Mets vs Phillies, 5/23 Game Thread

[FITM]

Got past the Yankees, lets look to take 3 out of 3 from the Phillies, please.

[MParty7441]

lol, tommorw night's IGT?

[Boss Revis]

We don't play today, lol.

[DonnieIsTheKing]

We don't play today, lol.
Lol wow I thought I had actually forgotten we had a game.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

i'm fairly confident we won't lose tonight

[statjeff22]

i'm fairly confident we won't lose tonight

And everyone says that you're such a pessimist ...

[FITM]

Bah. I'm stupid. :sad:

[MisterMoss]

I've made the necessary adjustment.

[statjeff22]

I've made the necessary adjustment.

But that makes all of the previous comments pointless ...

[Br4dw4y5ux]

i'm fairly confident we won't lose tonight

Willie Randolph is going to wind up as the best manager in Met's history.

I'll check back with you in about 10 years when he's working on his 1000th win. :)

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Willie Randolph is going to wind up as the best manager in Met's history.

I'll check back with you in about 10 years when he's working on his 1000th win. :)

Anything's possible if the team is good enough, I suppose. However the Mets don't seem set up for that kind of long term success at the moment.

[AMJets]

Willie Randolph is going to wind up as the best manager in Met's history.

I'll check back with you in about 10 years when he's working on his 1000th win. :)

Joe Torre has 1000 wins with the Yankees.

Just saying.

[wa2k99]

Willie reminds me of Herman Edwards a little. Knows how to relate to his players well but his in-game management is shady. But he's been doing it for a year and he can get better. Hey Torre wasn't that good a manger till hecame to the Yankees.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Met's record in 2004 pre-Willie: 71-91

Met's record in 2005 - Willie's first season: 83-79

Met's record in 2006: 26-17

Now it's possible that Willie actually has cost the Mets 5 games and that they should be 31-14 right now. Just not very likely. I'll leave it up to the proponents of this possible result to justify it because based on the Met's runs and runs allowed I just don't see how it's possible.

I do have some issues with his managing, however these largely revolve around his inappropriate use of Reyes in the leadoff spot. This despite the fact that Reyes has conclusively proven at this point that he cannot get on base often enough to justify taking the number of plate appearances that a leadoff hitter gets. In a lot of ways his use of Reyes is starting to remind me of Chuck Tanner's use of Omar Moreno and Ron Leflore in the leadoff spot and both of those situations started strong and then deteriorated to ruin.

[ShadeTree#55]

If you haven't noticed the improvement in Reyes, you haven't been watching.

He will score 115+ runs with ease. Along with raising his OBP 30-40 points. That is progress.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Met's record in 2004 pre-Willie: 71-91

Met's record in 2005 - Willie's first season: 83-79

Met's record in 2006: 26-17

Now it's possible that Willie actually has cost the Mets 5 games and that they should be 31-14 right now. Just not very likely. I'll leave it up to the proponents of this possible result to justify it because based on the Met's runs and runs allowed I just don't see how it's possible.

I do have some issues with his managing, however these largely revolve around his inappropriate use of Reyes in the leadoff spot. This despite the fact that Reyes has conclusively proven at this point that he cannot get on base often enough to justify taking the number of plate appearances that a leadoff hitter gets. In a lot of ways his use of Reyes is starting to remind me of Chuck Tanner's use of Omar Moreno and Ron Leflore in the leadoff spot and both of those situations started strong and then deteriorated to ruin.

I'm not a big proponent of the "pythagorean record" over an entire season but certainly after 45ish games you can't really say that +/- 5 games from what you would expect based on the RS/RA is impossible.

As for the Mets record before and with Randolph surely you recognize this is a much different roster then what Art Howe had to work with in 2004. Much of the credit has to be given to Omar Minaya. While I certainly don't agree with all of the moves he has made he has undoubtedly added a good deal of talent to the roster, while avoiding "wasting" as much money on terrible contracts as his predecessors.

We definately agree about Reyes, when he is "right" and hitting well the Mets offense generally explodes, however when he is slumping(which is far more often then when he's hitting) it tends to go in the tank. Last year the Mets relied way too heavily on the HR ball, and they still do to a certain extent, but the lineup is stronger this year. You do have to wonder exactly what the Mets hitting coach job is, when you see some of the swings taken by Kaz and Reyes. Just horrific.

[ShadeTree#55]

Hypothetically, if he score 120 runs but has an OBP% of .315 is that bad?

I don't think so.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Hypothetically, if he score 120 runs but has an OBP% of .315 is that bad?

I don't think so.

I guess it depends how you define bad. In terms of overall batting ability he is still near the bottom of the league when you're talking about everyday players. In terms of production even when you're factoring in the SB's and that he "scores alot of runs" he's still in the bottom 3rd of everyday players.

He has improved his defense and shown more ability to take a walk this year, the question is if it's enough.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Hypothetically, if he score 120 runs but has an OBP% of .315 is that bad?

I don't think so.

Yes it's bad.

One of the features of most strong offenses is the ability to string together a long inning or two each game. Those long innings are what break the other team and create wins. Those long innings rely on the contributions of all of the players in the lineup to not make an out. Now, there are generally a couple of low onbase hitters in most lineups. These guys sit in the 7 and 8 slot and they along with the pitcher are the main hurdle to achieving those game-breaking crooked number innings. You can patch a bit by pinch-hitting for the pitcher when it's appropriate and even for the 8 hitter if he is exceptionally weak. However, if you add in a low onbase leadoff hitter, who by the way is getting the most plate appearances of any of the hitters in the lineup, you significantly decrease the chances of the long inning.

Reyes could score 120 runs and he'd still be a bad leadoff hitter with 68.5 % (a generous estimate) of his at bats turning into outs.

Another way to look at this is that in 2005 Reyes made 506 outs at the plate. Derek Jeter, batting second for most of the year for the Yankees made 452 outs. The 54 out difference means that every third game Reyes made an extra out. That has a huge effect on the lineup as a whole.

The opportunity that a top of the lineup hitter represents for his team is not only that he will score a run but that he will consume a large number of plate appearances efficiently without making extra outs. This allows his teammates below him the full opportunity to score also. Reyes fails at that task miserably so far in his short career.

For reference of similar players:

Omar Moreno

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Shawon Dunston

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Reyes needs to be a lot better than these guys before he's helping the Mets out. At the moment he's costing them games.

[ShadeTree#55]

Dunston is not similar at all. He wasn't remotely in Reyes league at 22 years old.

Reyes has shown the abilty to grow, and learn. His walks are way up.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Dunston is not similar at all. He wasn't remotely in Reyes league at 22 years old.

Reyes has shown the abilty to grow, and learn. His walks are way up.

His OBP is still very subpar for a leadoff hitter. .316 just does not cut it at the top of the lineup. He needs to get to .333 just to be a mediocre leadoff hitter. he really needs to get to the .360 OBP range to help the Mets much.

I just see no evidence that he has what it takes to make that adjustment.

Editing to say: my argument with Randolph on his usage of Reyes is based on the fact that Willie is rapidly approaching the point that he's going to need to make a real adjustment in how he uses Reyes. At the moment there is no evidence to suggest that he is aware of this. Reyes walks are up this year but so are his strikeouts. His batting average is down and he has been very inconsistent at the plate. All of the evidence is beginning to suggest that Reyes really is not a very good major league hitter. He's not terrible, in the Mark Belanger/Bud Harrelson mold but he's looking a lot like Ozzie Guillen plus or minus a little. It's time for the Mets to move Reyes down to 8 where he is not hurting them. He can be a plus player there because of his speed and occasional pop and fielding. It's also time to end the Kazuo Matsui debacle but that's another story entirely.

[MSUJet85]

Unfortunately, even though I agree with you that Reyes needs to improve, we don't have anyone that fits the mold of a leadoff hitter on this team, also a major reason why we aren't scoring runs is because a ton of the scoring opportunities that we have had so far has died with a .200 hitter that is looking like a shell of himself. While Nady even with his terrible batting with RISP, His offense has saved us from a black hole from 6 down on our lineup. We can only go so long until we have to fix the Floyd problem

[Rextasy]

I don't know, you can talk about stats till your blue in the face but I would take Reyes as my leadoff guy any day of the week..

[Br4dw4y5ux]

I don't know, you can talk about stats till your blue in the face but I would take Reyes as my leadoff guy any day of the week..

Well hell. You can talk about money all you want but I'd take minimum wage flipping burgers at McDonalds any day of the week.

Your statement and mine are functionally equivalent.

[ShadeTree#55]

For ever OBP loving argument there is a counter argument on the other side.

Giambi has almost a .500 OBP% and he is basically a useless statue that sits with the bat on his shoulder and clogs the base paths.

He is a blackhole in the middle of a lineup.

[MSUJet85]

For ever OBP loving argument there is a counter argument on the other side.

Giambi has almost a .500 OBP% and he is basically a useless statue that sits with the bat on his shoulder and clogs the base paths.

He is a blackhole in the middle of a lineup.
And as much as I hate to say it, if we replace Floyd with Giambi we would easily have a couple more wins now, and plus it is hard to compare a leadoff hitter and a guy that hits 5th or 4th on a lineup

[ShadeTree#55]

True, but you can compare what a player produces.

Reyes is very productive. He has the same amount of RBI's as Giambalco for May. That is from a leadoff hitter in the NL, not a middle of the order guy with high OBP guys in front of him like Damon and Jeter.

Reyes gets the job done and is getting better. He was rushed and forced to learn at the MLB level so it has stunted his devolpment a tad.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

For ever OBP loving argument there is a counter argument on the other side.

Giambi has almost a .500 OBP% and he is basically a useless statue that sits with the bat on his shoulder and clogs the base paths.

He is a blackhole in the middle of a lineup.

Well, this is disingenuous. Giambi has been terrible for about a month now, with his ability to walk being his only redeeming value. Of course the first month of the season Giambi was every bit as good as Pujols.

[Rextasy]

Well hell. You can talk about money all you want but I'd take minimum wage flipping burgers at McDonalds any day of the week.

Your statement and mine are functionally equivalent.
Ok, good luck with that.. Is Reyes perfect? NO but the kid is electrifying. He is gonna lead the league in triples, lead the league in SBs, he turns nearly every walk or single into a double, he'll score 115 or so runs and hit in the .280-.300 range..He has made significant improvement in his abilty to walk and will continue to improve..He is 23 for gods sake, how many leadoff hitters will put up the numbers that he does and how many would you take over him?

[ShadeTree#55]

He is 22....

[Br4dw4y5ux]

The Met's record in 2005-2006 in games that Reyes hits into 4 outs or more: 33-42

The Met's record in all other games: 76-54

What's interesting about the stat is the huge number of times that Reyes hits into 4 outs at the top of the lineup. 36% of the time the Met's leadoff hitter is essentially a zero. And the Mets go from being an above average to a below average team when that happens.

For comparison let's look at David Wright. He'll have a lot less 4 out games because he gets a lot less plate appearances than a leadoff hitter. But how do the Mets do when he does make 4 outs?

When David Wright makes 4 outs in a game: 15-9

All other games: 94-85.

So what does this tell us? When your leadoff hitter has a large number of 4 out games it has a rolling effect on the rest of the offense. When your 5 hitter has the same performance his teammates are able to manage anyway.

Willie needs to figure this out because leading off Reyes is crippling the Met's offense when he has an off game, which is way too often.

Editing to say: my methodology is actually very faulty here, a fact that did not occur to me until I reviewed it a second time. I used Reyes and Wright as comparisons because they were both young hitters who had been in nearly every game for the 2005/2006 Mets. The problem is that the 5 hitter only gets the opportunity to make 4+ outs when the rest of his teammates are hitting well. Otherwise he will rarely accomplish the feat unless he is a bad hitter which Wright clearly is not. Reyes on the other hand has the opportunity to make 4 outs in every game and he frequently accomplishes that. If Reyes got on base more often then Wright would have more at bats and more opportunity to make 4 outs. So in some ways Reyes is protecting Wright in this analysis. By not getting on base he is dramatically reducing the 5 hitter's ability to make the 4 outs.

All in all I think the analysis still says something about Reyes inability to get on base consistently and the effect that it has on the Met's offense, but it's not as cut and dried as I made seem to be initially.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Ok, good luck with that.. Is Reyes perfect? NO but the kid is electrifying. He is gonna lead the league in triples, lead the league in SBs, he turns nearly every walk or single into a double, he'll score 115 or so runs and hit in the .280-.300 range..He has made significant improvement in his abilty to walk and will continue to improve..He is 23 for gods sake, how many leadoff hitters will put up the numbers that he does and how many would you take over him?

Just in our division and talking about players that play the same position, I'd certainly take Hanley Ramirez over Reyes at this point. While Renteria has been down the last couple years he seems to be back in the groove with the Braves this year.

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Just in our division and talking about players that play the same position, I'd certainly take Hanley Ramirez over Reyes at this point. While Renteria has been down the last couple years he seems to be back in the groove with the Braves this year.

My issue with Reyes is not that he is useless. I think he's a decent shortstop defensively and contributes bottom of the order offensive skills. The problem is that he is a bad leadoff hitter.

I'm not sure that there are a lot of young shortstops I'd take over Reyes but there are virtually no major league leadoff hitters that I would not take in a heartbeat over him.

Looking at the list of up and coming shortstops probably Ramirez is the only one you might take over Reyes. And you have to be careful not to fall into the first time around the league trap when you look at him. Reyes looked like a much better hitter his first time around than he has proven to be so far.

My issue is not the player, but his placement in the order. And that comes back around to my major quibble with Willie. Get this guy down in the order where he does not hurt you, and find a good leadoff hitter to replace him.

[ButtleMan]

My issue is not the player, but his placement in the order. And that comes back around to my major quibble with Willie. Get this guy down in the order where he does not hurt you, and find a good leadoff hitter to replace him.

Then that is the million dollar question. Who should bat leadoff?
Not kazmat.
I wouldnt put Beltran there as he is better and has been more comfortable in the #3 spot
Delgado, LoDuca, Wright? No, no and no.
The only 2 place you could go to find this leadoff hitter would be at 2nd base or Left Field.
For the roster that the Mets currently have, there is no alternative to Reyes for leadoff.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

My issue with Reyes is not that he is useless. I think he's a decent shortstop defensively and contributes bottom of the order offensive skills. The problem is that he is a bad leadoff hitter.

I'm not sure that there are a lot of young shortstops I'd take over Reyes but there are virtually no major league leadoff hitters that I would not take in a heartbeat over him.

Looking at the list of up and coming shortstops probably Ramirez is the only one you might take over Reyes. And you have to be careful not to fall into the first time around the league trap when you look at him. Reyes looked like a much better hitter his first time around than he has proven to be so far.

My issue is not the player, but his placement in the order. And that comes back around to my major quibble with Willie. Get this guy down in the order where he does not hurt you, and find a good leadoff hitter to replace him.

I agree, I'd absolutely love Reyes in the position KazMat is in now, but as you said he is poison in the leadoff spot.

Ramirez was/is a big time prospect so I don't think what he's doing now is all that suprising. We will have to wait and see.

I do disagree with you about taking almost any leadoff hitter over Reyes though. The smallball "speed at the top" attitude is so prevelant that you see alot of bad hitters playing positions where alot more offense is expected then from a SS, and they put up similar numbers to Reyes. Scott Posednik and Juan Pierre for example. Then you have the middle IF'ers like Izturis, Hairston Jr and Clint Barmes.

That's off the top of my head from last year, I'm sure there's a couple I missed.

[Rextasy]

I'm not sure that there are a lot of young shortstops I'd take over Reyes but there are virtually no major league leadoff hitters that I would not take in a heartbeat over him.


To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

Take a look at this link and then tell me there are no ML leadoff hitters that you would not take over him.. Reyes needs to learn patience, no question about that but judging from his improvement from his first year to his second, I would expect him to keep improving. Batting him down in the order wastes his talents, we are just gonna have to live with the fact that he is learning on the job.

[wa2k99]

I would almost consider LoDuca at the top.

Think how often does the leadoff guy lead off an inning. Once for sure, maybe twice. And if the 8 guy gets on and the pitcher sacrifices him, you then have a guy at the plate who is more likely to get a solid hit and hit the ball the opposite way. I can remember at least 4 or 5 times Reyes had a runner(s) in scoring position and failed to deliver a hit.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

I would almost consider LoDuca at the top.

Think how often does the leadoff guy lead off an inning. Once for sure, maybe twice. And if the 8 guy gets on and the pitcher sacrifices him, you then have a guy at the plate who is more likely to get a solid hit and hit the ball the opposite way. I can remember at least 4 or 5 times Reyes had a runner(s) in scoring position and failed to deliver a hit.

Loduca's OBP is historically pretty poor too. At this point Reyes is actually walking a good deal more then Loduca, Loduca is just hitting better(something I don't expect to continue as the season goes on). I think we either have to suck it up and deal with Reyes leadoff for now, or hope that Milledge gets called up and can continue his prodigous walk rate at the major league level(31 walks and 12(!) HBP in 148 AB's in AAA this year)

[ShadeTree#55]

I would almost consider LoDuca at the top.

Think how often does the leadoff guy lead off an inning. Once for sure, maybe twice. And if the 8 guy gets on and the pitcher sacrifices him, you then have a guy at the plate who is more likely to get a solid hit and hit the ball the opposite way. I can remember at least 4 or 5 times Reyes had a runner(s) in scoring position and failed to deliver a hit.

You can say that about any player on the Mets, perhaps the NL save Albert.

20 RBI's from an NL leadoff man is great. "Clutch" hitting is not his problem at all.

[FITM]

Jose Reyes not leading off would be weird to watch.

Lo Duca is good behind Reyes though. Taking pitches and not striking out is a huge plus for a #2 guy.

[Gator]

The notion that Willie has cost the Mets 5 games is flawed. Consider.......a couple of the losses were blamed on Willie for starting Lima and or Jeremy Gonzales. Willies logic was that if he starts Heilman it'll mess up the bullpen because there will be no Heilman to go to, and he'll end up stretching the other guys too much. Well, Heilman pitched great in games 1 and 3 of the Yankees series and they won both by 1 run. So any game taken away from Willie because of Lima/Gonzales has to be added back because of Heilmans lights out 7th and 8th innings against the Yanks.

The guy that cost the Mets games was Wilpon, for getting all bent outta shape about Anna Bensons outfit at the X-mas party, then ordering Omar to trade him. Benson has been lights out lately.

Is Wilpon a feyg or sumpin? She showed some tit.....big deal!

[3rdAnd15Draw]

You can say that about any player on the Mets, perhaps the NL save Albert.

20 RBI's from an NL leadoff man is great. "Clutch" hitting is not his problem at all.

RBI's from Reyes are all well and good but they show a fundamental flaw with the lineup(and with Reyes' performance as a leadoff hitter):

Reyes has been up with RISP 55 times, and Delgado has only been up with RISP 36 times, and Wright 44.

EDIT: Only the latest Lima start was blamed on Willie for starting him.

[FrankTheTank]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.
I

[Condiment King]

The notion that Willie has cost the Mets 5 games is flawed. Consider.......a couple of the losses were blamed on Willie for starting Lima and or Jeremy Gonzales. Willies logic was that if he starts Heilman it'll mess up the bullpen because there will be no Heilman to go to, and he'll end up stretching the other guys too much. Well, Heilman pitched great in games 1 and 3 of the Yankees series and they won both by 1 run. So any game taken away from Willie because of Lima/Gonzales has to be added back because of Heilmans lights out 7th and 8th innings against the Yanks.

The guy that cost the Mets games was Wilpon, for getting all bent outta shape about Anna Bensons outfit at the X-mas party, then ordering Omar to trade him. Benson has been lights out lately.

Is Wilpon a feyg or sumpin? She showed some tit.....big deal!
I think that the Saturday game could easily be blamed on Willie Randolph as well as Billy Wagner, but that discussion has been done to death. Aaron Heilman pitched fantastically on Friday, but got into a jam on Sunday just like Sanchez and Wagner. Heilman has been a godsend for the bullpen thus far though.

I really don't know what to expect of tonight's game: the rematch of the rain called one. I'm just hoping Steve Trachsel has a game reminiscient of his last start against the Cardinals. That's really all I can ask for. The Mets either have terrible stats against Gavin Floyd or just haven't faced him that much.

As for the Jose Reyes discussion, I actually was talking about this with some other people. The major improvements I've seen from Reyes has been defensively, which can't be factored into the argument over him leading off. His OBP is still far too low for a leadoff hitter, he's historically inconsistent at the plate, and I believe he's in a slump at the moment (but so is Kaz Matsui). Its been said that while his walks have gone up so has his strikeouts. He tends to hack at the ball far too often for my tastes.

Noone else fits the "leadoff hitter mold" in the lineup, but what is the leadoff hitter mold? In Boston, in Coco Crisp's absence, Kevin Youkilis and his high OBP have been performing well in the leadoff spot. So, if we aren't looking for a guy who can steal (Reyes does have 17 steals, nice), then it could go to generally everyone. Xavier Nady was suggested to me, but he's historically as up-and-down as Reyes and his OBP is barely better. I discovered that David Wright's is significantly better and he has the 2nd most steals on the team (7).

However, as many would chime in, probably including myself, we all wanted David Wright to be one with a clutch hit to drive runs in, not a table setter. I've also heard an argument that would move David Wright to the No. 2 hole. After being initially annoyed with Willie's lineup, I think I like it more now, particularly Paul Lo Duca allowing Reyes to get more steals. I don't know how many steals Reyes had at this point last year, but I would be interested in seeing a comparison.

[asbcheeks]

I don't know if this was already discussed because I did not participate in any of the game threads this weekend but I wanted to bring it up and solicit some opinions.

Although I was a bit surprised Willie went with Wagner on Saturday, I don't think its entirely out of the ordinary to throw your closer there, especially since Wagner hadn't thrown much the week before, and since, despite Wagner having to throw 30+ pitches, he ended up still being available for Sunday's game (that was actually what worried me the most when he came in Saturday, that he would then not be available Sunday when we might really need him). If I were manager there, I'd let Sanchez, who only threw 9 pitches the prior inning, go out for the 9th, and if he allowed a single base runner, THEN I would have brought Wagner in, in what would have then become a save situation. But that's only a small nitpick IMO.

However, I found it INEXCUSABLE that Willie did not pull a double switch when he made the pitching change for the 9th inning. The pitcher's spot was due up 3rd in the bottom of the 9th. Obviously, with the score 4-0 and your closer coming in, you assume you are not going to have to bat again in the bottom half, but with Floyd making the final out in the 8th, it would've been a simple switch - and a nice defensive replacement - to put Endy Chavez in left, and move the pitcher's batting spot in case the game continues, possibly into extra innings.

It became even more outrageous when, with the score tied 4-4, and the Mets DEFINITELY coming up to bat in the 9th, Willie made another pitching change to bring in Bradford, and STILL failed to double switch, meaning Bradford only faced a single batter, and then had to be pulled for a PH in the bottom half, leaving us with only Julio and Oliver for extra innings. Should've been avoided, Bradford could easily have pitched another inning, but Willie screwed up. Am I missing something, or is this as egregious as I think it is?

[FITM]

Soler is confirmed for Wednesday.

[FITM]

Alay Soler, who will start on Wednesday, is wearing No. 43…

The Mets are 8–0 in the first game of a home series this season…

The Mets are tied with the major-league lead with 42 stolen bases, of which Jose Reyes has 17 of them…

Carlos Beltran is just 3–for-14 on the team’s current home stand…

Cliff Floyd is batting .280 over his last eight games…

Kaz Matsui has just two hits in his 20 at-bats…

Paul Lo Duca has thrown out just six of 34 runners attempting to steal second base…

The Mets are 13–2 when their starter goes more than six innings…

[3rdAnd15Draw]

I don't know if this was already discussed because I did not participate in any of the game threads this weekend but I wanted to bring it up and solicit some opinions.

Although I was a bit surprised Willie went with Wagner on Saturday, I don't think its entirely out of the ordinary to throw your closer there, especially since Wagner hadn't thrown much the week before, and since, despite Wagner having to throw 30+ pitches, he ended up still being available for Sunday's game (that was actually what worried me the most when he came in Saturday, that he would then not be available Sunday when we might really need him). If I were manager there, I'd let Sanchez, who only threw 9 pitches the prior inning, go out for the 9th, and if he allowed a single base runner, THEN I would have brought Wagner in, in what would have then become a save situation. But that's only a small nitpick IMO.

However, I found it INEXCUSABLE that Willie did not pull a double switch when he made the pitching change for the 9th inning. The pitcher's spot was due up 3rd in the bottom of the 9th. Obviously, with the score 4-0 and your closer coming in, you assume you are not going to have to bat again in the bottom half, but with Floyd making the final out in the 8th, it would've been a simple switch - and a nice defensive replacement - to put Endy Chavez in left, and move the pitcher's batting spot in case the game continues, possibly into extra innings.

It became even more outrageous when, with the score tied 4-4, and the Mets DEFINITELY coming up to bat in the 9th, Willie made another pitching change to bring in Bradford, and STILL failed to double switch, meaning Bradford only faced a single batter, and then had to be pulled for a PH in the bottom half, leaving us with only Julio and Oliver for extra innings. Should've been avoided, Bradford could easily have pitched another inning, but Willie screwed up. Am I missing something, or is this as egregious as I think it is?

I'll defend Willie on this one. Bradford was only pitching to 1 batter there no matter what. Giambi was on deck and there's no way Bradford pitches to him in a tie game even if no one is on base. 2 out of the first 3 guys coming up in the 10th were lefties, so you have to take Bradford out.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

i guess we know which trachsel showed up today

[statjeff22]

I'm going out for about an hour, but I wanted to make this "game thread" have at least two posts actually during game time. Rough first inning for Trax, but hopefully the easy second inning means that he is settling in.

[statjeff22]

And HR for D Wright! That'll work.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

wright w/another hr in a non clutch situation

:rofl:

[3rdAnd15Draw]

this phillies lineup is brutal

like i said on sunday, i'll be happy with 1/3 here

[Boss Revis]

wright w/another hr in a non clutch situation

:rofl:

? I assume you're kidding with knocking Wright who has walked off twice this year...

[Learn To Swim]

We're tied on a Floyd home run.

He hit that goodlike.

[Cakes]

i'll be happy with 1/3 here


Yeah, as if the Phillies are something worth shitting our pants over.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Paul Loduca Sucks

[3rdAnd15Draw]

nice 4 run error paul you worthless sack of shit

free ramon castro

[statjeff22]

? I assume you're kidding with knocking Wright who has walked off twice this year...

You obviously haven't read the "Same old ARod" thread.

[statjeff22]

nice 4 run error paul you worthless sack of shit

free ramon castro

I wasn't here and didn't have the radio on at the exact moment, but what did Lo Duca do? Sportsline has two outs, followed by a walk, a walk, a single, and a home run for the top of the 5th. How is that anyone other than Trachsel's fault?

[3rdAnd15Draw]

I wasn't here and didn't have the radio on at the exact moment, but what did Lo Duca do? Sportsline has two outs, followed by a walk, a walk, a single, and a home run for the top of the 5th. How is that anyone other than Trachsel's fault?

the single was a line drive to right and chavez had burrell dead to rights at home but loduca muffed the throw. trachsel has been terrible tonight but he should've been through 5 with just 2 runs. i can't believe they didn't give loduca an error on that play.

terrible ab by reyes there

[statjeff22]

Pathetic at bat for Reyes. He really is killing them at the top of the order. I won't go on the record as to whether Reyes can ever be a good leadoff hitter, but he certainly hasn't been one for the past 15 games.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

and the great "situational hitter" fails to get the runner in from 3rd with less then 2 outs.

how can you praise him for that?

edit: it seems like every mets game has started off with "Reyes is in a X for X slump..." for the past month or so

[statjeff22]

Lucky break for the Mets - 6-3 Phils after the error at first. Time for Delgado to tie it up.

[DonnieIsTheKing]

Ryan Howard with another excellent defensive play.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

beltran with the idiotic headfirst slide that would've cost him the hit there

[statjeff22]

They call it a single and RBI for Beltran! :lol:

Sliding into first is just about the stupidest play in baseball.

[Cakes]

I don't understand how the Mets could be losing to this shitass pitcher.

[statjeff22]

Would this count as a clutch situation for David?

[statjeff22]

Aargh! How can Wright let a hanging curve go by?

[3rdAnd15Draw]

jose? is that you

[statjeff22]

^ And then he swings at a pitch in the dirt. Unbelievable.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

i don't know how he could be sitting on a fastball there. floyd had been throwing nothing but curves and wright crushed a fastball his first ab

[3rdAnd15Draw]

maybe its time to start trusting feliciano more, he's been excellent this year

[statjeff22]

Back-to-back doubles by Floyd and Matsui on a couple of bad plays by the left and rightfielders. 6-4 Phils.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Back-to-back doubles by Floyd and Matsui on a couple of bad plays by the left and rightfielders. 6-4 Phils.

the floyd ball definately should've been caught but even if abreu crashes into the wall there i'm not sure he makes the play

[statjeff22]

Ridiculously good play by the catcher.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

willie's against the book smallball bites the mets in the ass once again

[DonnieIsTheKing]

Great play by Fasano... let's go Old Man!

[statjeff22]

the floyd ball definately should've been caught but even if abreu crashes into the wall there i'm not sure he makes the play

I think he backed off from the wall - he must not like the way Rowen looks these days.

[statjeff22]

willie's against the book smallball bites the mets in the ass once again

Are you sure that Willie called for that? I think it's very possible that Chavez did it on his own.

[Learn To Swim]

Dammit, what a catch by Clue Haywood

[statjeff22]

Franco with a ground rule double - 6-5 Phils.

[DonnieIsTheKing]

Old Man gets a ground rule double! Let's go Mets!

[Learn To Swim]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

RBI Double!

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Are you sure that Willie called for that? I think it's very possible that Chavez did it on his own.

I doubt Endy is up there acting on his own.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

top of the order kills yet another rally and loduca fails to redeem himself

[statjeff22]

Well, Heilman is killing any chance of getting into the rotation at this rate. Or maybe he's figured out that he's never going to get ther with the Mets, so he wants to be so bad that the Mets will trade him?

[Learn To Swim]

Or he's having a bad outing.

F***.

[statjeff22]

Pathetic performance by Heilman. Way to throw a nothing pitch right down the middle.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

does this count as one of the 3-4 games a week that Heilman is winning for us from the pen, Rick?

[statjeff22]

Or he's having a bad outing.

F***.

Another bad outing, you mean.

[Cakes]

I've just about had it with this crap. I can't believe the Mets can't beat this shitass team.

[statjeff22]

does this count as one of the 3-4 games a week that Heilman is winning for us from the pen, Rick?

Would it be better if he was doing this as a starter? He's fooled nobody in his last two outings, and his WHIP is about 1.4 in his last 6 appearances.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Would it be better if he was doing this as a starter? He's fooled nobody in his last two outings, and his WHIP is about 1.4 in his last 6 appearances.

walks have hurt him the last 2 times out, i don't think its anything to be too concerned about at this point. those were the first ER he's given up in almost a month

[Cakes]

Any of you Mets fans enjoy watching the Mets?

[FITM]

oOOOOO baby. Here comes Julio!!!!

[statjeff22]

After all of the false signs before, I might believe that Floyd is actually starting to come out of his funk - he has been right on the pitches this game.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

great job sending chavez there with the rallykillers coming up

[3rdAnd15Draw]

and reyes says fuck you jobu

:beer:

[NYJetFan37]

Here comes another slump for Reyes

[MSUJet85]

REYES TIES THE GAME!!!!! :beer:

[statjeff22]

great job sending chavez there with the rallykillers coming up

Reyes with a two-run HR! Tie game!

I was in the middle of agreeing with you, but then Jose made us both look bad!

[Toon88]

Holy shit, I was just thinking that all pitchers have to do to reyes is throw curveballs...that was absolutely shocking. NICE!!

[statjeff22]

I can't believe Reyes hit that ball out - it was about 3 inches off the ground when he hit it.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

definately not the guy you expect to take a lunging swing like that and still be able to get it out

chavez deserves a mention here too busting it out of the box and possibly forcing that drop with 2 out and no one one

[statjeff22]

Here comes another slump for Reyes

Well, he was already in a slump, so I'll take the home run.

[MSUJet85]

I can't believe Reyes hit that ball out - it was about 3 inches off the ground when he hit it.
That was Vlad Guerrero-esque right there

[DonnieIsTheKing]

Enter Dirty Sanchez.

[statjeff22]

definately not the guy you expect to take a lunging swing like that and still be able to get it out

chavez deserves a mention here too busting it out of the box and possibly forcing that drop with 2 out and no one one

Chavez made two excellent plays there - busting it when he hit it, and busting it when he scored on the double (even though it apparently didn't matter). And did you notice that he didn't dive into first, but instead did what any normal runner should do and run through the bag?

[statjeff22]

If Sanchez blows this game I'm going to scream.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

duaner has been shaky lately, but has gotten out of jams with lots of double play balls

[statjeff22]

Gary Cohen with the history lesson about the Hindenberg! :lol:

Hope it's not an omen, however ....

[3rdAnd15Draw]

you've got to believe this guy is going to run if they took burrell out of the game for him

[statjeff22]

duaner has been shaky lately, but has gotten out of jams with lots of double play balls

You're absolutely right - his WHIP is over 2 (!) over his last 7 appearances - but his ERA is also 8.53 over that time, so he hasn't been getting out of it as much as you might think.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

either sanchez is great at holding runners on or you've got to question exactly why burrell was PR for there

[statjeff22]

Nice recovery by Sanchez. GOT TO win this game now with Beltran, Delgado, and Wright.

[Irv]

Sanchez got out of that one. Time for a walk-off.

[MSUJet85]

nice job Dirty!

[statjeff22]

I love how people can't agree on the pronunciation of Carlos' name - BelTRAN, BelTRON, BelTRIN, etc.

[statjeff22]

Base hit Beltrantrintron!

[Irv]

I love how people can't agree on the pronunciation of Carlos' name - BelTRAN, BelTRON, BelTRIN, etc.

Anyone who says Bel-TRIN fails Professor Reyes's class.

Jon Miller's pronounciation on ESPN Sunday Night Baseball irritates me. If it was pronounced BEL-tran, then the accent mark would be over the e and not the a.

Dammit.

[Cakes]

Tron............

[3rdAnd15Draw]

you'd think in situations like this delgado would practice bunting/slapping it the other way if the teams are stupid enough to use the shift. all he's got to do is get it past the pitcher

[statjeff22]

Anyone who says Bel-TRIN fails Professor Reyes's class.

I think that's what Keith just called him (Darling says tran, Cohen says tron).

[statjeff22]

Delgado Ks. Beltran has got to try to steal second now.

[statjeff22]

you'd think in situations like this delgado would practice bunting/slapping it the other way if the teams are stupid enough to use the shift. all he's got to do is get it past the pitcher

The age old debate - maybe Ted Williams' head can comment on this?

[3rdAnd15Draw]

sigh

david david david

[statjeff22]

STOP DIVING INTO FIRST, YOU IDIOTS! :mad:

[Irv]

Maybe if David had taken those physics classes at Georgia Tech...

[statjeff22]

Yes, it's unlikely, but this is the kind of pitcher that Kaz actually has a chance against.

[Irv]

Damn it, K-Rod.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

that was possibly the weirdest head first 'dive' i've ever seen too. its like he was almost to the base and saw he might have a chance to beat it out so he basically fell down.

good way to fuck up your wrist

[MSUJet85]

damnit Kaz

[wa2k99]

At least we dont have to worry about Bell or Burrell anymore

[3rdAnd15Draw]

i heard this guy once threw at his own kid in a father/son game

[wa2k99]

8, 9, 1 coming up. Not much left on their bench either

[Irv]

K for Dirty.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

ugh, didn't want to have to deal with utley here

[statjeff22]

Very nice outing for Duaner. Let's make a winner out of him, boys.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

phew. 2 big lefties coming up next inning if it gets that far

gotta except we'll see wagner for an inning

[Irv]

Whatever, I'll take it.

[wa2k99]

Let's win this thing!

[statjeff22]

So much for Glavine pinch hitting. C'mon, X-man!

[Irv]

Nady's been on ice lately.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

a couple scary swings there but reyes is able to reign it in enough to work out a good walk

[statjeff22]

Reyes walks! He's got to be running immediately.

[statjeff22]

Why isn't Reyes running?

[statjeff22]

^ And as soon as I say it he steals second.

[Irv]

There he goes.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

terrible loduca

stop trying to play hero and take your damn walk

that pitch was nowhere near a strike

[Irv]

Damn it, Lo Duca.

[Elvis]

That was Ball 4 but he was trying to poke it to right

[3rdAnd15Draw]

That was Ball 4 but he was trying to poke it to right

the "fundamentally sound" and "great situational hitter" loduca has now cost the mets 4 runs in the field, left a runner on 3rd with less then 2 outs and taken the bat out of beltrans hands in a game winning situation

[3rdAnd15Draw]

good inning for wagner

i know met fans everywhere are grateful to manuel for taking burrell out for that PR in the 9th

[MSUJet85]

Nice inning by Wagner!

[Elvis]

Wagner looked good...got a nice call from the ump on that 3rd strike to Howard

[Learn To Swim]

Schizo Billy strikes again!

[statjeff22]

I guess Wager was "up" for that inning.

Baltrantrintron with a leadoff walk.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Bullshit

The Tag Wasn't On Him When He Was Off The Base

[statjeff22]

Beltran with great baserunning, and then he overslides the bag.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

He Was Safe!!!!!!!!

GET THE FUCK IN THERE AND ARGUE WILLIE

[statjeff22]

Very close.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

and the mets should now have a runner on 3rd with 1 out

[Elvis]

Looked like that hand was back on the bag before the tag....ump was out of position to make the call

[statjeff22]

Wright with a single. Would it have happened if Beltran had been on second? Dammit.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Wright with a single. Would it have happened if Beltran had been on second? Dammit.

not a chance they pitch to wright over floyd in that spot

[3rdAnd15Draw]

kaz with another chance to win it here with 2 outs

he gets the "right now" music as opposed to his japanese kung fu theme

[MSUJet85]

imagine it is opening day Kaz!

[Elvis]

Lets go Kaz, come through....

[Irv]

Anti-clutch.

[statjeff22]

God, this is agony.

[Elvis]

17 Mets left on base tonight

[Irv]

Bradford 1-2-3.

[statjeff22]

Very very nice job by Bradford. It will be a miracle if the Mets score now with Chavez, Bradford, and Reyes coming up, but hey, we can dream.

[statjeff22]

Braves and Padres tied 1-1 after 6.

[Irv]

The hell...am I the only one seeing this under Jeff's post?

Last edited by Jessie : 05-06-2005 at 11:05 AM.

[statjeff22]

Reyes hits it to the wall for the third out. Aaaaaarrrrgggghhhhh!!!!!

[MSUJet85]

Damn that was close

[Elvis]

I thought he had all of it........

[statjeff22]

The hell...am I the only one seeing this under Jeff's post?

This is a bug that's been in the board since the crash. The speculation is that they correspond to edits that people made to the same number post on the old board that somehow were carried over to the new one.

Edit: either that, or Jessie is out to get me.

[Irv]

No bullpen, no bench. Great...

[statjeff22]

It's all very nice that they're talking about how Oliver can pitch and hit for three or four innings, but why do I have the feeling that he's going to blow the game in this inning?

[Irv]

Four straight balls to Rollins. Ugh.

[MSUJet85]

Reyes saves the day!!!!!

[Elvis]

Looked like that was going to fall, nice play Reyes

[statjeff22]

Wow, that was about the worst baserunning by Rollins you'd ever see. He should have been on third anyway, and while he probably would have been caught off on that line drive, he was almost on third when Reyes caught it.

COME ON AND SCORE, METS, DAMMIT!!

[statjeff22]

Would have preferred it in the 5th, 6th or 10th when runners were on base, but Lo Duca leads off with a hit. Bring him home, Carloses!

[statjeff22]

On to the 14th. When did Ryan Madson become Cy Young?

[Irv]

Will it ever end?

On to the 14th. When did Ryan Madson become Cy Young?

Only against the Mets.

[MSUJet85]

Golden Sombrero for Howard!

[statjeff22]

Will it ever end?



Only against the Mets.

That really is so true - in 8 of his 10 previous appearances he had given up at least one earned run (although it should be noted that the first six were as a starter).

[Irv]

1-2-3 for Oliver. Can we finish this yet?

[vinsjets]

bottom of the 14th....leading off...cliff floyd...

[statjeff22]

Well, with two scoreless innings from Oliver, everything from now on really is gravy. The last five relievers have allowed 4 baserunners in 7 innings. The Mets have GOT to win it right now.

[Cakes]

There's a bed waiting in my house, too.

[Elvis]

Another tease, Cohen was up out of his seat!!!

[statjeff22]

OMG, is Cohen going to start again with his complaining about the game going long? Why don't you get a good night's sleep before the game, Gary? It's only 6 minutes after midnight, you know.

[vinsjets]

ohhhhh man....that was the most exciting call i ever heard for a flyball

[vinsjets]

i wish i wasnt getting the game on delay this way i could keep up with you guys

[statjeff22]

Has anyone heard a reason why Pedro cannot be the starter on Thursday, his usual fifth day? That's what they should do anyway, and it seems more and more appropriate the longer this game goes.

[Irv]

Has anyone heard a reason why Pedro cannot be the starter on Thursday, his usual fifth day? That's what they should do anyway, and it seems more and more appropriate the longer this game goes.

*Insert rant about Willie and Rick putting pitchers in a position to fail*

[vinsjets]

Pedro OWNS the marlins? idunno...maybe hes sick of no decisions

[statjeff22]

Pedro OWNS the marlins? idunno...maybe hes sick of no decisions

A bad reason, but at least it's a reason! :lol:

[vinsjets]

whats the longest game ne1 has ever watched?

[Irv]

Does taking a nap in the 11th of the Braves-Astros NLDS game last year and waking up during the 16th count?

[vinsjets]

i guess nething counts at this point

[vinsjets]

i gotta give mad props to this kid...even tho he was only in the bullpen 10 days...hes still doin it.

[statjeff22]

whats the longest game ne1 has ever watched?

I've seen a bunch - the 19 inning game on the 4th of July in 1985 against the Braves, the 24 inning game against Houston and the 23 inning game against the Giants in the 60s, for example. The ATlanta game might be the one I stayed up latest for (it ended at around 4 AM).

[vinsjets]

this game wont reach past the 16th.

[Cakes]

whats the longest game ne1 has ever watched?

I've attended two 14 inning games. Both were Padres 2-1 wins over the Mets. One in New York in 1994 and the other in San Diego in 2006.

On television, the longest one I watched was the Braves-Astros 18-inning series ender last year.

[MSUJet85]

whats the longest game ne1 has ever watched?
I think the Robin Ventura grand slam single game

^ and watch the end of the Braves/Astros game

[vinsjets]

the grandslam single is my longest game..prior to this

[statjeff22]

You KNOW that this game is out of control when Lo Duca throws someone out! (Maybe)

[vinsjets]

he was safe by a mile and a half

[statjeff22]

this game wont reach past the 16th.

I sure hope that you're right.

[vinsjets]

mlb.tv is like the greatest thing i ever paid for

[Elvis]

3-4-5, time to end this.....

[statjeff22]

he was safe by a mile and a half

Maybe you need to refresh your memory about the dimensions of the field:

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

:breakdance:

[AMJets]

Finally over.

[statjeff22]

THAT'S IT! BELTRAN DOES IT! :breakdance:

[MSUJet85]

Beltran Ends The Marathon Game!!!

[vinsjets]

Maybe you need to refresh your memory about the dimensions of the field:

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

:breakdance:
:rofl2: meh....either way. the mets need to end this now

[Elvis]

Beltran - WOW

[statjeff22]

this game wont reach past the 16th.

I am VERY VERY VERY impressed! :up:

[Irv]

Beltran comes through!

[wa2k99]

Can we trade for Chris Burke and have him here in 5 minutes? He beat the Braves in the 18 inning game last year

[vinsjets]

you guys ruined my delayed surprise. but HEYYYYYY ITS OVER

[statjeff22]

Padres beat the Braves 2-1 - 4 game lead on Philly, 5 game lead on Atlanta.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

:beer: not a moment too soon either, with gonzalez warming up in the pen

[Elvis]

Good night all...

[MillerTime#22]

Beltran!!!!!

[statjeff22]

Nice to see Beltran so excited. They might very well lose the next two games, but this was a BIG win for the Mets.

I guess the fact that they might lose the next two games is one of the reasons WHY this is a big win, huh?

Free Pedro for Thursday.

[Cakes]

It is very unacceptable for the Mets to lose this series. I don't care who starts.

[GangGreen04]

beltran is now putting together a great season. Hes hitting big homeruns, playing solid D and is all around playing great ball. Hes creeping up there with david wright on becoming my favorite met. Heck i love this entire team. Even willie managed a great game 2nite

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Has anyone heard a reason why Pedro cannot be the starter on Thursday, his usual fifth day? That's what they should do anyway, and it seems more and more appropriate the longer this game goes.

No idea, the way the announcers were talking the Mets would sooner call someone up from the minors then pitch Pedro on Thursday. Talking about being past "Plan C's" and bringing in Gonzalez tonight.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

beltran is now putting together a great season. Hes hitting big homeruns, playing solid D and is all around playing great ball. Hes creeping up there with david wright on becoming my favorite met. Heck i love this entire team. Even willie managed a great game 2nite

Willie did seem fairly competent tonight, although maybe that was only in contrast to Manuel's ineptitude.

Manuel took Burrell out for a PR that didn't even try to run, and double switched Bell out then let Madsen bat twice anyway. Neither move made any sense at all.

[statjeff22]

No idea, the way the announcers were talking the Mets would sooner call someone up from the minors then pitch Pedro on Thursday. Talking about being past "Plan C's" and bringing in Gonzalez tonight.

If Soler doesn't go at least 6 tomorrow, I think Gonzalez is the obvious guy to bring into the game, which might force Pedro to pitch Thursday?

You know that I'm not in general a Willie basher, and I do think he did a very good job managing a challenging game today, but if Pedro doesn't pitch Thursday (and it isn't because of arm or toe problems, or the like) I will be VERY pissed.

[nyscene911]

Willie did seem fairly competent tonight, although maybe that was only in contrast to Manuel's ineptitude.

Manuel took Burrell out for a PR that didn't even try to run, and double switched Bell out then let Madsen bat twice anyway. Neither move made any sense at all.
I was wondering if Manuel fell asleep. 7IP in relief? the double switches? He makes Willie look like a genius tonight!

[MSUJet85]

Hamels got injured during Batting Practice so Lieber is pitching against Soler

[Br4dw4y5ux]

I've seen a bunch - the 19 inning game on the 4th of July in 1985 against the Braves, the 24 inning game against Houston and the 23 inning game against the Giants in the 60s, for example. The ATlanta game might be the one I stayed up latest for (it ended at around 4 AM).

The game against the Cards in 74. It went forever. I was 13 at the time and my mother (little did she know) said I could stay up to watch the end of the game at about 11pm in the 10th inning. At 2am she came back out into the kitchen and asked me if I had started another game. The question is making me laugh now as much as it did then. She stayed up until after 3am when the game finally ended in like the 25th inning. I guess she wanted to make sure I didn't turn on a 3rd game (from like Tokyo?) and stay up all night.

Oh, those were the days. Black and White TV and announcers who knew nothing about baseball but could recite an advertising jingle like Shakespeare. I was about 18 before I knew that walks weren't an accident that happened when the pitcher screwed up...

[Irv]

Has anyone heard a reason why Pedro cannot be the starter on Thursday, his usual fifth day? That's what they should do anyway, and it seems more and more appropriate the longer this game goes.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

The Mets, searching for their No. 4 and No. 5 starters after injuries to Víctor Zambrano and Brian Bannister, briefly considered starting Pedro Martínez on four days' rest. But Randolph said it would not hurt to give Martínez an extra day off, noting that Martínez's career trends indicated that he was more effective when pitching on five days' rest.

The difference is negligible. On four days' rest, Martínez has a 2.74 E.R.A. and opponents bat .209 against him. On five days' rest, Martínez has a 2.65 E.R.A. and opponents hit .205 against him.

Nice job, Willie. Excellent research you did there. Nothing like marginal stats to get in the way of common sense.

Ass.

[statjeff22]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.



Nice job, Willie. Excellent research you did there. Nothing like marginal stats to get in the way of common sense.

Ass.

Omifreakingod. You'd think that he would at least check with Elias before saying things that are just plain wrong. There has GOT to be a reason why he's doing this that none of us know, right? NO ONE could be this ridiculously illogical for no good reason, right? PLEASE tell me that the Mets aren't giving away a game against the team closest to them in the standings without any cause!

[Br4dw4y5ux]

Omifreakingod. You'd think that he would at least check with Elias before saying things that are just plain wrong. There has GOT to be a reason why he's doing this that none of us know, right? NO ONE could be this ridiculously illogical for no good reason, right? PLEASE tell me that the Mets aren't giving away a game against the team closest to them in the standings without any cause!

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

How about we give Willie the benefit of the doubt on this one? It's obviously the organization's view that Martinez pitches better with 5 days rest now that he is an older pitcher.

If you look at the actual 2004 stats quoted when Martinez pitched on 4 days vs 5 days rest it becomes clear that Willie AND THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION believes that Martinez will be more effective if used on 5 days rest.

Note that in 2004 the Redsox made the opposite decision:

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

And that lead to Martinez having the bad year on 4 days rest and pitching much better on his normal 5 days.

As usual the Mets (and Willie) know more about this subject than we do.

[statjeff22]

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

How about we give Willie the benefit of the doubt on this one? It's obviously the organization's view that Martinez pitches better with 5 days rest now that he is an older pitcher.

If you look at the actual 2004 stats quoted when Martinez pitched on 4 days vs 5 days rest it becomes clear that Willie AND THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION believes that Martinez will be more effective if used on 5 days rest.

Note that in 2004 the Redsox made the opposite decision:

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

And that lead to Martinez having the bad year on 4 days rest and pitching much better on his normal 5 days.

As usual the Mets (and Willie) know more about this subject than we do.

Very nice, except for one problem - those numbers refer to 2004, not 2005. Just as that article says, in 2005 the Mets tried very hard to give Pedro extra rest. Only problem is, he was much WORSE when they did that. Not counting opening day, he had 17 starts on at least 5 days rest. In those starts he pitched an average of 6 2/3 innings, and had an ERA of 3.35. He had 13 starts where he pitched on 4 days rest. In those starts he pitched an average of 7 1/2 innings, and had an ERA of 2.20. He was FAR better last year on 4 days rest than on 5 or more. And guess what? The pattern got STRONGER as the season went on - after July 10, he had an ERA of 4.22 in the 8 starts on 5 or more days rest, and an ERA of 1.37 in the 6 starts on 4 days rest. Doesn't sound to me like there's any evidence of him wearing down there. So far this year he is better on 5 or more days rest (1.93 ERA versus 3.04), but that mostly comes from one bad game (May 14 against Milwaukee). Given the closeness of the career numbers, it would seem that 2004 was the exception, not the rule. If you then consider the relative importance of the Philly and Florida series right now, it does not make any sense to me to hold him back an extra day.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Pedro not pitching on thursday has all the earmarks of a Peterson decision rather then a Willie one. We know Willie doesn't look at stats and that whole statement about career trends sounds like a line fed to him.

Sometimes I wonder how many of Willie's problems are simply relying too heavily on mr i always wear my jacket collar up when he wants to get cute with the pitchers/bullpen. Remember that last year Peterson was stumping for Ishii after the trade, talking him up as a "guy who knows how to win games" and lately has been bloviating about how Heilman is too valuable in the pen to move into the rotation.

[jetsrule128]

this game wont reach past the 16th.


wow good call

[ShadeTree#55]

Reyes = Clutch god.


Rest Pedro, the toe is never going to heal, give him extra days whenever possible.

[Exit 117]

According to McCarthy (or Rose, I don't know, it was midnight), Pedro, Peterson, Willie, and Omar planned out Pedro's pitching schedule at the beginning of the year until the All-Star break, and Pedro had been set from the season's beginning to get an extra day this particular week.

[Rextasy]

I can't believe that you guys are getting this worked up about giving Pedro an extra day in mid May. I'd rather him be fresh in September than have him pitch a game against Philly in May.. You guys need to realize that they aren't throwing the game because Jeremi Gonzalez is pitching, teams win games with crappy pitchers on the mound every day..