Yankees @ Devil Rays April 23rd - April 24th

[plasticsloth]

ok moving on from the sox series. Lets sweep em yanks!

Igawa pitching tonight
Wang pitching tomorrow :beer:

[EcKo151]

Another home-run by AROD!!

[JoeJet]

When are the American League teams going to start putting him on his ass, two times a game?

[EcKo151]

After the ARod shot...Giambi doubles, Matsui walks...1st and 2nd nobody out for Posada.

[Don]

Another home-run by AROD!!
Absoluting amazing. 14 HRs and 35 RBis are the record for April. He has a great chance of breaking both.

[EcKo151]

Cano another stupid double play...Ugh, 1st and 2nd nobody out and not even a runner advances.

[Don]

When are the American League teams going to start putting him on his ass, two times a game?
When Giambi, Matsui and Posada are no longer batting behind him.

[JoeJet]

Don -you know as well as I that what AROD is doing does not happen 15-20 years ago. He is like taking batting practice now. Drysdale, Marichal, and Koufax would have him eating dirt. And the umpires would look the other way.

[Don]

They try to throw inside from time to time. The problem is they aren't very good at it. If they hit him it brings up three more power hitters and they might get thrown out of the game to boot. If they don't it's just another ball and the next pitch they will throw for a strike anyway. It isn't like SF where they can just walk Bonds because there isn't much else in that lineup. They really don't have a choice but to pitch to Arod unless first base is open.

Oh, and you forgot Gibson.

[EcKo151]

And the Yankees starting pitching CONTINUES to be trashy...

Igawa serves up a meatball to Baldelli for a 3-run homer...Jeez.

[JoeJet]

They try to throw inside from time to time. The problem is they aren't very good at it. If they hit him it brings up three more power hitters and they might get thrown out of the game to boot. If they don't it's just another ball and the next pitch they will throw for a strike anyway. It isn't like SF where they can just walk Bonds because there isn't much else in that lineup. They really don't have a choice but to pitch to Arod unless first base is open.

Oh, and you forgot Gibson.

I like that you are somewhat of a baseball historian. I thought of Gibson after I posted, but was too lazy to go back and edit.

[The Dark Knight]

4-1 Devli Rays. No problem becau........SON OF A BI---

[The Dark Knight]

Yankees continue to piss me off. 5-3 Rays After 4.

[Cellar-door]

No way Igawa goes any more than 6, he's at 90 already

wow, I'm like a psychic, as soon as i posted iwamura doubles and igawa is done

[typeOnegative13NY]

Help is on the way!!! Wang back tomorrow. Pettite Wednesday. Hughes on Thursday. I'm not all that confident in what Moose can do anymore,but i'm sure it's better than this shit we have been seeing lately.

[davecrazy]

Too bad A-Rod isint pitching as well

[GreyhoundJet]

Well.. we may suck at pitching but I still think we will win this game.. we are killing their pitching

[The Dark Knight]

Come on Phelps!

[The Dark Knight]

Great at bat! 7-6 rays

[EcKo151]

This team's pitching sucks...I'm amazed how bad they are.

[The Dark Knight]

This is sickening. I think I may stop watching for a couple days.

[typeOnegative13NY]

The next 3 days,the Rotation is going to be as strong as it can possibly be this season. This shit better get better.

[Canadian]

Man this is just sad.

But the news of Matsui and Wang coming back (as well as Moose relatively soon), as well as Hughes coming up is great!

I think they will have Hughes up for a month or so and then bring him back up in September; that is unless he goes lights out and they will keep him up.

For the first time in a while I actually have hope for the rotation:

We have two studs (hopefully) in Wang and Hughes.

Some possibly good starters in Sanchez as well as possibly Karstens and Igawa

As well as some emergency starters in Rasner and Wright (ughhhhh....)

But still we should have at least 3 good starters and can easily pick up two more, and probably one more from the minors will turn out to be good

[Cakes]

Maybe the Yankess can call Dan Pasqua out of retirement to steer this ship back on course.

[Drew]

AAAAROD IS AAAAAAAAMAZING

Michael Kay... please, please end your life.

[MisterMoss]

Arod is ridiculous. He's also somewhat clutch!

[ShadeTree#55]

Arod is dreamy.

[EcKo151]

Wang returns tonight...

No worry, Proctor or Vizcaino will blow it...Damn this pitching sucks!!

[AlioTheFool]

Wang returns tonight...

No worry, Proctor or Vizcaino will blow it...Damn this pitching sucks!!

Can you really blame them though? They have almost as many appearances each as ARod does homers.

It's time for the axe to fall on Joe.

All this panicking is really starting to get on my nerves though. If this team weren't so damned old and feeble, we wouldn't be rushing kids up to lead them to slaughter.

Oh well, at least right now we have a chance to see history made with Alex having quite a few more opportunities to break the HR/month record.

[ShadeTree#55]

Yankee fans are out of this forum faster then a Arod HR.

[Don]

Yankee fans are out of this forum faster then a Arod HR.
Huh?.................

[ShadeTree#55]

The Yankee fans have abandoned ship. They are defeated and broken.

[JoeJet]

The Yankee fans have abandoned ship. They are defeated and broken.

They will be back in force once they start beating up on the bad teams again.

[VickBlows]

I was at the game last night (because my brother is a Yanks fan…I’m a Mets fan…fortunately we are both Jets fans).

After the game we saw the Devil Rays starting pitcher (form last night)…I forget his name, well…because he is a pitcher for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Anyway – he was wearing a Jets shirt and hat…my bro yells go Jets and he ripped a J.E.T.S Jets chant.

It was pretty cool

[JoeJet]

I
After the game we saw the Devil Rays starting pitcher (form last night)…I forget his name, well…because he is a pitcher for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Anyway – he was wearing a Jets shirt and hat…my bro yells go Jets and he ripped a J.E.T.S Jets chant.

It was pretty cool

If you are talking about Casey Fossom, he was born in New Jersey.

[AlioTheFool]

I'm not gone from the forum, there's just been nothing to talk about. I've posted in the Phil Hughes thread. A couple posts in the wrapup of the Sox series thread, and a post or two here and there.

What are we supposed to do? Sit here and whine about how badly we suck?

1) We don't suck, so all we'd be doing is handing you guys more fire to hit us with 2 months down the road for screaming that the sky was falling in April.

2) There's only so much you can complain about losses before you tire of hearing yourself speak.

[VickBlows]

If you are talking about Casey Fossom, he was born in New Jersey.

Yeah - him. Guess he's a Jets fan - Or he is going out of his way to not be associated with the Rays.

[The Dark Knight]

LETS GO YANKEES! :beer:

[EcKo151]

Wang returns tonight against Rays ace Scotty Cashmere...I know Wang will be limited, but if he can stretch 6, that'd be wonderful.

[Canadian]

The Yankee fans have abandoned ship. They are defeated and broken.

What are you talking about?

It's just more people are inclined to post on

1. Their Huge Rivalry
2. During the weekend


I would be posting a lot more in this thread if I didn't have school/could watch the games

[EcKo151]

This team is a fucking train wreck. Myers serves up a grand-slam to Crawford, 6-3 DRays...

How bad is this pitching situation from top to bottom? What a disgrace!

[typeOnegative13NY]

this is ridiculous. Finally get a nice long outing from the SP,he leaves with the lead and its blown. Someone needs to go Paul Oneill on the watercooler like they give a shit.

[EcKo151]

Nice to see Matsui show up tonight, as he singles home Abreu.

I'm still absolutely stunned how bad this pitching is...

[plasticsloth]

how has wang been? i have been out and haven't watched or heard anything from teh game.

[EcKo151]

this is ridiculous. Finally get a nice long outing from the SP,he leaves with the lead and its blown. Someone needs to go Paul Oneill on the watercooler like they give a shit.
Who's going to do that? Nobody on this team has that kind of fire...

These guys go to their suites, private jets and move on to the next day, it's that simple.

Guys don't run out grounders, show no emotion after a strikeout, they don't do shit. ARod, Jeter, Pettitte, and Posada have shown up this year and at least look like they're trying...I love Cano, but he just runs so nonchalant after a groundball and doesn't give his all, where is his power?

Their are others who have showed up thus far, but right now i'm fuming at how this team is about to get swept by Tampa and lose 5 straight games.

Oh yeah, Jeter left the game earlier after a HBP, how great is that?

[EcKo151]

how has wang been? i have been out and haven't watched or heard anything from teh game.
You really can't ask for anything more from Wang tonight...His sinker was live, mid-90s, good slider and got guys out...He did his job.

[EcKo151]

5 straight losses. 8-11 on the year. 1-3 vs. Tampa on the year.

Last place Yankees.

What in the blue hell is going on?

[AlioTheFool]

This is disgusting. It doesn't matter how well the starting pitching performs, the pen will destroy it.

And of course Joe with his trademark micromanagement pulls Vizcaino to put in Myers to serve up a meatball. Thanks Joe, at least you're consistent.

EcKo, your point about the laziness and uncaring is something I've been saying for weeks. This team is fully unmotivated. Where does that come from? Answer: The coaching staff. It's time for a change, end of story.

This team makes me sick. It's the 80s all over again.

[Canadian]

God damnit

[The Dark Knight]

Last.

Place.

[GreyhoundJet]

At least the Red Sox are losing also. Not that we should worry about them at this point but it is nice to see them lose a bit.

[Jake]

Four Yankee relievers in top 5 in MLB for appearances. Looks like Joe is looking to burn out more than just one guy by September.

Look what he did to poor Ron Villone, who was so solid for 3/4 of last year and didn't even crack the squad this year due to Joe's misuse of him.

Clueless one, please let someone else handle the bullpen!

[Carl Spacklers Grass]

as a Mets fan, there is little I enjoy more than a good Yankees Fan Early-Season Panic

yes, the Yanks are a bad team right now, but they will get healthy and right the ship. And they NEED Bernie on this team but Cashman is just being stubborn

[Learn To Swim]

Has Bernie been working on a changeup or something? Offense ain't this team's problem.

[HCoftheNYJ]

I don't get where Bernie would fit. When you have a 4th outfielder that needs to be getting consistant playing time like Cabrera, there's really no point.

[Barry the Baptist]

This is disgusting. It doesn't matter how well the starting pitching performs, the pen will destroy it.

And of course Joe with his trademark micromanagement pulls Vizcaino to put in Myers to serve up a meatball. Thanks Joe, at least you're consistent.

EcKo, your point about the laziness and uncaring is something I've been saying for weeks. This team is fully unmotivated. Where does that come from? Answer: The coaching staff. It's time for a change, end of story.

This team makes me sick. It's the 80s all over again.

For the 1st time I agree with you that maybe Torre isn't as great as he is cracked up to be. This loss falls on his shoulders but trust me, as much as I agree with you I have a smile from ear to ear watching the annual poor April by the Yanks followed by the panic button pushing by the fans. This isn't football, you can play .500 ball the 1st 2 months of the season and still have a legit shot to make the playoffs. Lucky for the Yanks the Red Sox follow up their sweep of you by getting killed by the Blow Jays. Maybe Toronto will make some noise after all.

[Don]

This is disgusting. It doesn't matter how well the starting pitching performs, the pen will destroy it.

And of course Joe with his trademark micromanagement pulls Vizcaino to put in Myers to serve up a meatball. Thanks Joe, at least you're consistent.

EcKo, your point about the laziness and uncaring is something I've been saying for weeks. This team is fully unmotivated. Where does that come from? Answer: The coaching staff. It's time for a change, end of story.

This team makes me sick. It's the 80s all over again.
I'm with you on that and we both agree Torre should go now. He can only hide behind his sunglasses asleep on the bench for so long. I think we fell 10 back and into last place in May of last year too. We can't expect everybody to collapse every year though while we try to dig ourselves out.

Jeter didn't need to come out either, and probably didn't want to come out. That's Torre again being ultra careful. He will probably sit him out for the next 4 games too. All because of a flesh bruise.

[AlioTheFool]

See, I knew Jeter was coming out. I was saying it to my wife as he walked down to first. It's the way it is with the Yankees. Joe babies his "guys" and the pitching can go to hell.
-------------------------

I know Mets fans are getting a big kick out of this, but there's something they are wrong about. None of us are setting off fire alarms. We all realize that it's still way too early to worry. We're a good team, and we will be in the race in August/September.

The biggest issue is the total misuse of the talent on this team. Last night, Vizcaino came in, and was doing just fine. Rather than let him just pitch, Joe brought in Myers for his "situational" appearance. So what happens? Myers gives up a grand slam.

Micromanagement does not work. If a guy is getting outs, forget the damned formula. Let him do his job. Not to mention, our pen is catching up to our starters in innings pitched.
--------------------------

My comparison to the 80s, IMO, is valid. Back in the 80s, the Yankees could score. There was always sufficient power in the lineup, and there were guys who got on base. It was always terrible pitching that killed us.

So to "fix" it, we're now bringing up kids that may or may not be ready. A quick band-aid to try to right the ship one more time for Joe. Well screw Joe. Obviously he isn't pushing these players.

EcKo's point on Cano is one that's been made by myself and others over the past couple weeks. And Cano is not the only one. Melky just had a month to get his act together, and just never bothered. It's not like we don't know he has talent, but he made the return of Matsui a critical need, rather than a bonus.

I think it's amazing our new hitting coach was able to calm down Alex, and return him to monster form, yet Cano and Cabrerra can't seem to lay off the first, no matter how far outside the pitch is. Is that a true credit to ARod, or is it telling of the attitude of these kids? I side with the latter.

I'd love to hear junc's defense of Torre now. At this point, it seems painfully obvious to most people, now including other teams' fans, that Joe does not have what it takes to lead this team.

It's time for a change. I want Mattingly to be the interim manager for the rest of the year. At the end of the season, he can be judged for the job he does over the course of the season. If he is a failure, Girardi can be pulled out of the booth, and we start from scratch next year.

I've said before, I am fine with scrapping this entire year, if it means we are working on fixing things for the future. It just appears that the "win now" attitude is still too damned strong in upper management. All that attitude has ever done is make it harder to build for the future.

That's why I'm disgusted.

[Don]

See, I knew Jeter was coming out. I was saying it to my wife as he walked down to first. It's the way it is with the Yankees. Joe babies his "guys" and the pitching can go to hell.
-------------------------

I know Mets fans are getting a big kick out of this, but there's something they are wrong about. None of us are setting off fire alarms. We all realize that it's still way too early to worry. We're a good team, and we will be in the race in August/September.

The biggest issue is the total misuse of the talent on this team. Last night, Vizcaino came in, and was doing just fine. Rather than let him just pitch, Joe brought in Myers for his "situational" appearance. So what happens? Myers gives up a grand slam.

Micromanagement does not work. If a guy is getting outs, forget the damned formula. Let him do his job. Not to mention, our pen is catching up to our starters in innings pitched.
--------------------------

My comparison to the 80s, IMO, is valid. Back in the 80s, the Yankees could score. There was always sufficient power in the lineup, and there were guys who got on base. It was always terrible pitching that killed us.

So to "fix" it, we're now bringing up kids that may or may not be ready. A quick band-aid to try to right the ship one more time for Joe. Well screw Joe. Obviously he isn't pushing these players.

EcKo's point on Cano is one that's been made by myself and others over the past couple weeks. And Cano is not the only one. Melky just had a month to get his act together, and just never bothered. It's not like we don't know he has talent, but he made the return of Matsui a critical need, rather than a bonus.

I think it's amazing our new hitting coach was able to calm down Alex, and return him to monster form, yet Cano and Cabrerra can't seem to lay off the first, no matter how far outside the pitch is. Is that a true credit to ARod, or is it telling of the attitude of these kids? I side with the latter.

I'd love to hear junc's defense of Torre now. At this point, it seems painfully obvious to most people, now including other teams' fans, that Joe does not have what it takes to lead this team.

It's time for a change. I want Mattingly to be the interim manager for the rest of the year. At the end of the season, he can be judged for the job he does over the course of the season. If he is a failure, Girardi can be pulled out of the booth, and we start from scratch next year.

I've said before, I am fine with scrapping this entire year, if it means we are working on fixing things for the future. It just appears that the "win now" attitude is still too damned strong in upper management. All that attitude has ever done is make it harder to build for the future.

That's why I'm disgusted.
Torre, in his sublime state of senility forgets that it was pitching and pitching alone that won him those four rings. You are right, he coddles his "boys" and lets the pitchers go to hell.

I think Torre should be fired now. George knew it after last year and let Cashman talk him out of it. Cashman should go too. He got nothing but damaged goods for Sheffield. Vizcaino is ok but not worth Johnson's 17 wins a year two years in a row. Minor leaguers aren't helping the team now so I won't even count them.

They could put Bowa on the bench and let Mattingly still tutor under him for the rest of this year and then take over next year. At least Bowa will have something to say to him.

As far as conditioning, Arod and Matsui are in shape. Maybe Damon, Giambi and Posada look no worse then they looked last year. Jeter, Abreu, Cano and Cabrerra all look fat and slow compared to how they looked last year. That's not the fault of the new conditioning coach either, that's a personal issue with them.

[AlioTheFool]

Torre, in his sublime state of senility forgets that it was pitching and pitching alone that won him those four rings. You are right, he coddles his "boys" and lets the pitchers go to hell.

I think Torre should be fired now. George knew it after last year and let Cashman talk him out of it. Cashman should go too. He got nothing but damaged goods for Sheffield. Vizcaino is ok but not worth Johnson's 17 wins a year two years in a row. Minor leaguers aren't helping the team now so I won't even count them.

They could put Bowa on the bench and let Mattingly still tutor under him for the rest of this year and then take over next year. At least Bowa will have something to say to him.

I disagree about Cashman.

AFAIK, it wasn't Cashman who wanted Joe back, it was George.

Cashman did not get garbage in those trades. Joe's just been inept in his ability to use what he's given.

And minor leaguers are the future for us. This team isn't getting old. It is old.

[Don]

I disagree about Cashman.

AFAIK, it wasn't Cashman who wanted Joe back, it was George.

Cashman did not get garbage in those trades. Joe's just been inept in his ability to use what he's given.

And minor leaguers are the future for us. This team isn't getting old. It is old.
George wanted him fired. That's a fact. Cashman wanted him back.
I didn't say he got garbage, I said he didn't get any value. Sanchez was damaged goods and he was the main player for Sheffield. He got nothing to replace Johnson's 34 wins unless they bring Ohlendorf up. A SS prospect is going nowhere in this organization.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

One of a million articles you can find on who wanted Torre fired ^^

"Brian Cashman's protests aside, no doubt there was plenty of truth in the reports of the past three days, that Steinbrenner wanted to fire Torre to cleanse himself of the stench of losing."

[nyjunc]

See, I knew Jeter was coming out. I was saying it to my wife as he walked down to first. It's the way it is with the Yankees. Joe babies his "guys" and the pitching can go to hell.
-------------------------

I know Mets fans are getting a big kick out of this, but there's something they are wrong about. None of us are setting off fire alarms. We all realize that it's still way too early to worry. We're a good team, and we will be in the race in August/September.

The biggest issue is the total misuse of the talent on this team. Last night, Vizcaino came in, and was doing just fine. Rather than let him just pitch, Joe brought in Myers for his "situational" appearance. So what happens? Myers gives up a grand slam.

Micromanagement does not work. If a guy is getting outs, forget the damned formula. Let him do his job. Not to mention, our pen is catching up to our starters in innings pitched.
--------------------------

My comparison to the 80s, IMO, is valid. Back in the 80s, the Yankees could score. There was always sufficient power in the lineup, and there were guys who got on base. It was always terrible pitching that killed us.

So to "fix" it, we're now bringing up kids that may or may not be ready. A quick band-aid to try to right the ship one more time for Joe. Well screw Joe. Obviously he isn't pushing these players.

EcKo's point on Cano is one that's been made by myself and others over the past couple weeks. And Cano is not the only one. Melky just had a month to get his act together, and just never bothered. It's not like we don't know he has talent, but he made the return of Matsui a critical need, rather than a bonus.

I think it's amazing our new hitting coach was able to calm down Alex, and return him to monster form, yet Cano and Cabrerra can't seem to lay off the first, no matter how far outside the pitch is. Is that a true credit to ARod, or is it telling of the attitude of these kids? I side with the latter.

I'd love to hear junc's defense of Torre now. At this point, it seems painfully obvious to most people, now including other teams' fans, that Joe does not have what it takes to lead this team.

It's time for a change. I want Mattingly to be the interim manager for the rest of the year. At the end of the season, he can be judged for the job he does over the course of the season. If he is a failure, Girardi can be pulled out of the booth, and we start from scratch next year.

I've said before, I am fine with scrapping this entire year, if it means we are working on fixing things for the future. It just appears that the "win now" attitude is still too damned strong in upper management. All that attitude has ever done is make it harder to build for the future.

That's why I'm disgusted.

So Torre gave up the GS? You blame TRorre for bringing in a lefty specialist against a lefty that was 3for 3 against us prior to the HR? Just b/c we lose doesn't mean it's Joe's fault and when we win we don't always win inspite of him.



There is WAY too much panic going on around here, it's April, we might be in "last place" but we are only 4 games back. Things will settle down, don't hang yourselves yet.

[Don]

So Torre gave up the GS? You blame TRorre for bringing in a lefty specialist against a lefty that was 3for 3 against us prior to the HR? Just b/c we lose doesn't mean it's Joe's fault and when we win we don't always win inspite of him.



There is WAY too much panic going on around here, it's April, we might be in "last place" but we are only 4 games back. Things will settle down, don't hang yourselves yet.
That's true enough. You just have to wonder when the time will come that you can't dig out of a hole. Last year was much worse then where we are now.

[AlioTheFool]

So Torre gave up the GS? You blame TRorre for bringing in a lefty specialist against a lefty that was 3for 3 against us prior to the HR? Just b/c we lose doesn't mean it's Joe's fault and when we win we don't always win inspite of him.



There is WAY too much panic going on around here, it's April, we might be in "last place" but we are only 4 games back. Things will settle down, don't hang yourselves yet.

And like clockwork, you make sure you defend Torre. Thanks for not letting me down junc.

So in your opinion, it was okay to yank Vizcaino, yet again, to put Myers in, who has already had some difficulty coming in for his spot appearances? That's okay management of this team in your opinion?

Who is panicking around here? If anything, the Yankees, by promoting Hughes at least 2 months before they ever planned to, are the ones panicking. Well, maybe not Joe. He never panicks. Actually, sometimes I wonder if he's even still breathing.

[AlioTheFool]

George wanted him fired. That's a fact. Cashman wanted him back.
I didn't say he got garbage, I said he didn't get any value. Sanchez was damaged goods and he was the main player for Sheffield. He got nothing to replace Johnson's 34 wins unless they bring Ohlendorf up. A SS prospect is going nowhere in this organization.

To view links in this forum your post count must be 10 or greater. Your post count is 0 momentarily.

One of a million articles you can find on who wanted Torre fired ^^

"Brian Cashman's protests aside, no doubt there was plenty of truth in the reports of the past three days, that Steinbrenner wanted to fire Torre to cleanse himself of the stench of losing."

Okay, so I was misinformed about the Torre situation. Fine, no biggie. It could have also been to see if Donnie has the ability to take over. A sort of trial phase.

As far as complaining about the deals, such as the Johnson trade, you are guilty of the same thing as the Yankees. You have to look out towards the future. These deals are not for immediate gains. Johnson is at the end of his career. Regardless of those 17 Ws a year, we got value back. As for Sheff, is his AVG above .100 yet?

Even with a SS as part of a deal, at the very least, if we cultivate him, he's nothing worse than trade bait. Sheff had no place on this team, and Johnson was never comfortable pitching here. What Cashman did was pure theft.

[Don]

Okay, so I was misinformed about the Torre situation. Fine, no biggie. It could have also been to see if Donnie has the ability to take over. A sort of trial phase.

As far as complaining about the deals, such as the Johnson trade, you are guilty of the same thing as the Yankees. You have to look out towards the future. These deals are not for immediate gains. Johnson is at the end of his career. Regardless of those 17 Ws a year, we got value back. As for Sheff, is his AVG above .100 yet?

Even with a SS as part of a deal, at the very least, if we cultivate him, he's nothing worse than trade bait. Sheff had no place on this team, and Johnson was never comfortable pitching here. What Cashman did was pure theft.
I didn't care if Johnson was comfortable, he was winning games anyway. Sheffield sucks so far, no doubt. But would he in NY? He could have DHed and Giambi, as bad as he is defensively, could still be playing 1st. What have we gotten offensively out of who is at first now? Or defensively even?

[nyjunc]

That's true enough. You just have to wonder when the time will come that you can't dig out of a hole. Last year was much worse then where we are now.

2 years ago today we were 4.5 games back in last place. I think as of today we are ok and we'll dig out, I agree we can't get too far behind but the staff should be getting healthier so we'll see what happens.

And like clockwork, you make sure you defend Torre. Thanks for not letting me down junc.

So in your opinion, it was okay to yank Vizcaino, yet again, to put Myers in, who has already had some difficulty coming in for his spot appearances? That's okay management of this team in your opinion?

Who is panicking around here? If anything, the Yankees, by promoting Hughes at least 2 months before they ever planned to, are the ones panicking. Well, maybe not Joe. He never panicks. Actually, sometimes I wonder if he's even still breathing.

You are hysterical, you call me out for all the things you do such as not reading your own posts and like clockwork YOU are always bashing Torre. I wouldn't have to mention Joe if you didn't blame him for EVERY loss.

I didn't care if Johnson was comfortable, he was winning games anyway. Sheffield sucks so far, no doubt. But would he in NY? He could have DHed and Giambi, as bad as he is defensively, could still be playing 1st. What have we gotten offensively out of who is at first now? Or defensively even?

Randy and Sheff weren't getting the job doe as we expected, those trades were great as we got some good prospects out of the deal and it gave us more payroll flexibility(sounds silly but it did). Randy didn't make his first start until last night(and he stunk) so we would have had 4 starters on the DL in April if we still had Randy.

[AlioTheFool]

I didn't care if Johnson was comfortable, he was winning games anyway. Sheffield sucks so far, no doubt. But would he in NY? He could have DHed and Giambi, as bad as he is defensively, could still be playing 1st. What have we gotten offensively out of who is at first now? Or defensively even?

The problem with that is that there was no way Giambi was going to play first. Even if Sheff was still here, he'd probably have been the first baseman. Or, they would have dealt Abreu. Either way, given his lack of production, dumping him and getting anything in return is a steal.

Defensively, Mienky and Phelps have been okay. Not superstars, but okay. And we knew that offensively, 1B was not going to provide Mattingly/Tino/Giambi numbers. We simply reduced payroll and hoped for the best.

Still doesn't change the fact that RJ started the year on the DL, which we knew he would. Plus, there's no guarantee that post-surgery, he would ever be a shadow of his former self again. Another move that has more potential upside than clear down.

Could Sheff turn it around and hit 25HR, 85 RBI? Sure. Will he? Doubtful. Could Randy win 15-18 games, take home a Cy Young, be the dominant pitcher that killed us in the WS? Sure. Will he? Also doubtful.

You have to wait it out with the talent we got in return. It was an investment, and helped restock a decimated farm system. That's key to titles in the 20-teens. Winning every year is fun, sure, but I want to actually win, and so far, this 80s mentality of win it this October has been more shooting ourselves in the foot than trying to build yet another dynasty team.

[ShadeTree#55]

Its not Arods fault.

[AlioTheFool]

2 years ago today we were 4.5 games back in last place. I think as of today we are ok and we'll dig out, I agree we can't get too far behind but the staff should be getting healthier so we'll see what happens.

I think we're all confident this slide is temporary. We need healthy bodies. It is okay to be pissed off though.



You are hysterical, you call me out for all the things you do such as not reading your own posts and like clockwork YOU are always bashing Torre. I wouldn't have to mention Joe if you didn't blame him for EVERY loss.

Yeah, I blame Joe for misusing pitching. I blame Joe for a totally obvious lack of motivation in his players.

Yes, I will continue to bash Torre every single game until he 1) changes his behavior (which he never will,) or 2) gets the damn axe.

Randy and Sheff weren't getting the job doe as we expected, those trades were great as we got some good prospects out of the deal and it gave us more payroll flexibility(sounds silly but it did). Randy didn't make his first start until last night(and he stunk) so we would have had 4 starters on the DL in April if we still had Randy.

We do totally agree on this front. Amazing, but true.

[AlioTheFool]

Its not Arods fault.

Thanks for clearing that up for us Shade! :wink:

[ShadeTree#55]

Arod deserves better.

[Don]

The problem with that is that there was no way Giambi was going to play first. Even if Sheff was still here, he'd probably have been the first baseman. Or, they would have dealt Abreu. Either way, given his lack of production, dumping him and getting anything in return is a steal.

Defensively, Mienky and Phelps have been okay. Not superstars, but okay. And we knew that offensively, 1B was not going to provide Mattingly/Tino/Giambi numbers. We simply reduced payroll and hoped for the best.

Still doesn't change the fact that RJ started the year on the DL, which we knew he would. Plus, there's no guarantee that post-surgery, he would ever be a shadow of his former self again. Another move that has more potential upside than clear down.

Could Sheff turn it around and hit 25HR, 85 RBI? Sure. Will he? Doubtful. Could Randy win 15-18 games, take home a Cy Young, be the dominant pitcher that killed us in the WS? Sure. Will he? Also doubtful.

You have to wait it out with the talent we got in return. It was an investment, and helped restock a decimated farm system. That's key to titles in the 20-teens. Winning every year is fun, sure, but I want to actually win, and so far, this 80s mentality of win it this October has been more shooting ourselves in the foot than trying to build yet another dynasty team.
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said in this post. I just think we should have known more about Sanchez who may never come back. We should have held out for the pitcher we wanted in the Johnson deal, although Ohlendorf may end up good anyway. In both cases I blame Cashman, right or wrong.

I was just thinking. Johnson came back the same day as Wang. I would have rather been waiting for Johnson to return from surgery then I am now, waiting yet again, for Pavano to come back from an enflamed pimple or whatever he has with no timetable in sight.

[AlioTheFool]

I don't necessarily disagree with anything you said in this post. I just think we should have known more about Sanchez who may never come back. We should have held out for the pitcher we wanted in the Johnson deal, although Ohlendorf may end up good anyway. In both cases I blame Cashman, right or wrong.

Eh, that's fair enough. I just think we got a lot more potential value than we could expect from Sheff (who I still believe went out all of last year to clean his urine of steroid samples,) and Randy, who we knew for sure was having back surgery.

Sometimes you have to take a calculated risk. I think that's what Cashman did here. Was it wrong? Perhaps. But I still think we need at least through next season to tell for sure.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

And like clockwork, you make sure you defend Torre. Thanks for not letting me down junc.

So in your opinion, it was okay to yank Vizcaino, yet again, to put Myers in, who has already had some difficulty coming in for his spot appearances? That's okay management of this team in your opinion?


I rarely agree with junc but what exactly is your problem with this move? You have a problem with pulling a guy who had pitched 4 out of the last 5 days, giving up 6 runs over that time for a lefty specialist with a lefty at the plate? Myers fucked up, these things happen but I don't see how you can say Torre made the wrong move in this case.

[AlioTheFool]

I rarely agree with junc but what exactly is your problem with this move? You have a problem with pulling a guy who had pitched 4 out of the last 5 days, giving up 6 runs over that time for a lefty specialist with a lefty at the plate? Myers fucked up, these things happen but I don't see how you can say Torre made the wrong move in this case.

So he's pitched 4 of the last 5 days? So has everyone else. He looked fine to me.

Myers being specifically brought in for exactly one hitter wastes another arm. Not just Myers' but someone else's too. (Usually either Proctor or Henn.)

If this was a once-in-a-while occurrance, I'd have no right to complain. However, this is every single game. Every game we use more pitchers than necessary, then Torre wonders why guys can't move their arms.

One mistake is fine. Two even. But when three and four start become six and eight, at some point, you have to take a step back and look at the overall issue.

It's not like any Yankee fan with the exception of junc isn't complaining about the mismanagement skills of Joe Torre.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

So he's pitched 4 of the last 5 days? So has everyone else. He looked fine to me.

Myers being specifically brought in for exactly one hitter wastes another arm. Not just Myers' but someone else's too. (Usually either Proctor or Henn.)

If this was a once-in-a-while occurrance, I'd have no right to complain. However, this is every single game. Every game we use more pitchers than necessary, then Torre wonders why guys can't move their arms.

One mistake is fine. Two even. But when three and four start become six and eight, at some point, you have to take a step back and look at the overall issue.

It's not like any Yankee fan with the exception of junc isn't complaining about the mismanagement skills of Joe Torre.

Well if you're not going to bring him in to pitch to Crawford then what you're really saying is he shouldn't be on the roster. Yes, over the course of his career Vizcaino has been pretty good against lefties, but if he was left in and gave up the Grand Slam you'd be killing Joe for leaving him out there.

Like I said, if you want to argue that Myers shouldn't be on the team that's one thing, but that was a pretty textbook situation of when to bring a lefty in from the pen late in the game.

[AlioTheFool]

Well if you're not going to bring him in to pitch to Crawford then what you're really saying is he shouldn't be on the roster. Yes, over the course of his career Vizcaino has been pretty good against lefties, but if he was left in and gave up the Grand Slam you'd be killing Joe for leaving him out there.

Like I said, if you want to argue that Myers shouldn't be on the team that's one thing, but that was a pretty textbook situation of when to bring a lefty in from the pen late in the game.

You make a fair point about Vizcaino. I might have complained anyway. Depends on whether I knew Myers was currently warming or not. If I know Myers is warming, and Viz has a chance to get the out, I don't complain, since it's against Joe's grain, meaning he is dropping his formula methodology.

Sure, it's a textbook move. But not everything needs to be by the book every game.

As for Myers, I have no issue with him being on the team. My biggest issue is he is used improperly. He proved he can pitch to multiple batters already, but Joe is back to the one-and-done method. And it's not just last night with Crawford. It's been the past week and a half.

If you don't have confidence in guys to get the tough outs, when do you have confidence in them?

[3rdAnd15Draw]

You make a fair point about Vizcaino. I might have complained anyway. Depends on whether I knew Myers was currently warming or not. If I know Myers is warming, and Viz has a chance to get the out, I don't complain, since it's against Joe's grain, meaning he is dropping his formula methodology.

Sure, it's a textbook move. But not everything needs to be by the book every game.

As for Myers, I have no issue with him being on the team. My biggest issue is he is used improperly. He proved he can pitch to multiple batters already, but Joe is back to the one-and-done method. And it's not just last night with Crawford. It's been the past week and a half.

If you don't have confidence in guys to get the tough outs, when do you have confidence in them?

Well, unless it's multiple lefties in a row I sure wouldn't have any confidence in Myers to get a righty out. Over the past 3 years Myers has put up a .315/.425/.497 line against right handed batters. Sure if you're up 5 runs or something you might let him go an inning but in any kind of tight game letting him pitch to a righty is insane.

[AlioTheFool]

Well, unless it's multiple lefties in a row I sure wouldn't have any confidence in Myers to get a righty out. Over the past 3 years Myers has put up a .315/.425/.497 line against right handed batters. Sure if you're up 5 runs or something you might let him go an inning but in any kind of tight game letting him pitch to a righty is insane.

Then perhaps last night would have been a good night to give him a chance at some rest?

See, that's where my issue lies. It's not necessarily any one pitcher, and the situation he is called upon to fill. It's the fact that night after night, regardless of the outcome, Joe will make the same exact moves, and he has no sense of overuse to the pen.

Like devil mentioned earlier, I've never seen such a close to 50-50 split in innings between starters and relievers. You can't realistically believe you can win games that way, yet Joe does.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

Then perhaps last night would have been a good night to give him a chance at some rest?

See, that's where my issue lies. It's not necessarily any one pitcher, and the situation he is called upon to fill. It's the fact that night after night, regardless of the outcome, Joe will make the same exact moves, and he has no sense of overuse to the pen.

Like devil mentioned earlier, I've never seen such a close to 50-50 split in innings between starters and relievers. You can't realistically believe you can win games that way, yet Joe does.

Wait, who are we talking about needing rest here. Yes, it was Myers 3rd appearance in 5 days, but he had thrown a combined 4 pitches in the previous 2 outings and he threw 5 that night. I don't think overuse was a factor with Myers.

[AlioTheFool]

Wait, who are we talking about needing rest here. Yes, it was Myers 3rd appearance in 5 days, but he had thrown a combined 4 pitches in the previous 2 outings and he threw 5 that night. I don't think overuse was a factor with Myers.

I don't look at it in terms of how many officially counted pitches are thrown. Every day he even warms in the pen is another day's worth of work on an arm that isn't 23 anymore.

Anyway, the overuse is an overall blanket statement, at least in the way I was originally using it. The point being, the entire pen needs a few days rest. Of course, it's unrealistic to think that the entire pen can get some time off, but you have to space out appearances over the whole staff.

Of 170 innings pitched, the pen has pitched 76 of them. As a bullpen, they have a total of 79 appearances in 19 games! Henn and Vizcaino have 12 innings each, Bruney and Proctor 11 each, Myers and Farnsworth 8 a piece, Mo has 6, Bean 3, and Britton and Pettitte both have 2.

We're talking about a pen that is active at least 4 times a game, on average. That's not even counting when guys get warm, and don't make an actual appearance. How much work can a human arm be expected to endure before breaking down?

Does this make sense? I'm not even trying to be argumentative here. Am I being overreactive? I just think that is far too much work for these guys to be doing so early in the year. Is it really being ridiculous to believe that one or two relievers a game should be enough? If they fail, they fail. You're going to lose games, it happens. But this using everyone, every day, is causing far too much wear and tear on guys far too early.

To me this makes sense. If someone with an opposing viewpoint can show me why I'm wrong, I'd truly love to hear it.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

I don't look at it in terms of how many officially counted pitches are thrown. Every day he even warms in the pen is another day's worth of work on an arm that isn't 23 anymore.

Anyway, the overuse is an overall blanket statement, at least in the way I was originally using it. The point being, the entire pen needs a few days rest. Of course, it's unrealistic to think that the entire pen can get some time off, but you have to space out appearances over the whole staff.

Of 170 innings pitched, the pen has pitched 76 of them. As a bullpen, they have a total of 79 appearances in 19 games! Henn and Vizcaino have 12 innings each, Bruney and Proctor 11 each, Myers and Farnsworth 8 a piece, Mo has 6, Bean 3, and Britton and Pettitte both have 2.

We're talking about a pen that is active at least 4 times a game, on average. That's not even counting when guys get warm, and don't make an actual appearance. How much work can a human arm be expected to endure before breaking down?

Does this make sense? I'm not even trying to be argumentative here. Am I being overreactive? I just think that is far too much work for these guys to be doing so early in the year. Is it really being ridiculous to believe that one or two relievers a game should be enough? If they fail, they fail. You're going to lose games, it happens. But this using everyone, every day, is causing far too much wear and tear on guys far too early.

To me this makes sense. If someone with an opposing viewpoint can show me why I'm wrong, I'd truly love to hear it.

I think we're just looking at the situation from 2 different perspectives. You're looking at it as an example of more bullpen overuse from Torre, I'm looking at it as the correct move for that game.

I agree with you about the general overuse of the pen, and especially nonsense like using Pettite in relief at this point of the season, but they had lost 4 in a row, had the lead and Torre wanted to win. Myers screwed up, I'm not going to kill a manager for making the correct move.

[AlioTheFool]

I think we're just looking at the situation from 2 different perspectives. You're looking at it as an example of more bullpen overuse from Torre, I'm looking at it as the correct move for that game.

I agree with you about the general overuse of the pen, and especially nonsense like using Pettite in relief at this point of the season, but they had lost 4 in a row, had the lead and Torre wanted to win. Myers screwed up, I'm not going to kill a manager for making the correct move.

Right, we're just seeing it from 2 different angles, which is fair enough. Sure, it could be considered the right move, and had it worked, Joe would have been justified.

My problem, is just what you said. General overuse. (I mix and match the terms misuse and overuse, so that is probably where I am misleading with my argument.) At some point, these guys need some rest. It's freaking April.

I said the same exact thing last year in reference to Villone, and sure enough, Joe ruined his arm. Coming into this year, I was sure the target was Proctor. Now I'm starting to think it's anyone whose last name isn't Rivera.

(The one thing I actually don't hold against Torre in this mess is Pettitte. Andy has offered to give up his throw day as a relief appearance both times. Sure, Joe could turn him down, but he's throwing anyway, and real gametime is better than simulated innings I guess. So him pitching to allieviate some of the stress on the pen is good for the team.

See junc, I don't blame Joe for EVERYTHING. :wink: )