NY Jets quarterback Tim Tebow is helping turn inmates' lives around

[CowboysFan]

NY Jets quarterback Tim Tebow, through talk and prayer, is helping turn inmates' lives around
End Zone: Deliver them from evil


LAWTEY, Fla. - Willie James Ashley is a 55-year-old former Air Force man from Miami who had a long career in the cocaine business and once caught a pass from Tim Tebow. He caught a couple of them, actually. The first one Ashley brought down in a crowd, with his thick body and his buzz cut, and his blue, prison-issue uniform, Tebow throwing a Hail Mary to the back row of the bleachers in a crowded gymnasium.

The next one came on the gym floor, where Tebow missed him on a timing pattern, then threw one more, a flare pass, which Ashley caught easily. That was almost three years ago, but Willie Ashley hasn’t forgotten the pass, or the man who delivered it, in front of 300 inmates in a hot gym at Lawtey Correctional Institution.

“I was at the lowest point of my life,” Willie Ashley says. “I took my whole family down, and I was suffering.”

He talks about feeling worthless and ashamed and angry, how regret and pessimism were pounding him like a mallet. If it didn’t all start to change the moment he met Tim Tebow, Heisman Trophy winner and national champion and then a Florida Gator icon, it was pretty close.

“He inspired me with his message and he inspired me with his walk with God,” Ashley says. “He helped me see that the Lord would give me another chance, and understand that the Lord takes nothing and makes something out of it all the time. Whatever trash people may think you are, God says, ‘I can make you a treasure.’”

Willie Ashley will be in the Lawtey Correctional Institution chapel Sunday, and like Christians everywhere on this Easter Sunday, will be celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ. As he goes about trying to rebuild and restore his own life, Ashley says he thanks God for bringing him to this place, a medium-security facility with 800 inmates on the outskirts of a small, impoverished community in northeast Florida. He thanks God for bringing him before Tebow, too, a sentiment shared by Reginald Spivey, Gerald Evans and Tyron Thomas — three other inmates who have heard Tebow’s impassioned Christian testimony in two visits here, and talk about a Tebowmania that is altogether different from the one that has engulfed the big city the last few weeks. It is not about green No. 15 jerseys flying off the racks, or overflow press conferences, or even about who should play quarterback for the New York Jets.

It’s about a man who, by all accounts, not only lives his faith, but shares it with fire and fervor you need to hear to believe. Whatever one’s religious beliefs, or lack of same, it is impossible not to view Tim Tebow as an authentic man who wants to share what he considers the greatest gift of his life: the love and mercy of a gracious God.

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[#1 Jets Fan]

Lmfao... Yeah inmates always seem to turn themselves around in jail. Then when they get out 85% of them end up back in jail.

[CowboysFan]

Lmfao... Yeah inmates always seem to turn themselves around in jail. Then when they get out 85% of them end up back in jail.

Out of sheer morbid curiousity and because I have masochistic tendencies on Internet forums I wanted to ask you.....did you even read the 4 page article?

[#1 Jets Fan]

Out of sheer morbid curiousity and because I have masochistic tendencies on Internet forums I wanted to ask you.....did you even read the 4 page article?No I didn't. I read enough to tell me how much convicts are bs.

[21stAmendment]

Lmfao... Yeah inmates always seem to turn themselves around in jail. Then when they get out 85% of them end up back in jail.

says more about our America's prison systems than anything else. We don't try and rehabilitate inmates in this country. We store them in cages and concrete rooms until they "repay their to debt to society" in the hope they learned their lesson. But all we really do is piss them off and send them back into society the same or sometimes even worse.

[74Mangold]

says more about our America's prison systems than anything else. We don't try and rehabilitate inmates in this country. We store them in cages and concrete rooms until they "repay their to debt to society" in the hope they learned their lesson. But all we really do is piss them off and send them back into society the same or sometimes even worse.

Well how else are we going to put them back in prison to generate enormous profits for those holding the purse strings of the penal system/war on drugs/etc?

Tim Tebow for Earth Czar, 2012.

[#1 Jets Fan]

says more about our America's prison systems than anything else. We don't try and rehabilitate inmates in this country. We store them in cages and concrete rooms until they "repay their to debt to society" in the hope they learned their lesson. But all we really do is piss them off and send them back into society the same or sometimes even worse.No it says more about the way people are. U can only rehabilitate the ones who really want it. They put themselves there in the 1st place. That the problem with this world instead of people manning up and stop blaming everybody and start taking the blame for the shit they do.

[Footballgod214]

Tebow Delivers Inmates From Evil

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Not any Burress connection, but funny just the same.

This is what the Jet's locker room will look like in 3 months....

[dreamsfloatjoe]

... This is what the Jet's locker room will look like in 3 months:lol: min 10 char

[Remarker]

At a public hearing I attended to speak in support of my friend getting a beer license for his restaurant, I observed the hearing for a prisoner requesting work release. A preacher spoke saying the prisoner had found Jesus, then a prison guard spoke saying, "Every prisoner says they have found Jesus. I have been a prison guard for 35 years and I ain't seen him yet".

[#1 Jets Fan]

At a public hearing I attended to speak in support of my friend getting a beer license for his restaurant, I observed the hearing for a prisoner requesting work release. A preacher spoke saying the prisoner had found Jesus, then a prison guard spoke saying, "Every prisoner says they have found Jesus. I have been a prison guard for 35 years and I ain't seen him yet".That because he only stays on the other side of the bars. As u know parole will do that to inmates.

[CowboysFan]

No I didn't. I read enough to tell me how much convicts are bs.

So EVRYONE that has ever been convicted of a crime has zero ability to turn their life around ? That sounds real intelligent and open minded .

Read the article if your going to spout off about it .

[VanderbiltJets]

Lmfao... Yeah inmates always seem to turn themselves around in jail. Then when they get out 85% of them end up back in jail.

Logical fallacy To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

[CowboysFan]

Lmfao... Yeah inmates always seem to turn themselves around in jail. Then when they get out 85% of them end up back in jail.

Anti Tebow army loves to make numbers up.

Try again with your 85% , studis show that it's more in the 52% range , so roughly half never end up back in jail.

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[Remarker]

That because he only stays on the other side of the bars. As u know parole will do that to inmates.
Yep, inmates will do anything that helps them get out of prison.

[#1 Jets Fan]

Anti Tebow army loves to make numbers up.

Try again with your 85% , studis show that it's more in the 52% range , so roughly half never end up back in jail.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily. because I think Tebow is garbage as a QB that makes me "anti Tebow"?
The show I watched a few weeks ago said 85% go back to jail.

[RobertPooner]

Just because I think Tebow is garbage as a QB that makes me "anti Tebow"?
The show I watched a few weeks ago said 85% go back to jail.

Yes, it does. Because it proves you aren't objective. If Luck or RG3 does what Tebow did in their first 16 starts, people like you would be slurping them constantly.

[Bannon]

Just because I think Tebow is garbage as a QB that makes me "anti Tebow"?

Pretty much -- I think it's splitting hairs to say otherwise. You don't think he belongs in the league, don't think he belongs on the roster, you think he's a joke that's soon to be exposed . . . . in internet shorthand, that's over in the "anti" section.

I think Flacco is a problem. Doesn't mean I hate him as person, but I think "anti-Flacco" would be a reasonable description. I think they should find another quarterback.

[alleycat9]

why if you hate the guy as a qb would you also hate him as a person who is at least going out and trying to help people?

sounds like the typical guy who is sitting at home on easter sunday helping nobody. just bitching about everyone else.

[NY Dork]

Funny how a post about some worthwhile jail ministry turns into a bashing fest. Evidence some folks lead very unhappy lives..............

[NJGREEN]

Tebow rules....

[gmp]

that TT gets at least 1 charitable photo-op a week and that rest of the players in the NFL do nothing.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Yes, it does. Because it proves you aren't objective. If Luck or RG3 does what Tebow did in their first 16 starts, people like you would be slurping them constantly.

Tebow hasn't done anything in the nfl that a truly objective viewer would see as good nfl quarterbacking worthy of 'slurping'. If luck or rg3 played like tebow most wouldn't think they were good qb's.

[Remarker]

Funny how a post about some worthwhile jail ministry turns into a bashing fest. Evidence some folks lead very unhappy lives..............
My feelings about criminals are similar to my feeling about Tebow, I don't care if they are religious or not. In Tim's case, just keep putting Ws in the W/L column. In a criminal's case, just stop being a criminal.

[nyjetsrule]

that TT gets at least 1 charitable photo-op a week and that rest of the players in the NFL do nothing.

That is absolutely untrue. NFL players do an incredible amount of charity work. Do they all do same? of course not, but the teams require they do so many hours a year. Some go above and beyond that.

Because its Tim fucking Tebow, his charitable events get national media attention. Meanwhile, the packers guys working at the soup kitchen, or the falcons players who read to pre-schoolers, or the Saints players that are involved with Habitat for Humanity get hardly any attention outside of the very local markets in which they do the charity work.

Hell Jets players have foundations, and do multiple events a year, Brick does one for MS i believe, and i know Holmes does a bowling tournament with the Jets and fans for Sickle Cell research.

That statement you made is incredibly far reaching and insanely uninformed.

[gmp]

You seem to have missed the sarcasm. I have found his attention grabbing attitude impossible to swallow.

[RobertPooner]

Tebow hasn't done anything in the nfl that a truly objective viewer would see as good nfl quarterbacking worthy of 'slurping'. If luck or rg3 played like tebow most wouldn't think they were good qb's.

BS. If one of them wins a playoff game next year you will be shouting "HOF shoe-in!"

[LongTimeJetsFan]

BS. If one of them wins a playoff game next year you will be shouting "HOF shoe-in!"

You obviously have no idea what i would be saying.

[RobertPooner]

Should have clarified the "you" was figurative and a generalization. No, i didn't mean you personally. Apologies, hopefully we can all play nice again.

[#1 Jets Fan]

Pretty much -- I think it's splitting hairs to say otherwise. You don't think he belongs in the league, don't think he belongs on the roster, you think he's a joke that's soon to be exposed . . . . in internet shorthand, that's over in the "anti" section.

I think Flacco is a problem. Doesn't mean I hate him as person, but I think "anti-Flacco" would be a reasonable description. I think they should find another quarterback.Show me where I ever posted I didn't like Tebow as a person? That the problem with u Tebow nuts once somebody doesn't like him as a QB u think they don't like him as a person. I could careless about his faith,if he gay,if he a great person or a asshole as a person. I judge him by what he does on the football field.

[#1 Jets Fan]

Yes, it does. Because it proves you aren't objective. If Luck or RG3 does what Tebow did in their first 16 starts, people like you would be slurping them constantly.nope. If they both did the same I would be saying the samething. U Tebow nuts think he the next great QB but ur the only ones saying it. Bottom line he will NEVER be the Jets starting QB on a reg. bases.

[Chrebet86]

Tebow is not a QB and I was not overall impressed by any skills he has shown at the position during his short career so far.

I unbiasedly would not be impressed by any player of a different name, gender, race or belief who showed a similar production at said QB position.

As a person the way he spends his time is admirable and I believe he did not ask for any of this.

I am glad the New York Jets have provided this genuinely decent human being with a second chance at providing his unique skillset to the NFL and its fans, for without them humbly allowing him to join their team in a supplemantary role and use him in a utilitarian fashion would be an injustice to him and hopefully to the success of this team.

Thank you for your time.

[Bannon]

Show me where I ever posted I didn't like Tebow as a person? That the problem with u Tebow nuts once somebody doesn't like him as a QB u think they don't like him as a person. I could careless about his faith,if he gay,if he a great person or a asshole as a person. I judge him by what he does on the football field.

I didn't say you did, nor did anyone else. People have better things to do than comb over your posts. You called him "garbage" (obviously slang, I know), but get all butt-hurt over the label "anti-Tebow?"

Lighten up. I'm "anti" a lot of things and people. I'm "anti" the new Dorito Taco Bell taco.

[CowboysFan]

Tebow hasn't done anything in the nfl that a truly objective viewer would see as good nfl quarterbacking worthy of 'slurping'. If luck or rg3 played like tebow most wouldn't think they were good qb's.

Tebow set the all time NFL record for fourth quarter comebacks in first 16 NFL starts with 6.

So when you say he has done nothing does it also include NFL records?

He also had 3,835 ( total yards) and 32 TDs in 16 starts ( and appearances in a few other games ) and a winning record as a starter for the worst team in the nfl ( prvious 31 games) prior to him starting .

Who is not being be objective again?

[Chrebet86]

Tebow set the all time NFL record for fourth quarter comebacks in first 16 NFL starts with 6.


Thats not a record.

Thats like in baseball they got a guy come up to bat and hes the only player in history to hit a homerun against this pitcher when a man is on third, the sun is out and the ump is picking his nose.

not saying it in defense of either side of your arguments, but situational stats are a plague of modern sports and i hate them.

[PraisebetoRevis]

If Tebow really helped this guy, then that's great for both of them.

[CowboysFan]

Thats not a record.

Thats like in baseball they got a guy come up to bat and hes the only player in history to hit a homerun against this pitcher when a man is on third, the sun is out and the ump is picking his nose.

not saying it in defense of either side of your arguments, but situational stats are a plague of modern sports and i hate them.

winning record as starter (at every level including the NFL) does not matter, stats don't matter, records don't matter, got it.

[ScotsJet]

Tebow set the all time NFL record for fourth quarter comebacks in first 16 NFL starts with 6.

Trouble with that record is it means he was losing after Q3 a lot. Not something to be encouraged.

[CowboysFan]

Trouble with that record is it means he was losing after Q3 a lot. Not something to be encouraged.

Football is a team game. he was not solely responsible for the wins and he was not solely responsible for the holes the team was in.
It was a crappy team that was 7-24 previously. Denver was down A LOT of the 3rd quarter in the two years before Tebow.

Sometimes it seems like people are talking about the Green Bay Packers or saints or 49ers and not the WORST team in the NFL before the QB switch.

Denver record before Tebow

2-8 2009 (last 10 games of season)

4-12 2010

1-4 2011 (first 5 games of season )

The worst win loss record in the NFL during that span.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Tebow set the all time NFL record for fourth quarter comebacks in first 16 NFL starts with 6.

So when you say he has done nothing does it also include NFL records?

He also had 3,835 ( total yards) and 32 TDs in 16 starts ( and appearances in a few other games ) and a winning record as a starter for the worst team in the nfl ( prvious 31 games) prior to him starting .

Who is not being be objective again?

I'm talking about NFL QB skills which Tebow still hasn't shown. You want to look at combined running/passing stats and team stats instead of watching the guy play. Any other QB throwing the ball like Tebow would also be ridiculed, they just wouldn't have a massive cult following to support him with hand picked manipulative stats. Watch him play, stop reading hand picked combined portions of stat sheets, he's not an NFL QB.

That's why the Broncos who wasted a 1st round pick on him were willing to get rid of him for only a 4th round pick when they have a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season due to injury. If he had shown real promise as an NFL QB they would have been idiots to trade him away for so little. He could have learned from the best.

[reverseapachemaster]

Football is a team game. he was not solely responsible for the wins and he was not solely responsible for the holes the team was in.
It was a crappy team that was 7-24 previously. Denver was down A LOT of the 3rd quarter in the two years before Tebow.

Sometimes it seems like people are talking about the Green Bay Packers or saints or 49ers and not the WORST team in the NFL before the QB switch.

Denver record before Tebow

2-8 2009 (last 10 games of season)

4-12 2010

1-4 2011 (first 5 games of season )

The worst win loss record in the NFL during that span.

If you don't believe he was solely responsible for the wins then you wouldn't make the argument about the TEAM's record before he took over because obviously Orton wasn't responsible for those loses.

[Bannon]

If you don't believe he was solely responsible for the wins then you wouldn't make the argument about the TEAM's record before he took over because obviously Orton wasn't responsible for those loses.

That's not good reasoning. The reason the wins are important to performance is not because any player is "solely" responsible. It's because in any win, the performance was good enough to win. We won't have the benefit of knowing how much better he could have done, because the job got done. In Orton's case, the job didn't get done.

It's a complex thing -- play-calling, risk-taking, "pulling the trigger" etc. A lot of those games involved a TON of run plays. When it came down to the need to air it out, in the wins the passing was good enough. Whatever the situation faced, the athletic ability to rise to the challenge was there.

It's kind of like a pitcher in baseball -- wins and losses aren't all on him, but if he does win you know his pitching was a least good enough for the situation he faced.

[Chrebet86]

winning record as starter (at every level including the NFL) does not matter, stats don't matter, records don't matter, got it.

They do matter, but when they get doctored up to sound better than they are well its just kind of lame.

[red75bronco]

I'm talking about NFL QB skills which Tebow still hasn't shown. You want to look at combined running/passing stats and team stats instead of watching the guy play. Any other QB throwing the ball like Tebow would also be ridiculed, they just wouldn't have a massive cult following to support him with hand picked manipulative stats. Watch him play, stop reading hand picked combined portions of stat sheets, he's not an NFL QB.

That's why the Broncos who wasted a 1st round pick on him were willing to get rid of him for only a 4th round pick when they have a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season due to injury. If he had shown real promise as an NFL QB they would have been idiots to trade him away for so little. He could have learned from the best.

Not only did they trade him for nothing, they took all photos of Tebow out of the training facility Dove Valley. Elway wanted him gone like the plague.

[CowboysFan]

If you don't believe he was solely responsible for the wins then you wouldn't make the argument about the TEAM's record before he took over because obviously Orton wasn't responsible for those loses.

Anti Tebowites (yes its a cult) automatically assume that any praise given to Tebow (no matter how small) is an indication that the person giving the praise thinks he was solely responsible for winning a game .

Here is what I think and what actually is reality:


Tebow was not the only reason the Broncos completely turned around that abysmal record and ended 8-5 with a playoff win and of course
The Denver defense and the kicking game had as much to do with it .

BUT without Tebow the Broncos do not go 8-5 into the playoffs , as Tebow is one of the 3 pieces that were neccessary to get that accomplished (Quinn and Orton would not have had that success running the same offense) .

Therefore Tebow deserves as much credit for the turn around as the defense and the kicking game and if not as much quite a bit (he was one of the 3 pieces) .

[CowboysFan]

Not only did they trade him for nothing, they took all photos of Tebow out of the training facility Dove Valley. Elway wanted him gone like the plague.



I'm talking about NFL QB skills which Tebow still hasn't shown. You want to look at combined running/passing stats and team stats instead of watching the guy play. Any other QB throwing the ball like Tebow would also be ridiculed, they just wouldn't have a massive cult following to support him with hand picked manipulative stats. Watch him play, stop reading hand picked combined portions of stat sheets, he's not an NFL QB.

That's why the Broncos who wasted a 1st round pick on him were willing to get rid of him for only a 4th round pick when they have a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season due to injury. If he had shown real promise as an NFL QB they would have been idiots to trade him away for so little. He could have learned from the best.


Tebow was gone because Peyton Manning wanted to go to Denver, the same way the Jet's would have "wasted" a pick on Sanchez if Peyton had decided to go to the jets.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Tebow was gone because Peyton Manning wanted to go to Denver, the same way the Jet's would have "wasted" a pick on Sanchez if Peyton had decided to go to the jets.

The Jets wouldn't have had cap space to keep both. The Broncos definitely did. Peyton Manning is also much more of an injury risk at this point in his career than Sanchez.

[CowboysFan]

The Jets wouldn't have had cap space to keep both. The Broncos definitely did. Peyton Manning is also much more of an injury risk at this point in his career than Sanchez.

Make no mistake about it, Tebow is gone because Peyton would not have wanted him on the bench. If Peyton gets off to a slow start and they are 3-4 to start the season you would have heard rumblings in the stands.

Denver did not get rid of Tebow because he stunk, they got rid of Tebow because they did not feel he could co exist with Peyton after Tebow had so much success as a starter (again Broncos were crap before and had not been to the playoffs in 7 years, Tebow as not the only reason for the turnaround but he was one of the reasons).

I'll say it again, jets got a steal for a 4th round pick, we will revisit this as the end of the year and see who was right.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Make no mistake about it, Tebow is gone because Peyton would not have wanted him on the bench. If Peyton gets off to a slow start and they are 3-4 to start the season you would have heard rumblings in the stands.

Denver did not get rid of Tebow because he stunk, they got rid of Tebow because they did not feel he could co exist with Peyton after Tebow had so much success as a starter (again Broncos were crap before and had not been to the playoffs in 7 years, Tebow as not the only reason for the turnaround but he was one of the reasons).

I'll say it again, jets got a steal for a 4th round pick, we will revisit this as the end of the year and see who was right.
You honestly believe that Peyton Manning felt threatened by Tim Tebow? OK.

Also - please look at the original post I was responding to to put a context around this conversation. I never said he had no value, in fact I think he can be very valuable as a situational player. Just not as a starting QB.

[#1 Jets Fan]

[QUOTE=LongTimeJetsFan;2466751]I'm talking about NFL QB skills which Tebow still hasn't shown. You want to look at combined running/passing stats and team stats instead of watching the guy play. Any other QB throwing the ball like Tebow would also be ridiculed, they just wouldn't have a massive cult following to support him with hand picked manipulative stats. Watch him play, stop reading hand picked combined portions of stat sheets, he's not an NFL QB.

That's why the Broncos who wasted a 1st round pick on him were willing to get rid of him for only a 4th round pick when they have a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season due to injury. If he had shown real promise as an NFL QB they would have been idiots to trade him away for so little. He could have learned from the best.[/QUOTE) give up on talking football with these Tebow nuts no matter what he a great QB in there eyes.

[CowboysFan]

You honestly believe that Peyton Manning felt threatened by Tim Tebow? OK.

Also - please look at the original post I was responding to to put a context around this conversation. I never said he had no value, in fact I think he can be very valuable as a situational player. Just not as a starting QB.

It would have been a distraction for Peyton being asked 1000 questions every news conference, because unlike the jets, Denver would have had tebow not playing in the game.

You and i agree on everything else .

[CowboysFan]

[QUOTE=LongTimeJetsFan;2466751]I'm talking about NFL QB skills which Tebow still hasn't shown. You want to look at combined running/passing stats and team stats instead of watching the guy play. Any other QB throwing the ball like Tebow would also be ridiculed, they just wouldn't have a massive cult following to support him with hand picked manipulative stats. Watch him play, stop reading hand picked combined portions of stat sheets, he's not an NFL QB.

That's why the Broncos who wasted a 1st round pick on him were willing to get rid of him for only a 4th round pick when they have a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season due to injury. If he had shown real promise as an NFL QB they would have been idiots to trade him away for so little. He could have learned from the best.[/QUOTE) give up on talking football with these Tebow nuts no matter what he a great QB in there eyes.

Denver did not want to develop Tebow because Tebwo had already succeeded there and had a MASSIVE fan base that would have clamored for him to get in the game . it would have been a distraction for Denver keeping tebow on the bench.

Just read what his team mates and Fox and Elway said about it. You don't have to invent your on version of reality like all anti tebowites do.

[LongTimeJetsFan]

Denver did not want to develop Tebow because Tebwo had already succeeded there and had a MASSIVE fan base that would have clamored for him to get in the game . it would have been a distraction for Denver keeping tebow on the bench.

Just read what his team mates and Fox and Elway said about it. You don't have to invent your on version of reality like all anti tebowites do.

If Fox and Elway believed they had an "already successful" young QB with a ton of potential why would they want to shove him out the door so quickly for a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season with a broken neck? Why wouldn't they want to develop him???

[catfish]

If Fox and Elway believed they had an "already successful" young QB with a ton of potential why would they want to shove him out the door so quickly for a 36 year old QB who just missed an entire season with a broken neck? Why wouldn't they want to develop him???

In short because they want to win a SB in the next 2 years and feel that Manning gives them the better chance to do it. They were willing to bet that the return that Manning would give them would be greater than what Tebow could.

Because Tebow had won more than lost as a starter in Denver they didn't have the luxury of keeping him on the roster, in order to get Manning they had to be all in. In order to be all in Tebow had to go. Had the Jets got Manning Sanchez would have been shipped out too same with Smith. As much controversy as Tebow brings as a named backup, imagine the drama with him as a demoted starter after a year with a winning record.

In short Denver was willing to take short term return with Manning over the posibility of long term improvement of Tebow. The next 3 years will tell whether it was a good call or not

[LongTimeJetsFan]

In short because they want to win a SB in the next 2 years and feel that Manning gives them the better chance to do it. They were willing to bet that the return that Manning would give them would be greater than what Tebow could.

Because Tebow had won more than lost as a starter in Denver they didn't have the luxury of keeping him on the roster, in order to get Manning they had to be all in. In order to be all in Tebow had to go. Had the Jets got Manning Sanchez would have been shipped out too same with Smith. As much controversy as Tebow brings as a named backup, imagine the drama with him as a demoted starter after a year with a winning record.

In short Denver was willing to take short term return with Manning over the posibility of long term improvement of Tebow. The next 3 years will tell whether it was a good call or not

That's a nice spin. Again, the Jets couldn't afford Manning and Sanchez. The Broncos could have easily afforded Manning and Tebow. Tebow posed no legit threat to Manning and if he was such a successful young QB Denver would never have let him go for a 4th round pick 2 years after spending a first on him. Furthermore, don't you think a few more NFL GM's would have also recognized this great "successful QB" that you Tebow fans seem to see and offer more than a measly 4th round pick? This league is STARVING for successful young QB's and teams will give up a kings ransom to move up in the draft at merely the CHANCE of a successful young QB. Imagine what they would offer for a proven successful young QB.

Get this straight people, Tebow posed zero threat to Manning. That's a ridiculous argument made up by people who want to believe in their hero. You guys are living in dream land.

[catfish]

That's a nice spin. Again, the Jets couldn't afford Manning and Sanchez. The Broncos could have easily afforded Manning and Tebow. Tebow posed no legit threat to Manning and if he was such a successful young QB Denver would never have let him go for a 4th round pick 2 years after spending a first on him. Furthermore, don't you think a few more NFL GM's would have also recognized this great "successful QB" that you Tebow fans seem to see and offer more than a measly 4th round pick? This league is STARVING for successful young QB's and teams will give up a kings ransom to move up in the draft at merely the CHANCE of a successful young QB. Imagine what they would offer for a proven successful young QB.

Get this straight people, Tebow posed zero threat to Manning. That's a ridiculous argument made up by people who want to believe in their hero. You guys are living in dream land.

never said it would be a threat, more of a distraction. If Denver went 8-8 this year with Tebow on the team as a backup it would be a disaster. I fully expect they would be calling for Tebow by the end of the year. That fanbase would go nuts.

Tebow is still a project QB, that is obvious, I think he has tremendous upside if he ever manages to put it all together. I have never argued that he is a finished product, just that he is not all that bad compared to other 2nd year guys, but all you ever hear is how superior McCoy and Bradford are at passing despite what the Stats say.

The fact that 5 teams showed interest in a Tebow is enough for me to believe that there are at least other teams out ther willing to give it a shot. Plenty of teams are willing to let their young QB's have several bad to mediocre years before they move on. I think the Jets are towards the end of Sanchez trial period and it is time for him to break out, if not Tebow is a legitimate backup plan.

All in all he is far from great, but far from hopeless, pretty much the same I have heard all the rational Tebow posters state.

[Shiloh]

Anti Tebowites (yes its a cult) automatically assume that any praise given to Tebow (no matter how small) is an indication that the person giving the praise thinks he was solely responsible for winning a game .

Here is what I think and what actually is reality:


Tebow was not the only reason the Broncos completely turned around that abysmal record and ended 8-5 with a playoff win and of course
The Denver defense and the kicking game had as much to do with it .

BUT without Tebow the Broncos do not go 8-5 into the playoffs , as Tebow is one of the 3 pieces that were neccessary to get that accomplished (Quinn and Orton would not have had that success running the same offense) .

Therefore Tebow deserves as much credit for the turn around as the defense and the kicking game and if not as much quite a bit (he was one of the 3 pieces) .

This...well said.

[abyzmul]

That's a nice spin. Again, the Jets couldn't afford Manning and Sanchez. The Broncos could have easily afforded Manning and Tebow. Tebow posed no legit threat to Manning and if he was such a successful young QB Denver would never have let him go for a 4th round pick 2 years after spending a first on him. Furthermore, don't you think a few more NFL GM's would have also recognized this great "successful QB" that you Tebow fans seem to see and offer more than a measly 4th round pick? This league is STARVING for successful young QB's and teams will give up a kings ransom to move up in the draft at merely the CHANCE of a successful young QB. Imagine what they would offer for a proven successful young QB.

Get this straight people, Tebow posed zero threat to Manning. That's a ridiculous argument made up by people who want to believe in their hero. You guys are living in dream land.

He's totally awesome if you throw out completion percentage and passes that look like they were thrown by Brad Smith in a windstorm.

[Demosthenes9]

He's totally awesome if you throw out completion percentage and passes that look like they were thrown by Brad Smith in a windstorm.

Actually, you accidentally hit on a good point. Tebow CAN pass the ball, his problem is that he can't do it CONSISTENTLY. :)

[VanderbiltJets]

If one of them wins a playoff game next year you will be shouting "HOF shoe-in!"

But if they play like Tebow, they're out of the NFL at the end of their contracts.

[VanderbiltJets]

Tebow set the all time NFL record for fourth quarter comebacks in first 16 NFL starts with 6.

Comebacks mean less than wins. How many of those games did Tebow create the points by pass or rush to get the win?

[abyzmul]

Actually, you accidentally hit on a good point. Tebow CAN pass the ball, his problem is that he can't do it CONSISTENTLY. :)

I never disputed Tebow's accomplishments, I've watched entire games with him in there and wondered where some of those final drive passes were for the first 3 & 1/2 quarters, he threw some frozen rupees under pressure. But the majority of the passes I saw him throw were sickeningly bad.

[CowboysFan]

Comebacks mean less than wins. How many of those games did Tebow create the points by pass or rush to get the win?

all of them. He either got the TD by passing or rush or the two pointer by rush or secured the drive that scored the field goal...all in the clutch.

Tebow is not a great QB, but he really truly is a clutch player. This guy is going to help the Jets.

[CowboysFan]

I never disputed Tebow's accomplishments, I've watched entire games with him in there and wondered where some of those final drive passes were for the first 3 & 1/2 quarters, he threw some frozen rupees under pressure. But the majority of the passes I saw him throw were sickeningly bad.

But its only his first 16 starts, why does he not get a chance like every other QB to develop? he certainly accomplished more than most in their first 16 starts.

This is the foundation of why I am on the tebot side. When the name Tebow is mentioned , logic shuts off and he is judged as if here were a 7 year veteran on a Cadillac team.

[packersfan]

But its only his first 16 starts, why does he not get a chance like every other QB to develop? he certainly accomplished more than most in their first 16 starts.

This is the foundation of why I am on the tebot side. When the name Tebow is mentioned , logic shuts off and he is judged as if here were a 7 year veteran on a Cadillac team.
I agree. Like I said before Aaron Rodgers was terrible his first two years as a backup. Most Packer fans were calling for him to be cut. It takes a while for most college quarterbacks to adjust to the speed of the pro game. With Tebow you have to add that he has some serious work to do as a thrower, but he is unique in the intangibles he brings. Even though I don't think he is ready to be a starter yet in this league, I will continue to support him as long as so many talking heads bash him.

[packersfan]

By the way, I can support him and still believe Sanchez is the starter and should be. This Jets team can be good this year if Sanchez does what I think he will.

[VanderbiltJets]

the drive that scored the field goal...all in the clutch.

So he kicked field goals? Or he always ensured that the field goals were very easy to make for Prater (the asshole douchetwat)?

[packersfan]

I never disputed Tebow's accomplishments, I've watched entire games with him in there and wondered where some of those final drive passes were for the first 3 & 1/2 quarters, he threw some frozen rupees under pressure. But the majority of the passes I saw him throw were sickeningly bad.
I have had those same thought myself. I can't figure it out, it is like two totally different quarterbacks.

[packersfan]

So he kicked field goals? Or he always ensured that the field goals were very easy to make for Prater (the asshole douchetwat)?
Any non biased football fan knows Denvers kicking game was ridiculous down the stretch. The defense was also very good at times. The point some people are trying to make is that maybe just maybe Tebows leadership abilities effected the rest of the team. It also could be that the team just coincidentally jelled at time.

[Demosthenes9]

I never disputed Tebow's accomplishments, I've watched entire games with him in there and wondered where some of those final drive passes were for the first 3 & 1/2 quarters, he threw some frozen rupees under pressure. But the majority of the passes I saw him throw were sickeningly bad.

I have had those same thought myself. I can't figure it out, it is like two totally different quarterbacks.

In most cases, Tebow's "great" performances have come in the 4th Q, when Denver was trailing and McCoy threw out the "normal" playbook and had Tebow operating out of the Spread.

Heck, just look at the drive against the Jet's. Huge majority of the plays came from shotgun formation with 3, 4, or 5 receivers.

[VanderbiltJets]

Any non biased football fan knows Denvers kicking game was ridiculous down the stretch. The defense was also very good at times. The point some people are trying to make is that maybe just maybe Tebows leadership abilities effected the rest of the team. It also could be that the team just coincidentally jelled at time.

Definitely. Leadership doesn't create made FG's. In four of Denver's wins they had FG's of 51, 46, 53, and 52 to win or tie the game. I wish Tebow had the ability to make Folk better but he doesn't.

[Demosthenes9]

Definitely. Leadership doesn't create made FG's. In four of Denver's wins they had FG's of 51, 46, 53, and 52 to win or tie the game. I wish Tebow had the ability to make Folk better but he doesn't.

Leadership might very well create situations where a made FG wins the game for you :)

[CowboysFan]

So he kicked field goals? Or he always ensured that the field goals were very easy to make for Prater (the asshole douchetwat)?


Here is what I think. The most famous of prater's field goals came in the Bears game.
What is lost in the amazing field goal to tie the game and send it into overtime and then the field goal that won it in over time is that Tebow was 18 of 24 for 191 yards and a TD in that 10 minute stretch.
Every one talks about the field goal and even SNL lampooned it with a skit but no one mentions Tebow's cartoon like stats in the clutch.

Of course Prater is all that matters and 18 of 24 for 191 and a TD in 589 seconds is crap.

[Bannon]

Here is what I think. The most famous of prater's field goals came in the Bears game.
What is lost in the amazing field goal to tie the game and send it into overtime and then the field goal that won it in over time is that Tebow was 18 of 24 for 191 yards and a TD in that 10 minute stretch.
Every one talks about the field goal and even SNL lampooned it with a skit but no one mentions Tebow's cartoon like stats in the clutch.

Of course Prater is all that matters and 18 of 24 for 191 and a TD in 589 seconds is crap.

Especially relevant if you're trying to evaluate Tebow's potential. Everybody seems so energized to tear him down and make sure the world understands he's not as good as somebody else, that the flashed of brilliance just get skimmed over.

I think the idea is to see if he can continue developing (like any quarterback) and make those bursts be the norm instead of game-ending.

I know one thing -- Tebow seems to be enough of a curveball, good enough at certain things, to force defenses to throw some junk at him. He always seemed to face something other than the other side's base defense. As soon as he can get things figured out, and the OC can play-call against the odd defenses, he could have the ability to dictate.

[CowboysFan]

But if they play like Tebow, they're out of the NFL at the end of their contracts.

? you mean like win a playoff game as a starter with the worst team in the NFL in a 31 game stretch before he took a snap?

Please somehow prove that statement wrong. The bar for a 16 game starter is off the charts when the name Tebow is mentioned.

[VanderbiltJets]

? you mean like win a playoff game as a starter with the worst team in the NFL in a 31 game stretch before he took a snap?

Please somehow prove that statement wrong. The bar for a 16 game starter is off the charts when the name Tebow is mentioned.

It was a joke, meaning they play the QB position differently.

[VanderbiltJets]

Leadership might very well create situations where a made FG wins the game for you :)

Yes. However, nobody remembers the QB's that lead their teams to potentially game winning Field Goal opportunities only to watch the kicker miss.

n74KEn5ZThc

Here is what I think. The most famous of prater's field goals came in the Bears game.
What is lost in the amazing field goal to tie the game and send it into overtime and then the field goal that won it in over time is that Tebow was 18 of 24 for 191 yards and a TD in that 10 minute stretch.
Every one talks about the field goal and even SNL lampooned it with a skit but no one mentions Tebow's cartoon like stats in the clutch.

Of course Prater is all that matters and 18 of 24 for 191 and a TD in 589 seconds is crap.

The issue isn't whether Tebow's performance was crap or not. The question is, however, who won the game? Tebow was the set-up man and Prater the closer.

[Demosthenes9]

Yes. However, nobody remembers the QB's that lead their teams to potentially game winning Field Goal opportunities only to watch the kicker miss.

Very true. The kicker has to make the kicks :)





The issue isn't whether Tebow's performance was crap or not. The question is, however, who won the game? Tebow was the set-up man and Prater the closer.

Elway almost universally noted for "The Drive". What people tend to forget is that "The Drive" didn't win the game, but rather, forced it into overtime where Rich Karlis "won" the game on a FG.

It's the nature of the QB position; if the QB engineers a drive that leads to a game winning score, then the QB "won" the game.

It's the same way that people talk about Sanchez winning that playoff game over Manning and the Colts in 2010.

[VanderbiltJets]

It's the nature of the QB position; if the QB engineers a drive that leads to a game winning score, then the QB "won" the game.

I don't strictly break it down to "who scored the final points that decided the victory?"; instead, I perceive the QB's role through the probability of field goal success-- setting the kicker up for a FG that they (statistically) should be expected to make. Getting the ball at or inside the 28 yard line will raise the kicker's expected probability of making a FG above 50%.

[Demosthenes9]

I don't strictly break it down to "who scored the final points that decided the victory?"; instead, I perceive the QB's role through the probability of field goal success-- setting the kicker up for a FG that they (statistically) should be expected to make. Getting the ball at or inside the 28 yard line will raise the kicker's expected probability of making a FG above 50%.

huh ??

10char

[#1 Jets Fan]

But its only his first 16 starts, why does he not get a chance like every other QB to develop? he certainly accomplished more than most in their first 16 starts.

This is the foundation of why I am on the tebot side. When the name Tebow is mentioned , logic shuts off and he is judged as if here were a 7 year veteran on a Cadillac team.Name me one QB who sucked as bad as Tebow does at throwing the ball and got drafted? He will never develop into a good passer. No player thats that bad at throwing the ball will ever develop into a passing QB. Why u think opition QB never get drafted?

[Demosthenes9]

Name me one QB who sucked as bad as Tebow does at throwing the ball and got drafted? He will never develop into a good passer. No player thats that bad at throwing the ball will ever develop into a passing QB. Why u think opition QB never get drafted?

What makes you think he was bad at throwing the ball in college ? I mean, he had better passing stats than Peyton Manning.

[Bannon]

The issue isn't whether Tebow's performance was crap or not. The question is, however, who won the game? Tebow was the set-up man and Prater the closer.

But why is that the issue -- isn't the only relevance of that game to the Jets (and Jets fans) is whether it revealed potential in Tebow? In evaluating a player, you have to look at what he did. And it seems like the response to a very good performance (against a very good defense) is "the kicker did it and Marion Barber ran out of bounds." Those are reasons why the game was won, but Tebow's 18-24 close out remains.

[FakeSpike13]

Not only did they trade him for nothing, they took all photos of Tebow out of the training facility Dove Valley. Elway wanted him gone like the plague.

I'm fairly certain this is common practice when a player is traded or released...

[FakeSpike13]

But its only his first 16 starts, why does he not get a chance like every other QB to develop? he certainly accomplished more than most in their first 16 starts.

This is the foundation of why I am on the tebot side. When the name Tebow is mentioned , logic shuts off and he is judged as if here were a 7 year veteran on a Cadillac team.

This is what baffles me as well...People evaluate Tebow through a prism as if he is some sort of seasoned veteran, and not evaluating him as a first year starter...Through his first 16 starts he did pretty darn well.

He'll never be the most accurate passer in the world, but with more experience, he'll at least know what defenses are doing and know where to go with the ball, which will increase his completion % exponentially.

The fact that Tebow was inexperienced and often just simply didn't know where to go with the ball had every bit as much to do with his suspect passing numbers as his accuracy did.

In most cases, Tebow's "great" performances have come in the 4th Q, when Denver was trailing and McCoy threw out the "normal" playbook and had Tebow operating out of the Spread.

Heck, just look at the drive against the Jet's. Huge majority of the plays came from shotgun formation with 3, 4, or 5 receivers.

This was my feeling as well...I watched all of Tebow's games last year (Sunday Ticket coupled with a DVR is a godsend!!) and they seldomly had more than 2 recievers running routes until the end of games when they had no choice. Once Tebow had 4 or 5 recievers out there, he played really well.

[catfish]

This is what baffles me as well...People evaluate Tebow through a prism as if he is some sort of seasoned veteran, and not evaluating him as a first year starter...Through his first 16 starts he did pretty darn well.

He'll never be the most accurate passer in the world, but with more experience, he'll at least know what defenses are doing and know where to go with the ball, which will increase his completion % exponentially.

The fact that Tebow was inexperienced and often just simply didn't know where to go with the ball had every bit as much to do with his suspect passing numbers as his accuracy did.



This was my feeling as well...I watched all of Tebow's games last year (Sunday Ticket coupled with a DVR is a godsend!!) and they seldomly had more than 2 recievers running routes until the end of games when they had no choice. Once Tebow had 4 or 5 recievers out there, he played really well.

out of curiosity did you see many checkdown options? I kind of felt they were using Tebows feet as the #1 checkdown on several occasions, but it could have just been my perception

[Demosthenes9]

out of curiosity did you see many checkdown options? I kind of felt they were using Tebows feet as the #1 checkdown on several occasions, but it could have just been my perception

A little of both imo. There were times when a back was the check down and Tebow clearly saw him, but didn't throw to him. Not sure if it was a trust issue ? Or Tebow wanting to go for more yards / bigger play ?

[catfish]

A little of both imo. There were times when a back was the check down and Tebow clearly saw him, but didn't throw to him. Not sure if it was a trust issue ? Or Tebow wanting to go for more yards / bigger play ?

I saw in Gruden's qb camp one of the things Gruden brought up was Tebow was maybe too often greedy for the home run ball, hopefully he grows out of it...thank for the response

[Demosthenes9]

I saw in Gruden's qb camp one of the things Gruden brought up was Tebow was maybe too often greedy for the home run ball, hopefully he grows out of it...thank for the response

You're welcome.

As for being greedy, yeah, he needs to take what the defense gives him at times.

[FakeSpike13]

out of curiosity did you see many checkdown options? I kind of felt they were using Tebows feet as the #1 checkdown on several occasions, but it could have just been my perception

Tebow was the #1 checkdown option mostly...More often than not, the RB's and TE's were left in for max protection and Tebow just scrambled if the 2 WR's weren't open.

I thought the Broncos probably should have ran more easy screen plays for the RB, as they rarely did so. These simple plays can help a QB build confidence and build some rythm, but for whatever reason, they hardly ran screens. Their formula ended up getting them to the divisional round though, so maybe the coaching staff knew what they were doing, but I thought the playcalling had room for improvement.

[catfish]

Tebow was the #1 checkdown option mostly...More often than not, the RB's and TE's were left in for max protection and Tebow just scrambled if the 2 WR's weren't open.

I thought the Broncos probably should have ran more easy screen plays for the RB, as they rarely did so. These simple plays can help a QB build confidence and build some rythm, but for whatever reason, they hardly ran screens. Their formula ended up getting them to the divisional round though, so maybe the coaching staff knew what they were doing, but I thought the playcalling had room for improvement.

thank you for the response

[CowboysFan]

Name me one QB who sucked as bad as Tebow does at throwing the ball and got drafted? He will never develop into a good passer. No player thats that bad at throwing the ball will ever develop into a passing QB. Why u think opition QB never get drafted?

Like I said when the name Tebow is mentioned logic switches off in some people's brains.

[CowboysFan]

Tebow was the #1 checkdown option mostly...More often than not, the RB's and TE's were left in for max protection and Tebow just scrambled if the 2 WR's weren't open.

I thought the Broncos probably should have ran more easy screen plays for the RB, as they rarely did so. These simple plays can help a QB build confidence and build some rythm, but for whatever reason, they hardly ran screens. Their formula ended up getting them to the divisional round though, so maybe the coaching staff knew what they were doing, but I thought the playcalling had room for improvement.

This +10000000000000000

[VanderbiltJets]

huh ??

10char

At or within the 28 yard line (i.e. a 45 yard field goal or less) the average NFL kicker has greater than a 50% chance of making said FG, according to raw data. IMO if the quarterback sets his kicker up for a FG that he, statistically, should make, then the QB has done his job.

[catfish]

At or within the 28 yard line (i.e. a 45 yard field goal or less) the average NFL kicker has greater than a 50% chance of making said FG, according to raw data. IMO if the quarterback sets his kicker up for a FG that he, statistically, should make, then the QB has done his job.

the numbers on Prater are pretty interesting. As much as he is being touted for some clutch kicks, he didn't contribute as much as one would expect. Pretty much in line with the Jets Nick Folk. I was actually pretty suprised

[Demosthenes9]

At or within the 28 yard line (i.e. a 45 yard field goal or less) the average NFL kicker has greater than a 50% chance of making said FG, according to raw data. IMO if the quarterback sets his kicker up for a FG that he, statistically, should make, then the QB has done his job.

ok, gotcha, and agree completely.

(I thought you might have been saying that the QB shouldn't get any credit if the team got the ball at the 28 yard line, or even closer. Was like, "Duh". :) )


BTW, when playing in Denver, you can add something like 5-8 yards onto that distance due to the altitude and thinner air.

[red75bronco]

out of curiosity did you see many checkdown options? I kind of felt they were using Tebows feet as the #1 checkdown on several occasions, but it could have just been my perception

Have you seen him throw it to a check down? The guy is 10 yards from him and the throw is 5 yards short. I live in Denver, everyone except old ladies are so glad Tebow is gone. Everyone realizes how lucky he was last year and it cannot be repeated. How many teams has Tebow beat twice? He scored 3 points against the Chiefs in a clutch game to win the division. I don't want to hear how clutch he is, he sucked that game and most games. He is only successful in the spread. Once teams got tape on it, Denver lost. If Tebow plays any considerable amount for the Jets, they will go 6-10.

[FakeSpike13]

Have you seen him throw it to a check down? The guy is 10 yards from him and the throw is 5 yards short. I live in Denver, everyone except old ladies are so glad Tebow is gone. Everyone realizes how lucky he was last year and it cannot be repeated. How many teams has Tebow beat twice? He scored 3 points against the Chiefs in a clutch game to win the division. I don't want to hear how clutch he is, he sucked that game and most games. He is only successful in the spread. Once teams got tape on it, Denver lost. If Tebow plays any considerable amount for the Jets, they will go 6-10.

If you Denver fans knew anything about football you would know that the Broncos rarely ran the spread....

They mostly ran the option out of a bunch formation...Only when they were forced to throw at the end did they run something that could be called a spread offense.

Option offense does not necessarily = spread offense....don't get the two confused.

[CowboysFan]

Have you seen him throw it to a check down? The guy is 10 yards from him and the throw is 5 yards short. I live in Denver, everyone except old ladies are so glad Tebow is gone. Everyone realizes how lucky he was last year and it cannot be repeated. How many teams has Tebow beat twice? He scored 3 points against the Chiefs in a clutch game to win the division. I don't want to hear how clutch he is, he sucked that game and most games. He is only successful in the spread. Once teams got tape on it, Denver lost. If Tebow plays any considerable amount for the Jets, they will go 6-10.

I belong to the broncos forums for years and the only way I can say it is this way:

You are not telling the truth.

Tebow had a legion of fans in Denver and still does.

Your "once the team got tape on it" exposes you as well.


lets review the late season losses :

New England : Tebow had one of his best games of the year throwing for 200 and running for 120 "the tape they had did nothing"

Buffalo Bills : tebow was playing well and the offense was moving well until midway through the 3rd quarter when the Bills took a big lead and the read otpion was abandoned for pass first offense . Tebow played the worst quarter of his life but it had nothing to do with tape.

Kansas City : bad game but the Chiefs also stopped Green bay! IN fact they did the same thing they did the first game when there was no tape.

Steelers: Great game, tape did nothing and they stacked the box because they had to or tebow would have had 200 yards rushing (he had 50 and a TD with 9 in a box all day as it was).

New England : scored 35 points by half time , offensive game plan abandoned. Tape on tebow had no bearing on outcome.

[red75bronco]

Not a denver fan, but nice try only live in Denver. Nobodyb is sad to see him leave and think the Jets are a joke for trading for him. 4 out of the five games you are talking about are loll loses and Tebow played like crap. Look at his QB rating as well as yards per rush. They dropped significantly. If he was not part of the losses, then don't give him credit for the wins. Bottom line, your "winner" lost 4 of 5.

[Demosthenes9]

Not a denver fan, but nice try only live in Denver. Nobodyb is sad to see him leave and think the Jets are a joke for trading for him. 4 out of the five games you are talking about are loll loses and Tebow played like crap. Look at his QB rating as well as yards per rush. They dropped significantly. If he was not part of the losses, then don't give him credit for the wins. Bottom line, your "winner" lost 4 of 5.

Actually, there's a very simple reason explaining why it is you are wrong. If the OC draws up a great game plan and calls the right plays, the QB still has to EXECUTE that game plan, run those plays and throw those passes. When he does so, most people will give him the credit for the win.

If the OC draws up a terrible game plan, bad play calls, wrong protection schemes, wrong "constraint" plays, etc, the team will probably lose.

Think about the Pitt game. Do people blame Troy Polamalu or Harrison ? Nope. They blame Dick LaBeau's game plan for the most part.

[#1 Jets Fan]

Like I said when the name Tebow is mentioned logic switches off in some people's brains.I think u must be talking about u. Do u really think from what u seen from Tebow throwing the ball he would be a starting QB right now?

[red75bronco]

Actually, there's a very simple reason explaining why it is you are wrong. If the OC draws up a great game plan and calls the right plays, the QB still has to EXECUTE that game plan, run those plays and throw those passes. When he does so, most people will give him the credit for the win.

If the OC draws up a terrible game plan, bad play calls, wrong protection schemes, wrong "constraint" plays, etc, the team will probably lose.

Think about the Pitt game. Do people blame Troy Polamalu or Harrison ? Nope. They blame Dick LaBeau's game plan for the most part.

So, Sanchez is 4-2 in the playoffs and a winner, Tebow is 1-1 and mediocre at best. The funny thing is, your reasoning for why Tebow is great, when applied to Sanchez makes Sanchez the beter QB. Better win percentage, beter playoff win percentage, etc.
Bottom line, Elway did not think Tebow would be positive part of the Broncos going forward. He felt strong enough about that to give the JETS 2.5M to insure the trade happened. And, Tebow chose NY not because of the chance to he a starting QB, but because it is a bigger stage to promote his cause. He has stated this in the past that his cause/message was more important than football. If he wanted to be the guy, he would have went to Jacksonville.

[Demosthenes9]

So, Sanchez is 4-2 in the playoffs and a winner, Tebow is 1-1 and mediocre at best. The funny thing is, your reasoning for why Tebow is great, when applied to Sanchez makes Sanchez the beter QB. Better win percentage, beter playoff win percentage, etc.


Bottom line, Elway did not think Tebow would be positive part of the Broncos going forward. He felt strong enough about that to give the JETS 2.5M to insure the trade happened. And, Tebow chose NY not because of the chance to he a starting QB, but because it is a bigger stage to promote his cause. He has stated this in the past that his cause/message was more important than football. If he wanted to be the guy, he would have went to Jacksonville.

As of the end of last season, Sanchez was the better QB in my opinion and I have said so repeatedly. Sanchez also has the benefit of having more experience with more snaps as a starter, so he SHOULD be a better QB than Tebow.

As for coming to the Jet's, why wouldn't Tebow prefer to go to a team where the coaches actually wanted him and had a role for him to play, versus going to a team where the coaches and the FO would resent having him forced down their throats by the owner ?

[displacedfan]

Actually, there's a very simple reason explaining why it is you are wrong. If the OC draws up a great game plan and calls the right plays, the QB still has to EXECUTE that game plan, run those plays and throw those passes. When he does so, most people will give him the credit for the win.

If the OC draws up a terrible game plan, bad play calls, wrong protection schemes, wrong "constraint" plays, etc, the team will probably lose.

Think about the Pitt game. Do people blame Troy Polamalu or Harrison ? Nope. They blame Dick LaBeau's game plan for the most part.

I'm not sure what you are arguing exactly, but football isn't that black and white Players not executing can lead to the OC then panicking and choosing bad plays etc. Also a OC can draw up a terrible game play, but the players could make plays and make it look brilliant. On the opposite end, the OC could draw a beautiful gameplan the players can ruin it.

It is best to judge a playcall before you see the result. However by the time you see the formation, the routes/blocking/etc, the play is over and people judge the play based on what happened. I think the best relation is when a player takes a shot in basketball. Kobe takes lots of bad shots, but they are overlooked because they go in the basket. Just because they go in, doesn't mean its a good shot. On the other hand if he is cold and is wide open and misses a 3, it is not a bad shot. It is a good shot, but the ball didn't happen to go in.

[Demosthenes9]

I'm not sure what you are arguing exactly, but football isn't that black and white Players not executing can lead to the OC then panicking and choosing bad plays etc. Also a OC can draw up a terrible game play, but the players could make plays and make it look brilliant. On the opposite end, the OC could draw a beautiful gameplan the players can ruin it.

It is best to judge a playcall before you see the result. However by the time you see the formation, the routes/blocking/etc, the play is over and people judge the play based on what happened. I think the best relation is when a player takes a shot in basketball. Kobe takes lots of bad shots, but they are overlooked because they go in the basket. Just because they go in, doesn't mean its a good shot. On the other hand if he is cold and is wide open and misses a 3, it is not a bad shot. It is a good shot, but the ball didn't happen to go in.

Thing is, people were often calling the plays BEFORE the Broncs lined up on the LoS. Seriously. They were that predictable. People were apoplectic about it in "game day" threads.

Also, you can look at the defensive alignment and understand what kind of plays to run against it. Then, you look at the plays that were run and you just shake your head. In the playoff game against the Pats for example, they were running a 5-2 defense. Some might argue that it was actually a 3-4, but that they ran a lot of blitzes, but, when you have 3 down linemen and 2 LBs standing on the LoS and all of them rushing for most of the game, that's a 50 defense.

If you are running option, spread, or spread option and are faced with a 5-2, there are a number of ways to attack it. McCoy's playcalling shows that he apparently either didn't realize they were in a 5-2, or, he didn't know how to attack it as he kept going right to the strength of it.


BTW, I'm not saying that Tebow didn't play a bad game. He missed some passes that he should have hit and he made a couple of bad reads/decisions on Option plays. Did find out later that some of those bad option reads came after he was injured, which might explain why he handed the ball off when he should have kept it and ran.

[CowboysFan]

I think u must be talking about u. Do u really think from what u seen from Tebow throwing the ball he would be a starting QB right now?

he was an 8-5 with a team that was the worst in the NFL going back 2 years. yeah I think he can start at QB.

[Chrebet86]

he was an 8-5 with a team that was the worst in the NFL going back 2 years. yeah I think he can start at QB.

HE was blah blah blah, WITH the worst team in the league over th past span of blah blah blah kyle orton in comparison bal blah BLAH. Youre like a broken record dude.

The bolded parts up there pretty much say everything there is to know about your opinion.

Its biased.

You can swear up and down that Tebow didnt win the games by himself but you obviously believe that tebow is just so unbelievably good that he won in spite of his team.

Which is utterly ridiculous.

He was JUST good enough to get it done WITH the help of his team mates.

Thats why there was always comebacks and last minute dramatic incredible victories because he was JUST good enough to get it done when it mattered.

Trust me, thats a great quality to have, hes a great player. The Jets have gone after him because of these traits and his desire to win. He can apply those qualities and traits in other roles better suited to him though.

This is not going to be the Denver Broncos 2.0, they are going to try something completely different.

If shit goes south might they change it up, of course. It could be they cut the Tebow packages out, or it could be that they try something similar to what the broncos did, but I believe that would only happen after they completely exhausted all possibilities with Mark Sanchez which wouldnt happen till the 4th qtr of the season.

Of course thats a possibility, however as of right now thats all it is. A possibility.

The assumed reality that the team is going on is that this guy Tebow is...well just another guy on the team, not THE team which you have so clearly illustrated is your belief.

[Bannon]

HE was blah blah blah, WITH the worst team in the league over th past span of blah blah blah kyle orton in comparison bal blah BLAH. Youre like a broken record dude.

The bolded parts up there pretty much say everything there is to know about your opinion.


Because he used the words "he" and "with?" :lol:

[Chrebet86]

yea, in the context he used it, those were the telling points of his opinion.

[ROCaMOB]

As of the end of last season, Sanchez was thse better QB in my opinion and I have said so repeatedly. Sanchez also has the benefit of having more experience with more snaps as a starter, so he SHOULD be a better QB than Tebow.

As for coming to the Jet's, why wouldn't Tebow prefer to go to a team where the coaches actually wanted him and had a role for him to play, versus going to a team where the coaches and the FO would resent having him forced down their throats by the owner ?

So you are saying experience has a major role in the 2 players progressions?Are you accounting for the 33 more college games tebow played over Sanchez?

So lets compare after their first 16 games. Tebow comes into the league with 55 college games under his belt. He then sits behind tbe starter for about a season rand learns the offense. He surprises the league with a gimmick thats figured out by years end. Pulls out a nice win in Pittsburgh (i guess lebeau didnt watch tape of the last 5 games) and then gets slaughtered by NE (his new division rival).

Mark sanchez is drafted with 22 college games under his belt to the media capitol of the world where the in town rival is fesh off a sb win. He starts from day one in an offense he had to learn under center. Has ups and downs at start of the year but finishes up strong. Goes into san Diego and cinci and plays lights out. Wins 2 road games and makes it to afc chamlionship game. Outplays a hall of fame qb in the first half only to have his team blow a lead (see peyton manning/lito Sheppard) in the second half.

go ahead and bring up how you think sanchez regressed last year and then ill tell you a little story about 2 men named schottenheimer and hunter. Where tebow had an OC that ran an offense fit for his skill set sanchez had the opposite. Along with the worst RT in football.

Tebow can't put up the points to beat the pats. Sanchez can and has. In the regular season in the playoffs in new england.

[Chrebet86]

So you are saying experience has a major role in the 2 players progressions?Are you accounting for the 33 more college games tebow played over Sanchez?

So lets compare after their first 16 games. Tebow comes into the league with 55 college games under his belt. He then sits behind tbe starter for about a season rand learns the offense. He surprises the league with a gimmick thats figured out by years end. Pulls out a nice win in Pittsburgh (i guess lebeau didnt watch tape of the last 5 games) and then gets slaughtered by NE (his new division rival).

Mark sanchez is drafted with 22 college games under his belt to the media capitol of the world where the in town rival is fesh off a sb win. He starts from day one in an offense he had to learn under center. Has ups and downs at start of the year but finishes up strong. Goes into san Diego and cinci and plays lights out. Wins 2 road games and makes it to afc chamlionship game. Outplays a hall of fame qb in the first half only to have his team blow a lead (see peyton manning/lito Sheppard) in the second half.

go ahead and bring up how you think sanchez regressed last year and then ill tell you a little story about 2 men named schottenheimer and hunter. Where tebow had an OC that ran an offense fit for his skill set sanchez had the opposite. Along with the worst RT in football.

Tebow can't put up the points to beat the pats. Sanchez can and has. In the regular season in the playoffs in new england.

I could be wrong, because im not doing research on a forum but from his post and yours it seems you both understand that Sanchez will be the starting Qb and be handing of and giving a few snaps to a gadget player named Tebow.

This is going to be an exciting offense to watch.

With a utility guy like Tebow with his abilities to spice up a Sanchez led offense, man i cant wait.

[NJGREEN]

Next season is gonna rule....I cant wsit for the threads...

[ROCaMOB]

What makes you think he was bad at throwing the ball in college ? I mean, he had better passing stats than Peyton Manning.

Im pretty sure kliff kingsbury did too

[ROCaMOB]

I could be wrong, because im not doing research on a forum but from his post and yours it seems you both understand that Sanchez will be the starting Qb and be handing of and giving a few snaps to a gadget player named Tebow.

This is going to be an exciting offense to watch.

With a utility guy like Tebow with his abilities to spice up a Sanchez led offense, man i cant wait.

I understand that's how the season will start. But when you trade for a polarizing character and most popular backup qb ever to a team thats so poorly managed you are asking for a qb controversy that shouldn't be there.
The te-tards will be calling for Sanchez's head by week 3of the pre season.and thisfront office will eveventually over react and set this team back another 5 years

[Chrebet86]

I understand that's how the season will start. But when you trade for a polarizing character and most popular backup qb ever to a team thats so poorly managed you are asking for a qb controversy that shouldn't be there.
The te-tards will be calling for Sanchez's head by week 3of the pre season.and thisfront office will eveventually over react and set this team back another 5 years

Nah man. Thats just all the specualtion and media machine gettin to ya.

We werent as bad a team last year as was made out to be, just terribly inconsistent. we arent doing a major overhaul we are just finally committing to what weve been sayin for the past 3 years.

GROUND AND POUND.

1st move, fire schotty. done
2nd, Sparano, likes power running
3rd, Tebow, perfect fit for his role in this O, aka not QB

This is gonna be great.

[ROCaMOB]

Nah man. Thats just all the specualtion and media machine gettin to ya.

We werent as bad a team last year as was made out to be, just terribly inconsistent. we arent doing a major overhaul we are just finally committing to what weve been sayin for the past 3 years.

GROUND AND POUND.

1st move, fire schotty. done
2nd, Sparano, likes power running
3rd, Tebow, perfect fit for his role in this O, aka not QB

This is gonna be great.

You have obviously been a jets fan before this fiasco but i gotta know do you watch the moves this team makes? The owner is interested in one thing - media coverage. They dont mention mark sancbez name 100 times in 40 mins on sports center. We will reconvene week 8 and see where fhis stands. I jhst have no faith in this front office. But for both our sake i hope YOU are right!

[red75bronco]

Thing is, people were often calling the plays BEFORE the Broncs lined up on the LoS. Seriously. They were that predictable. People were apoplectic about it in "game day" threads.

Also, you can look at the defensive alignment and understand what kind of plays to run against it. Then, you look at the plays that were run and you just shake your head. In the playoff game against the Pats for example, they were running a 5-2 defense. Some might argue that it was actually a 3-4, but that they ran a lot of blitzes, but, when you have 3 down linemen and 2 LBs standing on the LoS and all of them rushing for most of the game, that's a 50 defense.

If you are running option, spread, or spread option and are faced with a 5-2, there are a number of ways to attack it. McCoy's playcalling shows that he apparently either didn't realize they were in a 5-2, or, he didn't know how to attack it as he kept going right to the strength of it.


BTW, I'm not saying that Tebow didn't play a bad game. He missed some passes that he should have hit and he made a couple of bad reads/decisions on Option plays. Did find out later that some of those bad option reads came after he was injured, which might explain why he handed the ball off when he should have kept it and ran.

How can you complain about an offensive coordinator and FO that completely changed the offense and some personnel to suit Tebows strengths? I really dislike the Broncos, but you have to give the coaching staff all the credit in the world on how they revamped the offense to a college type offense. Problem is once it is on tape and teams have seen it on the field, it doesn't work any more as your base offense. Denver knows this, most of the league knows this.

[Demosthenes9]

So you are saying experience has a major role in the 2 players progressions?Are you accounting for the 33 more college games tebow played over Sanchez?

So lets compare after their first 16 games. Tebow comes into the league with 55 college games under his belt. He then sits behind tbe starter for about a season rand learns the offense. He surprises the league with a gimmick thats figured out by years end. Pulls out a nice win in Pittsburgh (i guess lebeau didnt watch tape of the last 5 games) and then gets slaughtered by NE (his new division rival).

Mark sanchez is drafted with 22 college games under his belt to the media capitol of the world where the in town rival is fesh off a sb win. He starts from day one in an offense he had to learn under center. Has ups and downs at start of the year but finishes up strong. Goes into san Diego and cinci and plays lights out. Wins 2 road games and makes it to afc chamlionship game. Outplays a hall of fame qb in the first half only to have his team blow a lead (see peyton manning/lito Sheppard) in the second half.

go ahead and bring up how you think sanchez regressed last year and then ill tell you a little story about 2 men named schottenheimer and hunter. Where tebow had an OC that ran an offense fit for his skill set sanchez had the opposite. Along with the worst RT in football.

Tebow can't put up the points to beat the pats. Sanchez can and has. In the regular season in the playoffs in new england.

Sure, Tebow had more experience in college with 3 years as a starter and coming in and running certain packages during his Freshman year. No doubt about that.

Sanchez had the benefit of working in a "pro style" offense at USC and taking snaps under center. IIRC, Tebow didn't take a snap from under center until he got to the NFL. He ran spread option at Nease High School and also at Florida.

Sanchez has more NFL experience. Quite a bit more. That can't be discounted. It gives a QB a chance to learn what "NFL speed" is as far as the defense goes. You know, just how fast defenders can close on the ball in coverage.

It also gives the QB the opportunity to watch NFL defenses from right on the field, a "first person" view, as opposed to seeing things on tape, which might be from different perspectives. This is important in better learning how to read defenses. You can see how defenders turn their hips or shoulders out in certain circumstances. Basically, little "tells" giving away the coverage they will be in.

I guess if you want, you can try to compare the level of experience that each have, but I'd take the NFL experience over the college experience in a heartbeat.

As far as the "regression" from last year, believe it or not, we see it much the same way. When I was on the Denver forum, I kept getting accused of making excuses when I pointed out that McCoy's play calling sucked. It sucked overall while Tebow was QB AND it sucked when Orton was QB. Then again, McCoy had virtually no experience actually running an offense or calling plays. In 2010, McDaniels ran the offense and did the play calling right up until he got fired. Then, when Studesville was named as interim coach for the last 4 games of the 2010 season, McCoy took over the play calling for the first time.

And no, McCoy and Fox did not run an offense best geared towards Tebow's skill set. To do that, they should have run the Spread Option as their base offense with Tebow working out of the gun for every single play.

Instead, the put Tebow under center much of the time and threw in a number of option plays that could be run out of the gun.

As for lousy assed RT's, the Broncos have Orlando Franklin and in my estimation, he's probably as bad as, if not worse than Hunter.

To sum it up, it's almost impossible for a QB to have a "good" season if he has a line that can't provide protection, receivers who can't catch/won't run routes/can't get open, and/or an OC running a poor system with lousy play calling.

In that regard, it's my opinion that both Sanchez and Tebow faced some of the very same hindrances last year.

[Demosthenes9]

I could be wrong, because im not doing research on a forum but from his post and yours it seems you both understand that Sanchez will be the starting Qb and be handing of and giving a few snaps to a gadget player named Tebow.

This is going to be an exciting offense to watch.

With a utility guy like Tebow with his abilities to spice up a Sanchez led offense, man i cant wait.


For starters, I'm thinking that Rex will do things much the same way Urban Meyer did with Chris Leak and Tebow during Tebow's freshman season. Leak was the starter and played a huge majority of the snaps, and Tebow came in whenever Meyer felt like it, usually in short yardage situations, but sometimes, airing the ball out.

[Demosthenes9]

Nah man. Thats just all the specualtion and media machine gettin to ya.

We werent as bad a team last year as was made out to be, just terribly inconsistent. we arent doing a major overhaul we are just finally committing to what weve been sayin for the past 3 years.

GROUND AND POUND.

1st move, fire schotty. done
2nd, Sparano, likes power running
3rd, Tebow, perfect fit for his role in this O, aka not QB

This is gonna be great.

It's funny, people seem to think that as soon as Tebow was drafted, that huge numbers of fans started chanting "Tebow, Tebow" and demanding that he start. That just wasn't the case.

Orton went 2-8 in the last 10 games of 2009, 3-10 over 13 games in 2009, and 1-4 in 2010. I don't care WHO the backup QB is, at that point, fans will be screaming for him. If Tebow wasn't here and the Jet's still had Stanton, if Sanchez went 6-22 over 28 games, fans would be screaming for Stanton.

[ROCaMOB]

Sure, Tebow had more experience in college with 3 years as a starter and coming in and running certain packages during his Freshman year. No doubt about that.

Sanchez had the benefit of working in a "pro style" offense at USC and taking snaps under center. IIRC, Tebow didn't take a snap from under center until he got to the NFL. He ran spread option at Nease High School and also at Florida.

Sanchez has more NFL experience. Quite a bit more. That can't be discounted. It gives a QB a chance to learn what "NFL speed" is as far as the defense goes. You know, just how fast defenders can close on the ball in coverage.

It also gives the QB the opportunity to watch NFL defenses from right on the field, a "first person" view, as opposed to seeing things on tape, which might be from different perspectives. This is important in better learning how to read defenses. You can see how defenders turn their hips or shoulders out in certain circumstances. Basically, little "tells" giving away the coverage they will be in.

I guess if you want, you can try to compare the level of experience that each have, but I'd take the NFL experience over the college experience in a heartbeat.

As far as the "regression" from last year, believe it or not, we see it much the same way. When I was on the Denver forum, I kept getting accused of making excuses when I pointed out that McCoy's play calling sucked. It sucked overall while Tebow was QB AND it sucked when Orton was QB. Then again, McCoy had virtually no experience actually running an offense or calling plays. In 2010, McDaniels ran the offense and did the play calling right up until he got fired. Then, when Studesville was named as interim coach for the last 4 games of the 2010 season, McCoy took over the play calling for the first time.

And no, McCoy and Fox did not run an offense best geared towards Tebow's skill set. To do that, they should have run the Spread Option as their base offense with Tebow working out of the gun for every single play.

Instead, the put Tebow under center much of the time and threw in a number of option plays that could be run out of the gun.

As for lousy assed RT's, the Broncos have Orlando Franklin and in my estimation, he's probably as bad as, if not worse than Hunter.

To sum it up, it's almost impossible for a QB to have a "good" season if he has a line that can't provide protection, receivers who can't catch/won't run routes/can't get open, and/or an OC running a poor system with lousy play calling.

In that regard, it's my opinion that both Sanchez and Tebow faced some of the very same hindrances last year.

You wanted me to finda qb who did more in his first 16 games than tebow. And with more pressure and less time mark sanchez did. You want to compare after 3 seasons then fine. But i seriously doubt timmy will make it another 2 full seasons as a starting qb.

And isnt tebow basically running the same offense he had at Florida ? So i guess tbat woulbe a "pro style" offensehe didnt have to learn.

And are you really calling out denvers coaching staff?? Thats gotta be a joke. They created that offense on the fly for a qb that cant play qb - and it actually worked.! At first anyway. Defenses catch up on gimmicks. Good coaching can only get you so far. Att some point your qb has fo pyt points on the board.

[Demosthenes9]

How can you complain about an offensive coordinator and FO that completely changed the offense and some personnel to suit Tebows strengths? I really dislike the Broncos, but you have to give the coaching staff all the credit in the world on how they revamped the offense to a college type offense. Problem is once it is on tape and teams have seen it on the field, it doesn't work any more as your base offense. Denver knows this, most of the league knows this.

Think someone posted a link to the article in one of the thread here in Tebowville, but basically, the Broncos switched to an offense that they thought the team could be successful with. It was extremely run heavy and yes, had some option plays and formations mixed in. One of the main components was to not turn the ball over. To be extremely cautious, especially the few times McCoy dialed up passing plays.

BUT, if you watched last year, it's easy to see when Tebow was successful. It was mostly when he was running the Spread offense out of the shotgun. That's what led to Denver beating the Jet's last year on that 95 yard drive. They went to the gun with 3,4 and 5 guys out in patterns. Rex switched to a nickel or dime package with "coverage" guys instead of your run stoppers. This opened things up for Tebow to run, and it also provided him with more receivers to target. The Jet's have a couple of great corners who can lock receivers down, but when you get to the 3rd, 4th and 5th coverage guys, it gives the advantage to the offense.

Same thing against Chicago. People keep saying that the Bears went into a "prevent" defense. They didn't. The Broncos went to the Spread from shotgun, the Bears dropped back into Cover 2 and Tampa 2 and Tebow tore it apart.

Did he still throw some really ugly passes ? Sure. But his percentages went up dramatically when in the Spread, as did his yardage and scoring.

[Demosthenes9]

You wanted me to finda qb who did more in his first 16 games than tebow. And with more pressure and less time mark sanchez did. You want to compare after 3 seasons then fine. But i seriously doubt timmy will make it another 2 full seasons as a starting qb.

And isnt tebow basically running the same offense he had at Florida ? So i guess tbat woulbe a "pro style" offensehe didnt have to learn.

And are you really calling out denvers coaching staff?? Thats gotta be a joke. They created that offense on the fly for a qb that cant play qb - and it actually worked.! At first anyway. Defenses catch up on gimmicks. Good coaching can only get you so far. Att some point your qb has fo pyt points on the board.


No, Tebow didn't essentially run the same offense that he did at Florida. They ran the Spread Option. If you want, I'll happily go through and explanation of various offenses and explain what some of the key differences are.

And yes, I'm most definitely calling out Denver's coaching staff. True, they did try to work with some of Tebow's strengths, but they could have done soooo much more. I mean, look at what Chudzinski did with the offense down in Carolina with Cam Newton. They were running the Spread and the Spread Option.

[ROCaMOB]

It's funny, people seem to think that as soon as Tebow was drafted, that huge numbers of fans started chanting "Tebow, Tebow" and demanding that he start. That just wasn't the case.

Orton went 2-8 in the last 10 games of 2009, 3-10 over 13 games in 2009, and 1-4 in 2010. I don't care WHO the backup QB is, at that point, fans will be screaming for him. If Tebow wasn't here and the Jet's still had Stanton, if Sanchez went 6-22 over 28 games, fans would be screaming for Stanton.

That may be the case in denver last season with orton but not the case here. We have a qb that's done more in his first 3 years than most qbs dream of in a career. So i dont suspect any real jets fans be chanting g for the 2nd string qb

[ROCaMOB]

No, Tebow didn't essentially run the same offense that he did at Florida. They ran the Spread Option. If you want, I'll happily go through and explanation of various offenses and explain what some of the key differences are.

And yes, I'm most definitely calling out Denver's coaching staff. True, they did try to work with some of Tebow's strengths, but they could have done soooo much more. I mean, look at what Chudzinski did with the offense down in Carolina with Cam Newton. They were running the Spread and the Spread Option.

No need i know the difference. I also know the difference in the offense that sanchez took on after bsing drafted. I cant argue with someone that's actually comparing tebow to cam newton. Good grief..

[Demosthenes9]

That may be the case in denver last season with orton but not the case here. We have a qb that's done more in his first 3 years than most qbs dream of in a career. So i dont suspect any real jets fans be chanting g for the 2nd string qb

I don't expect it either, that was kind of my point. Others here, long time residents and Jet's fans, are worried about all the Tebowites screaming for him to be the starter after Sanchez throws an incomplete pass or has a bad game.

I'm saying that their fears are decidedly overblown and it isn't going to happen.

[Demosthenes9]

No need i know the difference. I also know the difference in the offense that sanchez took on after bsing drafted. I cant argue with someone that's actually comparing tebow to cam newton. Good grief..

Why not compare Tebow to Cam ? They both are dual threat QBs. They both worked out of the shotgun in college (Tebow, much more so), they both ran Spread Option offenses (Tebow just about all the time, while Cam at Auburn ran more of a Spread offense with some option and even traditional "NFL" offense thrown in.

Seriously dude, I don't think you do know or understand the differences between the offenses.

Small test, what's the difference between a Spread Offense and the Spread Option offense ? Second, why is that difference kind of important ?

[ROCaMOB]

Why not compare Tebow to Cam ? They both are dual threat QBs. They both worked out of the shotgun in college (Tebow, much more so), they both ran Spread Option offenses (Tebow just about all the time, while Cam at Auburn ran more of a Spread offense with some option and even traditional "NFL" offense thrown in.

Seriously dude, I don't think you do know or understand the differences between their offenses.

Small test, what's the difference between a Spread Offense and the Spread Option offense ? Second, why is that difference kind of important ?

Quick a swer - Spread is used to create mismatches and stretch the field. Spred option is similarbut is used qwith a rb in a more run oriented offenss. The qb makes fhe callat the snap if its a run or pass.

You dont compare a young stud qb like cam to somo e who was traded to be mark sanchezs backup. Cam will likely be a top 5 qb someday as tk wbere timmy will lekely get one more shot before crasbi g and burning.


By the wayy remember when i mentioned that kliff kingsbury put up as good of numbers as tebow and manning? Because much liks Timmy he was a system qb. He played in tbe spread. I hope i get bonus points!

[ROCaMOB]

Why not compare Tebow to Cam ? They both are dual threat QBs. They both worked out of the shotgun in college (Tebow, much more so), they both ran Spread Option offenses (Tebow just about all the time, while Cam at Auburn ran more of a Spread offense with some option and even traditional "NFL" offense thrown in.

Seriously dude, I don't think you do know or understand the differences between the offenses.

Small test, what's the difference between a Spread Offense and the Spread Option offense ? Second, why is that difference kind of important ?


Tebow vs vince young would make for a better comparison

[ROCaMOB]

Tebow vs vince young would make for a better comparison

Or pat white. you pick

[Demosthenes9]

Quick a swer - Spread is used to create mismatches and stretch the field. Spred option is similarbut is used qwith a rb in a more run oriented offenss. The qb makes fhe callat the snap if its a run or pass.

Kind of right, but not really. Spread is just as you said. Spread the field in both width and depth.

BUT, there's not much running in a spread offense, so the defense basically just has to worry about coverage. That and they can do things with their defensive alignment to try and fark up your offense and it's timing.

Spread Option is a way to run effectively out of the shotgun. You can run from the shotgun without running option, but your play calling is fairly limited. With the Spread Option, you have a QB who is a dual threat, one that can pass the ball as well as run it up through the tackles.

What makes this better than just trying to run a lead draw from the shotgun? Because the Option gives you a numbers advantage and a running QB increases that advantage. On "traditional running plays from the shotgun, the defense doesn't have to account for the QB. That gives them a +1 advantage. Also, most schemes call for the blocking of all defenders that could be involved with the play. Only far backside defenders might be left unblocked, as they are considered to be too far away from the ball carrier to worry about.

If the QB can run, again, the defense has to account for that and it takes away the +1 advantage that they had. Additionally, in Option football, you "option" specific defenders and leave them unblocked. This gives the offense a +1 advantage at the point of attack as defenders take themselves out of plays (if run correctly).

That's the beauty of Meyer's Spread Option. It incorporates the strengths of the Spread passing game with the Option running game.




You dont compare a young stud qb like cam to somo e who was traded to be mark sanchezs backup. Cam will likely be a top 5 qb someday as tk wbere timmy will lekely get one more shot before crasbi g and burning.


By the wayy remember when i mentioned that kliff kingsbury put up as good of numbers as tebow and manning? Because much liks Timmy he was a system qb. He played in tbe spread. I hope i get bonus points!


It makes perfect sense to compare Tebow and Cam and "knowledgeable" football people have been doing it since Cam was at Auburn. What you saw from Cam this year was a QB working in a system that seriously played to his strengths. Chudzinksi did a great job with it and Carolina will be tearing people up pretty soon.

Also, it doesn't bother me to say that Cam is a more polished passer than Tebow. He was used to taking snaps under center as that is what he did at Blinn JC. He also has much better mechanics than Tebow.

[catfish]

It's funny, people seem to think that as soon as Tebow was drafted, that huge numbers of fans started chanting "Tebow, Tebow" and demanding that he start. That just wasn't the case.

Orton went 2-8 in the last 10 games of 2009, 3-10 over 13 games in 2009, and 1-4 in 2010. I don't care WHO the backup QB is, at that point, fans will be screaming for him. If Tebow wasn't here and the Jet's still had Stanton, if Sanchez went 6-22 over 28 games, fans would be screaming for Stanton.

Denver fans do try to rewrite history about that whole thing to make it sound like a bunch of gator fans flew 1500 miles to buy up all the tickets just to chant Tebows name. The folks chanting his name would have been chanting for Quinn were he the one taken in the first round with 4 years left on his contract. They can act all high and mighty now, but the truth is it was Denver fans that were doing the chanting, not Tebow fans. Will there be some idiots chanting for Tebow this year, yes, were there some idiots chanting for Brunell last year, I'm certain there were. It happens to a few QBs who havent cemented their starter role every year. All Sanchez has to do to shut them up is perform

[ROCaMOB]

Kind of right, but not really. Spread is just as you said. Spread the field in both width and depth.

BUT, there's not much running in a spread offense, so the defense basically just has to worry about coverage. That and they can do things with their defensive alignment to try and fark up your offense and it's timing.

Spread Option is a way to run effectively out of the shotgun. You can run from the shotgun without running option, but your play calling is fairly limited. With the Spread Option, you have a QB who is a dual threat, one that can pass the ball as well as run it up through the tackles.

What makes this better than just trying to run a lead draw from the shotgun? Because the Option gives you a numbers advantage and a running QB increases that advantage. On "traditional running plays from the shotgun, the defense doesn't have to account for the QB. That gives them a +1 advantage. Also, most schemes call for the blocking of all defenders that could be involved with the play. Only far backside defenders might be left unblocked, as they are considered to be too far away from the ball carrier to worry about.

If the QB can run, again, the defense has to account for that and it takes away the +1 advantage that they had. Additionally, in Option football, you "option" specific defenders and leave them unblocked. This gives the offense a +1 advantage at the point of attack as defenders take themselves out of plays (if run correctly).

That's the beauty of Meyer's Spread Option. It incorporates the strengths of the Spread passing game with the Option running game.






It makes perfect sense to compare Tebow and Cam and "knowledgeable" football people have been doing it since Cam was at Auburn. What you saw from Cam this year was a QB working in a system that seriously played to his strengths. Chudzinksi did a great job with it and Carolina will be tearing people up pretty soon.

Also, it doesn't bother me to say that Cam is a more polished passer than Tebow. He was used to taking snaps under center as that is what he did at Blinn JC. He also has much better mechanics than Tebow.


Well thanks for kicking me that knowledge professor. After my 25 plus years of watching/playing/coaching/loving/eating/breathing football -- someone finally told me what the difference between the spread and the spread option is. I could never figure that out before. When I said "Quick Answer" last night it's because I was piss wasted at 230AM trying to type on a touch screen with fat fingers. But thank you for that post. It was so well written and thought out I thought Herman Edwards was whispering it in my ear.

I'm not arguing Carolina did a great job with Newton last year. I'm arguing that Denver did a WAY better job with a worse QB -- and according to you a worse team.

It's so funny that you think Cam is a "more polished passer" than Tebow. If you think those balls that tebow throws are going to get any better you are out of your damn mind. Kid has horrible mechanics and a terrible arm. This is his third season. When does he plan on polishing up his throwing skills? Cam Newton came in and threw for 400 plus on his first game. Yeah I think it's safe to say he's a bit more polished.

[RobertPooner]

^ The Big Swingin' Dick of haters finally arrives

[ROCaMOB]

The Big Swingin' Dick of haters finally arrives

No we've been here the whole time. It's you that just showed up

[RobertPooner]

Clearly you are the Alpha Male of football knowledge and general badassery, i'll just move along while i still have my lunch money

[ROCaMOB]

Clearly you are the Alpha Male of football knowledge and general badassery, i'll just move along while i still have my lunch money

You are correct. I beat on pussies like you for a living. Give me the money and Move along...

[Demosthenes9]

Well thanks for kicking me that knowledge professor. After my 25 plus years of watching/playing/coaching/loving/eating/breathing football -- someone finally told me what the difference between the spread and the spread option is. I could never figure that out before. When I said "Quick Answer" last night it's because I was piss wasted at 230AM trying to type on a touch screen with fat fingers. But thank you for that post. It was so well written and thought out I thought Herman Edwards was whispering it in my ear.

I'm not arguing Carolina did a great job with Newton last year. I'm arguing that Denver did a WAY better job with a worse QB -- and according to you a worse team.

It's so funny that you think Cam is a "more polished passer" than Tebow. If you think those balls that tebow throws are going to get any better you are out of your damn mind. Kid has horrible mechanics and a terrible arm. This is his third season. When does he plan on polishing up his throwing skills? Cam Newton came in and threw for 400 plus on his first game. Yeah I think it's safe to say he's a bit more polished.

Glad to see that you can come up with excuses. Guess your being piss wasted explains why you think Spread Option is run with a RB at the QB position or that it's a more run oriented offense.

And no, Denver did not do "way better" job with a worse QB. Again, the reason they won most of the games they did was that the playbook was thrown out late in he 4th. Would have loved to have seen what could have happened if they actually did what you and others have claimed.

Oh no, Cam came in and threw for 400+ in his first game. Newsflash, Tebow threw for 300+ in his second game. Not bad for a guy who supposedly can't throw, huh ?>?

[CowboysFan]

If you think those balls that tebow throws are going to get any better you are out of your damn mind. Kid has horrible mechanics and a terrible arm. This is his third season. When does he plan on polishing up his throwing skills? Cam Newton came in and threw for 400 plus on his first game. Yeah I think it's safe to say he's a bit more polished.

Tebow has a very strong arm. I don't think you have ever watched an NFL game Tebow played in except the one where he ran over the Jets with his legs, Tebow needs better anticipation, better footwork . He does not have a terrible arm. He did have a looping release that has mostly vanished (it does rear its ugly head here and there ) .

I also like the declaration that he will NEVER get better even though he has started only 16 games and when compared to the other 31 starters in the NFL and their first 16 games he would rank in the top 15 of the group (for first 16 starts).


You would think that someone that has watched football for 25 years would know better........ and oh by the way I have watched for 35 years .

[ROCaMOB]

Tebow has a very strong arm. I don't think you have ever watched an NFL game Tebow played in except the one where he ran over the Jets with his legs, Tebow needs better anticipation, better footwork . He does not have a terrible arm. He did have a looping release that has mostly vanished (it does rear its ugly head here and there ) .

I also like the declaration that he will NEVER get better even though he has started only 16 games and when compared to the other 31 starters in the NFL and their first 16 games he would rank in the top 15 of the group (for first 16 starts).


You would think that someone that has watched football for 25 years would know better........ and oh by the way I have watched for 35 years .

yes but how did his last 5 games look? Yep -- never seen a game with Tebow. never seen a highlight on ESPN or Anywhere. Never seen him throw a duck into the ground at a WR's feet. Who is this guy??? Just because the dude throws a moon ball down the filed into single coverage -- it doesn't mean he has a good arm.

I will gladly evaluate Tebow after 2 seasons. However, I doubt we'll see him at QB for 16 more games unless someone gets hurt. He was just traded away from his franchise for a 37 year old with 4 neck surgeries to become the BACKUP for Mark Sanchez. I'm going to trust John Elways evaluation and every other GM in the NFL over you (well maybe everyone but Josh McDaniels). Even though you have so many years in watching football I think I'm gonna side with them. But you keep dreaming bud!

[Demosthenes9]

yes but how did his last 5 games look? Yep -- never seen a game with Tebow. never seen a highlight on ESPN or Anywhere. Never seen him throw a duck into the ground at a WR's feet. Who is this guy??? Just because the dude throws a moon ball down the filed into single coverage -- it doesn't mean he has a good arm.

I will gladly evaluate Tebow after 2 seasons. However, I doubt we'll see him at QB for 16 more games unless someone gets hurt. He was just traded away from his franchise for a 37 year old with 4 neck surgeries to become the BACKUP for Mark Sanchez. I'm going to trust John Elways evaluation and every other GM in the NFL over you (well maybe everyone but Josh McDaniels). Even though you have so many years in watching football I think I'm gonna side with them. But you keep dreaming bud!

Hmmm, Brian Billick, Bill Parcells, Mike Ditka, Dennis Green would all seem to differ with your opinion.

Elway wanted a "conventional pocket passer" and he wanted one right now.

If you will, it's like a coach wanting a 245 pound "run it up the middle" power RB, so he trades away a 210 pound "speed" back such as Darren Sproles.

[ROCaMOB]

Hmmm, Brian Billick, Bill Parcells, Mike Ditka, Dennis Green would all seem to differ with your opinion.

Elway wanted a "conventional pocket passer" and he wanted one right now.

If you will, it's like a coach wanting a 245 pound "run it up the middle" power RB, so he trades away a 210 pound "speed" back such as Darren Sproles.

LOL Really? The people you just named were given their last GM position based on past experience. And they all failed miserably and were all fired or "stepped down". There is a reason they work at ESPN - they are out of touch with the game of football. Unless you really think they hired Dennis Green because of his journalistic integrity. The current NFL doesn't want Tebow. Dude is a gold mine and only 2 teams show interest. And the Broncos still had to pay out money.

No one wants this guy. Put down the Kool Aid, brah.

[Demosthenes9]

LOL Really? The people you just named were given their last GM position based on past experience. And they all failed miserably and were all fired or "stepped down". There is a reason they work at ESPN - they are out of touch with the game of football. Unless you really think they hired Dennis Green because of his journalistic integrity. The current NFL doesn't want Tebow. Dude is a gold mine and only 2 teams show interest. And the Broncos still had to pay out money.

No one wants this guy. Put down the Kool Aid, brah.

I think they hired Dennis Green because the guy knows what he is talking about in my opinion. Why isn't he coaching now ? Perhaps he doesn't want to. Maybe NFL teams in their silly "wisdom" have decided that he isn't a good coach, even though he has a record of 113 - 94, which is a better winning percentage than John Fox has. Better than Norv Turner's. Hell, he's 1 percentage pt behind Tom Coughlin.

I'd take the opinion of every o9ne of those guys over your opinion, or Hoge's, or Schlereth's.

[ROCaMOB]

I think they hired Dennis Green because the guy knows what he is talking about in my opinion. Why isn't he coaching now ? Perhaps he doesn't want to. Maybe NFL teams in their silly "wisdom" have decided that he isn't a good coach, even though he has a record of 113 - 94, which is a better winning percentage than John Fox has. Better than Norv Turner's. Hell, he's 1 percentage pt behind Tom Coughlin.

I'd take the opinion of every o9ne of those guys over your opinion, or Hoge's, or Schlereth's.

I wouldn't listen to ANY of their opinions. That whole network is a joke minus Adam Schefter. Again, they don't know the current NFL. That's why they were let go. Ditka? Really? Are you taking his knowledge of the game? I bet he would trade Ricky Williams and 4 first rounders for Tebow.

And Parcells? Does he think Tebow is the next Pat White? Love Bill P. he turned this franchise around -- 15 years ago. And that's the last relevant thing he's done.

[Demosthenes9]

I wouldn't listen to ANY of their opinions. That whole network is a joke minus Adam Schefter. Again, they don't know the current NFL. That's why they were let go. Ditka? Really? Are you taking his knowledge of the game? I bet he would trade Ricky Williams and 4 first rounders for Tebow.

And Parcells? Does he think Tebow is the next Pat White? Love Bill P. he turned this franchise around -- 15 years ago. And that's the last relevant thing he's done.

Yet all those coaches mentioned were more successful than most coaches in the NFL today.

Seriously, how does John Fox and Norv Turner still have jobs ?

[CowboysFan]

yes but how did his last 5 games look? Yep -- never seen a game with Tebow. never seen a highlight on ESPN or Anywhere. Never seen him throw a duck into the ground at a WR's feet. Who is this guy??? Just because the dude throws a moon ball down the filed into single coverage -- it doesn't mean he has a good arm.

I will gladly evaluate Tebow after 2 seasons. However, I doubt we'll see him at QB for 16 more games unless someone gets hurt. He was just traded away from his franchise for a 37 year old with 4 neck surgeries to become the BACKUP for Mark Sanchez. I'm going to trust John Elways evaluation and every other GM in the NFL over you (well maybe everyone but Josh McDaniels). Even though you have so many years in watching football I think I'm gonna side with them. But you keep dreaming bud!

I have said sanchez will start and be better because of this and tebow will contribute quite a bit with some innovative formations and play calling by the coaching staff.

what exactly do we disagree on?