Is Mike Mussina a HOF?????

[17a_tailgater]

being at the yankee/orioles game saturday and watching Mussina pitch,I asked a question.my friend asked if Mike Mussina was a HOF pitcher.

Mike Mussina IS NOT a HOF pitcher.yes he has been a very GOOD pitcher for most of his career.but he has not been GREAT.he has never won 20 games in a season.he has never won a CY Young Award and he has never won a world series.he has been on winning teams for MOST of his career.and he was never won as the ace of staff.

[Big Poppa Naich]

i don't think he is even close to a hof pitcher. he's been a very good pitcher, but he has never been the best pitcher even on his own team through his whole career.

[3rdAnd15Draw]

I don't think Mussina belongs in the HOF, but besides 93 he was the best pitcher on the Orioles every full season he was there.

[ShadeTree#55]

He is right there with Cone and Orel Hershiser, just a notch below. IMO

[nyscene911]

He is right there with Cone and Orel Hershiser, just a notch below. IMO
I agree. He's been a great pitcher, but not quite HOF material. He should definately garner a few votes, but won't get in.

[SigmaXJet]

not even close

[xjets2002x]

No.

No CY Young
No 300 games
No 20 games(though he might do it this year)

The Hall of Fame, in both baseball and football, is now littered with so many very good but not great players that the only true measure these days is "first ballot" or not. This is a poor trend that wouldn't be served by adding a Mike Mussina to the mix.

-X-

[Yisman]

he was never great, but he was very good for a number of years. I'd say no, even though he has 7 seasons of 17 wins or more (he'll likely make it 8 this season)

[jonnyd]

i dont ever really hear much talk about him in the hall....he certainly is not hall calibur....very good, solid pitcher....not hall-bound

[17a_tailgater]

I want to hear junc's opinion

[xjets2002x]

He is right there with Cone and Orel Hershiser, just a notch below. IMO

I think people would take into account, with Hershiser, his injuries. His accomplishments are rather untouchable.

If Cone had more wins we wouldn't be having this discussion. His fall off was precipitous. He simply didn't take care of himself. Were he not such a hard living dude he probably would have been a first ballot guy. Cone had ALL TIME GREAT STUFF.

Still, Cone gets in over Mussina because

He won a CY Young
He won 20 games TWICE
He threw a perfect game
Lead the league in strikeouts two consecutive seasons
rings(and he was a major reason)


-X-

[AlioTheFool]

No, Moose is not a Hall of Fame pitcher.

Sure, those numbers are very important, and he doesn't have them, but he has had the ability to reach them.

My opinion on Mussina is one that he solidified to me this year. He has hurt himself. He has always been too cerebral. It is well known that he has always done crossword puzzles before games. Not that crossword puzzles are bad, but is that really something you should be using to get ready for a big start?

He has always, up until very late last year into this year, been a poor big game pitcher. He could never hack it in front of the bright lights.

Had he developed the break he now has on his knurve earlier in his career, he would have easily won 20+ games multiple times.

He also always had too soft of a locker room presense. Until spring training this year, he pretty much ignored everyone, and only spoke when spoken to. This year, however, he actively participated in tutoring some of the young pitchers. It seemed to honestly elevate his own game. Some of that may have had to do with the whole "Oh yeah, you know, I never thought about that" you get when you are teaching someone something.

This year's Moose, if he had been that way for the past decade, would be a sure-fire HoFer one day. Too bad it is just one year at the tail end of his career.

[AMJets]

Depends on these next few seasons, and how close he gets to 300 wins, 20 wins in a season, etc. When people break down his career, year-by-year, it is surprising how many HOF caliber years he has had. He has a shot, but right now he just misses out.

[17a_tailgater]

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[Cakes]

With a couple more good years, he will probably reach milestone numbers (250 wins, 2500 Ks {I think he reached that this year or will}) to get in via the Don Sutton Clause. You know, never (or hardly ever) considered the best pitcher in the league, but consistently good for a long period of time.

I would not vote for a guy like that, but the baseball writers do.

If you broke the Hall of Famers into two (or three) tiers, Mussina would appear on the bottom tier, if he someday were to be inducted.

[GreenMachine]

Just a comparison of pitchers similar to Moose's stats.

I know it is hard to read, so here is the links
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Sim Player From To Yrs W L WL% ERA G GS GF CG SHO SV IP H R ER HR BB SO ERA+
+---+--------------------+---------+--+---+---+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+
Mike Mussina 1991-2005 15 224 127 .638 3.6412 443 443 0 56 23 0 3013.0 2874 1296 1219 323 684 2400 124
893* Juan Marichal 1960-1974 15 243 141 .633 2.8712 469 455 11 244 52 2 3501.3 3142 1320 1117 318 704 2302 122
888 Bob Welch 1978-1993 16 208 140 .598 3.3847 481 454 16 61 28 8 3023.3 2815 1254 1137 257 991 1925 108
871 Kevin Brown 1986-2001 15 180 118 .604 3.1833 402 399 1 72 17 0 2776.3 2588 1132 982 169 768 2021 130
867 Jack Morris 1977-1991 15 216 162 .571 3.7102 465 443 10 164 26 0 3289.3 2993 1489 1356 339 1178 2143 108
866 Tom Glavine 1987-2002 16 242 143 .629 3.3689 505 505 0 52 22 0 3344.7 3174 1388 1252 247 1140 2054 122
863* Carl Hubbell 1928-1939 12 216 121 .641 2.8036 442 351 74 224 33 32 2988.7 2827 1094 931 171 555 1424 139
860* Chief Bender 1903-1920 15 212 127 .625 2.4499 458 334 108 255 40 34 3016.0 2644 1108 821 39 711 1711 111
860* Jim Bunning 1955-1968 14 196 147 .571 3.1090 494 436 31 141 40 15 3219.0 2862 1247 1112 327 848 2493 120
857* Bob Gibson 1959-1972 14 225 141 .615 2.7886 448 410 17 232 54 4 3340.3 2764 1172 1035 211 1113 2786 133
857 David Cone 1986-1999 14 180 102 .638 3.1900 390 361 9 56 22 1 2590.0 2144 1011 918 212 985 2420 128
Mike Mussina 1991-2005 15 224 127 .638 3.6412 443 443 0 56
23 0 3013.0 2874 1296 1219 323 684 2400 124
+---+--------------------+---------+--+---+---+-----+-----+----+---+---+---+---+---+------+----+----+----+---+----+----+---+

[10nyjets87]

no.. hes a good pitcher. Very consistent at being good. He has never had a great season and he has never had a bad season. just good, and good isnt good enough for the hall of fame.. :)

[GreenMachine]

no.. hes a good pitcher. Very consistent at being good. He has never great and he has never bad. just good, and good isnt good enough for the hall of fame.. :)
Than why is Bill Mazzeroski in?

[AMJets]

no.. hes a good pitcher. Very consistent at being good. He has never had a great season and he has never had a bad season. just good, and good isnt good enough for the hall of fame.. :)

He's never had a great season? He's had a number of great seasons.

[Jetfanmack]

Career ERA+ of 125. 1.181 career WHIP. It's close. He was at 224 wins coming into this year, and he's going to pitch a few more seasons. I think by the end of his career, he'll get in.

[Jetfanmack]

no.. hes a good pitcher. Very consistent at being good. He has never had a great season and he has never had a bad season. just good, and good isnt good enough for the hall of fame.. :)
He's been top 6 in ERA 8 times in his career. He's been top 5 in WHIP 9 times in his career. He's been top 10 in strikeouts per 9 innings in a season 9 times as well. If he puts together one or two more very good seasons and a couple more decent ones, he will get in.

[xjets2002x]

He's been top 6 in ERA 8 times in his career. He's been top 5 in WHIP 9 times in his career. He's been top 10 in strikeouts per 9 innings in a season 9 times as well. If he puts together one or two more very good seasons and a couple more decent ones, he will get in.

That's all good, but he's NEVER top 3 in anything. A Hall of Famer has to be consistently at the top of his position. It's not the Hall of Very Good.

Mussina is an odd case, in the sense that he's never fallen up, but he doesn't have blow you away numbers and he's lacking the benchmarks. No CY Young, No 20 games, no no-hitters.

-X-

[dwalsh]

That's all good, but he's NEVER top 3 in anything. A Hall of Famer has to be consistently at the top of his position. It's not the Hall of Very Good.

Mussina is an odd case, in the sense that he's never fallen up, but he doesn't have blow you away numbers and he's lacking the benchmarks. No CY Young, No 20 games, no no-hitters.

-X-

He did come within a strike of a perfect game against Boston though



Say he does win 20 games this year, and the Yankees win the World Series; then does he make it?

[AMJets]

That's all good, but he's NEVER top 3 in anything. A Hall of Famer has to be consistently at the top of his position. It's not the Hall of Very Good.
-X-

What do you mean by never top 3 in anything? He's been in the top 3 of many statistics through out his career.

Top 3 ERA - 4 times
Top 3 Wins - 4 times
Top 3 WHIP - 5 times
Top 3 K/9 - 2 times
Top 3 BB/9 - 4 times
Top 3 K - 3 times
Top 3 shutouts - 5 times
Top 3 K/BB - 8 times
Top 3 ERA+ - 3 times

His consistency is his greatest advantage, and he has been top 4-5 many other times through out his career. After this year, a lot of those #'s above will go up because he's having a strong year. He's looking for a 3 year contract after this year, so if he can win 40-45 games in that time span to get to around 280-285, and reach 3,000 Ks (he's over 2500 now), with an ERA possible

[xjets2002x]

The case can be made, but he has to last.

It's feasable, but as it stands now, it's not happening. Hey, he could win 20 games this year and that might be enough, but he's not getting any younger.


-X-

[Imagesrdecieving]

Stats play an important part of whether or not a player gets in. A thing that really seals it for me is the X-Factor. The "it". Some players have it and some players don't. Of the pitchers of his generation where does mussina fall in the answer to this question: "Who do you want to be the Ace of your staff?". For me moose isn't even a consideration for that question. So I don't see why he would be a consideration for the Hall.

[AlioTheFool]

Stats play an important part of whether or not a player gets in. A thing that really seals it for me is the X-Factor. The "it". Some players have it and some players don't. Of the pitchers of his generation where does mussina fall in the answer to this question: "Who do you want to be the Ace of your staff?". For me moose isn't even a consideration for that question. So I don't see why he would be a consideration for the Hall.

I agree with you. Had he pitched his whole career the way he has this year, then he would be automatic. However, given that while he has been an above average pitcher his whole career, he has been poor in big games. He doesn't have the "it" or at least didn't until recently, but it's a bit late for that now.

[AMJets]

I agree with you. Had he pitched his whole career the way he has this year, then he would be automatic. However, given that while he has been an above average pitcher his whole career, he has been poor in big games. He doesn't have the "it" or at least didn't until recently, but it's a bit late for that now.

Poor in big games? He's certainly had more good post-season games than poor, he's not 50/50 in the playoffs like Pettitte.

And as far as not getting "it" until recently (whatever that means), this isn't his best year with the Yankees. He's had two better years with the team.

[AlioTheFool]

Moose was bad in important games while in Baltimore. He always seemed to choke on pressure.

He just happened to be one of those guys who was made better by the pinstripes.

As far as having two better years, maybe stats-wise, but no way have his actual pitches been nastier. That knuckle-curve is absolutely awe-inspiring this year. I wish he would teach that pitch to all the Yankee pitchers. That is one of the nastiest offspeed pitches I have ever seen.

[Jetfanmack]

Moose was bad in important games while in Baltimore. He always seemed to choke on pressure.

He just happened to be one of those guys who was made better by the pinstripes.

As far as having two better years, maybe stats-wise, but no way have his actual pitches been nastier. That knuckle-curve is absolutely awe-inspiring this year. I wish he would teach that pitch to all the Yankee pitchers. That is one of the nastiest offspeed pitches I have ever seen.
Moose was good in the playoffs, but the thing is, sample size is so small for playoff starts that it's very difficult to say whether someone is clutch in the playoffs or not. Moose has been fine.

[AMJets]

Mussina's '96 post-season was a little shaky (although, I remember he only struggled against the Yankees because he ran out of gas in the 8th and Johnson waited too long to take him out), but in '97 he was as dominant as you can be for such a small sample size: 29 IP, 4 ER, 11 H, 7 BB, 41 K.

Also this year he's probably better than in 2003, but he was awesome in 2001, definitely his best year as a Yankee (statistically and the overall bite on his pitches). He should have had 20 wins easy that year, but received horrible run support. Clemens won the CY, and he wasn't even the best starter on his own team. Mussina or Garcia deserved it that year.