple cart even more than was advertised last year, and they lost nearly all confidence in him. Maybe he is not coachable enough or doesn't have his priorities in order. Maybe he thinks he's not the problem but is. Just saying.

Can they ask Mark to tear up the deal or restructure it? Is that why they turn up the fire on him? Or do they really mean to go ahead with this plan to start him and play Tebow in certain situations? Really hard to tell, but based on actions speaking louder than words, the bloom is off of the rose for Mark.

Heh. Don't take this the wrong way, but we talked about the whys and wherefores of the extension of Sanchez's contract quite a bit when it happened. I am not disagreeing with anything you have said here, but it seems to me it is not the point or subject of current discussion.

I merely mentioned the extension because it is not an obvious fit with a more general, jaundiced view of Sanchez. And even by that I do not mean to say it is impossible that some other considerations might have led the Jet FO to give him an extension even if they were totally unhappy with him.

But despite that possibility, I personally have questions about it all.

I suppose it is possible they have their doubts but, at least before the Tebow trade, were prepared to give him a fair shot despite those doubts.

But at this point I think an extended discussion of his contract extension is a digression from the appearance that the CS is willing to express questions about Sanchez's attitude and understanding about whether he was performing at an accceptable level, and what he should have been doing, and doing going forward, instead.

[Big Blocker]

In 06 with a talentless O Shottenheimer system with Penny running it and running it with a bad arm and bad running backs got us into the playoffs. He was much better in those playoffs on the road against NE than he was at home with much more overall talent than he was at Miami.

Stats don't tell the entire story. Our O in 06 based on our over all talent was excellent. The O Miami ran in 08 was based on more over all talent especially in the run game.

Plus let's not forget that the ass whupping the fish got with that sole playoff appearance, and Penny's awful game, was one of the worst playoff performances in recent memory. At least since that game where the Colts hardly showed up in Foxboro that game it was a wittle too cold for the indoor team. Henning seeme to not help too much in that game.

[Barcs]

Actually, I think Sanchez is exactly how Coach Cav stated. Sanchez reportedly challenged Rex Ryan in a fight when he wanted Mark Brunell to do some reps with the first team; that sounds like a player who thinks he's the shit. And also other players on the team, fearful of how Mark was the exception to the rule, had to go to the press anonymously. And the mantra for bringing in Tebow was that it would push Mark Sanchez. Excuse me, this is the National Football league and Mark was a top 5 pick; he should be pushing himself to be focused and be more accountable for turning the ball over. And to me, that's the main thing that comes out of Coach Cav's comments.

This shows exactly how far the media keeps us from reality. Sanchez never challenged Rex to a fight. It was a comment blown out of proportion just like every negative thread on here. Tebow was brought to NY for the option offense, not to scare Sanchez. I don't think any real QB needs that type of motivation to succeed. They should already be motivated.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

You know what I think happened here?

The Jets wanted Peyton Manning badly but he wasn't interested. If the Jets get Manning then Sanchez sticks around under a deal similar to the one he signed later because the Jets would have needed a LOT of cap space to bring Manning on board and the first step in getting that was to renegotiate Sanchez to a deal that greatly lowered this year's cap hit. They'd have had to renegotiate several people to get the deal done but they'd have done that.

Sanchez would have been the most expensive backup QB in the NFL for a couple of years and the Jets would have figured out what to do with him after 2013, just like they will now.

So the Jets kind of mentally moved on from Sanchez as they made plans to try to get Manning. They were in negotiations with Sanchez for the the restructuring the entire time because they had to get that done to make Manning happen, but they were ready to move on.

Then Manning dissed them and they did the restructure with Sanchez anyway, because it made sense to clear the cap space anyway since they were going to be a bit short as things stood.

Then Manning went to the Broncos and Tebow became available and the Jets were like "OMG! Shiny, shiny, shiny, how many PSL's can Tebow sell for us as our starting QB?" But the problem is that they'd already recommitted to Sanchez in the restructuring, saying that was what they were doing at the time because Manning was no longer an option. They'd already signed a perfectly reasonable backup QB to play behind Sanchez.

So now they have a real problem because no matter how things turn out they are going to look pretty silly and verging on clueless if they push Sanchez aside suddenly and install Tebow as the starting QB. Inquiring people will start to wonder what the heck is up with the Jets who are suddenly tied down by so many guaranteed deals for people who appear not to be worth the deal and in some cases the roster slot.

So the Jets bring Tebow in as the "other" QB. The guy who will run the option package they plan to run next year. They're being disingenuous at this point with the commentary on Sanchez as the starter and Tebow as the backup/option QB but nobody can prove that so the figleaf stays on for a bit.

They're definitely planning to run the option as their main offense at some point next year and so they draft a WR in the draft who does not know how to run a normal route tree. He played in an option defense in college and he's going to take awhile to learn the normal route tree and settle down as an NFL caliber WR. Hill is going to be next to useless to Sanchez as he begins to learn the NFL package but he has a chance to be very strong with Tebow in the option.

Basically what the Jets did this off-season was to try to switch horses to a hall-of-fame bound QB at the end of his career (where have we seen this before?), however he told them to bugger off and so the off-season progressed a little further and the Jets then decided to switch horses again only this time they'd have to play dumb for awhile as they were doing it.

I'd say the odds are close to 100% that Tebow is the starting QB by game 6 next year. Maybe a game or two after that but when he does become the starting QB it will be part of the plan the Jets have had ever since "OMG! Shiny, shiny, PSLs!" became available.

I'll leave it to others to figure out where this all leads but the Super Bowl is not the place in my opinion.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

You know what I think happened here?

The Jets wanted Peyton Manning badly but he wasn't interested. If the Jets get Manning then Sanchez sticks around under a deal similar to the one he signed later because the Jets would have needed a LOT of cap space to bring Manning on board and the first step in getting that was to renegotiate Sanchez to a deal that greatly lowered this year's cap hit. They'd have had to renegotiate several people to get the deal done but they'd have done that.

Sanchez would have been the most expensive backup QB in the NFL for a couple of years and the Jets would have figured out what to do with him after 2013, just like they will now.

So the Jets kind of mentally moved on from Sanchez as they made plans to try to get Manning. They were in negotiations with Sanchez for the the restructuring the entire time because they had to get that done to make Manning happen, but they were ready to move on.

Then Manning dissed them and they did the restructure with Sanchez anyway, because it made sense to clear the cap space anyway since they were going to be a bit short as things stood.

Then Manning went to the Broncos and Tebow became available and the Jets were like "OMG! Shiny, shiny, shiny, how many PSL's can Tebow sell for us as our starting QB?" But the problem is that they'd already recommitted to Sanchez in the restructuring, saying that was what they were doing at the time because Manning was no longer an option. They'd already signed a perfectly reasonable backup QB to play behind Sanchez.

So now they have a real problem because no matter how things turn out they are going to look pretty silly and verging on clueless if they push Sanchez aside suddenly and install Tebow as the starting QB. Inquiring people will start to wonder what the heck is up with the Jets who are suddenly tied down by so many guaranteed deals for people who appear not to be worth the deal and in some cases the roster slot.

So the Jets bring Tebow in as the "other" QB. The guy who will run the option package they plan to run next year. They're being disingenuous at this point with the commentary on Sanchez as the starter and Tebow as the backup/option QB but nobody can prove that so the figleaf stays on for a bit.

They're definitely planning to run the option as their main offense at some point next year and so they draft a WR in the draft who does not know how to run a normal route tree. He played in an option defense in college and he's going to take awhile to learn the normal route tree and settle down as an NFL caliber WR. Hill is going to be next to useless to Sanchez as he begins to learn the NFL package but he has a chance to be very strong with Tebow in the option.

Basically what the Jets did this off-season was to try to switch horses to a hall-of-fame bound QB at the end of his career (where have we seen this before?), however he told them to bugger off and so the off-season progressed a little further and the Jets then decided to switch horses again only this time they'd have to play dumb for awhile as they were doing it.

I'd say the odds are close to 100% that Tebow is the starting QB by game 6 next year. Maybe a game or two after that but when he does become the starting QB it will be part of the plan the Jets have had ever since "OMG! Shiny, shiny, PSLs!" became available.

I'll leave it to others to figure out where this all leads but the Super Bowl is not the place in my opinion.
If the Jets were supposedly drafting players for the Tebow to start, why didn't they pickup someone to protect his blind side?

[BeastBeach]

Too many guys run the draw on third and fifteen, to get 5 more punting yards. We had that here....

But it's a comparative statement.


Try watching Brian Schottenheimers clusterf*ck of an offense.

Pennington went up 10 points in QBR going from Schitty to Henning....


My guess is Sparano is probably a little more straightforward than Either of the two above, which is kind of my point.

Jet's QBs have been held back under Schotty, to what extent, we dont know.....but the evidence available suggests 10+ points on QBR.

We'll see.

Right. PENNNINGTON went up 10 points in that system. Does that mean that every QB in the league would go up 10 points from Schotty to Henning too?

Is there no such thing as a meshing of skills and system?

Chad Henne struggled under Henning. All it takes is Chad Henne jumping in QBR with the Jags this year to blow your argument out of the water.

Correlation is not causation. A comparison based on 1 year under Henning is faulty by its very nature and I think your basis for thinking Sparano is going to help Sanchez is based on absolutely nothing. At least that you have posted so far. Not to mention I must say again, that you are getting Sparano and not Henning so the 10 point QBR jump you keep referring to means nada. Find me a 10 point jump from a QB going to a Sparano offense and maybe I'll hear the argument.

PS: Simplifying an offense can have its advantages. But there are disadvantages that come with it. Which is why many NFL offenses are not simple. Simple can lead to "easy to gameplan against".

[Br4dw4y5ux]

If the Jets were supposedly drafting players for the Tebow to start, why didn't they pickup someone to protect his blind side?

I don't think the Jets were that coherent overall in their thinking on the issue. I think they did decide that the defense had to be propped some because of the emerging talent issues on that side of the ball with aging and injuries taking their toll.

I also think that it's not as easy to find a RT who can act like a LT when a a lefty QB enters the game. Obviously Reilly Reiff would have filled the bill but I'm not sure anybody else that was available was going to be good in that role.

The Jets are going to have both a RT and a TE on Tebow's blindside. There's already an extra blocker over there to help out. The formation doesn't shift when a lefty QB comes into the game, just the location of his blindspot.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Right. PENNNINGTON went up 10 points in that system. Does that mean that every QB in the league would go up 10 points from Schotty to Henning too?

Is there no such thing as a meshing of skills and system?

Chad Henne struggled under Henning. All it takes is Chad Henne jumping in QBR with the Jags this year to blow your argument out of the water.

Correlation is not causation. A comparison based on 1 year under Henning is faulty by its very nature and I think your basis for thinking Sparano is going to help Sanchez is based on absolutely nothing. At least that you have posted so far. Not to mention I must say again, that you are getting Sparano and not Henning so the 10 point QBR jump you keep referring to means nada. Find me a 10 point jump from a QB going to a Sparano offense and maybe I'll hear the argument.

PS: Simplifying an offense can have its advantages. But there are disadvantages that come with it. Which is why many NFL offenses are not simple. Simple can lead to "easy to gameplan against".

There's a list of QB's that left Schotty's tutelage and played much better. I actually agree that doesn't mean Sanchez will do better with a different OC, but I do think it's pretty damning on Schotty.

[Wolf Brother]

Heh. Don't take this the wrong way, but we talked about the whys and wherefores of the extension of Sanchez's contract quite a bit when it happened. I am not disagreeing with anything you have said here, but it seems to me it is not the point or subject of current discussion.

I merely mentioned the extension because it is not an obvious fit with a more general, jaundiced view of Sanchez. And even by that I do not mean to say it is impossible that some other considerations might have led the Jet FO to give him an extension even if they were totally unhappy with him.

But despite that possibility, I personally have questions about it all.

I suppose it is possible they have their doubts but, at least before the Tebow trade, were prepared to give him a fair shot despite those doubts.

But at this point I think an extended discussion of his contract extension is a digression from the appearance that the CS is willing to express questions about Sanchez's attitude and understanding about whether he was performing at an accceptable level, and what he should have been doing, and doing going forward, instead.I hear you. Seems like the front office and coaches are airing out grievances or something, lol. Like this is the kind of stuff they couldn't say before in fear that Mark Sanchez would respond badly? But with Tebow in the fold, a by-product is that they can now talk more openly about what went wrong? Which also validates the rumors of players feeling that Mark was coddled. And that Mark was not coachable and unwilling to listen. It sets the stage for a Team-first mentality, nobody is above reproach and criticism or the law. So to speak.

[BeastBeach]

There's a list of QB's that left Schotty's tutelage and played much better. I actually agree that doesn't mean Sanchez will do better with a different OC, but I do think it's pretty damning on Schotty.

That may be and I'm sure you know more than me about that subject but you're right. My main point is that when you have a QB and an OC that have been together for 3 years and you are unsatisfied with their success, it is foolish to expect a jump in QBR when you don't know whether it was on the QB or the OC, because they have always been together.

Just because an OC sucks doesn't mean he can't have a "bad" qb(not calling Sanchez bad).

It is especially ill-advised to expect a moderate increase in success when you are bringing in a guy like Sparano who hasn't been in charge of an offense by himself before(that I know of) and you are using stats from an offense that he was not in charge of, aside from possibly the offensive line to a degree.

I'm not trying to rain on you guys' parade(although I hope Sparano crashes and burns) but I see way too much blind optimism when it comes to Sparano.

[nyjunc]

There's a list of QB's that left Schotty's tutelage and played much better. I actually agree that doesn't mean Sanchez will do better with a different OC, but I do think it's pretty damning on Schotty.

who is on that list? Chad in '08 b/c he was HEALTHY? Favre in '09 b/c he was back in his familiar system? to blame everything on the OC isn't fair, there is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 2011.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

who is on that list? Chad in '08 b/c he was HEALTHY? Favre in '09 b/c he was back in his familiar system? to blame everything on the OC isn't fair, there is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 2011.

When did I ever blame everything on the OC? You should review my post history before accusing me of that because it's just not true.

Favre, Pennington, Brees, and Rivers all played much better after Schotty was out of there lives. Obviously he was only the OC for two of those cases so I put less stock in the other two, but the connection is there none the less.

[TurkJetFan]

who is on that list? Chad in '08 b/c he was HEALTHY? Favre in '09 b/c he was back in his familiar system? to blame everything on the OC isn't fair, there is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 2011.

there's definitely plenty of blame to go around..but a chunk of that goes to our former inept OC.

[nyjunc]

When did I ever blame everything on the OC? You should review my post history before accusing me of that because it's just not true.

Favre, Pennington, Brees, and Rivers all played much better after Schotty was out of there lives. Obviously he was only the OC for two of those cases so I put less stock in the other two, but the connection is there none the less.

I didn't say you did

He was the QB COACH in SD, you are blaming him for Brees(even though Brees was already a top QB in SD before he left) but nto crediting him for helping to develop him and Rivers?

Philip Rivers? seriously? Rivers didn't become a starter until Brian left.

Schotenheimer deserves some criticism and he's earned that but let's not make stuff up.

Again on Chad and Favre, he got Chad after TWO shoulder surgeries missing most of the previous season and he got Fvare w/ a month to go to the season in a new system for the first time in 15 years. Try to be fair.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

I didn't say you did

You responded to my post with this:
to blame everything on the OC isn't fair, there is plenty of blame to go around for the failure of 2011.

How exactly am I supposed to interpret that?

He was the QB COACH in SD, you are blaming him for Brees(even though Brees was already a top QB in SD before he left) but nto crediting him for helping to develop him and Rivers?

Philip Rivers? seriously? Rivers didn't become a starter until Brian left.

Schotenheimer deserves some criticism and he's earned that but let's not make stuff up.

Again on Chad and Favre, he got Chad after TWO shoulder surgeries missing most of the previous season and he got Fvare w/ a month to go to the season in a new system for the first time in 15 years. Try to be fair.
How am I making anything up? Every QB that Schotty has been involved with in the NFL has done better after he was out of the picture. That's a fact. We will see if that holds up with Sanchez.

[Big Blocker]

I don't think the Jets were that coherent overall in their thinking on the issue. I think they did decide that the defense had to be propped some because of the emerging talent issues on that side of the ball with aging and injuries taking their toll.

I also think that it's not as easy to find a RT who can act like a LT when a a lefty QB enters the game. Obviously Reilly Reiff would have filled the bill but I'm not sure anybody else that was available was going to be good in that role.

The Jets are going to have both a RT and a TE on Tebow's blindside. There's already an extra blocker over there to help out. The formation doesn't shift when a lefty QB comes into the game, just the location of his blindspot.

Going on this and also the previous post about where it all leads, one possible scenario is after they either get, or don't get, a PSL bump from Tebow, they move on assuming he is not the answer, either.

"Hey we tried!"

Well, not really in any coherent fashion did they, but I digress.

I would not be the least bit surprised to see both Sanchez and Tebow fail. First of all, just because one might not or will not succeed does not mean the other will. Second, both are nowhere near polished NFL level Qb's, and who is going to help them get there with a focus on having two Qb's and a gimmick, non-NFL offense? I think I know the answer to that one.

Add in a large does of media attention and a divided fanbase, and Rex still struggling to keep control of his locker room, and by mid November, with the Jets at 3-7, I would not be surprised to see McElroy go into the game and light it up.

Okay, I admit it, this is a sort of dream I have been having on and off now between the usual sex stuff and the occasional flashback.

[Big Blocker]

You responded to my post with this:


How exactly am I supposed to interpret that?

How am I making anything up? Every QB that Schotty has been involved with in the NFL has done better after he was out of the picture. That's a fact. We will see if that holds up with Sanchez.

Geez, junc actually said those things? I guess like a broken clock...

What you are making up by ignoring the context is that your assertion that Schotty held those guys back is bs.

Rivers? Seriously? Your cred took a huge hit there, dude.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

I would never think that someone would support Schottenheimer THIS much in my entire life. Good Lord!

The offense will be dumbed down and simple I don't see how Sanchez wouldn't thrive.

And you really wish for McElroy to succeed? If he's starting then we're in big fucking trouble. For now and the future. Dude has absolutely no arm strength

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[nyjunc]

You responded to my post with this:


How exactly am I supposed to interpret that?

How am I making anything up? Every QB that Schotty has been involved with in the NFL has done better after he was out of the picture. That's a fact. We will see if that holds up with Sanchez.

I was responding to your quote but I wasn't saying you were saying you blame it all on him but many others do.

You are making things up, not giving him credit for Brees, Rivers and sanchez developing but knocking him when guys weren't as good. To blame the QB coach for Brees and Rivers is silly especially when Brees developed into a top QB in NO where he probably had his 2nd best season in his career in 2004. as for Rivers, he didn't play when brian was the QB coahc there, he became the starter in 2006 when Brian was in NY.

and again Chad was fresh off 2 shoulder surgeries on his throwing shoulder in the previous 2 years, he never had a healthy Chad. Favre was in a new system for the first time in 15 years and didn't want to be here.

It's silly misinformed stuff and you know better than that.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

I was responding to your quote but I wasn't saying you were saying you blame it all on him but many others do.

You are making things up, not giving him credit for Brees, Rivers and sanchez developing but knocking him when guys weren't as good. To blame the QB coach for Brees and Rivers is silly especially when Brees developed into a top QB in NO where he probably had his 2nd best season in his career in 2004. as for Rivers, he didn't play when brian was the QB coahc there, he became the starter in 2006 when Brian was in NY.

and again Chad was fresh off 2 shoulder surgeries on his throwing shoulder in the previous 2 years, he never had a healthy Chad. Favre was in a new system for the first time in 15 years and didn't want to be here.

It's silly misinformed stuff and you know better than that.

Like I said, I put less stock in those two guys because he wasn't the OC, but the link is still there. He was involved. I also don't put all the blame on Schotty. That doesn't change the fact that all QB's have done better without Schotty than they did with him.

It doesn't mean Sanchez is going to do better without him or that Bradford will do worse with him, it's just a fact that as of right now doesn't look good for Schotty.

There are many other (better) reasons to get on Schotty than this little tidbit.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

Schottenheimer I would assume is a decent QB coach but his offensive philosophies and playcalling are horrid it won't translate well in St Louis

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[Zach]

Nice job guys. This was not even Schottenheimer thread to begin with...

Just what the hell.

[101_GANG_GREEN_101]

Nice job guys. This was not even Schottenheimer thread to begin with...

Just what the hell.

It always traces back to that bastard. I'm amazed on how protected Schottenheimer is after getting let go. Instead let's just tell the media that the players caused the rift and fucked everything up. There's still a missing element to this entire story. To this day if anyone else called plays for the Jets none of this would be happening. At this point the Jets are STILL playing the blame game and it's getting old real quick.

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[nyjunc]

Like I said, I put less stock in those two guys because he wasn't the OC, but the link is still there. He was involved. I also don't put all the blame on Schotty. That doesn't change the fact that all QB's have done better without Schotty than they did with him.

It doesn't mean Sanchez is going to do better without him or that Bradford will do worse with him, it's just a fact that as of right now doesn't look good for Schotty.

There are many other (better) reasons to get on Schotty than this little tidbit.

Yep, he was involved and help develop 2 of the best QBs in the league(#s wise, Brees is actually a top guy while Rivers is overrated) but somehow this is a negative on his career b/c Brian was only involved in his 2nd best year.

I think Mark is going to have his best year more b/c he's in year 4, he'll actually have some continuity in the receiver dep't, the Ol should be healthy(at least to start the year) and I think Bradford is going to have his best year not b/c of Brian but b/c he's a super talented QB that took a step back last year after a good rookie year.

[Big Blocker]

I would never think that someone would support Schottenheimer THIS much in my entire life. Good Lord!

The offense will be dumbed down and simple I don't see how Sanchez wouldn't thrive.

And you really wish for McElroy to succeed? If he's starting then we're in big fucking trouble. For now and the future. Dude has absolutely no arm strength

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You misread my position. I don't think Schotty is a great OC. Never said that, don't think it. Never have.

But I think he is scapegoated by a large percentage of fans who just do not want to accept that the problems are more widespread, and that many of them have to do with a lack of execution, that in turn may well be based on a lack of talent on the offensive roster.

As far as McElroy is concerned, why would I not want him to succeed if, and i concede it is a big if, he got in there?

No arm strength? Quite the hyperbole, no? But even with less than average arm strength, he could be an effective Qb as long as he doesn't throw into triple coverage and hold the ball too long.

[cval]

The fact is college QB's today are much more NFL ready than in years past which is why you see guys doing well out of the gate then not taking huge strides (Matt Ryan comes to mind)

Sanchez did not get that much college experience so he is behind but has bigger upside. This is the year to prove it.

[Big Blocker]

Nice job guys. This was not even Schottenheimer thread to begin with...

Just what the hell.

LMAO!!

I am sorry, but you gave me a belly laugh with that one.

I take it from a quote someone made above that Hobbes was the culprit, ftr.

Figures.

[Hobbes3259]

Right. PENNNINGTON went up 10 points in that system. Does that mean that every QB in the league would go up 10 points from Schotty to Henning too?

Is there no such thing as a meshing of skills and system?

Chad Henne struggled under Henning. All it takes is Chad Henne jumping in QBR with the Jags this year to blow your argument out of the water.

Correlation is not causation. A comparison based on 1 year under Henning is faulty by its very nature and I think your basis for thinking Sparano is going to help Sanchez is based on absolutely nothing. At least that you have posted so far. Not to mention I must say again, that you are getting Sparano and not Henning so the 10 point QBR jump you keep referring to means nada. Find me a 10 point jump from a QB going to a Sparano offense and maybe I'll hear the argument.

PS: Simplifying an offense can have its advantages. But there are disadvantages that come with it. Which is why many NFL offenses are not simple. Simple can lead to "easy to gameplan against".

You must be comprehension challenged. Pennington was not the only example. Favre had the same problem..And As I pointed out those two are different types of player, but the numbers are what they are.

I did not say Sparano would help him, as much as I said he would stop being hurt...Now, maybe you're new to watching the games, but 4 second pass plays and a bad right tackle, as far as know, is not a formula for QB success....

Yet, he improved a bit over the previous year.


And conversely all it takes is Sanchez numbers to improve as I detailed to make anything Henne does irrelevant.

[Zach]

You misread my position. I don't think Schotty is a great OC. Never said that, don't think it. Never have.

But I think he is scapegoated by a large percentage of fans who just do not want to accept that the problems are more widespread, and that many of them have to do with a lack of execution, that in turn may well be based on a lack of talent on the offensive roster.

You choose to ignore the writing on the wall.

1. Yeah. The problems on offense have been very wide-spread. Kendall fiasco or Braylon fiasco cannot be pinned on Schottenheimer alone - Tannenbaum (or as my brother would affectionately call, T-Bomb) fucked things up beyond redemption in these situations, which led to bringing in Faneca in case of Kendall for instance.

That said, the execution problem can be stemmed down to two things:

a. The players are all collectively dumb as doorknobs and they can't figure things out even if they were playing only by themselves.

b. The play designs make no sense whatsoever.

If Pennington can't get shit done with this offense, I tend to take #2 as the viable explanation. (which you disagree - I just cannot come to grips with that.)

2. Jets offense lack talent? Let's just play split game here. On offense and defense, which side has more talent? Which side performs better? The writing is on the wall there again. If Coples pans out (it remains to be seen) then the coming season will be the first season ever that Rex had a competent defensive line. He still doesn't have a pass rusher other than Maybin. Revis and Cro - that's a necessary evil, since the front seven consistently failed to produce anything with half semblance of pass rush. Just look at the draft picks spent for crying out loud.

On offense? The OL has been better than above-average for a good portion of the past half decade. Receiving corp had musical chair going on for some time but you cannot deny there was a talent invested in there. TE, again that's true too. (Even though you seem to have a healthy dislike for Keller) Other than the RB position, the offense is not too far off in terms of the talent level. Ok - WFH ruins the whole deal, and that is yet another T-Bomb fiasco, but that aside, the offense has been consistently underperforming for past half decade.

And admit it or not, even during the early days of Schottenheimer's tenure, Jets offense always had #1 and #2 receivers. First year, Jets got by with no-name scrubs at RB, and from second year on, Thomas Jones tagged along to address that issue. #1/#2 receiver AND a good back? With Mangold and Ferguson at the line? Is that how you spell "Lack of Talent"?

As far as McElroy is concerned, why would I not want him to succeed if, and i concede it is a big if, he got in there?

No arm strength? Quite the hyperbole, no? But even with less than average arm strength, he could be an effective Qb as long as he doesn't throw into triple coverage and hold the ball too long.

McElroy in the huddle? Are you into some gore stuff? If you want to see deers getting hit by cars on the roadside, you can just do that watching the roadkill video on youtube or something.

Last but not the least, watch how Bradford struggles this year. He could be out for the season before game 5.

[BeastBeach]

You must be comprehension challenged. Pennington was not the only example. Favre had the same problem..And As I pointed out those two are different types of player, but the numbers are what they are.

I did not say Sparano would help him, as much as I said he would stop being hurt...Now, maybe you're new to watching the games, but 4 second pass plays and a bad right tackle, as far as know, is not a formula for QB success....

Yet, he improved a bit over the previous year.


And conversely all it takes is Sanchez numbers to improve as I detailed to make anything Henne does irrelevant.

How do I have comprehension issues when the only QB you specifically mentioned in the posts I responded to was Pennington with a vague reference to other QBs.

You say Favre had the same problem. You mean Chad Pennington had a torn bicep all those years?

Favre didn't give a shit about the Jets, was only in New York for a year, was injured for part of the season(the time period varies according to who you ask), was in a different division, and operated pretty much his own offense from what I have seen many people say on this board. I could go on and on about how different the situations are. You really love those 1 year sample sizes especially when the comparison is apples to oranges.

Truth is you haven't come close to articulating anything resembling an actual argument. Maybe there is some truth to what you are saying but you aren't able to back it up properly.

And all it takes is for Sam Bradford's numbers to improve...you get the picture.

edit: A comparison with much more common ground would be to compare Pennington's numbers under Schotty to Sanchez's numbers under Schotty. But I get the feeling you don't wanna go there.

[Wolf Brother]

Players have to execute regardless of the OC. Brian was the guy that had to fall on the sword for last year's failure. Now with latest reports, the coaches struggled to get Mark to play effective, winning football: he was riding on his success the previous two years and did not develop to expectations. 26 turnovers is a lot. Not sure you can put that all on the OC. For the amount of passes thrown, Sanchez could not stretch the field with only a couple 40+ yard throws, and often was unaware of underneath zone coverage. He imploded on Primetime against the Ravens and Giants then laid an egg against the Dolphins. You know the history. Not sure you can put that all on the OC.

[Zach]

edit: A comparison with much more common ground would be to compare Pennington's numbers under Schotty to Sanchez's numbers under Schotty. But I get the feeling you don't wanna go there.

I will do that for you.

Pennington's number:

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Sanchez's number:

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Interesting notes:

Pennington got hammered 30 times in 2006 season. The next season... Pennington and Clemens both got hammered 25+, but you cannot blame that on the OC. T-bomb fucked things up royally that season with Pete Kendall, and had Adrien Clarke playing LG.

Now, what's funny is, Favre got hammered 30 times too, during his only stint with Jets.

Then you know what happened with Sanchez. (26/27/39) People kept saying Sanchez held the ball too long and whatever. Ok. Here is the stats. Except last year, Sanchez fared better than both Favre and Pennington in the Sack department. (True, the OL was better than Pennington's days, I would assume - but Favre case you cannot really make a case about it.)

So... the question naturally leads to:

1. Jets OL - with Mangold and Ferguson up front - had better be a fucking joke.

2. Jets passing play design is a fucking joke - either the blocking scheme is a fucking joke, or relies on plays to develop in three days or whatever.

What is your guess? One guy fucking it up at the top, or all five guys down below collectively fucking things up consistently?

Interesting take #2:

No QB broke 7.0 YPC barrier under Schottenheimer's command. (Favre was at pedestrian 6.7 by the way. READ: By pedestrian, I mean BELOW AVERAGE) Is it because the QBs just cannot throw? Or is there something else involved?

Interesting take #3:

Pennington is +2 in TD/Int department. (17/16, 10/9) Other than injury-shortened (that is, less than half a season) seasons, he had near 1:1 ratio on TD/INT only once. (In that short season: he was +1 twice, and -1 twice, so collectively the ratio is at 1:1) Then twice in two years under Schottenheimer. At least in TD/INT ratio, Sanchez beats both Pennington and Favre combined. (Sanchez: +4, Pennington: +2, Favre: 0 at 22/22)


Players have to execute regardless of the OC. Brian was the guy that had to fall on the sword for last year's failure. Now with latest reports, the coaches struggled to get Mark to play effective, winning football: he was riding on his success the previous two years and did not develop to expectations. 26 turnovers is a lot. Not sure you can put that all on the OC. For the amount of passes thrown, Sanchez could not stretch the field with only a couple 40+ yard throws, and often was unaware of underneath zone coverage. He imploded on Primetime against the Ravens and Giants then laid an egg against the Dolphins. You know the history. Not sure you can put that all on the OC.

Refer to the stats above and tell me what you think. At the end of the day, production on the field never lies.

And Ravens raping Jets QBs was rather a regular protocol in Schottenheimer's offense - you cannot pin that on Sanchez.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. #1. This will be my last Schottenheimer related post in this thread. There is already another thread about it.

P.S. #2. I do not find it fair to do these analysis on my part while not getting anything remotely comparable to those I put up from SDF camp. I would sincerely request some cold, hard data to back up whatever you want to support. Without evidence, just who gives a fuck about whether you are right or wrong?

[milo]

I really don't see anything wrong with what he said.

Unless we're going to put him in a diaper and give him a pacifier on the sideline they all need to stop worrying about Nacho and his frail fucking ego. The Tebow shit-storm did way more to fuck with him than anything that anyone says about turnovers.

He'll deal with it or he'll be replaced. No more excuses.

[BeastBeach]

I will do that for you.

Interesting notes:

Pennington got hammered 30 times in 2006 season. The next season... Pennington and Clemens both got hammered 25+, but you cannot blame that on the OC. T-bomb fucked things up royally that season with Pete Kendall, and had Adrien Clarke playing LG.

Now, what's funny is, Favre got hammered 30 times too.

Then you know what happened with Sanchez. (26/27/39) People kept saying Sanchez held the ball too long and whatever. Ok. Here is the stats. Except last year, Sanchez fared better than both Favre and Pennington in the Sack department. (True, the OL was better than Pennington's days, I would assume - but Favre case you cannot really make a case about it.)

So... the question naturally leads to:

1. Jets OL - with Mangold and Ferguson up front - had better be a fucking joke.

2. Jets passing play design is a fucking joke - either the blocking scheme is a fucking joke, or relies on plays to develop in three days or whatever.

What is your guess? One guy fucking it up at the top, or all five guys down below collectively fucking things up consistently?

Interesting take #2:

No QB broke 7.0 YPC barrier under Schottenheimer's command. (Favre was at pedestrian 6.7 by the way. READ: By pedestrian, I mean BELOW AVERAGE) Is it because the QBs just cannot throw? Or is there something else involved?


Refer to the stats above and tell me what you think. At the end of the day, production on the field never lies.

You did a much better job in breaking down the numbers. My response to Hobbes initially was based upon using QBR to measure a Quarterback's bad decision making. QBR is a very silly metric to evaluate a quarterback's play, but that is the argument he made so that is what my rebuttals were based upon.

Your breakdown, especially with regards to YPA, does lead to some questions regarding the playcalling but at the same time you can't look at all of these things in a vacuum.

Sacks per pass attempt is a much better way to look at sack data as from the pure numbers you posted there is no way to tell the number of dropbacks.

I am making an educated guess here that Favre being sacked 30 times and Sanchez being sacked 30 times are not equivalent because I would speculate that Favre attempted to throw the ball more.

By all means correct me if I am wrong in thinking that.

edit: In any event I suppose we will have a clearer picture in a few months when we see Sanchez in a new offense and Schotty on another team.

edit2: I forgot to point out that Pennington had a higher QBR than Sanchez in the 2 years he was under Schotty. I know it was a different coach/philosophy, Pennington wasn't a rookie, etc etc. But there is much more common ground in comparing the 2 of them than there is looking at Schotty on completely different teams with completely different QBs under completely different circumstances and it all hinges on the opinion of whether you think Schotty helped develop Brees or Rivers. If you hate Schotty you say no, if you like him you say yes.

edit3: Regardless of what you think of Schotty, Sanchez does have the worst QBR out of the QBs that Schotty has coached.

[laxin]

I will do that for you.

Pennington's number:

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Sanchez's number:

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Interesting notes:

Pennington got hammered 30 times in 2006 season. The next season... Pennington and Clemens both got hammered 25+, but you cannot blame that on the OC. T-bomb fucked things up royally that season with Pete Kendall, and had Adrien Clarke playing LG.

Now, what's funny is, Favre got hammered 30 times too, during his only stint with Jets.

Then you know what happened with Sanchez. (26/27/39) People kept saying Sanchez held the ball too long and whatever. Ok. Here is the stats. Except last year, Sanchez fared better than both Favre and Pennington in the Sack department. (True, the OL was better than Pennington's days, I would assume - but Favre case you cannot really make a case about it.)

So... the question naturally leads to:

1. Jets OL - with Mangold and Ferguson up front - had better be a fucking joke.

2. Jets passing play design is a fucking joke - either the blocking scheme is a fucking joke, or relies on plays to develop in three days or whatever.

What is your guess? One guy fucking it up at the top, or all five guys down below collectively fucking things up consistently?

Interesting take #2:

No QB broke 7.0 YPC barrier under Schottenheimer's command. (Favre was at pedestrian 6.7 by the way. READ: By pedestrian, I mean BELOW AVERAGE) Is it because the QBs just cannot throw? Or is there something else involved?

Interesting take #3:

Pennington is +2 in TD/Int department. (17/16, 10/9) Other than injury-shortened (that is, less than half a season) seasons, he had near 1:1 ratio on TD/INT only once. (In that short season: he was +1 twice, and -1 twice, so collectively the ratio is at 1:1) Then twice in two years under Schottenheimer. At least in TD/INT ratio, Sanchez beats both Pennington and Favre combined. (Sanchez: +4, Pennington: +2, Favre: 0 at 22/22)




Refer to the stats above and tell me what you think. At the end of the day, production on the field never lies.

And Ravens raping Jets QBs was rather a regular protocol in Schottenheimer's offense - you cannot pin that on Sanchez.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. #1. This will be my last Schottenheimer related post in this thread. There is already another thread about it.

P.S. #2. I do not find it fair to do these analysis on my part while not getting anything remotely comparable to those I put up from SDF camp. I would sincerely request some cold, hard data to back up whatever you want to support. Without evidence, just who gives a fuck about whether you are right or wrong?

I hate to continue the Schotty talk, but really nice write up. I completely agree. Its funny how not one QB has really succeeded in his system... coincidence? I think not. Even if a good deal of it falls on the QB, a good OC would design the system around the QBs strengths (Tebow in Denver last year, Cam last year, even Andy Dalton...). Schotty tried to shove whatever QB he was given into a system that no one could grasp/succeed in.

Im sure plenty of the blame can be chalked up to execution, but there’s no denying Schottys incompetence to create a well oiled machine on offense. His offense is the opposite of Rex’s defense... Rex used game planning and a great system to offset the lack of talent, while Schotty dismissed talent and used it poorly.

Im glad he’s gone. That move seems to be overlooked when discussing the Jets offseason. Im excited to see this new offense come August.

[Zach]

I am making an educated guess here that Favre being sacked 30 times and Sanchez being sacked 30 times are not equivalent because I would speculate that Favre attempted to throw the ball more.

By all means correct me if I am wrong in thinking that.

If you limit the discussion to Sanchez's rookie year, yeah. That is correct. Sanchez was only sacked 26 times BUT he dropped back some 360 times or so. (Sack ratio is pretty high for a QB that threw that less.) But after the rookie year, not really.

Sanchez was sacked 27 times in 507 dropback, while Favre was sacked 30 times in 552 dropback. (That's 5.32% vs 5.43%. Sanchez was sacked less - only slightly.) So I am inclined to think that there is something more than QB play at work.

[BeastBeach]

If you limit the discussion to Sanchez's rookie year, yeah. That is correct. Sanchez was only sacked 26 times BUT he dropped back some 360 times or so. (Sack ratio is pretty high for a QB that threw that less.) But after the rookie year, not really.

Sanchez was sacked 27 times in 507 dropback, while Favre was sacked 30 times in 552 dropback. (That's 5.32% vs 5.43%. Sanchez was sacked less - only slightly.) So I am inclined to think that there is something more than QB play at work.

Got it. There are definitely some concerning numbers there.

Btw I edited my post at the end quite a bit lol and not all of the edits(especially QBR) were in direct response to you, just in case you missed that.

[Biggs]

The Jets went to the playoffs in 06 with absolute trash on the Offensive side of the ball and Pennington could barely throw the ball outside the hash marks and up the field. With Favre before the injury we were 8 and 3 and had arguably the best team in the AFC.

Favre's numbers over the last decade were like a yoyo. Inconsistency is all over his yearly stats.

Sanchez did very well for 2 years and melted down completely last year down the stretch along with the rest of the team. The OC was fired, the QB coach was kept. The team has done some very strange things and talked as if they have little real faith in Sanchez. This is the same management run by the same GM that practically blew Shotty after showing Mangini to the door and acted like he made the steal of the decade when he traded up for Sanchez.

There is clearly doubt about Sanchez in Jetsville all the way at the top. The noise is the sign of panic not a new regime that tells it like it is.

Personally I think Sanchez can be solid for us he just has to grow up, set his feet and throw. Rex has to STFU about ground and pound and put a D on the field that can recover from a bad INT. Dumbing down the O only helps if the QB and Center are dumb. It won't make up for bad decisions, a slow release and innacurate throws.

Sanchez can't grow up until management starts to treat him and the rest of the team like grown men and demand excellence by teaching it not talking about it.

[Wolf Brother]

Personally I think Sanchez can be solid for us he just has to grow up, set his feet and throw. Rex has to STFU about ground and pound and put a D on the field that can recover from a bad INT. Dumbing down the O only helps if the QB and Center are dumb. It won't make up for bad decisions, a slow release and innacurate throws.

Sanchez can't grow up until management starts to treat him and the rest of the team like grown men and demand excellence by teaching it not talking about it.
I'd agree with what you say had they never traded for Tim Tebow. If you bring in Tebow, then you want to get him into favorable situations where he can make plays and be effective. That minimizes Mark's importance; especially if Tebow scores in the redzone or shows the improvement in his passing from last year's Playoff game against Pittsburgh, and a full offseason for the first time. The quote: "This is a tough business." Makes me think that Mark and Tebow are on more equal footing in terms of learning the new offense under Sparano and no one is automatically going to be handed any free passes. Either way, the more one guy, whether its Mark or Tebow is the "guy", the better off for the entire team to gel.

[tanknyc]

Then in todays Daily News Paper Cavanaugh is sucking off Tebow. Talking about how good he is and he has progressed nicely over the last couple of months. If Sanchez hasnt done what he thought he would do then he is only a reflection of the QB Coach. What QB coach you know goes out and conducts interviews? Just be happy you got a job. I say get rid of Cavanaugh if he still wants to play the divided locker room game. That was last year this is a new season.

I just think if you give them no ammo or nothing to work a story off of then the better we are they cant make stuff up out of thin air. Either say both QB's are horrible and they both need work or they both are outstanding and be limited on convo to the press. Just have a silent season as far as talking to the media goes and come out and kick everybodys ass just because.

[Wolf Brother]

I just think if you give them no ammo or nothing to work a story off of then the better we are they cant make stuff up out of thin air. Either say both QB's are horrible and they both need work or they both are outstanding and be limited on convo to the press. Just have a silent season as far as talking to the media goes and come out and kick everybodys ass just because.
That's wishful thinking but you're gonna get the exact opposite: a media firestorm. The team is gonna know what it was like for the Beatles before Shea Stadium. LMAO.

[FriendlyGiantsFan]

Well if you want to know how to not properly develop a QB this is probably one of the next steps after doing everything else the Jets have done.

Seriously, I've thought to myself how you could write a book titled How to NOT Raise a QB and it would be a lot of what Sanchez has had to put up with.

Step 1: Trade up to draft QB, immediately anoint QB "The Franchise" and talk about how he's going to lead you to the promised land.

Step 2: Talk about how the team is going to win the Super Bowl.

Step 3: Constantly shuffle WRs, make sure to bring in at least one guy who happens to be a total asshole. If possible, remove reliable targets whom keep their mouths shut.

Step 4: Have an awful offensive coordinator. If possible, please let him be there for some time prior to QBs arrival so his "system" is in place.

Step 5: Criticize QB publicly, call a timeout he calls for "the dumbest timeout you've ever seen."

Step 6: Bring in a QB with a larger following than your starting QB but also within incredibly flawed mechanics. Call him your "backup"

Step 7: Read the link.



Seriously, I'm far from a Sanchez apologist, but considering how the Jets have almost gone out of their way to make things harder for him, it's hard to see how he had a chance.

[rohirrim665]

Thread title is terribly misleading.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Thread title is terribly misleading.

I don't think so. I think Cavanaugh is not very happy with Sanchez at this point and he's going out of his way to show that. If he's not pointing the finger at Sanchez then he's an idiot because most people will take it that way based on what he has said about Sanchez and Tebow the last couple of days.

[GRNYT]

None of this is that bad at all



Matter of fact none is really bad period.

All im hearing is theres a fire under his ass now
sounds to me like greasing the skids slowly but surely...when he says "success quote-unquote", without hearing the tone obviously, it sounds almost sarcastic...why do i get the feeling the script is already written and it's slowly being revealed thru certain comments and little actions? unless sanchez does an aaron rogers impersonation tebow is starter by mid-season...just the way woody wants it??

[Biggs]

I'd agree with what you say had they never traded for Tim Tebow. If you bring in Tebow, then you want to get him into favorable situations where he can make plays and be effective. That minimizes Mark's importance; especially if Tebow scores in the redzone or shows the improvement in his passing from last year's Playoff game against Pittsburgh, and a full offseason for the first time. The quote: "This is a tough business." Makes me think that Mark and Tebow are on more equal footing in terms of learning the new offense under Sparano and no one is automatically going to be handed any free passes. Either way, the more one guy, whether its Mark or Tebow is the "guy", the better off for the entire team to gel.

Tebow doesn't minimize Marks importance. The Jets aren't going to sniff a SB unless Mark becomes a very good QB and Soprano can teach and run a pro passing O against top defensive teams.

Tim Tebow might be a gimmick to back us into the playoffs if Mark Sucks. He ain't coming close to taking us on a run through the playoffs. The more Tebow plays the more likely Tanny and Rex are gone. They can all distance themselves from Mark but at the end of the day Sanchez has to throw the ball and throw it well for the Jets to make a serious run at a SB. He can do it and the team can do it but not by talking about it or planing to do it a different way.

[Big Blocker]

Tebow doesn't minimize Marks importance. The Jets aren't going to sniff a SB unless Mark becomes a very good QB and Soprano can teach and run a pro passing O against top defensive teams.

Tim Tebow might be a gimmick to back us into the playoffs if Mark Sucks. He ain't coming close to taking us on a run through the playoffs. The more Tebow plays the more likely Tanny and Rex are gone. They can all distance themselves from Mark but at the end of the day Sanchez has to throw the ball and throw it well for the Jets to make a serious run at a SB. He can do it and the team can do it but not by talking about it or planing to do it a different way.

Ftr I don't know what will happen this coming season. None of us do. It's all speculation at this point. No one has a crystal ball, and I hope I have and can retain a level of humility about my own forecast. I certainly hope my pessimism turns out to be unwarranted, because otherwise it will be a long and ugly season, at least on O. And there is some reason to think the D will keep this team in many games, before I proceed to your post.

But I fear this coming season is going to be a shit storm. Hunter is still at RT. VD is still at best in the "not yet a clear bust" category. The Jets still have a not every down back as their #1 RB and no suitable changeup. Keller is not well suited for the type of O they at least say they want to run. And the likely #2 wideout, maybe not on Opening Day but he better be out there soon after that, is very green. Yeah, there's a core of Mangold, Ferguson and Holmes who are above average players, and Kerley may join them as the slot receiver.

But it's not a solid group.

Add Sanchez, particularly last year's Sanchez, the one who did not improve except in some marginal stat categories, who turned the ball over way too much, who did not lead the team, who was sacked far too often, who did not stretch the field, and it does not inspire confidence, to be sure.

But anyone thinking Tebow will improve the performance is crazy. Until we see otherwise, counting on that to happen, whether as a change up during games Sanchez plays or as his replacement, is either Tebot Fantasy or pure homerism.

The last time we saw the #3 Qb in the game for an extended period was when Tanny stupidly brought in the even more fragile Fielder as Penny's backup. Both went down in the same game, and a totally unprepared Bollinger was inserted. I hope they pay more attention to McElroy this pre-season, since there's at least as much chance he gets in there as there was for the #3 at the start of the ill fated 2005 season.

[Hobbes3259]

I will do that for you.

Pennington's number:

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Sanchez's number:

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Interesting notes:

Pennington got hammered 30 times in 2006 season. The next season... Pennington and Clemens both got hammered 25+, but you cannot blame that on the OC. T-bomb fucked things up royally that season with Pete Kendall, and had Adrien Clarke playing LG.

Now, what's funny is, Favre got hammered 30 times too, during his only stint with Jets.

Then you know what happened with Sanchez. (26/27/39) People kept saying Sanchez held the ball too long and whatever. Ok. Here is the stats. Except last year, Sanchez fared better than both Favre and Pennington in the Sack department. (True, the OL was better than Pennington's days, I would assume - but Favre case you cannot really make a case about it.)

So... the question naturally leads to:

1. Jets OL - with Mangold and Ferguson up front - had better be a fucking joke.

2. Jets passing play design is a fucking joke - either the blocking scheme is a fucking joke, or relies on plays to develop in three days or whatever.

What is your guess? One guy fucking it up at the top, or all five guys down below collectively fucking things up consistently?

Interesting take #2:

No QB broke 7.0 YPC barrier under Schottenheimer's command. (Favre was at pedestrian 6.7 by the way. READ: By pedestrian, I mean BELOW AVERAGE) Is it because the QBs just cannot throw? Or is there something else involved?

Interesting take #3:

Pennington is +2 in TD/Int department. (17/16, 10/9) Other than injury-shortened (that is, less than half a season) seasons, he had near 1:1 ratio on TD/INT only once. (In that short season: he was +1 twice, and -1 twice, so collectively the ratio is at 1:1) Then twice in two years under Schottenheimer. At least in TD/INT ratio, Sanchez beats both Pennington and Favre combined. (Sanchez: +4, Pennington: +2, Favre: 0 at 22/22)




Refer to the stats above and tell me what you think. At the end of the day, production on the field never lies.

And Ravens raping Jets QBs was rather a regular protocol in Schottenheimer's offense - you cannot pin that on Sanchez.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

P.S. #1. This will be my last Schottenheimer related post in this thread. There is already another thread about it.

P.S. #2. I do not find it fair to do these analysis on my part while not getting anything remotely comparable to those I put up from SDF camp. I would sincerely request some cold, hard data to back up whatever you want to support. Without evidence, just who gives a fuck about whether you are right or wrong?



And then there's this...

The Tony Sparano/new-sheriff-in-town story already is getting a lot of play, but TE Dustin Keller made some interesting remarks Tuesday night at the annual United Way Gridiron Gala at the Waldorf Astoria in Manhattan.

Keller made no mention of former O.C. Brian Schottenheimer, but he observed that "guys are playing more attention to details now, more than ever." And to think, training camp hasn't even begun. The Jets are in the infancy stage of the season.

If a player makes a mental mistake, Sparano "is coming down on you," Keller said. "That’s how it’s going to be all season. I think he definitely runs a tighter ship than I've seen from anyone before. He’s not going to let guys slip up. That’s when problems arise. It’s going to continue. You can tell, it's not a one-day thing or an OTA thing. This thing is going to keep on going and going. I think we need it."





Dont hold your breath on the SDF.

[BeastBeach]

And then there's this...





Dont hold your breath on the SDF.

lol

This is ironic. My entire point was that your posts lacked anything of substance from actual factual data.

You quoting a poster who actually made valid points and can make a coherent argument just makes you look bad.

If I had known you were the type to piggyback somebody elses argument where yours lacked I wouldn't have bothered in the first place.

As for the article, all I see is more discipline. We all knew that was going to happen.

[nyjunc]

Zach, you don't take into account the circumstances when posting the #s. This cannot be ignored.

Chad Pennington:

was fresh off TWO surgeries on his throwing shoulder. The better #s to look at to be fair would be his brief 2005 which he greatly improved upon in his 2006 season.

In 2007 Chad got hurt week 1 and Kellen Clemens played most of the year and despite an awful OL & that injury(that forced us to get Woody & Faneca that offseason) Chad put up similar #s.

In 2008 Chad was HEALTHY, he went to a team after cap began that he was familiar w/ the OC having played under henning as a rookie. That was a huge advantage over what favre had to deal w/ in NY.

Brett Favre:

Came to us w/ about a month to go before the start of the season, no offseason work, no familiarity w/ the offensive system or players. W/ that he was putting up decent #s until late in the year when he tanked it. keep it mind this guy was busy helping detroit try to beat GB rather than spending all hs time in our playbook. He didn't want to be here but it was his only chance to play. He was in a new system for the first time since 1992.

In 2009 Brett WANTED to be in Minnesota to stick it to GB, he was going to play his old system something he was very comfortable doing. He did get to Minny late like he did w/ us but he knew that system as well as any player could. That was a HUGE difference.

Mark Sanchez:

only started 16 games in college, started from day 1 for us. Got new WR a month into the season and lost a starting WR who he was getting comfortable with. w/ that he had a good year for a rookie and played very well in our biggest games in January

2010: again has new WR missing first 4 games but improves to where he is a borderline top 10 guy(not by fantasy stats so don't botrher looking and telling me guys like Matt Cassell were better than him), he leads multiple late game comebacks through the air, again plays well in postseason(poor 1st half at Indy, rebounded and led GW drive in final minute) including bringing us back from 24-0 down at Pitt in the title game to give us a chance.

2011: has 3 of 4 NEW WRs w/ NO offseason program, OL is banged up and stinks. His #s improve across the board but they all stink late and now he can't play.

You can post #s all day long but you have to be fair and discuss the circumstances around those #s.

[Tony]

I see these comments as completely justified, to be honest. Sure, maybe it should have been kept in house, but he really didn't say anything that isn't true. If Sachez doesn't like the comments, well, he should not make bad decisions and should stop fumbling the ball.

[Wolf Brother]

Posted this on ESPN too. Damien Woody and many analysts are being way too diplomatic about this situation. They skirt around the icy issue: Mark Sanchez may never get a CHANCE to prove he's the guy if he has already been benched. The players already lost confidence in Mark and to say that a Coach criticizing Mark and praising Tebow is not a calculated objective towards making the switch (NOW) is a bit naive. Mark has been replaced. I will say it. I don't have to be diplomatic.

The Jets Brass is not gonna come right out and say it now but: NFL is a tough business. And what that means is, a team can move on from a player without notice despite fans or media believing that they should have loyalty or give "second chances" or because of past performance. A money a player makes or an extension he got does not change that either. Bledsoe got traded. Tebow got traded despite being paid big money as a 1st rounder. And the list goes on and on.

Look, if Tebow being traded from Denver should prove anything, its that a player is year-to-year and can be replaced at a moments notice regardless of what he's done in the past. There are too many football AND business reasons (marketing) to make the switch to Tebow ASAP. That's why I wish ESPN would take some chances on the icy issues rather than bang the gong of Sanchez having a legitimate chance to keep Tebow on the bench when in reality, Sanchez has none if he doesn't get to play. It may be just smoke right now that he is currently designated as the starter. Just saying.

[displacedfan]

Posted this on ESPN too. Damien Woody and many analysts are being way too diplomatic about this situation. They skirt around the icy issue: Mark Sanchez may never get a CHANCE to prove he's the guy if he has already been benched. The players already lost confidence in Mark and to say that a Coach criticizing Mark and praising Tebow is not a calculated objective towards making the switch (NOW) is a bit naive. Mark has been replaced. I will say it. I don't have to be diplomatic.

The Jets Brass is not gonna come right out and say it now but: NFL is a tough business. And what that means, a team can move on from a player without notice despite fans or media believing that they should have loyalty or give "second chances" or because of past performance.

Look, if Tebow being traded from Denver should prove anything, its that a player is year-to-year and can be replaced at a moments notice regardless of what he's done in the past. There are too many football AND business reasons (marketing) to make the switch to Tebow ASAP. That's why I wish ESPN would take some chances on the icy issues rather than bang the gong of Sanchez having a legitimate chance to keep Tebow on the bench when in reality, Sanchez has none.

I'm worried about this too. What I saw from Tebow was not enough to make be confident he can be a better starting QB then Mark Sanchez. Both their teams ended the season on a 3 game losing streak. I am much more confident in keeping Sanchez in there and letting him float or drown.

I am also afraid a lot of the move will be for PR reasons only. I still don't buy that the trade was football reasons only. I think there was a PR reason and it was one of the primary reasons.

Disagree that Sanchez has lost the players. What players has he lost?

[Zach]

Zach, you don't take into account the circumstances when posting the #s. This cannot be ignored.

Oh yeah. I do. All the time. Just you are talking wall that cannot comprehend a damn thing.



Chad Pennington:

was fresh off TWO surgeries on his throwing shoulder. The better #s to look at to be fair would be his brief 2005 which he greatly improved upon in his 2006 season.

And that's related to Schottenheimer's performance how? Schottenheimer wasn't even the OC during 2005. 2007 was such a disaster. Just what the hell are you talking about?

10/9 TD/INT ratio, with 6.8 YPA is NOT how you say GREATLY improved. (2006: 17/16, 6.9 YPA -> YPA even regressed.) Yeah. The COMPLETION RATIO went up. Does that warrant "GREAT IMPROVEMENT"? Improvement my ass. Let me burst your own fantasy bubble again. Pennington's sack ratio went up. From below 10% (30/48x) to flat 10% (26/260) during that span. I did not think it was Schottenheimer's fault, but if you are using that as Schottenheimer's competence, then this also has to come as Schottenheimer's deficiency.

There, I said it. You are nothing but a talking wall.

In 2007 Chad got hurt week 1 and Kellen Clemens played most of the year and despite an awful OL & that injury(that forced us to get Woody & Faneca that offseason) Chad put up similar #s.

And I even clearly mentioned the offensive fiasco in 2007 cannot be pinned down on Schottenheimer up there. READ the posting first.

In 2008 Chad was HEALTHY, he went to a team after cap began that he was familiar w/ the OC having played under henning as a rookie. That was a huge advantage over what favre had to deal w/ in NY.

Having new OC/QB coach isn't always the kind of disadvantage you make it to be. Or Testaverde would never had the kind of ascension he experienced in NY. In that regard, it becomes even much clearer that Schottenheimer cannot custom-tailor his game designs and game calls to suit the QB who needs to learn on the fly.


Brett Favre:

Came to us w/ about a month to go before the start of the season, no offseason work, no familiarity w/ the offensive system or players. W/ that he was putting up decent #s until late in the year when he tanked it. keep it mind this guy was busy helping detroit try to beat GB rather than spending all hs time in our playbook. He didn't want to be here but it was his only chance to play. He was in a new system for the first time since 1992.

In 2009 Brett WANTED to be in Minnesota to stick it to GB, he was going to play his old system something he was very comfortable doing. He did get to Minny late like he did w/ us but he knew that system as well as any player could. That was a HUGE difference.

But it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.

Out of the three QBs - Pennington/Favre/Sanchez - WHO KNEW THE SYSTEM BEFOREHAND? NOBODY. Everyone got a clean slate when it comes to getting acclimated to Schottenheimer's system. Sanchez was heavily handcuffed in his rookie year but that didn't stop him from getting mauled 26 times still. That is ungodly 7+% sack ratio.

Knowing some other system beforehand could have helped when they left the evil clutch that is Brian Schottenheimer. Regardless of that fact, no QB produced enough under his guidance. (No QB even produced a YPA that could be comparable to LEAGUE AVERAGE, for instance.) But then you are a talking wall - I do not see you comprehending this.


Mark Sanchez:

only started 16 games in college, started from day 1 for us. Got new WR a month into the season and lost a starting WR who he was getting comfortable with. w/ that he had a good year for a rookie and played very well in our biggest games in January

2010: again has new WR missing first 4 games but improves to where he is a borderline top 10 guy(not by fantasy stats so don't botrher looking and telling me guys like Matt Cassell were better than him), he leads multiple late game comebacks through the air, again plays well in postseason(poor 1st half at Indy, rebounded and led GW drive in final minute) including bringing us back from 24-0 down at Pitt in the title game to give us a chance.

2011: has 3 of 4 NEW WRs w/ NO offseason program, OL is banged up and stinks. His #s improve across the board but they all stink late and now he can't play.

You can post #s all day long but you have to be fair and discuss the circumstances around those #s.

1. I do not even care about that fantasy crap. When did I use that in my argument? Maybe in your own fantasy. Don't make stuff up. It makes you look bad.

2. That aside, Sanchez took his share of lick over the years too. Just like Favre and Pennington did under Schottenheimer's watch. For the record, Pennington was never sacked 30 times before OR after Schottenheimer. Only under Schottenheimer. Sure, even during that disaster season, Pennington still completed 65% of his passes, so if you want to point that out as Schottenheimer's crowning moment, you should also acknowledge that Schottenheimer's schemes are so deficient that it leaves a cerebral and seasoned vet like Pennington hanging high and dry as well. (Or Pennington plain sucked during that span or whatever. Either way you cannot have it both ways.)

[nyjunc]

Oh yeah. I do. All the time. Just you are talking wall that cannot comprehend a damn thing.


Can you translate this post to English please?

And that's related to Schottenheimer's performance how? Schottenheimer wasn't even the OC during 2005. 2007 was such a disaster. Just what the hell are you talking about?


you are all over the place and have no idea what you are even posting. So it's ok t post pre '-6 #s to bash Brian but not ok when you dig deeper and understand what was going on? ypu use his pre '05 #s to compare him in '06 & '07. 2005 he was coming off ONE shoulder surgery, in '06 he was coming off TWO. Comparing '05 to '06 is the fairer way to do things rather than '04 or '08 to '06/'07 but b/c it invalidates your theory you ignore it.

comp %: '05 59, '06 64.5
TDs to INTs: -1 to +1
YPA: 6.4 to 6.9
yds per game: 177 to 210
rating: 71 to 83

That's not greatly improving?


And I even clearly mentioned the offensive fiasco in 2007 cannot be pinned down on Schottenheimer up there. READ the posting first

where did you mention '07?


Having new OC/QB coach isn't always the kind of disadvantage you make it to be. Or Testaverde would never had the kind of ascension he experienced in NY. In that regard, it becomes even much clearer that Schottenheimer cannot custom-tailor his game designs and game calls to suit the QB who needs to learn on the fly.


You are going to cite Vinny? was Vinny in the same system for 16 years? did Vinny show up a month before the season? was Vinny annointed starter week 1? Did you noptice how Vinny did w/ a new OC in '00 and another new one in '01?


But it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in the grand scheme of things.

Out of the three QBs - Pennington/Favre/Sanchez - WHO KNEW THE SYSTEM BEFOREHAND? NOBODY. Everyone got a clean slate when it comes to getting acclimated to Schottenheimer's system. Sanchez was heavily handcuffed in his rookie year but that didn't stop him from getting mauled 26 times still. That is ungodly 7+% sack ratio.

Knowing some other system beforehand could have helped when they left the evil clutch that is Brian Schottenheimer. Regardless of that fact, no QB produced enough under his guidance. (No QB even produced a YPA that could be comparable to LEAGUE AVERAGE, for instance.) But then you are a talking wall - I do not see you comprehending this.



Chad knew it b/c he had played in it, he even still had his rookie playbook. Fvare- FIRST time changing system in 16 years.

Mark helped us reach 2 title games, how does that happen w/ an OC who is that bad? The greatest D's of all time still need help fromt heir O and quality QB play to win in January.



2. That aside, Sanchez took his share of lick over the years too. Just like Favre and Pennington did under Schottenheimer's watch. For the record, Pennington was never sacked 30 times before OR after Schottenheimer. Only under Schottenheimer. Sure, even during that disaster season, Pennington still completed 65% of his passes, so if you want to point that out as Schottenheimer's crowning moment, you should also acknowledge that Schottenheimer's schemes are so deficient that it leaves a cerebral and seasoned vet like Pennington hanging high and dry as well. (Or Pennington plain sucked during that span or whatever. Either way you cannot have it both ways.)


It's nice to just look at #s w/ no context. yep Chad was never sacked 30 times in a season except the 2006 season w/ BC as his OC. Sounds bad, right? Did you know he also had his career high in attempts that year?

2003: sacked once every 12 attempts
2006: sacked once every 16 attempts

was BC the OC in 2003?

[Royce Parker]

Posted this on ESPN too. Damien Woody and many analysts are being way too diplomatic about this situation. They skirt around the icy issue: Mark Sanchez may never get a CHANCE to prove he's the guy if he has already been benched. The players already lost confidence in Mark and to say that a Coach criticizing Mark and praising Tebow is not a calculated objective towards making the switch (NOW) is a bit naive. Mark has been replaced. I will say it. I don't have to be diplomatic.

The Jets Brass is not gonna come right out and say it now but: NFL is a tough business. And what that means is, a team can move on from a player without notice despite fans or media believing that they should have loyalty or give "second chances" or because of past performance. A money a player makes or an extension he got does not change that either. Bledsoe got traded. Tebow got traded despite being paid big money as a 1st rounder. And the list goes on and on.

Look, if Tebow being traded from Denver should prove anything, its that a player is year-to-year and can be replaced at a moments notice regardless of what he's done in the past. There are too many football AND business reasons (marketing) to make the switch to Tebow ASAP. That's why I wish ESPN would take some chances on the icy issues rather than bang the gong of Sanchez having a legitimate chance to keep Tebow on the bench when in reality, Sanchez has none if he doesn't get to play. It may be just smoke right now that he is currently designated as the starter. Just saying.

If the plan all along is to have Tebow replace Sanchez to start the season then this organization has officially gone insane. Everyone is up in arms about the fact that Mark can't complete 60% of his passes but Timmy can't even connect on 47%. I don't buy it. What Tebow did at the end of games last year was nothing short of miraculous but if not for Denver's defense there's no way they win those games. Isn't that the same thing Sanchez is criticized for? I don't see how starting Tebow would in any way shape or form be an upgrade to starting Sanchez, unless they go to a full-time option offense.

The Jets have made some boneheaded decisions in the past but c'mon. I think people are reading a little far into this.

[Biggs]

I see these comments as completely justified, to be honest. Sure, maybe it should have been kept in house, but he really didn't say anything that isn't true. If Sachez doesn't like the comments, well, he should not make bad decisions and should stop fumbling the ball.

I didn't like it when my puppy craped on the floor but I didn't tell me neighbor that my puppy sucks because he craps on the floor. I trained him to crap outside (on my neighbors lawn).

The problem isn't what he said, the problem is he is part of a coaching staff whose job it is to develop a young QB into a top NFL QB. He's showing a lack of professional discipline by talking publicly and at the same time publicly making an excuse for his own poor performance. The QB coach and the QB development are tied together.

[Big Blocker]

The reality is that in 2008 Penny was as healthy as he had been at any time in his career. In 06 he was still coming back from the shoulder surgeries on both February 4 and October 6, 2005. Those surgeries led Mangini to say there would be an open Qb competition in camp. Chad won it and went on under Schotty to win Comeback Player of the Year. Despite the criticism of Schotty, anyone who can remember and was paying attention at the time knew and remembers that Schotty developed a short passing attack to avoid the need for Chad to throw those downfield and out patterns, relying on the receivers to get yac.

Chad's fragility in the intervening year of 2007 was because of a high ankle sprain. The Jets also were dealing with the disastrous effort to replace Pete Kendall with Clarke and Bender. Faneca coming to the team in 08 was not as significant as signing Favre, but imo it was right behind that, and likely Chad would have had a much better year than in 07 had he stayed. At the time and I am still of the opinion it was the right move to get Favre, since Chad was an accident waiting to happen, as eventually did. But it did not happen in 08, and Miami benefitted.

Still it is worth noting in comparing 06 to 08 that they were very different situations healthwise for Chad. The ankle sprain in 07 merely required rest, and did not lead to a surgery. 06 saw Chad returning after two shoulder surgeries the year before. It is without question that Chad was healthier in 08 than in 06. To instead blame some marginal difference in stats in those years on Schotty is a huge reach. Chad was still Comeback Player of the Year under Schotty, and the Jets went 10-6.

Also let's not forget that Chad crapped the bed in their playoff loss against the Ravens, which was an awful performance.

The unfair rap Schotty Haters put on Favre's time with the Jets completely ignores the effect of his torn bicep. In the first eleven games the Jets were 8-3, including wins over previously undefeated Tennessee, and that glorious win over the Pats. Favre even had is personal single game best of 6 TD's against the Cards that year. But after the injury he threw 8 Ints against only two TD's. No wonder Schotty Haters choose to totally misrepresent that year by lumping in the post injured numbers with the pre injury ones.

And of course Schotty Haters ignore that he took a rookie Qb to the AFC Champ Game, repeating the next year. That was not an accomplishment? When was the previous time a rookie Qb went to the Champ Game? Rothlisberger in 04. Anybody else?

Mark Sanchez is no Ben Rothlisberger.

[displacedfan]

If the plan all along is to have Tebow replace Sanchez to start the season then this organization has officially gone insane. Everyone is up in arms about the fact that Mark can't complete 60% of his passes but Timmy can't even connect on 47%. I don't buy it. What Tebow did at the end of games last year was nothing short of miraculous but if not for Denver's defense there's no way they win those games. Isn't that the same thing Sanchez is criticized for? I don't see how starting Tebow would in any way shape or form be an upgrade to starting Sanchez, unless they go to a full-time option offense.

The Jets have made some boneheaded decisions in the past but c'mon. I think people are reading a little far into this.

Sanchez was more miraculous in 10 in my opinion. The Houston was one of the most impressive comebacks I have seen. I think Sanchez has 5 or 6 4th quarter comeback wins that year.

[Zach]

Despite the criticism of Schotty, anyone who can remember and was paying attention at the time knew and remembers that Schotty developed a short passing attack to avoid the need for Chad to throw those downfield and out patterns, relying on the receivers to get yac.

This is bordering among delusion, lunacy and stupidity.

1. Schottenheimer even FORCED out pattern when it was more than evident that Pennington didn't have the arm strength to make that throw. Just what are you talking about?

2. The design was easily recognizable even for rookie DBs. (Refer to Aaron Ross interview after his career-first pick 6.)

3. Also the passing play designs left the WRs hanging high and dry. (Coles almost got decapitated by Zach Thomas in one of the Dolphags game - but then I see you have selective memory.)

[Zach]

Dear junc.

1. The whole thing started because someone asked the performance comparison between Sanchez and other QBs under Schottenheimer. - for which, I duly delivered. You trying to bring in 2005 stats is like WTF. Grow a brain. Or you will stay being the talking wall that you are.

2. Did I mention Pennington's 2005 stats are irrelevant in this discussion? If I didn't, THEY ARE IRRELEVANT. Grow a brain.

3. I am fed up with a few things here. First is talking to a talking wall like yourself, and the other is putting up with arguments that have no data to support the claim - that's precisely what it is like to chase a ghost. No wonder SDF can never fail - because they either don't listen, or they don't present anything worth a damn.

[nyjunc]

Dear junc.

1. The whole thing started because someone asked the performance comparison between Sanchez and other QBs under Schottenheimer. - for which, I duly delivered. You trying to bring in 2005 stats is like WTF. Grow a brain. Or you will stay being the talking wall that you are.

2. Did I mention Pennington's 2005 stats are irrelevant in this discussion? If I didn't, THEY ARE IRRELEVANT. Grow a brain.

3. I am fed up with a few things here. First is talking to a talking wall like yourself, and the other is putting up with arguments that have no data to support the claim - that's precisely what it is like to chase a ghost. No wonder SDF can never fail - because they either don't listen, or they don't present anything worth a damn.

I don't care about the reasoning for it, you posted the #s and you expect people to ignore the circumstances and to focu on on the good w/o Brian and the bad w/ him which isn't fair. If you continue to do that I will continue to mention so others can be better informed.

What data supports your argument? you posted Chad's career stats w/o the circumstances around them. Your argument looks good at face value w/ the nice graphic w/ all that stats that would wow those that don't know any better but it's all fluff w/ nothing behind it.

grow a brain? are we 5 years old?

[Biggs]

This is bordering among delusion, lunacy and stupidity.

1. Schottenheimer even FORCED out pattern when it was more than evident that Pennington didn't have the arm strength to make that throw. Just what are you talking about?

2. The design was easily recognizable even for rookie DBs. (Refer to Aaron Ross interview after his career-first pick 6.)

3. Also the passing play designs left the WRs hanging high and dry. (Coles almost got decapitated by Zach Thomas in one of the Dolphags game - but then I see you have selective memory.)

It's hard to blame that on Shotty. I found myself actually shocked at how good our O was in 06 with what was at best bottom of the league talent. There were times after the first few games where it was so obvious Pennington couldn't throw on out that we almost had to do it to get the D off of us.

Guys were going to get killed either way that year but you can't say to an OC we have crap talent, a QB with no arm so we have to focus everything between the tackles 10 yards out. As teams saw tape they took things away, we didn't have the weapons to expand the field. Hard to make a 5 star meal out of pot roast.

I thought based on personal it was a miracle we made the playoffs in 06. In 08 before Favre tanked with his injured arm we arguably had the best team in the AFC playing at the highest level in the division.

Tape is a great equalizer and maybe Shotty is a creative guy who can't adjust once the D's catch up? I have no issue with letting him go, I'm a results guy and clearly we broke down badly. I can see where Mark wasn't comfortable, whether or not that's the OC or Mark time will tell.

[nyjunc]

This is bordering among delusion, lunacy and stupidity.

1. Schottenheimer even FORCED out pattern when it was more than evident that Pennington didn't have the arm strength to make that throw. Just what are you talking about?

2. The design was easily recognizable even for rookie DBs. (Refer to Aaron Ross interview after his career-first pick 6.)

3. Also the passing play designs left the WRs hanging high and dry. (Coles almost got decapitated by Zach Thomas in one of the Dolphags game - but then I see you have selective memory.)

Yet we won 10 games and made the playoffs. Amazing how that worked out.


so the INts were the fault of the OC not the QB, WR, OL, etc... it was all the OC?

Coles would routinely jump for balls that he didn't have to, look back at his career and you will see this. You are so uniformed it's not funny and I wouldn't mention it if you didn't attack me. Blaming the OC on high throws? you can't make this stuff up.

[LAJet]

First off, Cavanaugh should have kept his comments out of the media. Secondly, I'm not convinced he is not as much part of the problem as Shotty. He has shown us nothing yet. I lost whatever little respect I had for him after his idiotic comments. Talk about poor decisions in the play calling while you are at it Cavanaugh.
We should have gotten rid of him this year.
Now to the bigger problem, Tebow's contributions will dwarf by the amount of unnecessary shit the team will have to go through with the media and yes our money hungry owner.
If Sanchez tanks, and I hope like hell he does not, and the CS is forced to start Tebow, we would have set our destiny once again and will continue to be less than an average team, schooled by the likes of NE for the foreseeable future..
Tebow was a distraction we did not need, and he will never be the top caliber QB we need to succeed. Give Sanchez all the support he needs and stick with him....that is the only chance we got.

[Wolf Brother]

If the plan all along is to have Tebow replace Sanchez to start the season then this organization has officially gone insane. Everyone is up in arms about the fact that Mark can't complete 60% of his passes but Timmy can't even connect on 47%. I don't buy it. What Tebow did at the end of games last year was nothing short of miraculous but if not for Denver's defense there's no way they win those games. Isn't that the same thing Sanchez is criticized for? I don't see how starting Tebow would in any way shape or form be an upgrade to starting Sanchez, unless they go to a full-time option offense.

The Jets have made some boneheaded decisions in the past but c'mon. I think people are reading a little far into this.
What you say may be what YOU think, but clearly the Jet's Brass have behind the scenes made some decisions and have a viewpoint that may be different than yours. That's my point. Just like an employer you work for that highers your replacement: it doesn't matter how many business deals you've closed in the past or what-not if they have decided to move on, right? They may see something in the other guy that even YOU don't see! If the Jets believe that they can put Tebow in a position to succeed and believe in him, those stats you bring up are like wind. For instance: YOU believe that the Denver Defense helped Tebow win, right? But that's an opinion that may not be shared by the Jets. And the Jets have an even better defense than Denver ... and you start to connect the dots. All things even, Tebow beat Sanchez head to head.

So yeah, it doesn't take a big leap to think that a move has been made "internally" by the Jets towards a new direction. Internally, a move for Tebow means you want him to play. And they acknowledged that he WILL play. Just saying. That's why taking anything at face value is worthless if you're guaranteeing playing time for a back-up. He's not a back-up.

[Zach]

It's hard to blame that on Shotty. I found myself actually shocked at how good our O was in 06 with what was at best bottom of the league talent. There were times after the first few games where it was so obvious Pennington couldn't throw on out that we almost had to do it to get the D off of us.

If you want to quote me - fine. Don't take the whole thing out of context. Big Blocker said something like: arm-strength throws like OUT were discarded (wrong) and Chad was still taking his share of shots downfield as the situation required it. (Yeah. Again, wrong on his account.) If you will, quote what Big Blocker had to say before as well.

Guys were going to get killed either way that year but you can't say to an OC we have crap talent, a QB with no arm so we have to focus everything between the tackles 10 yards out. As teams saw tape they took things away, we didn't have the weapons to expand the field. Hard to make a 5 star meal out of pot roast.

What if I tell you this was the first year Chad had his first red-zone INT in his entire career?

And yeah. I understand it was more of a rebuilding year, with crap talent all over the roster. (Spearheaded by Dslob, of all people.) Does that mean Schottenheimer is exempt from the blame?

I thought based on personal it was a miracle we made the playoffs in 06. In 08 before Favre tanked with his injured arm we arguably had the best team in the AFC playing at the highest level in the division.

Tape is a great equalizer and maybe Shotty is a creative guy who can't adjust once the D's catch up? I have no issue with letting him go, I'm a results guy and clearly we broke down badly. I can see where Mark wasn't comfortable, whether or not that's the OC or Mark time will tell.

1. I agree that Jets winning 10 that year was a miracle.

2. That said, the production wasn't 10-win quality. That means Jets caught a lot of lucky breaks all over.

3. Great innovative, creative minds find ways to efficiently attack the opposing defense. That is not what Schottenheimer is known for.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Junc//I even provided why I started the whole thing. (Someone wanted a performance comparison among QBs under Schottenheimer's guidance.) If you don't care about that, just why bother posting? If you are taking issue with that, you should talk to THAT PERSON. (Man, do I have to tell you these little things too?)

Ok. I am learning my lessons today - talking to a wall only leads to mental disorder. Check.

[nyjunc]

If you want to quote me - fine. Don't take the whole thing out of context. Big Blocker said something like: arm-strength throws like OUT were discarded (wrong) and Chad was still taking his share of shots downfield as the situation required it. (Yeah. Again, wrong on his account.) If you will, quote what Big Blocker had to say before as well.



What if I tell you this was the first year Chad had his first red-zone INT in his entire career?

And yeah. I understand it was more of a rebuilding year, with crap talent all over the roster. (Spearheaded by Dslob, of all people.) Does that mean Schottenheimer is exempt from the blame?



1. I agree that Jets winning 10 that year was a miracle.

2. That said, the production wasn't 10-win quality. That means Jets caught a lot of lucky breaks all over.

3. Great innovative, creative minds find ways to efficiently attack the opposing defense. That is not what Schottenheimer is known for.

----------------------------------------------------------------

Junc//I even provided why I started the whole thing. (Someone wanted a performance comparison among QBs under Schottenheimer's guidance.) If you don't care about that, just why bother posting? If you are taking issue with that, you should talk to THAT PERSON. (Man, do I have to tell you these little things too?)

Ok. I am learning my lessons today - talking to a wall only leads to mental disorder. Check.

again, it's not as simple as putting up a chart for QBs w/ him and w/o him. There were major circumstances invovled, if you want to ignore that go ahead but those #s only tell a small part of the story.

[Zach]

First off, Cavanaugh should have kept his comments out of the media. Secondly, I'm not convinced he is not as much part of the problem as Shotty. He has shown us nothing yet. I lost whatever little respect I had for him after his idiotic comments. Talk about poor decisions in the play calling while you are at it Cavanaugh. We should have gotten rid of him this year.

Thanks!!!!! Finally back to the weasel that is Matt Cavanaugh...

Not really. After the comeback win against Houston two years ago, Cav was seen chewing out Sanchez after the game winning TD. Great timing, and just fantastic stuff, I tell ya. I wanted this weasel gone for a reason.


Now to the bigger problem, Tebow's contributions will dwarf by the amount of unnecessary shit the team will have to go through with the media and yes our money hungry owner.
If Sanchez tanks, and I hope like hell he does not, and the CS is forced to start Tebow, we would have set our destiny once again and will continue to be less than an average team, schooled by the likes of NE for the foreseeable future..
Tebow was a distraction we did not need, and he will never be the top caliber QB we need to succeed. Give Sanchez all the support he needs and stick with him....that is the only chance we got.

I don't know if Sanchez is that top calibre signal caller, but Tebow is definitely not that. He is white Michael Vick, only with terrible throwing mechanic. Lacks brain, cannot throw accurately and has to RUN to create viable threat.

And Jets could have drafted Zebrie Sanders with that 4th rounder. That is still pissing me off.

[Zach]

again, it's not as simple as putting up a chart for QBs w/ him and w/o him. There were major circumstances invovled, if you want to ignore that go ahead but those #s only tell a small part of the story.

You just don't get it, do you?

It's not about Pennington's (or Favre's) performance under different coordinators. QBs w/ him and w/o him is NOT EVEN RELEVANT here. That's NOT what I am talking about, that's not even the point, and I didn't bother with that for a reason. For that reason I gave out the numbers, and the RELEVANT LEAGUE AVERAGE (not the career average of the said veteran, mind you!) LISTEN, GOD DAMN IT! (But then I am telling the wall to listen - fuck me.)

It's PERFORMANCE COMPARISON under Schottenheimer. Why are you trying to bring in unnecessary external factors?

[Biggs]

=Zach;2495198]If you want to quote me - fine. Don't take the whole thing out of context. Big Blocker said something like: arm-strength throws like OUT were discarded (wrong) and Chad was still taking his share of shots downfield as the situation required it. (Yeah. Again, wrong on his account.) If you will, quote what Big Blocker had to say before as well.

I like the discussion, didn't mean to pick on you. Overall I think Shotty and Mangini did a good job in 06 based on my impression that the team outproduced it's talent on both sides of the ball.

What if I tell you this was the first year Chad had his first red-zone INT in his entire career?

Doesn't mean that much to me one way or another.

And yeah. I understand it was more of a rebuilding year, with crap talent all over the roster. (Spearheaded by Dslob, of all people.) Does that mean Schottenheimer is exempt from the blame?

I don't blame him for getting better overall results than I expected based on the talent and the fact that it was a rebuild. I credit him for getting better production than I expected.

I can look at the stats in the rear view mirror and say not very good. But when I look at the team we fielded and the results in the rear view mirror I have a very different impression.

Again I'm not defending Shotty, I just don't take it for granted that dumping him solves our issues on the field.

[Wolf Brother]

I like the discussion, didn't mean to pick on you. Overall I think Shotty and Mangini did a good job in 06 based on my impression that the team outproduced it's talent on both sides of the ball.



Doesn't mean that much to me one way or another.



I don't blame him for getting better overall results than I expected based on the talent and the fact that it was a rebuild. I credit him for getting better production than I expected.

I can look at the stats in the rear view mirror and say not very good. But when I look at the team we fielded and the results in the rear view mirror I have a very different impression.

Again I'm not defending Shotty, I just don't take it for granted that dumping him solves our issues on the field.I would argue that the team allowed Brian and Mark to sling the ball more against Rex's core principles in order to give Mark a legitimate shot to show he could handle that kind of play, and he imploded. Now, if anything, Rex feels like his core principle (run the ball, play defense, and pass when necessary) were reinforced. Brian falls on the sword for it, now you bring in Saprano (a run-first to the extreme coach) and Tim Tebow (a run-first QB) and you are left with the pieces of Mark Sanchez having far less relevance. You tried to make him the Elite Passer with more passes than Runs, and you get 26 turnovers, a high-paid receiver benched in the final game, and total locker room turmoil. Those factors were all fact and acknowledged. So talking about Shotty is like wind at this point. He's gone. Its a new approach, and Mark, now he's getting called out for Last Year. That's a bad sign for Mark. Because that sounds like the past to me. Just my 2 cents.

[Biggs]

I would argue that the team allowed Brian and Mark to sling the ball more against Rex's core principles in order to give Mark a legitimate shot to show he could handle that kind of play, and he imploded. Now, if anything, Rex feels like his core principle (run the ball, play defense, and pass when necessary) were reinforced. Brian falls on the sword for it, now you bring in Saprano (a run-first to the extreme coach) and Tim Tebow (a run-first QB) and you are left with the pieces of Mark Sanchez having far less relevance. You tried to make him the Elite Passer with more passes than Runs, and you get 26 turnovers, a high-paid receiver benched in the final game, and total locker room turmoil. Those factors were all fact and acknowledged. So talking about Shotty is like wind at this point. He's gone. Its a new approach, and Mark, now he's getting called out for Last Year. That's a bad sign for Mark. Because that sounds like the past to me. Just my 2 cents.

I think the team passed the ball more because Greene couldn't stay on the field and there was little confidence in anyone else with any ability in the run game.

The Jets have drafted 3 running backs 3 years in a row and the only back that could stay on the field that the coaching staff had any confidence in to not put the ball on the turf was a washed up Tomlinson.

[Wolf Brother]

I think the team passed the ball more because Greene couldn't stay on the field and there was little confidence in anyone else with any ability in the run game.

The Jets have drafted 3 running backs 3 years in a row and the only back that could stay on the field that the coaching staff had any confidence in to not put the ball on the turf was a washed up Tomlinson.

That may have been the case, but the point is that you still allowed Mark to sling it around the yard like a Brady, Manning, or Brees and he imploded. I would argue had Mark taken care of business last year against Denver and Miami, we're not having this discussion about Tebow or Shotty being gone. And because of that, I'd also argue that I'd believe that Mark is the answer in the mind of the Jet's Brass had they never brought in Tebow. If they had brought in a normal back-up to push him, like Matt Flynn or David Garrad, or even Chad Heinne, then sure, Mark has a legitimate shot to out perform and show he's the guy. Bringing in any player besides Tebow, I'd argue that you'd have a strong case. But Tebow? You're changing philosophy 100% you do that, and that makes Mark the odd man out. Just my 2 cents.

[Jetaho]

Tebow doesn't minimize Marks importance. The Jets aren't going to sniff a SB unless Mark becomes a very good QB and Soprano can teach and run a pro passing O against top defensive teams.

Tim Tebow might be a gimmick to back us into the playoffs if Mark Sucks. He ain't coming close to taking us on a run through the playoffs. The more Tebow plays the more likely Tanny and Rex are gone. They can all distance themselves from Mark but at the end of the day Sanchez has to throw the ball and throw it well for the Jets to make a serious run at a SB. He can do it and the team can do it but not by talking about it or planing to do it a different way.

Good post. That sums up our current situation very well.

[nyjunc]

You just don't get it, do you?

It's not about Pennington's (or Favre's) performance under different coordinators. QBs w/ him and w/o him is NOT EVEN RELEVANT here. That's NOT what I am talking about, that's not even the point, and I didn't bother with that for a reason. For that reason I gave out the numbers, and the RELEVANT LEAGUE AVERAGE (not the career average of the said veteran, mind you!) LISTEN, GOD DAMN IT! (But then I am telling the wall to listen - fuck me.)

It's PERFORMANCE COMPARISON under Schottenheimer. Why are you trying to bring in unnecessary external factors?

I am discussing everything w/o leaving key tidbits of info out like you have done.

[Zach]

I am discussing everything w/o leaving key tidbits of info out like you have done.

No. You are bringing in unnecessary bullshits just for the sake of saying what you want to say. You do not contribute in any meaningful way whatsoever. (Is that how you make yourself feel relevant?)

[Wolf Brother]

Ftr I don't know what will happen this coming season. None of us do. It's all speculation at this point. No one has a crystal ball, and I hope I have and can retain a level of humility about my own forecast. I certainly hope my pessimism turns out to be unwarranted, because otherwise it will be a long and ugly season, at least on O. And there is some reason to think the D will keep this team in many games, before I proceed to your post.

But I fear this coming season is going to be a shit storm. Hunter is still at RT. VD is still at best in the "not yet a clear bust" category. The Jets still have a not every down back as their #1 RB and no suitable changeup. Keller is not well suited for the type of O they at least say they want to run. And the likely #2 wideout, maybe not on Opening Day but he better be out there soon after that, is very green. Yeah, there's a core of Mangold, Ferguson and Holmes who are above average players, and Kerley may join them as the slot receiver.

But it's not a solid group.

Add Sanchez, particularly last year's Sanchez, the one who did not improve except in some marginal stat categories, who turned the ball over way too much, who did not lead the team, who was sacked far too often, who did not stretch the field, and it does not inspire confidence, to be sure.

But anyone thinking Tebow will improve the performance is crazy. Until we see otherwise, counting on that to happen, whether as a change up during games Sanchez plays or as his replacement, is either Tebot Fantasy or pure homerism.

The last time we saw the #3 Qb in the game for an extended period was when Tanny stupidly brought in the even more fragile Fielder as Penny's backup. Both went down in the same game, and a totally unprepared Bollinger was inserted. I hope they pay more attention to McElroy this pre-season, since there's at least as much chance he gets in there as there was for the #3 at the start of the ill fated 2005 season.I would argue that Mark Sanchez is a poor man's Chad Pennington since Chad has better stats when healthy and was a far better leader. He also had success going to another team (Miami) and was the comeback player of the year before injuries took their toll: so regardless of the coach, he found success, while Mark has been coddled and spoon-fed placating coaching and shielding from teammate's criticism and looking a Cav's comments, even shielding from effective coaching.

[nyjunc]

No. You are bringing in unnecessary bullshits just for the sake of saying what you want to say. You do not contribute in any meaningful way whatsoever. (Is that how you make yourself feel relevant?)

You can keep hurling the childish insults while pretending to know what you are talking about. I am sorry I hurt your feelings by actually bringing facts to the dicussion. Now back to posting stats w/ no context, you may have others fooled a bit.

[Zach]

You can keep hurling the childish insults while pretending to know what you are talking about. I am sorry I hurt your feelings by actually bringing facts to the dicussion. Now back to posting stats w/ no context, you may have others fooled a bit.

So human wall does exist in this day and age. Lesson taken.

[nyjunc]

So human wall does exist in this day and age. Lesson taken.

you are excellent at hurling childish insults, I wis you'd spend more time learning the game so you don't just post stats w/o context.

[Zach]

you are excellent at hurling childish insults, I wis you'd spend more time learning the game so you don't just post stats w/o context.

I didn't hurl insult. I just described what I have seen without adding any flavor.

If it makes you feel any better, you are excellent at ignoring whatever is said and screaming out whatever you have on your mind. That is the classic definition of human wall. No reason, no logic, just screaming what you want to spew out.

[Demosthenes9]

That may have been the case, but the point is that you still allowed Mark to sling it around the yard like a Brady, Manning, or Brees and he imploded. I would argue had Mark taken care of business last year against Denver and Miami, we're not having this discussion about Tebow or Shotty being gone. And because of that, I'd also argue that I'd believe that Mark is the answer in the mind of the Jet's Brass had they never brought in Tebow. If they had brought in a normal back-up to push him, like Matt Flynn or David Garrad, or even Chad Heinne, then sure, Mark has a legitimate shot to out perform and show he's the guy. Bringing in any player besides Tebow, I'd argue that you'd have a strong case. But Tebow? You're changing philosophy 100% you do that, and that makes Mark the odd man out. Just my 2 cents.

have to disagree. If the Jets brought in Matt Flynn, with the price tag he commanded and the game he had last year, he'd be an immediate threat to Sanchez and there definitely would be a QB controversy as well as a competition for the starting job.

Tebow, at least looking at how he passed last year, was a "safe" option with a ton of upside. He's good enough to pressure Sanchez to some degree, but not enough to really threaten him.

In short, I believe the thought is that Tebow would push Sanchez and make him better, without straight up challenging him.

Added bonus would be the "wildcat" wrinkle and what Tebow's presence does to opposing defenses.

[nyjunc]

I didn't hurl insult. I just described what I have seen without adding any flavor.

If it makes you feel any better, you are excellent at ignoring whatever is said and screaming out whatever you have on your mind. That is the classic definition of human wall. No reason, no logic, just screaming what you want to spew out.

I don't ignore anything, you posted stats w/o context intended to make our former OC look bad w/o presenting all the facts. Where was the logic in posting stats w/ nothing else? But it makes you feel like you contributed even though you just skewed reality.

Instead of moving on you keep harping on it while looking worse and worse in the process.

Please tell me again how Vinny succeeding in 1998 was just like Favre in 2008 and also plase post that misleading sack stat.

I notice you never respond to any points but instead just attack me, I wonder why that is?

[Wolf Brother]

have to disagree. If the Jets brought in Matt Flynn, with the price tag he commanded and the game he had last year, he'd be an immediate threat to Sanchez and there definitely would be a QB controversy as well as a competition for the starting job.

Tebow, at least looking at how he passed last year, was a "safe" option with a ton of upside. He's good enough to pressure Sanchez to some degree, but not enough to really threaten him.

In short, I believe the thought is that Tebow would push Sanchez and make him better, without straight up challenging him.

Added bonus would be the "wildcat" wrinkle and what Tebow's presence does to opposing defenses.
As far as Tebow, that's the company line until otherwise, although like I indicated above, he can easily become a very real replacement for Sanchez and would not be a total shock if that happened or as far as the internal discussion, already is slated to become the starter. Also, my original point still stands since Matt Flynn is not yet the clear-cut starter in Seattle since they have Jackson and now Russel Wilson in the mix and since he doesn't have the following that Tebow has, he would not be as large as a controversy as bringing in Tebow. Flynn's contract means that they can cut him before the season starts, and he probably loses out on the majority of the money?

[Big Blocker]

If you want to quote me - fine. Don't take the whole thing out of context. Big Blocker said something like: arm-strength throws like OUT were discarded (wrong) and Chad was still taking his share of shots downfield as the situation required it. (Yeah. Again, wrong on his account.) If you will, quote what Big Blocker had to say before as well.



Heh.. "Something like" - not very something. Here is what i said:

"Schotty developed a short passing attack to avoid the need for Chad to throw those downfield and out patterns, relying on the receivers to get yac."

AVOID THE NEED here did not mean that situations would never develop that would in fact require that the occasional downfield or out pass be thrown, since as we all know who follow football, literally taking those plays completely out of an offense gives the D a great benefit and weapon. What I said and should have been apparent is that the short passing attack Schotty developed avoided emphasis on Chad's weaknesses. I never said what you claim I said.

It is beyond dispute that the Jet passing attack in 06 was not based on stretching the field or on out patterns. Schotty's offense was successful and tailored to Chad's strengths and weaknesses.

That about covers it.

[Big Blocker]

I think the team passed the ball more because Greene couldn't stay on the field and there was little confidence in anyone else with any ability in the run game.

The Jets have drafted 3 running backs 3 years in a row and the only back that could stay on the field that the coaching staff had any confidence in to not put the ball on the turf was a washed up Tomlinson.

another point the Schotty Haters ignore, and one I think Ryan has to be concerned about going forward this year. The fact of the matter is as far as RB production and options that the major difference between last year and this coming one is that LT will be gone. That's it.

Ground and Pound. Sure.

[Demosthenes9]

As far as Tebow, that's the company line until otherwise, although like I indicated above, he can easily become a very real replacement for Sanchez and would not be a total shock if that happened or as far as the internal discussion, already is slated to become the starter. Also, my original point still stands since Matt Flynn is not yet the clear-cut starter in Seattle since they have Jackson and now Russel Wilson in the mix and since he doesn't have the following that Tebow has, he would not be as large as a controversy as bringing in Tebow. Flynn's contract means that they can cut him before the season starts, and he probably loses out on the majority of the money?

According to Rotoworld, Flynn's contract contains $10 mil guaranteed with $6 mil of that being a signing bonus.

To me, that's expected "starter" money. If Wilson beats him out, then someone's head will probably roll as Wilson was a 3rd round draft pick, which isn't where teams normally troll for starting QBs.

[Wolf Brother]

According to Rotoworld, Flynn's contract contains $10 mil guaranteed with $6 mil of that being a signing bonus.

To me, that's expected "starter" money. If Wilson beats him out, then someone's head will probably roll as Wilson was a 3rd round draft pick, which isn't where teams normally troll for starting QBs.
Unlikely, since Pete Carroll is one of the top 5 or 6 highest paid coaches in the league and has all authority to make whatever choice that he wants. This is the coach that brought in Charlie Whitehurst and Tavarus Jackson AND drafted Russell Wilson. Pretty sure if he says its a QB competition and the best man wins, that the contract is only a small part. Especially since, Jackson has the edge on comfort level with the system and Flynn and Wilson have to learn it. My main point was that bringing in Flynn would have been less of a distraction for Mark Sanchez (Since he has an actual track record) then Tebow who has both a huge following AND won a playoff game last year.

[Demosthenes9]

Unlikely, since Pete Carroll is one of the top 5 or 6 highest paid coaches in the league and has all authority to make whatever choice that he wants. This is the coach that brought in Charlie Whitehurst and Tavarus Jackson AND drafted Russell Wilson. Pretty sure if he says its a QB competition and the best man wins, that the contract is only a small part. Especially since, Jackson has the edge on comfort level with the system and Flynn and Wilson have to learn it. My main point was that bringing in Flynn would have been less of a distraction for Mark Sanchez (Since he has an actual track record) then Tebow who has both a huge following AND won a playoff game last year.

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with you. :) As you implied, Carroll is pretty safe regardless, but if Flynn loses the starting gig, someone's head definitely will roll. Might be some scout or other person who might have pushed/pumped Flynn.

And I still disagree with your overall view of Flynn. He was the hottest/best FA QB available (until Manning got released) and teams that were interested in him were teams that were looking for a starting QB.

There were other QBs out there that would have served the role you are talking about. Henne and Quinn both come to mind. Flynn was seen as being in a different class and it definitely would have been an instant QB controversy if the Jets had signed him.

[Wolf Brother]

I understand what you are saying, I just disagree with you. :) As you implied, Carroll is pretty safe regardless, but if Flynn loses the starting gig, someone's head definitely will roll. Might be some scout or other person who might have pushed/pumped Flynn.

And I still disagree with your overall view of Flynn. He was the hottest/best FA QB available (until Manning got released) and teams that were interested in him were teams that were looking for a starting QB.

There were other QBs out there that would have served the role you are talking about. Henne and Quinn both come to mind. Flynn was seen as being in a different class and it definitely would have been an instant QB controversy if the Jets had signed him.I hear you. I just don't view Flynn as a guaranteed starter anywhere. If Seattle thought he was, why draft Russel Wilson when you just signed Flynn? And you wouldn't sign Flynn if you were the Jets because he'd come at a premium. So you convinced me. But still, to bring in Tebow when you could have gotten a true back-up. That's what I was trying to say, rather than a player that WAS a starting QB on a winning team last year. You know? Logically.

[Big Blocker]

I hear you. I just don't view Flynn as a guaranteed starter anywhere. If Seattle thought he was, why draft Russel Wilson when you just signed Flynn? And you wouldn't sign Flynn if you were the Jets because he'd come at a premium. So you convinced me. But still, to bring in Tebow when you could have gotten a true back-up. That's what I was trying to say, rather than a player that WAS a starting QB on a winning team last year. You know? Logically.

As someone who is hardly a Sanchez Fan, his contract situation and there being enough uncertainty about whether he really will fail in the NFL made a move to spend that kind of money to get someone like Flynn, hardly a proven commodity, a bad one for the Jets. The logic of the Jet situation was to use Sanchez's fourth year to hopefully isolate the variable, give him one more year with at least sufficient support to get it done, and not pull away just a bit too soon. I may have substantial doubts about whether it really was too soon to make a judgment about him. I fear we have seen enough to know he will never develop up to a sufficiently acceptable level. But I made up my own mind to accept the reality, partly based on his guaranteed contract and the cap hit, to give him one more year.

But... the logic of that approach has been totally undermined by bringing in Tebow. Stanton was a true backup. The Jets had him and they were set going into next season.

Now it's a case of WTF?

[Demosthenes9]

I hear you. I just don't view Flynn as a guaranteed starter anywhere. If Seattle thought he was, why draft Russel Wilson when you just signed Flynn? And you wouldn't sign Flynn if you were the Jets because he'd come at a premium. So you convinced me. But still, to bring in Tebow when you could have gotten a true back-up. That's what I was trying to say, rather than a player that WAS a starting QB on a winning team last year. You know? Logically.

Why sign Wilson ? The question would make sense if Wilson was a first round pick or a high second rounder, but he was a third. Sign him to be the backup to develop behind Flynn. Wallace would be the "vet" to mentor Flynn.

The only way I would have signed Flynn for that kind of money was if I was in the market for a starting QB. If I just wanted a backup QB, there were plenty of other options available and they came with smaller price tags.

As it is, the only reason there is even talk about Wilson competing for the starting job is because he had a really good rookie mini camp.

As for bringing in Tebow, again, Tebow is value in that he will be a good backup this year, AND he also brings other things to the team. His intangibles will help in the locker room AND he can do things in the WC that most other people can't. i.e. he serves multiple roles, whereas someone like Stanton would merely stand on the sidelines waiting in case Sanchez got injured.

[Demosthenes9]

As someone who is hardly a Sanchez Fan, his contract situation and there being enough uncertainty about whether he really will fail in the NFL made a move to spend that kind of money to get someone like Flynn, hardly a proven commodity, a bad one for the Jets. The logic of the Jet situation was to use Sanchez's fourth year to hopefully isolate the variable, give him one more year with at least sufficient support to get it done, and not pull away just a bit too soon. I may have substantial doubts about whether it really was too soon to make a judgment about him. I fear we have seen enough to know he will never develop up to a sufficiently acceptable level. But I made up my own mind to accept the reality, partly based on his guaranteed contract and the cap hit, to give him one more year.

But... the logic of that approach has been totally undermined by bringing in Tebow. Stanton was a true backup. The Jets had him and they were set going into next season.

Now it's a case of WTF?

Perhaps you should look at Tebow as kind of a stalking horse. When training a horse to race, you put him on the track by himself and go through the normal exercises to develop speed and endurance. After that groundwork has been laid, you then put another horse on the track to push him.

That's what you get with Tebow (unless he has improved dramatically with his passing consistency). He's enough to push Sanchez and make him get better, but probably not good enough to take his job away.

[Wolf Brother]

But... the logic of that approach has been totally undermined by bringing in Tebow. Stanton was a true backup. The Jets had him and they were set going into next season.

Now it's a case of WTF?Yup. Tim Tebow completely overshadows anything Mark Sanchez has done or could do. (Psychologically) I tried to think of an analogy, and all I could think of is having a lead guitarist (Mark Sanchez) and you bring in the unorthodox Jimi Hendrix (Tim Tebow) to play lead on certain songs because Mark couldn't perform certain leads well enough but knows his scales. Mark had a couple hits 2 years ago but could not stay in the charts with his band last year and the record company is worried so that's why they bring in Jimi to play on a couple songs. Uhm ... Mark gets overshadowed when the Jimi song goes to the top of the charts. And before you know it, the songs that are the best are the ones with the Jimi leads. And then, the rest of the band thinks, why not have Jimi play a lead on every song? And why even have Mark in the band? Not sure I made any sense. But that's what Sanchez is facing. Manic Depression! LMAO :metal:

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Yup. Tim Tebow completely overshadows anything Mark Sanchez has done or could do. (Psychologically) I tried to think of an analogy, and all I could think of is having a lead guitarist (Mark Sanchez) and you bring in the unorthodox Jimi Hendrix (Tim Tebow) to play lead on certain songs because Mark couldn't perform certain leads well enough but knows his scales. Mark had a couple hits 2 years ago but could not stay in the charts with his band last year and the record company is worried so that's why they bring in Jimi to play on a couple songs. Uhm ... Mark gets overshadowed when the Jimi song goes to the top of the charts. And before you know it, the songs that are the best are the ones with the Jimi leads. And then, the rest of the band thinks, why not have Jimi play a lead on every song? And why even have Mark in the band? Not sure I made any sense. But that's what Sanchez is facing. Manic Depression! LMAO :metal:

That's a great analogy except that football is nothing at all like having a rock band and Tebow is more like John Denver than Jimi Hendrix.

[Jetaho]

Yup. Tim Tebow completely overshadows anything Mark Sanchez has done or could do. (Psychologically) I tried to think of an analogy, and all I could think of is having a lead guitarist (Mark Sanchez) and you bring in the unorthodox Jimi Hendrix (Tim Tebow) to play lead on certain songs because Mark couldn't perform certain leads well enough but knows his scales. Mark had a couple hits 2 years ago but could not stay in the charts with his band last year and the record company is worried so that's why they bring in Jimi to play on a couple songs. Uhm ... Mark gets overshadowed when the Jimi song goes to the top of the charts. And before you know it, the songs that are the best are the ones with the Jimi leads. And then, the rest of the band thinks, why not have Jimi play a lead on every song? And why even have Mark in the band? Not sure I made any sense. But that's what Sanchez is facing. Manic Depression! LMAO :metal:

Uh yeah, you lost me there 100%, but can Mangold play drums?

[Jetaho]

Would 2 QB sets = Dueling banjos?

[Wolf Brother]

That's a great analogy except that football is nothing at all like having a rock band and Tebow is more like John Denver than Jimi Hendrix.Ha ha ha ha! John Denver!

[BeastBeach]

That's a great analogy except that football is nothing at all like having a rock band and Tebow is more like John Denver than Jimi Hendrix.

lulz

filler

[Hobbes3259]

Yup. Tim Tebow completely overshadows anything Mark Sanchez has done or could do. (Psychologically) I tried to think of an analogy, and all I could think of is having a lead guitarist (Mark Sanchez) and you bring in the unorthodox Jimi Hendrix (Tim Tebow) to play lead on certain songs because Mark couldn't perform certain leads well enough but knows his scales. Mark had a couple hits 2 years ago but could not stay in the charts with his band last year and the record company is worried so that's why they bring in Jimi to play on a couple songs. Uhm ... Mark gets overshadowed when the Jimi song goes to the top of the charts. And before you know it, the songs that are the best are the ones with the Jimi leads. And then, the rest of the band thinks, why not have Jimi play a lead on every song? And why even have Mark in the band? Not sure I made any sense. But that's what Sanchez is facing. Manic Depression! LMAO :metal:

Michael Schenkers career vehemently disagrees. Lights Out. :metal:

[Hobbes3259]

Perhaps you should look at Tebow as kind of a stalking horse. When training a horse to race, you put him on the track by himself and go through the normal exercises to develop speed and endurance. After that groundwork has been laid, you then put another horse on the track to push him.

That's what you get with Tebow (unless he has improved dramatically with his passing consistency). He's enough to push Sanchez and make him get better, but probably not good enough to take his job away.

I think that's true to a point.


The truth is, the threat of Tebow getting better should drive Sanchez, but in reality Tebow, is an upgrade over Brad Smith + Mark Brunell (not too much difference overall) plus a roster spot.


Sanchez is going to get better by virtue of being in a better run offense. I think, upon reflection, that the staff wants to drive him NOW before he gets better to maximize the opportunity.

[Biggs]

Yup. Tim Tebow completely overshadows anything Mark Sanchez has done or could do. (Psychologically) I tried to think of an analogy, and all I could think of is having a lead guitarist (Mark Sanchez) and you bring in the unorthodox Jimi Hendrix (Tim Tebow) to play lead on certain songs because Mark couldn't perform certain leads well enough but knows his scales. Mark had a couple hits 2 years ago but could not stay in the charts with his band last year and the record company is worried so that's why they bring in Jimi to play on a couple songs. Uhm ... Mark gets overshadowed when the Jimi song goes to the top of the charts. And before you know it, the songs that are the best are the ones with the Jimi leads. And then, the rest of the band thinks, why not have Jimi play a lead on every song? And why even have Mark in the band? Not sure I made any sense. But that's what Sanchez is facing. Manic Depression! LMAO :metal:

When I think of Mark Sanchez the guitarist I'm thinking of a friend of mine who was a really good in the local high school band. When I think of Tebow as a guitarist I'm thinking tragically put his hand in a wood chopper before his debut in the garage.

Dan Marino had a little more Hendrix than Timmy Tebow.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Perhaps you should look at Tebow as kind of a stalking horse. When training a horse to race, you put him on the track by himself and go through the normal exercises to develop speed and endurance. After that groundwork has been laid, you then put another horse on the track to push him.

That's what you get with Tebow (unless he has improved dramatically with his passing consistency). He's enough to push Sanchez and make him get better, but probably not good enough to take his job away.

The problem with this argument is that it takes a vastly more disciplined organization than the Jets to prevent the stalking horse from somehow winding up in the race as the starting horse.

The Jets have tied their fortunes for next year to a guy who doesn't throw the ball well enough to be a good NFL QB. They may not know they've done this yet for sure but they have.

The reason Tebow-mania happens is not because Tim Tebow is a great QB who teams would love having start for them. The reason Tebow-mania happens is that Tim Tebow has most of the other qualities that you'd like to have in a QB and he positively radiates leadership, self-assurance, poise, etc. The non-throwing qualities that teams desperately want in their QB.

At Florida that was enough to win, in a competitive environment in which not being able to throw the ball extremely well was not that important. Lots of college teams win with their QB doing things other than throwing the ball wel enough to win in the NFL. That's why Scott Frost took Nebraska to a share of a national championship. It's why Tim Tebow took Florida to one also.

As in Denver those Tebow qualities are going to get him on the field as soon as the other guy falters, and maybe even before that if the Jets locker room supports the switch. That's when the Jets become capped by their QB for sure. Because in today's NFL you can't win at the end of the season unless you are capable of leading multiple game-winning drives against great defenses and Tebow is absolutely not capable of doing that based on his skills.

It's not clear that Mark Sanchez can do this either. He has never led a game-winning drive at the end in the playoffs against a great defense. But he clearly has the possibility of doing this based on his proven record of playing well at the end of games and in the playoffs.

Tim Tebow is an evolutionary dead-end for the Jets at QB. He's going to be another waste of 2 years until this becomes clear beyond a reasonable doubt. John Elway moved heaven and earth to get rid of him because Elway understood this. We were the suckers who took on the problem and now will have to deal with it.

[Zach]

Tim Tebow is an evolutionary dead-end for the Jets at QB. He's going to be another waste of 2 years until this becomes clear beyond a reasonable doubt. John Elway moved heaven and earth to get rid of him because Elway understood this. We were the suckers who took on the problem and now will have to deal with it.

Yes. And at the cost of yet another potential offensive tackle. Stupid any way you look at it.

[Demosthenes9]

The problem with this argument is that it takes a vastly more disciplined organization than the Jets to prevent the stalking horse from somehow winding up in the race as the starting horse.

The Jets have tied their fortunes for next year to a guy who doesn't throw the ball well enough to be a good NFL QB. They may not know they've done this yet for sure but they have.

The reason Tebow-mania happens is not because Tim Tebow is a great QB who teams would love having start for them. The reason Tebow-mania happens is that Tim Tebow has most of the other qualities that you'd like to have in a QB and he positively radiates leadership, self-assurance, poise, etc. The non-throwing qualities that teams desperately want in their QB.

At Florida that was enough to win, in a competitive environment in which not being able to throw the ball extremely well was not that important. Lots of college teams win with their QB doing things other than throwing the ball wel enough to win in the NFL. That's why Scott Frost took Nebraska to a share of a national championship. It's why Tim Tebow took Florida to one also.

As in Denver those Tebow qualities are going to get him on the field as soon as the other guy falters, and maybe even before that if the Jets locker room supports the switch. That's when the Jets become capped by their QB for sure. Because in today's NFL you can't win at the end of the season unless you are capable of leading multiple game-winning drives against great defenses and Tebow is absolutely not capable of doing that based on his skills.

It's not clear that Mark Sanchez can do this either. He has never led a game-winning drive at the end in the playoffs against a great defense. But he clearly has the possibility of doing this based on his proven record of playing well at the end of games and in the playoffs.

Tim Tebow is an evolutionary dead-end for the Jets at QB. He's going to be another waste of 2 years until this becomes clear beyond a reasonable doubt. John Elway moved heaven and earth to get rid of him because Elway understood this. We were the suckers who took on the problem and now will have to deal with it.

Have to take issue with a couple of things here. First, in college, Tebow had all the intangible traits as a Freshman yet still wasn't the starter. Why ? Because Chris Leak was a better passer than Tebow was.

Secondly, if you want to, pull up the stats of the Nebraska QB that you referenced and see how his passing numbers stack up against Tebow's. I keep hearing this "He can't pass" mantra, but the fact of the matter is that Tebow passed very well in college and his numbers rival and actually beat Peyton Manning's in certain key categories. Basically, Manning had more yards due to more attempts and completions, while Tebow has higher YPC, higher YPA, better interception ration, higher TD % and better passer rating.

WRT your last statement, I think it laughable that you want to pronounce Tebow as being at an evolutionary dead end when he has had fewer than 16 starts as an NFL QB and in those starts, was in a worse situation than Sanchez has EVER faced.

In his three years as a starter, Sanchez has played behind a better Oline than they had in Denver; with better receivers than they had in Denver; with a better Defense than they had in Denver; and with better coaches than they had in Denver (yes, even accounting for Shotty and Cav). Not that I'm a fan of Shotty's, but I'd take Rex and Shotty over John Fox and Mike McCoy any day of the week.

[Wolf Brother]

The Jets Brass are just loving all of this attention and discussion. They opened this pandora's box on purpose even though they knew full well the potential drama. In fact, they paid good money (2.5 mil) for a front row seat.

[nyjunc]

The Jets Brass are just loving all of this attention and discussion. They opened this pandora's box on purpose even though they knew full well the potential drama. In fact, they paid good money (2.5 mil) for a front row seat.

I don't buy the theory that the Jets made this move to get attention or to take away attention from the Giants winning the SB. The Jets got a ton of attention in dec & january- all of it BAD. if the tebow thing blows up it will be more unwanted negative attention. in '09 & '10 they got attention for being a top team and that's the only way to get such attention.

I'm not naive to think that all of tebow's off field popularity didn't play some sort of role but if they didn't think this could work on the field they never would have made the deal.

[Wolf Brother]

I don't buy the theory that the Jets made this move to get attention or to take away attention from the Giants winning the SB. The Jets got a ton of attention in dec & january- all of it BAD. if the tebow thing blows up it will be more unwanted negative attention. in '09 & '10 they got attention for being a top team and that's the only way to get such attention.

I'm not naive to think that all of tebow's off field popularity didn't play some sort of role but if they didn't think this could work on the field they never would have made the deal.
The mere fact that you need Tebow to "help" Mark Sanchez get better and in games is an inditement on Mark Sanchez. Tebow is not Brad Smith. He's not a designated RB, he's a QB. Whatever you may think Tebow should be he is listed on the roster as a quarterback (back-up). It is silly and naive to buy into the notion that he's not an actual threat to Sanchez, and for the Jets to try to side-step or dance around the concept is laughable and speaks to me of the lack of toughness on Mark. Its like you want the Mark that was so sharp and focused in the playoff run two years ago, but you have this monster you created in the regular season who seems spoiled, coddled, and the mentality of a rock star but without the hardware to prove it. At some point, Cav's comments allude to that, imo. Sanchez thinks he's the shit and nobody is gonna tell him different. Is it too late to get the guy before he thought he was a rock star GQ Celebrity? I think of the player Jeff George. The guy thought he was the shit. And he had tremendous talent, but became uncoachable.

[nyjunc]

The mere fact that you need Tebow to "help" Mark Sanchez get better and in games is an inditement on Mark Sanchez. Tebow is not Brad Smith. He's not a designated RB, he's a QB. Whatever you may think Tebow should be he is listed on the roster as a quarterback (back-up). It is silly and naive to buy into the notion that he's not an actual threat to Sanchez, and for the Jets to try to side-step or dance around the concept is laughable and speaks to me of the lack of toughness on Mark. Its like you want the Mark that was so sharp and focused in the playoff run two years ago, but you have this monster you created in the regular season who seems spoiled, coddled, and the mentality of a rock star but without the hardware to prove it. At some point, Cav's comments allude to that, imo. Sanchez thinks he's the shit and nobody is gonna tell him different. Is it too late to get the guy before he thought he was a rock star GQ Celebrity? I think of the player Jeff George. The guy thought he was the shit. And he had tremendous talent, but became uncoachable.

I don't think they got him to help Mark Sanchez, they got him to help the offense. he's a unique wepaon and he may be listed as a QB but he will fill many roles- many more than Brad Smith plus he's a better runner and passer.

I don't think he is any more of a threat than Drew Stanton would be on the field. Sure he has an incredibly loyal following and that may create some things in the media but Stevie Wonder could see there's no comparing the 2 QBs. The best thing Tebow did as a starting QB was lead late comebacks, Sanchez has also specialized in that too and he's been better at it. The only way Tebow is our starting QB is if Sanchez gets hurt.

You think Sanchez is like Jeff george? George had HOF physical tools and was dumb as could be and didn't work, Sanchez has above average NFL physical tools and works as hard as anyone on the team. The two are nothing alike

B/c he does a GQ photoshoot he thinks he's a rockstar celebrity? give me a break. he has never put himself above the team and he does a fraction of the off field stuff he is offered.

[SanityRemoved]

Funny that Cavanaugh doesn't see that he failed as a coach last season.

[Big Blocker]

That's a great analogy except that football is nothing at all like having a rock band and Tebow is more like John Denver than Jimi Hendrix.

LMAO. I was thinking the same thing. Well, not the John Denver part, but yeah, the general concept.

[Wolf Brother]

I don't think they got him to help Mark Sanchez, they got him to help the offense. he's a unique wepaon and he may be listed as a QB but he will fill many roles- many more than Brad Smith plus he's a better runner and passer.

I don't think he is any more of a threat than Drew Stanton would be on the field. Sure he has an incredibly loyal following and that may create some things in the media but Stevie Wonder could see there's no comparing the 2 QBs. The best thing Tebow did as a starting QB was lead late comebacks, Sanchez has also specialized in that too and he's been better at it. The only way Tebow is our starting QB is if Sanchez gets hurt.

You think Sanchez is like Jeff george? George had HOF physical tools and was dumb as could be and didn't work, Sanchez has above average NFL physical tools and works as hard as anyone on the team. The two are nothing alike

B/c he does a GQ photoshoot he thinks he's a rockstar celebrity? give me a break. he has never put himself above the team and he does a fraction of the off field stuff he is offered.LMAO I tell you what: You actually are buying what the management said as if it's 100% true when everything that you said is a contradiction. Management say one thing but their actions CLEARLY speak to something else entirely. What I said is a much more critical and honest read on this move.

[nyjunc]

LMAO I tell you what: You actually are buying what the management said as if it's 100% true when everything that you said is a contradiction. Management say one thing but their actions CLEARLY speak to something else entirely. What I said is a much more critical and honest read on this move.

I am not buying anything, I'm looking at it realistically. You are buying what the media is telling you but when you step back and see things realistically you'll get a better understanding.